desktop November 2009

desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org

42 participants
28 discussions

PolicyKit configuration questions
by Adam Williamson 18 Nov '09

18 Nov '09

Hi, guys. I was just talking to some Mandriva users about PolicyKit, and it's prompted some questions for me. Prior to F12, there was a GUI policy editor for PolicyKit, which let you change the default policies for any PolicyKit-handled operation, any way you wanted to. This grants an awful lot of flexibility in terms of controlling exactly how privileges are granted for PK-managed operations, which as I understand it is part of the point of PK. In F12, the GUI policy editor was killed, with this rather cryptic note in the feature page: "The policy editor under System → Preferences → Authorizations is going to go away. It is a really problematic interface, and not really needed for normal users. Instead we want to add a simple group-based UI to a future user account dialog, that will let you declare that a user is an 'Administrator' or a 'Guest'. PolicyKit 1.0 includes all the infrastructure for this." Now, I can see why it is in some ways a bad UI. For a regular user, the fact that privilege escalation for some processes is handled by PolicyKit is an implementation detail they shouldn't have to care about. In as far as they may need to adjust PK policies at all, it should just be part of the regular desktop interface - the workflow should be 'configuring disk access preferences', or something, not 'configuring PolicyKit'. However, what we have now is a big hole where functionality used to be, and the short feature page note doesn't really cover it. Just being able to define users as administrators or guests is nowhere close to the full flexibility made available by PolicyKit. So I was just wondering, for my own edification: what's the plans for integrating appropriate levels of policy configuration into GNOME configuration paths in the future? And also, is there a coherent plan for exposing the full power of PolicyKit configuration to those for whom it would be useful, like administrators of true multi-user systems? As far as I can see there's no easily available public reference for the Grand Plan for the future here, so far as configuring PK is concerned. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net

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Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience
by Jason D. Clinton 18 Nov '09

18 Nov '09

The other half of the email I sent a moment ago: --- Again, just some observations; overall, the experience is wonderful. First boot: no problems; looks great. Maybe should offer to auto-login new user. GDM: for my encrypted harddrive use-case: I just entered my password to unlock the HDD, why do I have to enter it again to log in? Fonts: LCD panel wasn't detected for sub-pixel rendering; fonts are blurry by default. Overall font quality is poor in contrast to default install of competitors' distros. Nit-pick: bash-completion isn't installed by default. Printing: Preferences > Default Printer and Administration > Printing is confusing. Perhaps renaming Preferences to User Settings and Administration to Administrator Settings would clarify. Video codecs: no offer or mention of RPMfusion in contrast to competitors' distros. (fails the apple.com/trailers test) Flash: Not offered to install in contrast to competitors' distros. (Only tried 64-bit Ubuntu as comparison here.)

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Fedora 12 Installer Experience
by Jason D. Clinton 18 Nov '09

18 Nov '09

Originally sent this to mccann for private review but jrb and halfline asked that I send it here. I don't mean to offend anyone; mccann asked that I document my experience -- I'm coming from Debian Sid/Exp. so I don't have a horse the desktop race. --- I'm writing this from my phone while I wait for the install to finish. I will send another mail documenting first boot experience. The notes are with a newbie in-mind and only the notable hang-ups; the experience is, overall, good. Pre-install: no reason given for a media test and no time estimate before agreeing. Install: Storage probe > existing encrypted drive found: no offer to skip unlock. Use of OK/Cancel dialog buttons. Set hostname: no indication that using the same suffix like "localdomain" might be a good thing. Happily allows suffixless. Map/TZ widget: doesn't fill dialog size. Root password: no offer for sudo setup Partitioner: no indication that LVM and RAID buttons are for new only. "Hide LVM/RAID" doesn't work. Boot loader: no explanation of what a boot loader is. Use of sdx block names (some discoverability in Change Dev. dialog) Repos/software: no indication that offered additional repos. are remote or explanation why you would enable them. No progress on metadata fetch. Why would any Windows user not enable the Updates here? Is that safe/fast? Starting Install: long wait with no estimate.

