I used Mint Linux (ubuntu derivative) and loved it's shutdown button.
This looks to me much more user friendly than one we have on Fedora.
First buttons for shutdown, restart, sleep and log-off have icons - and fedora has only naked buttons. The screen dims when you click on shutdown - really nice effect.
This looks to me as standard Ubuntu button and not something ubuntu has made them selves so I was puzzled when I didn't see it in Fedora 7 test 3 or 4.
Can you also include this - a much better version of shutdown button than one fedora currently uses.
It is much more usable, and user frendly - and it has logoff button integrated in it and not separate (as it should also be on fedora IMHO).
Please look at the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWuZvOAAE9c
Thank you.
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 13:30 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
I used Mint Linux (ubuntu derivative) and loved it's shutdown button.
This looks to me much more user friendly than one we have on Fedora.
First buttons for shutdown, restart, sleep and log-off have icons - and fedora has only naked buttons. The screen dims when you click on shutdown - really nice effect.
This looks to me as standard Ubuntu button and not something ubuntu has made them selves so I was puzzled when I didn't see it in Fedora 7 test 3 or 4.
Can you also include this - a much better version of shutdown button than one fedora currently uses.
It is much more usable, and user frendly - and it has logoff button integrated in it and not separate (as it should also be on fedora IMHO).
Please look at the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWuZvOAAE9c
The logout dialog is one of the best-hated derivations from upstream that you can find in Ubuntu. Don't expect us to blindly follow them where they err, just because it looks shiny.
The logout dialog is one of the best-hated derivations from upstream that you can find in Ubuntu.
Hated by whom? And why? Can you explain a bit?
Don't expect us to blindly follow them where they err, just because it looks shiny.
I don't care if it is ubunut, gentoo, opensuse or fedora... but when I as a user see when one distro has taken one component and really made it shine (not as eyecandy) for users and made it much more user friendly and made it better usabillity wise ie. big icons that users get right away - that makes me want to see that kind of progress on all other linux desktops.
Why do you thing that it is a mistake? Because they did it themselves independent of Gnome? I thought that it was part of gnome but that just fedora wasn't using it.
Gnome people should see this as work done for them and include it in gnome.... if they like it. Or atlest give us users option to choose which shutdown button we would use.
ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 18:00 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:
The logout dialog is one of the best-hated derivations from upstream that you can find in Ubuntu.
Hated by whom? And why? Can you explain a bit?
Pretty much anyone I've asked at least including myself. It's non-sensical and looks out of place, if we need to redesign the upstream dialog it should be done there with an eye to how the rest of the desktop works and looks not in every distro.
I'm sure there's room for improvement in the default but the Ubuntu dialog does not represent any significant added value.
- David
On 5/16/07, David Nielsen david@lovesunix.net wrote:
ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 18:00 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic:
The logout dialog is one of the best-hated derivations from upstream that you can find in Ubuntu.
Hated by whom? And why? Can you explain a bit?
Pretty much anyone I've asked at least including myself. It's non-sensical and looks out of place, if we need to redesign the upstream dialog it should be done there with an eye to how the rest of the desktop works and looks not in every distro. I'm sure there's room for improvement in the default but the Ubuntu dialog does not represent any significant added value.
I can bet that you have read Debian statements when Ubuntu came out - they also concluded the same - but didn't bother to ask the users what they think or want. When Ubuntu came out the users answers were clear.
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Can you also include this - a much better version of shutdown button than one fedora currently uses.
IMHO, a shutdown button is a shutdown button... it shuts your computer down... if you want eye-candy (apart from whatever anyone subjectively considers eye-candy), you shouldn't shut down the computer in the first place.
-kanarip
On 5/16/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen kanarip@kanarip.com wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
Can you also include this - a much better version of shutdown button than one fedora currently uses.
IMHO, a shutdown button is a shutdown button... it shuts your computer down... if you want eye-candy (apart from whatever anyone subjectively considers eye-candy), you shouldn't shut down the computer in the first place.
If you looked atleast at one desktop usabillity study you woldn't say such tings. Buttons matter to users, colors of buttons matter... the shape of buttons also matters...
