Hey, folks. Since there's been some discussion on test@ about possibly-missing features with the f18 newUI transition, I wanted to make sure we're all on the same page about what needs to be in for f18.
the two features QA was worried about missing are text mode installation, and the rescue mode that's present on the DVD/netinst images.
on text install: apparently it's now the plan that a basic text mode will be included in f18 and may even make Alpha. As long as that's a commitment then that should work out fine and is no longer a worry.
on rescue mode: we would like to see a roughly functional equivalent replacement for rescue mode present in f18, with considerable flexibility as to the exact form.
as far as I can tell, these are the major features of rescue mode:
1) bring up network 2) mount installed system partitions 3) provide rescue shell with binaries from installed system in $PATH
it also has a 'diagnostics' thing, but that seems somewhat obscure - it gives you a screen full of cryptic output when you run it, but that output almost all appears to come from some sort of mdraid analysis thingy. It doesn't seem to do much beyond that. Anyone have more details on the 'diagnostics' feature and how it's supposed to work?
Anyway, diagnostics aside, it shouldn't be too much effort to implement something that does 1, 2 and 3. One idea has been to make it as a module for dracut. wwoods suggested "personally what I'd want to do is use lorax and make a rescue runtime, or just add stuff to a rescue target in the normal anaconda runtime". I'm not making any suggestion for what method would be best - anything works so long as there's something =)
If anaconda team can commit to a rescue mode replacement for f18 final at least, that'd be great. thanks. Also, if anyone's aware of any other major functionality that might go away with newUI - besides what's already been discussed or called out on the feature page - please let us know. thanks!
On 07/30/2012 12:53 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
on text install: apparently it's now the plan that a basic text mode will be included in f18 and may even make Alpha. As long as that's a commitment then that should work out fine and is no longer a worry.
The commitment at this point is that "there may be a basic text mode available by Alpha and in F18". Keyword "may". I cannot make any commitment beyond that.
On Mon, 2012-07-30 at 12:53 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
on text install: apparently it's now the plan that a basic text mode will be included in f18 and may even make Alpha. As long as that's a commitment then that should work out fine and is no longer a worry.
I don't know that it is a commitment, but it would be awesome if the folks most concerned about text mode read Jesse's thread on the design of it and gave feedback *now* :)
~m
On Tue, 2012-07-31 at 11:15 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
On Mon, 2012-07-30 at 12:53 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
on text install: apparently it's now the plan that a basic text mode will be included in f18 and may even make Alpha. As long as that's a commitment then that should work out fine and is no longer a worry.
I don't know that it is a commitment, but it would be awesome if the folks most concerned about text mode read Jesse's thread on the design of it and gave feedback *now* :)
I'll post a pointer on test@. I think most people just want text mode to be present in some form, I'm not sure if they're terribly concerned about the design; the text mode from oldUI is already pretty rudimentary.
I'll post a pointer on test@. I think most people just want text mode to be present in some form, I'm not sure if they're terribly concerned about the design; the text mode from oldUI is already pretty rudimentary.
And we'd like to replace it with something well thought out, designed, and not crap - not just some new stop gap while we work on a better one yet again.
- Chris
on text install: apparently it's now the plan that a basic text mode will be included in f18 and may even make Alpha. As long as that's a commitment then that should work out fine and is no longer a worry.
The alpha change deadline is August 14, so I can't really see that happening. Even more critically, the string freeze deadline is the same day.
I'm not willing to commit to that, no matter how hard Martin and Jesse work. I just don't think there's enough time. I suppose beta is possible given it being a month later, but then people are just going to complain about major things being done after the feature freeze.
on rescue mode: we would like to see a roughly functional equivalent replacement for rescue mode present in f18, with considerable flexibility as to the exact form.
I don't think rescue mode is too difficult to do. We've just not worked on it, barely talked about it, and not put anyone on the task. It's not alpha criteria so I haven't been especially worried about it.