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libatk-bridge.so crashes on XIOError
by Owen Taylor 16 Nov '09

16 Nov '09

I just went through the ABRT filed backtraces for metacity and found at least 7 related to the GTK+ module libatk-bridge.so adding an atexit() handler that calls XCloseDisplay(). This tends to cause nasty chains of: X server dies XIOErrorHandler is called (installed by GTK+/metacity) Calls exit() Calls libatk-bridge.so's atexit() handler Calls XCloseDisplay() XIOErrorHandler is called And things get messed up with the reentrancy and the process segfaults or aborts. I think metacity may be particularly vulnerable to this crash, but at least two of the crashes I saw were *not* Metacity but filed against Metacity because of the problems that older versions of ABRT had with confusing processes. So, you may have some of these in your modules as well - if you see a backtrace that has frames in it like: #4 0x00007f95bd2bd41e in _XIOError (dpy=0x12a6960) at XlibInt.c:3138 [...] #8 0x00007f95bd297c60 in XCloseDisplay (dpy=0x12a6960) at ClDisplay.c:67 ext = <value optimized out> i = 1 #9 0x00007f95b38beda8 in ?? () from /usr/lib64/gtk-2.0/modules/libatk-bridge.so Then you can dup it on: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=537843 - Owen

1 0

default fonts in Firefox for Fedora look very bad
by Marius Andreiana 12 Nov '09

12 Nov '09

Hi, Could anyone with graphic design experience offer more details on this bug? https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523487 Google confirms it's not just my impression. Thanks, -- Marius Andreiana

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Network Printing + Firewall..
by "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" 11 Nov '09

11 Nov '09

Greetings... Any reason why scanning the network for printers is blocked in firewall on the desktop live cd after install ( tested with 09/11/09 i686 iso) or is this something we missed? JBG

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Re: on Hristo Petkov proposal
by onkar mirajkar 11 Nov '09

