desktop August 2007

desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org

57 participants
21 discussions

Re: Idea: easier transition for newcomers from other DEs/OSes
by Martin Sourada 24 Aug '07

24 Aug '07

On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 21:28 +0200, Christopher Brown wrote: > On 24/08/07, Adam Jackson <ajackson(a)redhat.com> wrote: > On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 19:15 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote: > > Hi, > > > > It's all about picking default settings new users wish. > Imagine a user > > who is coming from Windows to Fedora, but he has no clue how > linux > > works. It would greatly help him if the linux behaved to > some extent > > similar to Windows - meaning applications look (themes), > window's > > buttons layout (in this case same), menu layout, keyboard > shortcuts etc. > > The same for users coming from Mac OS and for users used to > Gnome and > > switching to KDE and opposite way. The idea is that user > selects what he > > wants his desktop resemble, and then the usage of the > desktop would be > > more intuitive to him. > > Bzzt, logical fallacy. Read about the uncanny valley, then > apply that > lesson to your argument. Point for point emulation is not > just > technically infeasible, it's also a really really bad idea. > > I agree. As an aside, I found the uncanny valley article on wikipedia > fascinating. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_Valley > > if you're interested. However much you skin over GNOME or KDE to make > them look like inferior OS's with greater market penetration, it > really is pretty pointless. This creates restrictions on UI design and > people waste time developing like-for-like applications simply in > order to mimic The Control Panel or My Network Places. > System>Administration or Places>Network is faster and simpler and > after is easily picked up. I have yet to introduce anyone to GNOME and > they have failed to grasp the new layout - quite the reverse - the > simplicity is often seen as a key benefit. > > Cheers > Chris > -- > http://www.chruz.com > -- Ok, I had a sneaky feeling that it is against the philosophy, but wanted to mention it nevertheless. I wasn't talking about emulation (even though it might look so), I was talking about making the process of transitioning to other system easier. I use gnome, I like almost everything about it, but I am not the target audience here. Let's say it this way, comparing KDE and GNOME. You are happy GNOME user but want to try KDE, for whatever reason, so you'd actually like it to behave like you are used to (to certain extent). Like having two panels, three menus, similar looking widget set, same keyboard shortcuts. Nothing more, the applications would still be KDE, the kontrol center still be from KDE, etc. More generally I am talking about a utility that could ease the job of doing this. You can set pretty much in today's gnome or kde to be it more friendly to users used to something different, but it'll still be KDE and GNOME. I'd like those users to have easy utility, to ease their start - i.e. to set for them the basic things, so that they will both learn new behaviour, but also use some of the already learnt. It would be maybe even more appreciated by dual booters... And I was talking about CHOICE. If user wants why not help him. If he wants to try GNOME with all its defaults, let him do that as well. But anyway, you seem to be against that, so I will not pursue it further. It is probably a bad idea (and after reading the wikipedia article about the uncanny valley it seems even worse than that)... Martin

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Re: Round 3 Default Artwork Decision
by Nicolas Mailhot 23 Aug '07

23 Aug '07

Le mercredi 22 août 2007 à 15:49 -0400, Máirín Duffy a écrit : > It still needs: > > - CD boot menu > - firstboot banner & splash (could reuse anaconda splash) > - Normal boot menu background (grub) > - RHGB theme > - GDM theme (we can do a graphical greeter if we provide the theme so i > can write it) > - if we need splashes for gnome and KDE, the anaconda splash design > should work well with minor modifications Please check with the desktop group, I think at least some of those won't be needed by the new F8 boot process -- Nicolas Mailhot

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notes from the aug 22nd 2007 fedora desktop sig meeting
by Christopher Blizzard 23 Aug '07