If anaconda team can commit to a rescue mode replacement for f18 final at least, that'd be great. thanks. Also, if anyone's aware of any other major functionality that might go away with newUI - besides what's already been discussed or called out on the feature page - please let us know. thanks!
Advanced storage filtering's not going to be there for F18 either.
- Chris
On 08/01/2012 03:01 PM, Chris Lumens wrote:
on text install: apparently it's now the plan that a basic text mode
will be included in f18 and may even make Alpha. As long as that's a commitment then that should work out fine and is no longer a worry.
The alpha change deadline is August 14, so I can't really see that happening. Even more critically, the string freeze deadline is the same day.
I'm not willing to commit to that, no matter how hard Martin and Jesse work. I just don't think there's enough time. I suppose beta is possible given it being a month later, but then people are just going to complain about major things being done after the feature freeze.
on rescue mode: we would like to see a roughly functional equivalent replacement for rescue mode present in f18, with considerable flexibility as to the exact form.
I don't think rescue mode is too difficult to do. We've just not worked on it, barely talked about it, and not put anyone on the task. It's not alpha criteria so I haven't been especially worried about it.
If anaconda team can commit to a rescue mode replacement for f18 final at least, that'd be great. thanks. Also, if anyone's aware of any other major functionality that might go away with newUI - besides what's already been discussed or called out on the feature page - please let us know. thanks!
Advanced storage filtering's not going to be there for F18 either.
Given the lack of text/rescue mode and other feature is it not best to delay the "newUI" anaconda til F19 and fallback on using F17's anaconda instead of presenting our user base with half finished product at best?
JBG
Given the lack of text/rescue mode and other feature is it not best to delay the "newUI" anaconda til F19 and fallback on using F17's anaconda instead of presenting our user base with half finished product at best?
The graphical UI is the main anaconda UI. VNC mode will still be available for people who cannot use graphical mode for some reason. The features we're not working on for F18 (text, advanced storage filtering) represent a very small portion of Fedora users, and we're going to have them back for F19. We are trying to take our time to do these things right instead of just rush them out. I think saying "half finished product at best" is disinginuous and inflammatory considering the amount of work we have put into the UI that most everyone uses.
The feature as-is has already been voted on and accepted for F18 based upon the knowledge that there wouldn't be any text mode. We have been very up front about that.
I think we can probably do rescue mode, we just need to look at it and it won't be for alpha.
If F17 anaconda is used for F18, it's not going to see any work at all besides the absolute minimum of bug fixing required to keep it limping along. We are not going to put any sigificant resources into a dead-end code base.
- Chris
On 08/01/2012 03:33 PM, Chris Lumens wrote:
Given the lack of text/rescue mode and other feature is it not best to delay the "newUI" anaconda til F19 and fallback on using F17's anaconda instead of presenting our user base with half finished product at best?
The graphical UI is the main anaconda UI. VNC mode will still be available for people who cannot use graphical mode for some reason. The features we're not working on for F18 (text, advanced storage filtering) represent a very small portion of Fedora users, and we're going to have them back for F19. We are trying to take our time to do these things right instead of just rush them out. I think saying "half finished product at best" is disinginuous and inflammatory considering the amount of work we have put into the UI that most everyone uses.
What's the rush as in why not wait another release cycle when Anaconda is better finished?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with delaying this for another release cycle.
The feature as-is has already been voted on and accepted for F18 based upon the knowledge that there wouldn't be any text mode. We have been very up front about that.
I'm not that worried about text mode personally thou other have shown it some concern on the test list.
Corporate administrators in real enterprise deployments use kickstart files for installments ( atleast here on top of the world ) so from my point of view I would understand if you guys wanted to reduce your codebase and kill it altogether.
I think we can probably do rescue mode, we just need to look at it and it won't be for alpha.
This however is something that worries me more.
