Here is a proposal for a drastic first cut, dropping tools that are dysfunctional or obsoleted by other modules or of limited use or totally uninteresting for the target audience of a desktop spin:
- system-config-boot - system-config-language - system-config-lvm - system-config-network - system-config-rootpassword - system-config-selinux - system-config-services
After this cut, we'll be left with - PackageKit stuff - authconfig - s-c-firewall - s-c-printing - s-c-users
I fully expect some outcry in reaction to this proposal, but keep in mind that the tools will still be available for installation, just not directly on the live cd.
Comments ?
Matthias
On Mon, 2009-07-06 at 17:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
Here is a proposal for a drastic first cut, dropping tools that are dysfunctional or obsoleted by other modules or of limited use or totally uninteresting for the target audience of a desktop spin:
Cool, thanks for doing this.
- s-c-firewall
I'd nuke this one too. Along with modifying the desktop livecd ks file to completely disable the firewall. Should be easy enough, I think the kickstart syntax has a shortcut for this.
(The rationale for why the above is the right thing to do for the _desktop_ livecd can be found in the archives for this list and the archives for fedora-devel-list. Please familiarize yourself with these threads before flaming. Thanks.)
David
On Mon, Jul 06, 2009 at 05:39:51PM -0400, David Zeuthen wrote:
On Mon, 2009-07-06 at 17:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
Here is a proposal for a drastic first cut, dropping tools that are dysfunctional or obsoleted by other modules or of limited use or totally uninteresting for the target audience of a desktop spin:
Cool, thanks for doing this.
- s-c-firewall
I'd nuke this one too. Along with modifying the desktop livecd ks file to completely disable the firewall. Should be easy enough, I think the kickstart syntax has a shortcut for this.
(The rationale for why the above is the right thing to do for the _desktop_ livecd can be found in the archives for this list and the archives for fedora-devel-list. Please familiarize yourself with these threads before flaming. Thanks.)
Has anyone talked with the s-c-firewall maintainer and other interested parties to see what could be done to change the model by which it works? E.g.:
* Punching holes where needed to support Avahi, user file sharing, ...
* Setting networks up for trust, so you could operate more freely on your home wireless, but be less trusting at a new wireless network you don't own
From what I hear, Thomas Woerner was interested in collaborating on
these features.
On 07/07/2009 03:08 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
Here is a proposal for a drastic first cut, dropping tools that are dysfunctional or obsoleted by other modules or of limited use or totally uninteresting for the target audience of a desktop spin:
Is this target audience written down anywhere?
- system-config-boot
- system-config-language
- system-config-lvm
- system-config-selinux
- system-config-rootpassword
These can go. I wouldn't miss them in the default install esp with sudo setup. Why isn't that configured yet?
- system-config-network
- system-config-services
I am doubtful about these.
Rahul
On 07/07/2009 06:41 PM, Adam Jackson wrote:
On Tue, 2009-07-07 at 11:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
- system-config-network
- system-config-services
I am doubtful about these.
Please describe a situation in which you need to use s-c-network on a LiveCD.
Live CD's are the primary recommended medium of installation in Fedora via http://get.fedoraproject.org. Depending on the setup, you need it to configure the network to get online and to get the other tools. So that's a important need for it.
Rahul
On Tue, 2009-07-07 at 20:23 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On 07/07/2009 06:41 PM, Adam Jackson wrote:
On Tue, 2009-07-07 at 11:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
- system-config-network
- system-config-services
I am doubtful about these.
Please describe a situation in which you need to use s-c-network on a LiveCD.
Live CD's are the primary recommended medium of installation in Fedora via http://get.fedoraproject.org. Depending on the setup, you need it to configure the network to get online and to get the other tools. So that's a important need for it.
Setup should be using NetworkManager already... it just writes out ifcfg files based on your DHCP/Static choice and lets NM do whatever.
Dan
On 07/07/2009 08:47 PM, Dan Williams wrote:
Setup should be using NetworkManager already... it just writes out ifcfg files based on your DHCP/Static choice and lets NM do whatever.
If you really think NM now provides all that s-c-n provides, shouldn't it be removed from the repo itself? I don't think we are at that stage yet and it would be useful to understand why users are continuing to use s-c-n before dropping it from the default installation. Tools that are being used by our users to get on the network cannot be dropped from the default because it would create a chicken and egg problem.
