desktop August 2006

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25 participants
16 discussions

Re: Add/Remove Software Utility
by Rick Stuart 11 Aug '06

11 Aug '06

First, I will say that I did take another look at the package manager and yes it does list all installed and available apps from all my repos. The search tool works just like "yum list | grep [whatever]" which is nice. The 'Big List Button" generates a list that I could see might be imposing to a user, but if you have the viewpoint that users should not be installing software (I agree in a corporate environment) then who cares, right? Rahul Said: Generally users can install packages from groups which is provided as the primary interface or search and install any package they want. If they do want to list all the packages, then yes the choice might be intimidating to them. Do you have any suggestions to improve the user interface? I think the checks are a good way of showing what is installed. Not sure why there are two checks though. It is very straight forward to click on the apps to install. I would suggest putting a search box on the list window. I found that you can type the first few letters of the app in and it goes to that vicinity in the list which some people seem to like. A search box could also find key words in the description. Combining the search a list windows would make sense. You could do it like Thunderbird's "subject or Sender" search works. Type in a keyword and only items with that keyword show. Click the X and the entire list comes back in view. Next, I would like to know where the app listed is coming from. If I have a lot of repos set up, I might care. Also, I would like to know if there was more than one repo offering a particular RPM, but I never tried that with yum.... A new radio button that would sort by repo or source would be cool. At least showing the source in a column on the list would be useful. I like that in the list function in yum. Also, in keeping with other discussions about user privileges and software. Something we do with a tool called Marimba on the windows world is to provide a list of apps that the user can install with other available apps grayed out. To get access to the grayed out apps, they must make a request, but that way they can look to see if they exist on the YUM inventory. Any chance of sorting the apps by logical groups? Sort of like the package view, but with everything in the list. I have not seen anything in the yum outputs that could be used to do that, but wouldn't it be cool.

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Add/Remove Software Utility
by Rick Stuart 10 Aug '06

10 Aug '06

Original Post: Re: Fedora usability : a new project? This is not an issue for me after Rahul and David's guidance, but I did have a few minor comments. > > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:45:30 +0530 > From: Rahul <sundaram(a)redhat.com> > > >> Rick Stuart wrote: >> I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to >> users who are new to Linux. >> > > Why? It has a consistent command line interface and it is no worse than > any other command tool that I know of. > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/ > > > > Like I said, I like the CLI. The user community I work with, (corporately and around my neighborhood) does not do CLI. RTFM is not an answer for them. Package manager is nice, but then there is > > that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root > > so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does > > it even connect to YUM? > Yes, It uses yum. I am not seeing all the available packages I > > can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then > > why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say > > the U-word. > Click the big "List" button. First, I will say that I did take another look at the package manager and yes it does list all installed and available apps from all my repos. The search tool works just like "yum list | grep [whatever]" which is nice. The 'Big List Button" generates a list that I could see might be imposing to a user, but if you have the viewpoint that users should not be installing software (I agree in a corporate environment) then who cares, right? > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 09:27:23 +0200 > From: David Nielsen <david(a)lovesunix.net> > > > You should always provide some kind of authication when installing > programs globally, not doing so is inviting all kinds of security issues. > Agreed. If I have set a policy that this user can install software, then challenge him for his password, not Root's and, for the corporate controls, log the activity. > The software manager doesn't seem slow to me, however the UI locks up > due to it not being threaded - Katz' has strong arguments against adding > that kind of complexity to the code. I think we might need to make him > compromise a bit to make the UI not appear like it died - users tend to not > like that behavior, myself included. > > Ubuntu has the basically same setup was we do. > > - David Nielsen > All told, after looking at it again, I have no problem with pointing users at the package manger except that I REALLY don't want them using the root password. Perhaps when PolicyKit can help there, but I think the user should be challenged for his password rather than just get in to package manager. It is slow, but I compared it to Windows' Add/Remove and it is really no worse.