If F17 anaconda is used for F18, it's not going to see any work at all besides the absolute minimum of bug fixing required to keep it limping along. We are not going to put any sigificant resources into a dead-end code base.
Nor did I expect you to do so.
JBG
On 08/01/2012 08:56 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
This however is something that worries me more.
One can get a basic shell to do things with by booting any boot media that uses dracut and use "rd.break" as a option. You'll get a shell before it switches to the runtime root, and from there you can play with your filesystems and do whatever you need to do.
Not the greatest, but we're not leaving people without options.
On Wed, 2012-08-01 at 15:56 +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
I think we can probably do rescue mode, we just need to look at it and it won't be for alpha.
This however is something that worries me more.
Can you explain in more detail your concerns about rescue mode? It might help the discussion. A key perspective on rescue mode is that it doesn't, in an ultimate analysis, _do_ very much: basically it brings up the network, mounts the installed system partitions, and gives you a shell. Simple dracut 'rd.break' mode gives you two out of three already (a rescue shell and the installed system partitions mounted). One angle there is that it should actually be fairly trivial to implement a newUI and/or dracut-based 'rescue mode' replacement, but another angle is that losing rescue mode isn't really all that terrible; it sounds impressive, but it really does comparatively little and there are all sorts of ways to essentially achieve the same thing (boot a live image, whether a Fedora one or a rescue-specific live image; boot to anaconda and use the VT it presents; use rd.break on the 'broken' installation...)
So it would help to direct the discussion if those who are worried about losing rescue mode define more precisely exactly what they feel we lose by dropping it. That'll help us in determining exactly what is needed to compensate for it.
On 08/01/2012 07:35 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
So it would help to direct the discussion if those who are worried about losing rescue mode define more precisely exactly what they feel we lose by dropping it. That'll help us in determining exactly what is needed to compensate for it.
Exactly that "dropping it" which results in users having to keep in handy an additional media if shit hits the fan
Now the exact thing that is needed ( for now ) to compensate my worries for alpha is a grub entry called "Rescue" or "Fedora Rescue" which contains "rd.break" without having the reporter to "know" that kernel parameter off hand but instead offers him a select-able entry so we can start gathering feedback from reporters in as painless manner as possible.
There are couple of issues that I'm aware of and will be discussing with Harald which I personally would like to see resolved before we use this as a replacement either altogether or until a noob friendly gui mode is implemented.
JBG
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:03 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" johannbg@gmail.com wrote:
There are couple of issues that I'm aware of and will be discussing with Harald which I personally would like to see resolved before we use this as a replacement either altogether or until a noob friendly gui mode is implemented.
There never *was* a n00b friendly mode for rescue. You've always had to know the secret incantation to put on the cmdline to boot anaconda. Speaking as a real, actual enterprise user, I've used anaconda rescue mode exactly.....ZERO times in the last year. If I have a system that for whatever reason won't boot, even in current RHEL, I find it *much* easier to just boot with init=/bin/bash and go about fixing things.
In newer Fedora, this becomes even easier with rd.break providing even more functionality. My personal view on rescue mode, even if it were to be completely absent from F18, would be "oh well".
$0.02 -Jon
On 08/02/2012 12:35 AM, Jon Stanley wrote:
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:03 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" johannbg@gmail.com wrote:
There are couple of issues that I'm aware of and will be discussing with Harald which I personally would like to see resolved before we use this as a replacement either altogether or until a noob friendly gui mode is implemented.
There never *was* a n00b friendly mode for rescue.
That just an utter and total bullshit as limited as it might be it still *lead* and *help* the users to setup their system for rescue.
You've always had to know the secret incantation to put on the cmdline to boot anaconda. Speaking as a real, actual enterprise user,
Are you claiming that I ain't an real actual enterprise user?
Care to share your difference between fake ones and real ones?
I've used anaconda rescue mode exactly.....ZERO times in the last year. If I have a system that for whatever reason won't boot, even in current RHEL, I find it *much* easier to just boot with init=/bin/bash and go about fixing things.