11 Nov '09

Hi, I went to one step ahead. I have a usb modem which i can carry to anywhere. It has memory slot (micro SD)in it. I made it as live USB from USB creator. But unfortunately i am not able to boot. My plan was make it as live usb and then connect to data center by creating VPN.So that i can store my data permanently, Also make usb of cloud computing to give various software as service(SaaS). Thanks, Onkar 2009/11/7 Hristo Petkov <vaeood(a)yahoo.com> > Hi Guys, > I have a proposal. In my view this DVD is too complex to be made universal > for various types of machines. Suppose the good old Live CD is furnished > with a reference to the Fedora Project website and there to be installed an > expert system advising the users depending on their machine, their periphery > and their application goals what to install what is better to install > instead of what and what is not entirely advisable to be installed. How to > make a full-featured high-speed desktop from ground zero (from the live CD > on formatted HD) in a couple of hours, etc. > Things like that. > Just a proposal. > Best regards > Christo Petkov > > > --- On *Fri, 11/6/09, fedora-desktop-list-request(a)redhat.com < > fedora-desktop-list-request(a)redhat.com>* wrote: > > > From: fedora-desktop-list-request(a)redhat.com < > fedora-desktop-list-request(a)redhat.com> > Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 5 > To: fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com > Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 12:40 PM > > Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to > fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > fedora-desktop-list-request(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list-request@redhat.com> > > You can reach the person managing the list at > fedora-desktop-list-owner(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list-owner@redhat..com> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) > 2. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Bill Nottingham) > 3. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) > 4. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Adam Williamson) > 5. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Matthias Clasen) > 6. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (drago01) > 7. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) > 8. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Seth Vidal) > 9. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Lars Herrmann) > 10. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Bill Nottingham) > 11. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (drago01) > 12. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) > 13. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Seth Vidal) > 14. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Lars Herrmann) > 15. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Matthias Clasen) > 16. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Paul W. Frields) > 17. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Nicu Buculei) > 18. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (onkar mirajkar) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:20:13 -0500 > From: David Zeuthen <davidz(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=davidz@redhat.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org<http://mc/compose?to=sundaram@fedoraproject.org>, > Discussions about development for the > Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <1257445213.15710.18.camel(a)localhost.localdomain<http://mc/compose?to=1257445213.15710.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > The image size is 1022 M. > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > 1,000,000,000 - e.g.. the SI units. > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > It would probably be helpful to do a quick study of actual sizes of 1GB > USB sticks - we may end up wanting to do a 990 MB (990,000,000,000 > bytes) image or something so the image works on as many USB sticks as > possible. > > David > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:24:54 -0500 > From: Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=notting@redhat.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <20091105182453.GA16392(a)nostromo.devel.redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=20091105182453.GA16392@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > David Zeuthen (davidz(a)redhat.com <http://mc/compose?to=davidz@redhat.com>) > said: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > have for any overlay. > > Bill > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:35:26 -0500 > From: David Zeuthen <davidz(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=davidz@redhat.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <1257446126.15710.30.camel(a)localhost.localdomain<http://mc/compose?to=1257446126.15710.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > David Zeuthen (davidz(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=davidz@redhat.com>) > said: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > have for any overlay. > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > the overlay. > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. > > David > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:55:01 -0800 > From: Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=awilliam@redhat.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat..com> > > > Message-ID: <1257450902.2316.11.camel(a)adam.local.net<http://mc/compose?to=1257450902.2316.11.camel@adam.local.net> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:35 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > David Zeuthen (davidz(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=davidz@redhat.com>) > said: > > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G > = > > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some > may > > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") > while > > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > > have for any overlay. > > > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > > the overlay. > > > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. > > Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it > creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in > a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is > starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about > including useless crap. > > And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but > bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with > absurd caps like 10GB/month? > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > image 2GB big'. > > -- > Adam Williamson > Fedora QA Community Monkey > IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org > http://www.happyassassin.net > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:56:42 -0500 > From: Matthias Clasen <mclasen(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=mclasen@redhat.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <1257451002.1875.2.camel@planemask> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > image 2GB big'. > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:05:30 +0100 > From: drago01 <drago01(a)gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=drago01@gmail.com>> > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: > <f6ca9fed0911051205i453be449jeb0ec9090c756505(a)mail.gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=f6ca9fed0911051205i453be449jeb0ec9090c756505@mail.gmai…> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Matthias Clasen <mclasen(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=mclasen@redhat.com>> > wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >> image 2GB big'. > >> > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > Finally we can move away from the 1990s (CDs), but yeah I agree > besides OO.org I can't think of an app that I really miss on the live > media. > > Just because we do have more space available does not mean that we > have to fill it with random crap. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:34:51 -0500 > From: David Zeuthen <davidz(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=davidz@redhat.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list@redhat..com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <1257453291.17978.12.camel(a)localhost.localdomain<http://mc/compose?to=1257453291.17978.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it > > creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in > > a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is > > starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about > > including useless crap. > > Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed. > > (FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD > desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.) > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > > http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ > > on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing. > > > And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but > > bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with > > absurd caps like 10GB/month? > > They do have mirrors in Australia. > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > image 2GB big'. > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > to say it should be. > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > CDs.. > > F13 will be released in 2010. > > David > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:37:43 -0500 (EST) > From: Seth Vidal <skvidal(a)fedoraproject.org<http://mc/compose?to=skvidal@fedoraproject.org> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <alpine.LFD..2.00.0911051536440.9192(a)localhost.localdomain<http://mc/compose?to=alpine.LFD.2.00.0911051536440.9192@localhost.localdoma…> > > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it > >> creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in > >> a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is > >> starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about > >> including useless crap. > > > > Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed. > > > > (FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD > > desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.) > > > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > > > > http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ > > > > on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing. > > > >> And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but > >> bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with > >> absurd caps like 10GB/month? > > > > They do have mirrors in Australia. > > > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >> image 2GB big'. > > > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > > to say it should be. > > > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > > CDs. > > > > Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they > were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install > via the net talking to a local mirror. > > > not disputing any other points - but it's not like the super-small image > has ever been 6-cds. > > -sv > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:47:02 +0100 > From: Lars Herrmann <herrmann(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=herrmann@redhat.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <1257454022.3222.8636.camel(a)x61.sulz<http://mc/compose?to=1257454022.3222.8636.camel@x61.sulz> > > > Content-Type: text/plain > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > > image 2GB big'. > > > > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? > > Just a thought > > Lars > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:50:01 -0500 > From: Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=notting@redhat.