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Execute as Root GUI Admin Interfaces
by Rick Stuart 10 Aug '06

10 Aug '06

Originally: Re: Fedora usability : a new project? (Rick Stuart) > From: Rahul <sundaram(a)redhat.com> > > > Rick Stuart wrote: > >> I welcome this idea! I have asked many folks about what they like and >> dis like about Linux and I only get prejudiced statements. If you sit >> someone ( a familiar and comfortable user of Windows) in front of your >> pride and joy 64-bit Fedora Core 5 install and invite them to try it >> out, they will fail to see any value. If you help them find their way >> to stuff, they will certainly hit a brick wall that you have to fix by >> opening a terminal window, and then it's all over. >> >> Here are a couple of suggestions: >> >> Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that >> they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of >> ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a >> good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like >> /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. >> > > That isnt really a good model. > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-July/msg00814.htm > > From: David Nielsen <david(a)lovesunix.net> > > > > PolicyKit should provide this functionality the right way. I don't know > if we have an ETA on this being useful but I would rather wait for a > proper fix than use priviliage escalation that can introduce problems > like horrid security . having to audit half a million lines of GTK+ code > because it now runs as root and any slight bug could take down the > system is my very definition of not funny. > > PolicyKit looks interesting based on the discussions Rahul included. Correct me if I got it wrong, but would PolicyKit allow an administrator to set people up so they can do certain things as administrators (like mounting a disk) ? It looked like the user gets no challenge for authorization if they are set up to be able to do that. I actually think that is a problem. I think that when someone is executing with root privileges, they should be aware of it and consider whether they meant to do that. That is why I suggested a [SUDO]consolehelper. I am assuming that Rahul was referring to that as being a bad model. I agree that giving everyone this ability like UBUNTU does it is a problem. However, I do not agree that setting policies for a user and not reminding him/her what their action implies is any better. In our corporate Windows world, we can set domain policies and local policies that give people more administrative rights. We then invest much more support time trying to unravel what they accidentally did because they had elevated privileges and got no warnings when they mis-stepped. Our Linux desktops have very few such problems even though we have a fairly large number of "sudoers" who can do root level tasks, but have to do so intentionally. These sudoers don't need or want the root password, but they can do their jobs without problems as long as they know the CLI commands to do it. We have started reducing Windows users default admin rights and force them to intentionally (and temporarily) elevate themselves to do admin tasks. The biggest problem is the fact that they have to log out and in to get the elevated rights on Windows. Note also that MicroSoft has started popping up a lot more warnings asking people if they REALLY want to install the Trojan binary. People hate it, but what can you do? I realize this may fit better in a security discussion, but I consider it a basic usability issue so I am throwing it out here. Thanks, Rick

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Re: Fedora usability : a new project?
by Rick Stuart 10 Aug '06