I know a lot of sysadmin that use it and have used it in the past year(s).
In newer Fedora, this becomes even easier with rd.break providing even more functionality.
Now what more functionality is that exactly that it provides?
My personal view on rescue mode, even if it were to be completely absent from F18, would be "oh well".
I'm oh well with "text mode" and you are oh well with "rescue mode" I guess our priorities differ.
JBG
On Thu, 2012-08-02 at 09:01 +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
On 08/02/2012 12:35 AM, Jon Stanley wrote:
You've always had to know the secret incantation to put on the cmdline to boot anaconda. Speaking as a real, actual enterprise user,
Are you claiming that I ain't an real actual enterprise user?
Care to share your difference between fake ones and real ones?
I'm pretty sure he was only talking about himself. There's no need to be offended.
On 08/02/2012 02:54 PM, Chris Lumens wrote:
That just an utter and total bullshit as limited as it might be it
still*lead* and*help* the users to setup their system for rescue.
Keep this kind of language off this list.
Do you prefer bullocks or nonsense so I can be sure to use the political correct term for either British or American English because I can say without a shadow of doubt what he was claiming there certainly was not true because on numerous occasions I have seen technology challenge people manage to stumple their way through it chroot into their partitions and clean up the disk after they accidentally had filled it up which by the way is probably one of if not the most use case scenario people are using Anaconda's rescue mode to do so claiming that in Anaconda "There never *was* a n00b friendly mode for rescue" is from pov and experience nonsense.
In any case note taken I'll try to be more subtle next time...
JBG
Do you prefer bullocks or nonsense so I can be sure to use the political correct term for either British or American English
I prefer you to make your point without resorting to cursing, personal attacks, or anything of the like. This list is not the ridiculous free-for-all that fedora-devel-list has become.
- Chris
On Wed, 2012-08-01 at 20:35 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote:
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:03 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" johannbg@gmail.com wrote:
There are couple of issues that I'm aware of and will be discussing with Harald which I personally would like to see resolved before we use this as a replacement either altogether or until a noob friendly gui mode is implemented.
There never *was* a n00b friendly mode for rescue. You've always had to know the secret incantation to put on the cmdline to boot anaconda.
No, you don't. It's an option in the boot menu on all the release images - DVD, netinst, and live.
On Aug 1, 2012, at 6:03 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote:
Now the exact thing that is needed ( for now ) to compensate my worries for alpha is a grub entry called "Rescue" or "Fedora Rescue" which contains "rd.break" without having the reporter to "know" that kernel parameter off hand but instead offers him a select-able entry so we can start gathering feedback from reporters in as painless manner as possible.
Re: GRUB. Presently the entry is 'recovery mode', which invokes the 'single' kernel param, which supposedly is the same as systemd's rescue.target. So recovery=single=rescue. Overwhelmingly that's a sufficient environment for fixing most problems users are likely to encounter, and thus isn't going away anytime soon.
As for adding Advanced menu items to the GRUB menu, I have less of a problem with additions than:
a.) The poor linguistic and practical distinction between recovery, rescue, single, and emergency modes or targets. That needs sorting out before there are more options in the Advanced menu. After reading the description of rescue.target and emergency.target, after 5 days I still forget the difference. It's sponge cake vs pound cake. Meaningless.
b.) The loss of anaconda's rescue mode. Seems pretty obscure, when an enterprise user says he hasn't used it in a year.
If an additional Advanced menu item were to be added, would it be based on systemd's emergency.target, or rd.break?
Chris Murphy
Hi,
Given the lack of text/rescue mode and other feature is it not best to delay the "newUI" anaconda til F19 and fallback on using F17's anaconda instead of presenting our user base with half finished product at best?
Not really. Let me explain:
Currently, rescue mode just starts networking, mounts whatever it finds and starts shell. Well we can probably include shell trigger "spoke" in the newui if "rescue" is present on the boot prompt. Network will be up by that time and all the tools will also be there.