Le mercredi 16 mai 2007 à 18:02 +0200, Valent Turkovic a écrit :
If you looked atleast at one desktop usabillity study you woldn't say such tings. Buttons matter to users, colors of buttons matter... the shape of buttons also matters...
These problems are best discussed on the fedora-desktop & fedora-art lists
ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:40 +0200, skrev Nicolas Mailhot:
Le mercredi 16 mai 2007 à 18:02 +0200, Valent Turkovic a écrit :
If you looked atleast at one desktop usabillity study you woldn't say such tings. Buttons matter to users, colors of buttons matter... the shape of buttons also matters...
These problems are best discussed on the fedora-desktop & fedora-art lists
This is the Fedora-desktop list, I assume you meant upstream usability list?
Hi Nicolas,
Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le mercredi 16 mai 2007 à 18:02 +0200, Valent Turkovic a écrit :
If you looked atleast at one desktop usabillity study you woldn't say such tings. Buttons matter to users, colors of buttons matter... the shape of buttons also matters...
These problems are best discussed on the fedora-desktop & fedora-art lists
I am not an active poster on this thread, but I do believe that this would be the right list to discuss the OP's issue. Isn't this supposed to be the fedora usability list? If we do come to the agreement that an icon along with the text makes more sense, then we could request the art-team, or the team incharge to incorporate the changes.
In the current dialog, I do see a certain usability hindrance. I am typically used to shutting down my laptop before heading to work. Recently when I wished to hibernate the system instead, I found myself taking the effort of reading the text to get to the action that I intended to perform.
I am not stating that icons are useless. Just that, it is easier for a lot of people to associate an image with an action. If appropriate icons were made available, and if I had used those icons through the menu-items, then at one glance, I would know the button to click on (within the shutdown dialog).
Regarding the question on the surrounding items being dimmed, I believe this is a feature that a lot of new generation applications are also taking up. I do not have the links to prove my point at the moment, but I shall do my research on get back to you on it. I *guess* the idea here is to gain the user's attention towards the action in question, but I may be wrong on this one :-)
thanks, Rogue
Le mercredi 16 mai 2007 à 23:26 +0530, Rogue a écrit :
I am not an active poster on this thread, but I do believe that this would be the right list to discuss the OP's issue. Isn't this supposed to be the fedora usability list?
It's the right list in theory.
In practise since much of the people doing the work are on the art list, CC-ing them is required to get results and valuable input. Especially if you're talking icons and colours.
(Conversely a lot of things that happen on the art list should be CC-ed there. Yes I know our organisation sucks.)
Regards,
It's the right list in theory.
In practise since much of the people doing the work are on the art list, CC-ing them is required to get results and valuable input. Especially if you're talking icons and colours.
Thanks for this info. I shall keep that in mind and try and subscribe that list too.
(Conversely a lot of things that happen on the art list should be CC-ed there. Yes I know our organisation sucks.)
I think that is an issue with huge organizations :-) ... Trust me, it ain't an organization fault.
later, Rogue
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 13:30 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
I used Mint Linux (ubuntu derivative) and loved it's shutdown button.
Even better, work on making the shutdown and reboot buttons sync kernel buffers to disk, perhaps some other misc cleanup on the order of 2-3 seconds max, then cut the power.
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 13:30 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
It is much more usable, and user frendly - and it has logoff button integrated in it and not separate (as it should also be on fedora IMHO).
I for one are no fan of lumping logout and shutdown together. They are fundamentally different tasks, at least if you come from a Unix background.
As for suspend and hibernate and whatever else there may be in the future, the users shouldn't be made to choose between those every time they want to take their notebook for a walk. They should make their preferred choice once (in some preferences dialog), and then simply close the lid and walk off.
Cheers Steffen.
Hi Steffen,
Steffen Kluge wrote:
As for suspend and hibernate and whatever else there may be in the future, the users shouldn't be made to choose between those every time they want to take their notebook for a walk. They should make their preferred choice once (in some preferences dialog), and then simply close the lid and walk off.
This feature is already present in the power management options (available in both the task-bar and the preferences menu).