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <20091105205000.GA2428(a)nostromo.devel.redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=20091105205000..GA2428@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Lars Herrmann (herrmann(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=herrmann@redhat.com>) > said: > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > > language-group spins ? > > That explodes the testing matrix, though. (And makes something > that needs to support some superset of languages a mess.) > > Bill > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:50:17 +0100 > From: drago01 <drago01(a)gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=drago01@gmail.com>> > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: > <f6ca9fed0911051250y76f42f9ap7dc230eed7c687fe(a)mail.gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=f6ca9fed0911051250y76f42f9ap7dc230eed7c687fe@mail.gmai…> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann <herrmann(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=herrmann@redhat.com>> > wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> > >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >> > image 2GB big'. > >> > > >> > >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > > language-group spins ? > > > > Just a thought > > Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user > experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't > acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...." > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:52:28 -0500 > From: David Zeuthen <davidz(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=davidz@redhat.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <1257454348.17978.16.camel(a)localhost.localdomain<http://mc/compose?to=1257454348.17978.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > > > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > > > CDs. > > > > > > > Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if > they > > were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install > > via the net talking to a local mirror. > > Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a > minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were > properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point). > > Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling. > I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to > install.) > > Thanks, > David > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:56:22 -0500 (EST) > From: Seth Vidal <skvidal(a)fedoraproject.org<http://mc/compose?to=skvidal@fedoraproject.org> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0911051556170.9192(a)localhost.localdomain<http://mc/compose?to=alpine.LFD.2.00.0911051556170.9192@localhost.localdoma…> > > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > >>> Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > >>> we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > >>> CDs. > >>> > >> > >> Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if > they > >> were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install > >> via the net talking to a local mirror. > > > > Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a > > minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were > > properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point). > > > > Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling. > > I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to > > install.) > > yep. In f11 it's called netinst. > > Fedora-11-i386-netinst..iso > > for example. > > it's 177MB. Which is pretty light weight. It has stage2 on it iirc. > > -sv > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:58:45 +0100 > From: Lars Herrmann <herrmann(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=herrmann@redhat.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <1257454725.3222.8695.camel(a)x61.sulz<http://mc/compose?to=1257454725.3222.8695.camel@x61.sulz> > > > Content-Type: text/plain > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 21:50 +0100 schrieb drago01: > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann <herrmann(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=herrmann@redhat.com>> > wrote: > > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > >> > > >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > >> > functional live image and make our smallest > 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > >> > image 2GB big'. > > >> > > > >> > > >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > > >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > > > > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > > > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > > > language-group spins ? > > > > > > Just a thought > > > > Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user > > experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't > > acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...." > > > > The point is that it in fact *is* annoying that a significant chunk of > space goes to totally irrelevant packages. I am typically installing 3 > languages on my system and I am sure this represents a tiny fraction of > the user base. North of 90% will never ever use more than one language. > And they will know which one they need prior to downloading ;) > > Having a button in the distro to "add a language" is a useful feature > anyway - it's a bit of a pain today if you want to add a language later > and have to find out which packages to add. Same goes for removing. > > But I'm not aware of all implications of course ... > > Lars > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:20:30 -0500 > From: Matthias Clasen <mclasen(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=mclasen@redhat.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <1257456030.2589.0.camel@planemask> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 21:47 +0100, Lars Herrmann wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > > > image 2GB big'. > > > > > > > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > > > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > > language-group spins ? > > > > Just a thought > > > > I did that experiment back in August. Here is what I wrote back then: > > > Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso > > size up to 825M. > > > > Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up > > to 820M. > > > > This is without any openoffice lang packs. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:56:29 -0500 > From: "Paul W. Frields" <stickster(a)gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=stickster@gmail.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > Message-ID: <20091105225629.GC2894(a)victoria.internal.frields.org<http://mc/compose?to=20091105225629.GC2894@victoria.internal.frields.org> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 01:35:26PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > David Zeuthen (davidz(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=davidz@redhat.com>) > said: > > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G > = > > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some > may > > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") > while > > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > > have for any overlay. > > > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > > the overlay. > > > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. > > The price differences between 1GB and 2GB sticks seem minimal (and you > can find some 2GB cheaper than 1GB, of course). I lobbied purposely > with the Red Hat Summit organizers to make sure we gave out Fedora on > 2GB keys so that we could have a sizable key. > > -- > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:10:14 +0200 > From: Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora(a)nicubunu.ro<http://mc/compose?to=nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: <4AF3E7F6.9070106(a)nicubunu.ro<http://mc/compose?to=4AF3E7F6.9070106@nicubunu.ro> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 11/05/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > > > > http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ > > + 1 million > > > > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >> image 2GB big'. > > > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > > to say it should be. > > How about a middle ground? Most of the people will just try and see what > is about, they will not use write overlay, so we can target the image at > 1 GB (999 MB), to cover their case. Advanced users, who will made use of > the write overlay, will surely write the image on a 2GB or large drive, > having the option to set the overlay as large as they want and the > possibility to throw in other useful things, like a persistent home. > > -- > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:10:16 +0530 > From: onkar mirajkar <odmirajkar(a)gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=odmirajkar@gmail.com> > > > Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > > Message-ID: > <3492acc30911060440m48a62286qf58f18beec83b46d(a)mail.gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=3492acc30911060440m48a62286qf58f18beec83b46d@mail.gmai…> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi, > Few days back I created a Ubnutu live USB. But I recognize that its not > good > for my day to day use as it doesnot allow me to add my own packages like > VLC. > Is this a general problem with all Live USB as there are live dvd creator > which allows me to add my own packages. > I think its good idea to add this feature as USB is read wirte device not > read only like DVD so that user can install their own software and > customize > thier live USB. > Thanks, > Onkar > > > > 2009/11/6 Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora(a)nicubunu.ro<http://mc/compose?to=nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro> > > > > > On 11/05/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > > >> > >> Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > >> space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > >> software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > >> like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > >> > >> http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ > >> > > > > + 1 million > > > > > > > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >>> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >>> image 2GB big'. > >>> > >> > >> No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > >> 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > >> to say it should be. > >> > > > > How about a middle ground? Most of the people will just try and see what > is > > about, they will not use write overlay, so we can target the image at 1 > GB > > (999 MB), to cover their case. Advanced users, who will made use of the > > write overlay, will surely write the image on a 2GB or large drive, > having > > the option to set the overlay as large as they want and the possibility > to > > throw in other useful things, like a persistent home. > > > > -- > > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > -- > > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > > Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/attachments/20091106/b9… > > ------------------------------ > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com<http://mc/compose?to=Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > End of Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 5 > ************************************************** > > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list >