Rahul
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:08 AM, Matthias Clasenmclasen@redhat.com wrote:
Here is a proposal for a drastic first cut, dropping tools that are dysfunctional or obsoleted by other modules or of limited use or totally uninteresting for the target audience of a desktop spin:
- system-config-
Comments ?
They can be removed, provided the other alternatives are stable enough. But do keep a menu item 'System-Config-Missing' with a link to documentation pointing to the correct GUI and CLI alternatives and other options.
Best
A. Mani
Mani A (a.mani.cms@gmail.com) said:
Here is a proposal for a drastic first cut, dropping tools that are dysfunctional or obsoleted by other modules or of limited use or totally uninteresting for the target audience of a desktop spin:
- system-config-
Comments ?
They can be removed, provided the other alternatives are stable enough. But do keep a menu item 'System-Config-Missing' with a link to documentation pointing to the correct GUI and CLI alternatives and other options.
... how is that a useful UI to give to the user?
Either what we have on the LiveCD is good enough, and we don't need a weird 'missing link' documentation item. Or it isn't good enough... and it should be fixed to be. Equivocating isn't useful.
Bill
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Bill Nottinghamnotting@redhat.com wrote:
Mani A (a.mani.cms@gmail.com) said:
They can be removed, provided the other alternatives are stable enough. But do keep a menu item 'System-Config-Missing' with a link to documentation pointing to the correct GUI and CLI alternatives and other options.
... how is that a useful UI to give to the user?
Either what we have on the LiveCD is good enough, and we don't need a weird 'missing link' documentation item. Or it isn't good enough... and it should be fixed to be. Equivocating isn't useful.
It can be useful for new users and users with some previous Fedora experience who may not care to look at the release notes. This class may become confused and possibly move over to some other distro.
The other option is to have separate release notes for the live Cd and dvds. Maybe users should be forced to RTFM :)
Best
A. Mani
Mani A (a.mani.cms@gmail.com) said:
They can be removed, provided the other alternatives are stable enough. But do keep a menu item 'System-Config-Missing' with a link to documentation pointing to the correct GUI and CLI alternatives and other options.
... how is that a useful UI to give to the user?
Either what we have on the LiveCD is good enough, and we don't need a weird 'missing link' documentation item. Or it isn't good enough... and it should be fixed to be. Equivocating isn't useful.
It can be useful for new users and users with some previous Fedora experience who may not care to look at the release notes.
That, by definition, is everyone. If that's what you mean, say that.
This class may become confused and possibly move over to some other distro.
How would they be confused any more than they would with different configuration being available in the Desktop, KDE, XFCE, and LXDE spins?
I still maintain the only sensible action is to ship one set of tools that works well and is integrated, not random docs that say 'oh, you may want to look elsewhere.'
Bill
On Mon, 2009-07-06 at 17:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
Here is a proposal for a drastic first cut, dropping tools that are dysfunctional or obsoleted by other modules or of limited use or totally uninteresting for the target audience of a desktop spin:
- system-config-boot
- system-config-language
- system-config-lvm
- system-config-network
- system-config-rootpassword
- system-config-selinux
- system-config-services
After this cut, we'll be left with
- PackageKit stuff
- authconfig
- s-c-firewall
- s-c-printing
- s-c-users
I fully expect some outcry in reaction to this proposal, but keep in mind that the tools will still be available for installation, just not directly on the live cd.
Sorry for chiming in late.
I think in the long run it would be good if "Install to Hard Drive" let the user add the stuff not needed on live media in a simple way (e.g. "[x] add useful additional software to hard drive" which would for instance run "yum groupupdate" on some basic groups after the live medium has been copied to the harddisk). This way we could really strip the live media of all things usually only used on an installed system (e.g. authconfig, s-c-users as well) and hopefully everybody would be happy.
On another note, if anybody decides to drop or supersede something it would be polite to ping the respective maintainers about it -- some people only can participate here from time to time and it's kind of not so motivating if you realize that such discussions have happened or even decided upon while you were busy elsewhere.
Thanks, Nils
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
A. Mani -
Adam Jackson -
Bill Nottingham -
Dan Williams -
David Zeuthen -
Matthias Clasen -
Nils Philippsen -
Paul W. Frields -
Rahul Sundaram