23 Aug '07

Raw notes. Page lives here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Desktop/Meeting-20070822 Please add yourself if you were there and add yourself to the main desktop page (which is not complete yet) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop = 2007 Aug 22 Desktop Meeting = == Present == * Chris Aillon * David Zeuthen * Christopher Blizzard * Ray Strode * Jesse Keating * Colin Walters * others (?) === Agenda === None posted. === Action Items === * Blizzard to add scope + goals to SIG in the wiki * Blizzard to clean up SIG and Desktop pages * David Zeuthen to clarify action items * Adam Jackson / Chris Aillon to finish bootchart package process + review * Colin Walters to work with David Zeuthen on clarifying the package set for the desktop spin and pushing into the livecd-creation repo === Previous Week's Action Items === * Adam was supposed to package up boot chart * In Progress - has packages and they are in review. Chris Aillon is reviewing. * David Zeuthen was supposed to work on the clock applet that changes time zones * In Progress * Blizzard was supposed to clean up the web pages and add scope + decision making to the SIG page * In Progress === Desktop page vs SIG Page === * Blizzard created the top level Desktop page in an attempt to make sure that things weren't buried * Confusing since we have shared information between the two * Need to consolidate and clarify that the Desktop page is the what and the SIG page is the who * Up to Blizzard to fix. === Where to send patches and changes? === * Avoid process, mailing list isn't an approval process * Just inform the mailing list if you can * Note that this project is for the "Fedora Desktop spin" which is not the normal Fedora spin. More freedom to make changes and set reasonable desktop defaults. Different than Fedora for servers. * Main get-fedora page will have to emphasize this * Probably won't include package forks but is mostly setting reasonable defaults * Will have to work with package maintainers to make sure that those defaults are at least available * Examples: * PolicyKit and sudo style activation of system services (no root password) * NetworkManager by default * Lots of fear of divergence but needs to balance with ability to take risks and experiment * Probably a lot of changes that we need for Fedora as a whole at some point * Will work with the board if we need package divergence and work through any possible trademark or project issues === Workflow model === * Walters: want to move away from small fiefdom model * Example: things that require a lot of changes all the way across the distribution like sudo style access require lots of small changes to a lot of packages so we can't just work in silos * Use a post with a patch for changes instead of just going through single bugs + owners * Want to avoid forking wherever possible * Try do do things in the post-install stage with defaults instead * Main points: encourage experimentation and move quickly? * David Zeuthen: Main point is to have defaults that are good for desktop that might not work well on servers * Walters: Main point is to make sure that the desktop folks are in control of the experience * Don't worry about package forking, if we have to worry about that we'll work with the board and others on that topic later === Last Week's Action Items === * David Zeuthen still working on time zone applet * Adam Jackson has packaged boot camp, Chris Aillon is reviewing (lots of discussion of details) * Blizzard did some work but not on goals + scope === Comps Location for Desktop Spin === * Desktop spin lives in the livecd-tools git repo right now * co-owned by David Zeuthen and Colin Walters * They will discuss what changes they want to make on the mailing list * "Low hanging fruit" thread was supposed to be the start of the changes but it got out of control pretty quickly * Jesse points out that there's only one week to feature freeze :) === Responsibility of fixes/changes in Desktop vs. Regular Spin? === * How do we track the difference? Something in /etc/fedora-release or /etc/fedora-spin? * Hard to diverge due to crappy tool set * Can't tell where bug reports come from * Lots and lots of discussion (ask the user, detect in bugzilla, write to a file, etc) * Have to move this to next week if that's possible === Big Root Password Discussion === * extra password that's not needed on a desktop system * want to move to a policykit based solution * discussion of sudo + policykit system would work === Next Week === * Follow up on action items * From Jesse: How to get rid of firstboot screens?

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Reminder: Desktop SIG meeting today 2pm EDT (1800 UTC)
by Christopher Aillon 22 Aug '07

22 Aug '07

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Desktop This is approximately 33 minutes from now.