10 Aug '06

Okay, I'll submit a new thread for each of the comments I made to see if I can clarify my reasons for SHOUTING. Perhaps I need to ask for clarification on the proposed perspective. Are we talking about home PeeCee users or corporate? I deal with the dichotomy of Windows-vs-Linux in both environments, so I would be most interested in seeing how this goes. I personally don't care about most of the GUI, (except the SCREENSAVER...;-), but it seems to be the way most people will expect to approach administering their system. In a corporate environment, you can get away with doing most of that for them.....except when they pick up their laptop and get on a plane for Jakarta. Then we have a problem. CLI seems simple enough unless you are telling someone to "cee dee to slash ee tee cee slash ess why ess cee oh in eff eye gee" over a bad connection. We try to think ahead to address what they might encounter, but there is always something. Obviously, we need to spend more time using the GUI tools so we can see how they work and what needs to be done with them because the blank stares (or the silence and then a sigh) I get when I say "Click on Applications/Accessories/Terminal...". Thanks, Rick fedora-desktop-list-request(a)redhat.com wrote: > Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to > fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > fedora-desktop-list-request(a)redhat.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > fedora-desktop-list-owner(a)redhat.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Fedora usability : a new project? (Rick Stuart) > 2. Re: Fedora usability : a new project? (Rahul) > 3. Re: Fedora usability : a new project? (David Nielsen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:16:24 -0500 > From: Rick Stuart <stuart.cr(a)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Fedora usability : a new project? > To: fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com > Message-ID: <44D90D38.5050701(a)gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I welcome this idea! I have asked many folks about what they like and > dis like about Linux and I only get prejudiced statements. If you sit > someone ( a familiar and comfortable user of Windows) in front of your > pride and joy 64-bit Fedora Core 5 install and invite them to try it > out, they will fail to see any value. If you help them find their way > to stuff, they will certainly hit a brick wall that you have to fix by > opening a terminal window, and then it's all over. > > Here are a couple of suggestions: > > Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that > they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of > ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a > good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like > /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. > > I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to > users who are new to Linux. Package manager is nice, but then there is > that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root > so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does > it even connect to YUM? I am not seeing all the available packages I > can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then > why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say > the U-word. > > Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not > any better.... > > FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like > KDE's....It USED to be! > > Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that > down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT > ready for them. > > That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and > I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash. > Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being > evolution. Thunderbird! > > Rick Stuart > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:45:30 +0530 > From: Rahul <sundaram(a)redhat.com> > Subject: Re: Fedora usability : a new project? > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> > Message-ID: <44D97D82.4060304(a)redhat.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Rick Stuart wrote: > >> I welcome this idea! I have asked many folks about what they like and >> dis like about Linux and I only get prejudiced statements. If you sit >> someone ( a familiar and comfortable user of Windows) in front of your >> pride and joy 64-bit Fedora Core 5 install and invite them to try it >> out, they will fail to see any value. If you help them find their way >> to stuff, they will certainly hit a brick wall that you have to fix by >> opening a terminal window, and then it's all over. >> >> Here are a couple of suggestions: >> >> Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that >> they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of >> ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a >> good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like >> /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. >> > > > That isnt really a good model. > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-July/msg00814.html > > >> I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to >> users who are new to Linux. >> > > Why? It has a consistent command line interface and it is no worse than > any other command tool that I know of. > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/ > > > Package manager is nice, but then there is > >> that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root >> so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does >> it even connect to YUM? >> > > Yes, It uses yum. > > > I am not seeing all the available packages I > >> can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then >> why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say >> the U-word. >> > > Click the big "List" button. > > >> Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not >> any better.... >> > > We have about a dozen in core and many more in extras. I think thats > plenty of choice apart from the easily installable themes from > art.gnome.org and kde-look.org > > > >> FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like >> KDE's....It USED to be! >> > > It never was. Xscreensavers was that way but it isnt in core anymore. > There is a upstream discussion on adding this feature to the new GNOME > screensaver program. > > > >> Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that >> down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT >> ready for them. >> > > Use Network Manager. It is not enabled by default yet till we get a few > features fixed. > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-August/msg00081.html > > > >> That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and >> I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash. >> Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being >> evolution. Thunderbird! >> > > Wont work. We need well integrated calendering functionality, Exchange > interoperability etc and ThunderBird extensions are not very mature yet. > > Rahul > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 09:27:23 +0200 > From: David Nielsen <david(a)lovesunix.net> > Subject: Re: Fedora usability : a new project? > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> > Message-ID: <1155108443.2872.38.camel@price> > Content-Type: text/plain > > tir, 08 08 2006 kl. 17:16 -0500, skrev Rick Stuart > >> Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that >> they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of >> ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a >> good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like >> /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. >> > > PolicyKit should provide this functionality the right way. I don't know > if we have an ETA on this being useful but I would rather wait for a > proper fix than use priviliage escalation that can introduce problems > like horrid security . having to audit half a million lines of GTK+ code > because it now runs as root and any slight bug could take down the > system is my very definition of not funny. > > >> I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to >> users who are new to Linux. Package manager is nice, but then there is >> that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root >> so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does >> it even connect to YUM? I am not seeing all the available packages I >> can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then >> why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say >> the U-word. >> > > You should always provide some kind of authication when installing > programs globally, not doing so is inviting all kinds of security issues. > The software manager doesn't seem slow to me, however the UI locks up > due to it not being threaded - Katz' has strong arguments against adding > that kind of complexity to the code. I think we might need to make him > compromise a bit to make the UI not appear like it died - users tend to not > like that behavior, myself included. > > Ubuntu has the basically same setup was we do. > > >> Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not >> any better.... >> > > You should join the artwork team and point out specific things that would > add to your enjoyment of Fedora, just saying "make it better" isn't really > helpful. What are the specfic issues you have and do you have ideas to > investigate. > > If you can provide a mockup it would be great if not, a lenghty explanation > and maybe referencing parts of designs on gnome-look you do like would help > us get to a default theme that was good looking while still retaining good > usability across the board. > > >> FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like >> KDE's....It USED to be! >> > > No it didn't, we used to use xscreensaver which had all kinds of other > problems, gnome-screensaver restored some sanity. If you want additional > features to gnome-screensaver upstream is the place to do it. I personally > fail to see why this is so huge an issue that you feel the need to scream. > > If you have a specific thing that no longer works or could be improve please > provide a better description of your issue than "fix it". It is not very > helpful for either one of us. It is also not likely to get your issue the > attention it deserves. > > >> Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that >> down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT >> ready for them. >> > > I think the solution here is Network-Manager, it is however not entirely > ready for rollout. SuSE and SLED have replaced their entire networking > system with it and it seems to work beautifully for them. This is being > worked on heavily - have no fear. It will not make FC6 as the default > but FC7 seems like the obvious place for it to be deployed - being a major > change it needs a metric shitload of testing so it needs to be deployed > early in the test cycle. > > >> That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and >> I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash. >> Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being >> evolution. Thunderbird! >> > > Thunderbird isn't a suitable replacement for Evolution, we can't provide > the same functionality like Exchange integration with it. Also it doesn't > integrate as well with the underlying system as Evolution does. Another issue > to consider is migration of existing accounts to Thunderbird which isn't > working right as I recall. > > The proper solution would be to fix Evolution, maybe break it into seperate > applications so it would be easier to fix or replace in the future with > better options. Evolution sadly isn't going anywhere anytime soon. > > - David Nielsen > > > > ------------------------------ > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > End of Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 30, Issue 2 > ************************************************** > >