1 0

RE: Firewall to printers
by Hristo Petkov 11 Nov '09

11 Nov '09

Hi guys, When I installed the printer I had also problems with the firewall. Following the advise of HP I disabled the firewall, the OS accepted the printer and after that activated the firewall back again (and with some help from the Fedora team) the printer is O.K. The installation of this binary driver plugin is really a Grand Slalom, but this time I enjoyed it. If this would be of any help. Best regards, Christo Petkov

1 0

Opinion of inclusion of PackageKit-command-not-found on the desktop spin
by Adam Williamson 09 Nov '09

09 Nov '09

Hi, guys. Jesse and I would like to get an opinion from the desktop team on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=533553 - the request to drop PackageKit-command-not-found from the desktop spin. Jens went ahead and did this unilaterally and Matthias reverted it, which is understandable, but what we're not sure of is whether Matthias was worried only about the unilateral nature of Jens' move or whether you really want to keep command-not-found on the live spin. We'd probably prefer to take it out, since it's just too buggy: it's a great concept, but it breaks far too easily at the moment, I've seen it cause the yum database to be stuck for a long time and someone else on the bug has seen it peg out all his CPUs. It just seems too fragile to have it around by default yet. But we didn't want to just get involved in a revert war, so we're trying to get an opinion. We're probably going to have to do an RC4 spin and it's going to have to be within the next few hours, that's our window for this change; so if you could reply in the next few hours that'd be great. Thanks! -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net

3 7

Re: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 5
by Hristo Petkov 06 Nov '09