Text mode in F17 was actually very limited and we might be able to use the new code to just let the user select the destination partition and create root password. But probably not before beta.
-- Martin Sivak Anaconda Brno
----- Original Message -----
On 08/01/2012 03:01 PM, Chris Lumens wrote:
on text install: apparently it's now the plan that a basic text mode
will be included in f18 and may even make Alpha. As long as that's a commitment then that should work out fine and is no longer a worry.
The alpha change deadline is August 14, so I can't really see that happening. Even more critically, the string freeze deadline is the same day.
I'm not willing to commit to that, no matter how hard Martin and Jesse work. I just don't think there's enough time. I suppose beta is possible given it being a month later, but then people are just going to complain about major things being done after the feature freeze.
on rescue mode: we would like to see a roughly functional equivalent replacement for rescue mode present in f18, with considerable flexibility as to the exact form.
I don't think rescue mode is too difficult to do. We've just not worked on it, barely talked about it, and not put anyone on the task. It's not alpha criteria so I haven't been especially worried about it.
If anaconda team can commit to a rescue mode replacement for f18 final at least, that'd be great. thanks. Also, if anyone's aware of any other major functionality that might go away with newUI - besides what's already been discussed or called out on the feature page - please let us know. thanks!
Advanced storage filtering's not going to be there for F18 either.
Given the lack of text/rescue mode and other feature is it not best to delay the "newUI" anaconda til F19 and fallback on using F17's anaconda instead of presenting our user base with half finished product at best?
JBG
Anaconda-devel-list mailing list Anaconda-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/anaconda-devel-list
On Wed, 2012-08-01 at 11:01 -0400, Chris Lumens wrote:
on text install: apparently it's now the plan that a basic text mode will be included in f18 and may even make Alpha. As long as that's a commitment then that should work out fine and is no longer a worry.
The alpha change deadline is August 14, so I can't really see that happening. Even more critically, the string freeze deadline is the same day.
I'm not willing to commit to that, no matter how hard Martin and Jesse work. I just don't think there's enough time. I suppose beta is possible given it being a month later, but then people are just going to complain about major things being done after the feature freeze.
To be clear, I'm mainly worried about it getting in for Final. I think we can live without it showing up at Alpha.
on rescue mode: we would like to see a roughly functional equivalent replacement for rescue mode present in f18, with considerable flexibility as to the exact form.
I don't think rescue mode is too difficult to do. We've just not worked on it, barely talked about it, and not put anyone on the task. It's not alpha criteria so I haven't been especially worried about it.
It's obviously most important to focus on stuff that's in the Alpha criteria for Alpha. To be clear, this thread is about the whole cycle, not just Alpha - obviously we'd like to have stuff in as early as possible as we can get more testing done that way, but the _main_ concern is not to be lacking too many features at Final.
If anaconda team can commit to a rescue mode replacement for f18 final at least, that'd be great. thanks. Also, if anyone's aware of any other major functionality that might go away with newUI - besides what's already been discussed or called out on the feature page - please let us know. thanks!
Advanced storage filtering's not going to be there for F18 either.
Yeah, I think that one was mentioned on the feature page, so it's been implicitly accepted by FESCo already...
I'm not willing to commit to that, no matter how hard Martin and Jesse work. I just don't think there's enough time. I suppose beta is possible given it being a month later, but then people are just going to complain about major things being done after the feature freeze.
To be clear, I'm mainly worried about it getting in for Final. I think we can live without it showing up at Alpha.
Well, you can rest easy now because it took all of a couple hours to fix up and I just pushed it. Note that I still think we need a nicer rescue mode than we've got right now (especially given that it still uses newt, which we are trying hard to wipe from the earth). But this should take care of most people's needs for now.
- Chris
anaconda-devel@lists.stg.fedoraproject.org