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Meet the desktop team
by Matthias Clasen 16 Aug '07

16 Aug '07

There have been some discussions on fedora-desktop-list recently about making the desktop livecd spin a better desktop. We (the RH desktop team) would like to take this on, by taking "editorial control" of the desktop livecd spin, and transforming it into an awesome desktop. We'd like to start holding regular public irc meetings -- "meet the desktop team", if you want. The official form in which this happens in Fedora is in a SIG, so we will form a "Desktop SIG" and invite interested members of the Fedora community to work with us on making the Fedora desktop spin the best desktop in its class. The first meeting is going to take place in the #fedora-meeting irc channel on Freenode, Wednesday, 18:00-19:00 UTC (2pm-3pm EDT) (see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate#IRC) Proposed agenda for the first meeting: - Organizational questions - Goals and scope of the Desktop SIG - Concrete plans for the F8 desktop spin - Longer-term plans We have put our ideas for second agenda item up at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Desktop Hope to see you tomorrow, Matthias

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speech recognition for simple commands
by Marius Andreiana 15 Aug '07

15 Aug '07

Hi, Are there any plans on including speech recognition in Fedora? (using sphinx4 and at-spi maybe) I'm looking only to simple commands translation (click, page up, close window...), not full speech recognition. Thanks, -- Marius Andreiana

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Re: pam, nm, pa (WAS: Meet the desktop team)
by Matthias Clasen 15 Aug '07

15 Aug '07

On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 23:50 +0200, Linus Walleij wrote: > On Wed, 15 Aug 2007, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > > Meeting notes are up now > > Great! I only read those concrete things: > > # kill xfs > # kill pam console > # nm by default > # pa by default > > The first one I understand, not the three later ones, and they need > discussion on fedora-devel-list I believe, so could you elaborate or refer > to mail threads on the desktop list? Sorry for being too terse here. The three you ask about are explained in more detail in the wiki: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureRemovePAMConsole http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureNetworkManager http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio All three are on the feature list for F8 and being worked on or already done.

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Tracker by default in Fedora 8?
by Rahul Sundaram 15 Aug '07

15 Aug '07

Hi While Tracker has always been faster than Beagle and without the memory leaks, previous versions were lacking in features. Tracker 0.6 (http://jamiemcc.livejournal.com/8837.html) has a number of improvements making it more or less reached feature parity with Beagle which we dropped out by default in Fedora 7. Tracker is also going to be the default in the next version of Ubuntu. What do folks think about installing and enabling Tracker by default in Fedora 8? Rahul

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f8 desktop livecd
by Colin Walters 14 Aug '07

14 Aug '07

Hi, Some people may not know that in Fedora 7, there was a difference between the DVD and the Live CD. What happened is (as far as I understand it) David Zeuthen took a look at things, and exercised a bit of editorial control by using the kickstart file - ship NetworkManager enabled by default, for example. This is exactly what Fedora as a desktop needs; a place for people who care about the experience as a desktop to do those quick fixes that may be hard to change in the Fedora base. So, following a quick huddle with a few people from the Red Hat desktop team, we decided to make this LiveCD kickstart file a bit more of a project. Actually, the project already exists: http://git.fedoraproject.org/?p=hosted/livecd;a=summary So this mail is just to say that this project exists (and I know a lot of people didn't know about the difference), and will move forward. For Fedora 8, it would make sense to more prominently distinguish this version as the Desktop version. Ideally of course, this project will be minimal - for example, the work to make NetworkManager usable on servers makes sense, and should continue.

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How friendly are the configuration tools to end users?
by Martin Jürgens 10 Aug '07

10 Aug '07

Hi! Linux and especially Fedora is more and more used as a desktop operating system for end users. This creates new conditions how Fedora should look like. On the one hand, there are administrators, which want to have powerful GUI configuration applications. On the other hand, there is a new aspect, the end user. He probably does not know what IPv6 and other things are and just wants to configure a printer or network or the yum frontend. All in one, system administrators have other exceptations than end users. I am of the opinion that we somehow have to make both groups happy or make end users more happy without bothering system administrators. One way is to create seperate configuration tools for both groups, but I do not like that (SuSE does it slightly like that: YaST for administrators, the GNOME configuration tools for end users). An other, easy possibility would be to hide advanced configuration options behind a button "advanced". I know that this is not very specified yet, but maybe we can discuss about the problem and possible solutions. What do you think? Martin

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desktop August 2007