06 Nov '09

Hi Guys, I have a proposal. In my view this DVD is too complex to be made universal for various types of machines. Suppose the good old Live CD is furnished with a reference to the Fedora Project website and there to be installed an expert system advising the users depending on their machine, their periphery and their application goals what to install what is better to install instead of what and what is not entirely advisable to be installed. How to make a full-featured high-speed desktop from ground zero (from the live CD on formatted HD) in a couple of hours, etc. Things like that. Just a proposal. Best regards Christo Petkov --- On Fri, 11/6/09, fedora-desktop-list-request(a)redhat.com <fedora-desktop-list-request(a)redhat.com> wrote: From: fedora-desktop-list-request(a)redhat.com <fedora-desktop-list-request(a)redhat.com> Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 5 To: fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 12:40 PM Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to fedora-desktop-list-request(a)redhat.com You can reach the person managing the list at fedora-desktop-list-owner(a)redhat.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) 2. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Bill Nottingham) 3. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) 4. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Adam Williamson) 5. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Matthias Clasen) 6. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (drago01) 7. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) 8. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Seth Vidal) 9. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Lars Herrmann) 10. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Bill Nottingham) 11. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (drago01) 12. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (David Zeuthen) 13. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Seth Vidal) 14. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Lars Herrmann) 15. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Matthias Clasen) 16. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Paul W. Frields) 17. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (Nicu Buculei) 18. Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff (onkar mirajkar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:20:13 -0500 From: David Zeuthen <davidz(a)redhat.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org, Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <1257445213.15710.18.camel(a)localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > The image size is 1022 M. This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. It would probably be helpful to do a quick study of actual sizes of 1GB USB sticks - we may end up wanting to do a 990 MB (990,000,000,000 bytes) image or something so the image works on as many USB sticks as possible. David ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:24:54 -0500 From: Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091105182453.GA16392(a)nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii David Zeuthen (davidz(a)redhat.com) said: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > The image size is 1022 M. > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll have for any overlay. Bill ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:35:26 -0500 From: David Zeuthen <davidz(a)redhat.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <1257446126.15710.30.camel(a)localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > David Zeuthen (davidz(a)redhat.com) said: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > have for any overlay. Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for the overlay. Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. David ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:55:01 -0800 From: Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <1257450902.2316.11.camel(a)adam.local.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:35 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > David Zeuthen (davidz(a)redhat.com) said: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > have for any overlay. > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > the overlay. > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about including useless crap. And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with absurd caps like 10GB/month? I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' image 2GB big'. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:56:42 -0500 From: Matthias Clasen <mclasen(a)redhat.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <1257451002.1875.2.camel@planemask> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > image 2GB big'. > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:05:30 +0100 From: drago01 <drago01(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0911051205i453be449jeb0ec9090c756505(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Matthias Clasen <mclasen(a)redhat.com> wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> image 2GB big'. >> > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. Finally we can move away from the 1990s (CDs), but yeah I agree besides OO.org I can't think of an app that I really miss on the live media. Just because we do have more space available does not mean that we have to fill it with random crap. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:34:51 -0500 From: David Zeuthen <davidz(a)redhat.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <1257453291.17978.12.camel(a)localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it > creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in > a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is > starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about > including useless crap. Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed. (FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.) Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing. > And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but > bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with > absurd caps like 10GB/month? They do have mirrors in Australia. > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > image 2GB big'. No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake to say it should be. Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six CDs. F13 will be released in 2010. David ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:37:43 -0500 (EST) From: Seth Vidal <skvidal(a)fedoraproject.org> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0911051536440.9192(a)localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: >> Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it >> creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in >> a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is >> starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about >> including useless crap. > > Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed. > > (FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD > desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.) > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > > http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ > > on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing. > >> And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but >> bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with >> absurd caps like 10GB/month? > > They do have mirrors in Australia. > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> image 2GB big'. > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > to say it should be. > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > CDs. > Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install via the net talking to a local mirror. not disputing any other points - but it's not like the super-small image has ever been 6-cds. -sv ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:47:02 +0100 From: Lars Herrmann <herrmann(a)redhat.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <1257454022.3222.8636.camel(a)x61.sulz> Content-Type: text/plain Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > image 2GB big'. > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or language-group spins ? Just a thought Lars ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:50:01 -0500 From: Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091105205000.GA2428(a)nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lars Herrmann (herrmann(a)redhat.com) said: > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? That explodes the testing matrix, though. (And makes something that needs to support some superset of languages a mess.) Bill ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:50:17 +0100 From: drago01 <drago01(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <f6ca9fed0911051250y76f42f9ap7dc230eed7c687fe(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann <herrmann(a)redhat.com> wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: >> >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> > image 2GB big'. >> > >> >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? > > Just a thought Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...." ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:52:28 -0500 From: David Zeuthen <davidz(a)redhat.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <1257454348.17978.16.camel(a)localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, > > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six > > CDs. > > > > Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they > were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install > via the net talking to a local mirror. Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point). Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling. I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to install.) Thanks, David ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:56:22 -0500 (EST) From: Seth Vidal <skvidal(a)fedoraproject.org> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0911051556170.9192(a)localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: >>> Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago, >>> we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six >>> CDs. >>> >> >> Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they >> were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install >> via the net talking to a local mirror. > > Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a > minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were > properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point). > > Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling. > I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to > install.) yep. In f11 it's called netinst. Fedora-11-i386-netinst.iso for example. it's 177MB. Which is pretty light weight. It has stage2 on it iirc. -sv ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:58:45 +0100 From: Lars Herrmann <herrmann(a)redhat.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <1257454725.3222.8695.camel(a)x61.sulz> Content-Type: text/plain Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 21:50 +0100 schrieb drago01: > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann <herrmann(a)redhat.com> wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> > >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > >> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > >> > image 2GB big'. > >> > > >> > >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > > language-group spins ? > > > > Just a thought > > Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user > experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't > acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...." > The point is that it in fact *is* annoying that a significant chunk of space goes to totally irrelevant packages. I am typically installing 3 languages on my system and I am sure this represents a tiny fraction of the user base. North of 90% will never ever use more than one language. And they will know which one they need prior to downloading ;) Having a button in the distro to "add a language" is a useful feature anyway - it's a bit of a pain today if you want to add a language later and have to find out which packages to add. Same goes for removing. But I'm not aware of all implications of course ... Lars ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:20:30 -0500 From: Matthias Clasen <mclasen(a)redhat.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <1257456030.2589.0.camel@planemask> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 21:47 +0100, Lars Herrmann wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small > > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' > > > image 2GB big'. > > > > > > > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice. > > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so. > > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or > language-group spins ? > > Just a thought > I did that experiment back in August. Here is what I wrote back then: > Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso > size up to 825M. > > Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up > to 820M. > > This is without any openoffice lang packs. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:56:29 -0500 From: "Paul W. Frields" <stickster(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com Message-ID: <20091105225629.GC2894(a)victoria.internal.frields.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 01:35:26PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > David Zeuthen (davidz(a)redhat.com) said: > > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > The image size is 1022 M. > > > > > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use > > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G = > > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units. > > > > > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M = > > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may > > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while > > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies. > > > > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll > > have for any overlay. > > Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can > be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB > keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for > the overlay. > > Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling* > stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc. The price differences between 1GB and 2GB sticks seem minimal (and you can find some 2GB cheaper than 1GB, of course). I lobbied purposely with the Red Hat Summit organizers to make sure we gave out Fedora on 2GB keys so that we could have a sizable key. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:10:14 +0200 From: Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora(a)nicubunu.ro> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <4AF3E7F6.9070106(a)nicubunu.ro> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 11/05/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > > Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the > space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for > software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things > like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include > > http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ + 1 million > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >> image 2GB big'. > > No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest > 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake > to say it should be. How about a middle ground? Most of the people will just try and see what is about, they will not use write overlay, so we can target the image at 1 GB (999 MB), to cover their case. Advanced users, who will made use of the write overlay, will surely write the image on a 2GB or large drive, having the option to set the overlay as large as they want and the possibility to throw in other useful things, like a persistent home. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:10:16 +0530 From: onkar mirajkar <odmirajkar(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Desktop Live DVD: diff To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop <fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com> Message-ID: <3492acc30911060440m48a62286qf58f18beec83b46d(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, Few days back I created a Ubnutu live USB. But I recognize that its not good for my day to day use as it doesnot allow me to add my own packages like VLC. Is this a general problem with all Live USB as there are live dvd creator which allows me to add my own packages. I think its good idea to add this feature as USB is read wirte device not read only like DVD so that user can install their own software and customize thier live USB. Thanks, Onkar 2009/11/6 Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora(a)nicubunu.ro> > On 11/05/2009 10:34 PM, David Zeuthen wrote: > >> >> Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the >> space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for >> software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things >> like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include >> >> http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/ >> > > + 1 million > > > >> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small >>> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box' >>> image 2GB big'. >>> >> >> No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest >> 'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake >> to say it should be. >> > > How about a middle ground? Most of the people will just try and see what is > about, they will not use write overlay, so we can target the image at 1 GB > (999 MB), to cover their case. Advanced users, who will made use of the > write overlay, will surely write the image on a 2GB or large drive, having > the option to set the overlay as large as they want and the possibility to > throw in other useful things, like a persistent home. > > -- > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list(a)redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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