Cheers Steffen.
On 5/18/07, Steffen Kluge kluge@fujitsu.com.au wrote:
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 13:30 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
It is much more usable, and user frendly - and it has logoff button integrated in it and not separate (as it should also be on fedora IMHO).
I for one are no fan of lumping logout and shutdown together. They are fundamentally different tasks, at least if you come from a Unix background.
When you say "unix" I hear "servers". Fedora should be more about desktop and user experience with this great desktop. You should look more towards the OSX than to unix in these matters. Look just what Apple has made with an "unix" system when they combined a great user experience. I still prefer Fedora to OSX, but I must say Fedora could do better it it borrowed some of the great solutions on OSX desktop.
Different pieces should be logically grouped together even if the are for different tasks - that is done all the time - so I don't see any argument not to do it here.
For a better desktop workflow for me it is nor logical to have two buttons - especially because you really have to look hard at them to make the distinction - and if you put them on gnome panel you have two buttons instead of one.
To be more clear - I am talking about merging functionality of gnome panel buttons. In "System" gnome menu there is possibly a case for leaving them separate - but when I look at them now they look too similar - and it there wasn't text beside them I would have to give them a really hard look before deciding which button to push.
On 5/21/07, Steffen Kluge kluge@fujitsu.com.au wrote:
On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 12:05 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
You should look more towards the OSX than to unix in these matters.
Good idea. Sleep/Restart/Shutdown are separate from Logout in Mac OS X.
Cheers Steffen.
Come on Steffen, it is too easy to make a point when you take things out of context... i was speaking about apple in much wider terms, not to copy how they did this one thing.
Logically Sleep/Restart/Shutdown and logout fit together.
Valent Turkovic wrote:
On 5/21/07, Steffen Kluge kluge@fujitsu.com.au wrote:
On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 12:05 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
You should look more towards the OSX than to unix in these matters.
Good idea. Sleep/Restart/Shutdown are separate from Logout in Mac OS X.
Cheers Steffen.
Come on Steffen, it is too easy to make a point when you take things out of context... i was speaking about apple in much wider terms, not to copy how they did this one thing.
Logically Sleep/Restart/Shutdown and logout fit together.
Come on, just like start -> shutdown -> logoff -> confirm?
It looks to me you suggested earlier that I'm new to this world but desktop studies have shown that what is most important to users is that they can intuitively 'control' or 'use' the operating system -that includes that all software is there so when you insert a DVD it plays it, and when you connect a printer; you can print-. Anyway, back to my point.
I don't know how eye-candy in the shut down dialog improves user experience in a way that makes shutting down a machine more intuitive. Now, if you're seriously considering an alteration to the shut down dialog, I suggest you put that idea upstream, because we are in-line with them. And so we should, because derivations gets you distro-specific desktops which won't make anyone any happier.
In addition -this is just my personal opinion-, why do we even have a dialog? Didn't I just click 'Shut Down'? The machine should thus shut down, not ask me another question. Luckily, there is a default timeout, so the machine shuts down without user input after all. Now this is something I'd rather see different. *But I know why it's there* and I admit that for the general desktop user -not for me personally- it's an improvement.
You could do the same, considering that you would like to see things different, but you know that when keeping in-line with upstream will improve upstream -and thus FOSS; even Ubuntu- if you put some effort where your mouth is, rather then complaining that derivate X looks better to you then in-line Y. IMHO there's no such thing as 'Do it different in Fedora' as far as upstream software is concerned -it breaks with upstream, we depend on them-. If we want things different, code flows into upstream source repositories.
I'm sure there'll be more eye-candy in GNOME/KDE tomorrow, and even more the day after... If only we work with them, not derive from them. I bet this entire 'What should the shut down dialog look like?' discussion has already taken place, someone or some group has decided what to do and you're questioning them by saying it could improve the intuitiveness by looking different from what it looks now because the most derivative of distributions has changed the looks and you like it.
You feel me?
Kind regards,
Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Colin Walters -
David Nielsen -
Jeroen van Meeuwen -
Matthias Clasen -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Rogue -
Steffen Kluge -
Valent Turkovic