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Re: Fedora usability : a new project?
by Rick Stuart 09 Aug '06

09 Aug '06

I welcome this idea! I have asked many folks about what they like and dis like about Linux and I only get prejudiced statements. If you sit someone ( a familiar and comfortable user of Windows) in front of your pride and joy 64-bit Fedora Core 5 install and invite them to try it out, they will fail to see any value. If you help them find their way to stuff, they will certainly hit a brick wall that you have to fix by opening a terminal window, and then it's all over. Here are a couple of suggestions: Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to users who are new to Linux. Package manager is nice, but then there is that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does it even connect to YUM? I am not seeing all the available packages I can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say the U-word. Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not any better.... FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like KDE's....It USED to be! Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT ready for them. That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash. Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being evolution. Thunderbird! Rick Stuart

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Fedora usability : a new project?
by Damien Durand 06 Aug '06

06 Aug '06

Hello everyone, Fedora usability was born but it's not official yet;-) : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability What's fedora Usability? The Fedora Usability project aims to provide coherence, accessibility and intuivity for all people using Fedora Core and its associated resources. Fedora must be easy and making things simple and coherent for a pleasant use is my objectif with this project. I need feedback, if you're interested to contribute feel free to add your name in the usability group : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability/UsabilityGroup Once this project completed and approved by you, I'll move the wiki pages and will send an official announce ;-) Thanks in advance Damien Durand

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desktop August 2006