Hi community, I'm Andrea Cimitan (aka Cimi), a gnome themer from Italy. :) Probably you had known my name in gnomelook.org, there I'm Cimi86, and I've created a lot of themes like Murrine GTK2 Cairo Engine (http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=42755, http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine.php) and Candido Themes.
I was thinking about a new proposal for Fedora Core GTK look. Do you know that Ubuntu has "Ubuntulooks" as default theme engine, so I thought "Why Fedora couldn't have Murrine?". Feedbacks on gnomelook.org and polls on Ubuntu Forums hilight that Murrine is the favourite Engine of Linux Desktop users. That's why I'm proposing to you.
Murrine is a new-conception GTK2 Cairo engine, it was a fork of Clearlooks code with a lot of improvements and bugfixes: its best feature is surely the "options" through which the users can easily change the look of all the themes (There's a GUI here: http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php). The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from gnome devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it is is incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and more if you compare it to Ubuntulooks.
I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and then I can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop.
This is my proposale, I'm absolutely available to support you and to start a good discussion on it. I'm sure you will take care of these ideas so we can start a constructive thread to support or against it.
See you!!
Cimi - Andrea Cimitan
Hi Andrea, you've posted on the right list, but most themers seem to insist on using fedora-art-list instead, so I'm pushing it there
Le samedi 11 novembre 2006 à 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan a écrit :
Hi community, I'm Andrea Cimitan (aka Cimi), a gnome themer from Italy. :) Probably you had known my name in gnomelook.org, there I'm Cimi86, and I've created a lot of themes like Murrine GTK2 Cairo Engine (http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=42755, http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine.php) and Candido Themes.
I was thinking about a new proposal for Fedora Core GTK look. Do you know that Ubuntu has "Ubuntulooks" as default theme engine, so I thought "Why Fedora couldn't have Murrine?". Feedbacks on gnomelook.org and polls on Ubuntu Forums hilight that Murrine is the favourite Engine of Linux Desktop users. That's why I'm proposing to you.
Murrine is a new-conception GTK2 Cairo engine, it was a fork of Clearlooks code with a lot of improvements and bugfixes: its best feature is surely the "options" through which the users can easily change the look of all the themes (There's a GUI here: http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php). The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from gnome devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it is is incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and more if you compare it to Ubuntulooks.
I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and then I can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop.
This is my proposale, I'm absolutely available to support you and to start a good discussion on it. I'm sure you will take care of these ideas so we can start a constructive thread to support or against it.
See you!!
Cimi - Andrea Cimitan
Cimi,
On Sat, 11/11/06, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Hi Andrea, you've posted on the right list, but most themers seem to insist on using fedora-art-list instead, so I'm pushing it there
Le samedi 11 novembre 2006 à 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan a écrit :
Hi community, I'm Andrea Cimitan (aka Cimi), a gnome themer from Italy. :) Probably you had known my name in gnomelook.org, there I'm Cimi86, and I've created a lot of themes like Murrine GTK2 Cairo Engine (http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=42755, http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine.php) and Candido Themes.
I was thinking about a new proposal for Fedora Core GTK look. Do you know that Ubuntu has "Ubuntulooks" as default theme engine, so I thought "Why Fedora couldn't have Murrine?". Feedbacks on gnomelook.org and polls on Ubuntu Forums hilight that Murrine is the favourite Engine of Linux Desktop users. That's why I'm proposing to you.
Murrine is a new-conception GTK2 Cairo engine, it was a fork of Clearlooks code with a lot of improvements and bugfixes: its best feature is surely the "options" through which the users can easily change the look of all the themes (There's a GUI here: http://cimi.netsons.org/pages/murrine/configurator.php). The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from gnome devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it is is incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and more if you compare it to Ubuntulooks.
I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and then I can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop.
This is my proposale, I'm absolutely available to support you and to start a good discussion on it. I'm sure you will take care of these ideas so we can start a constructive thread to support or against it.
See you!!
Cimi - Andrea Cimitan
-- Nicolas Mailhot
I have actually suggested to use Murrine Engine¹ quite a while ago. However seems some people are confused with engine and theme. And to be honest I haven't find a good document to clear this confusion.
With your support, I think Murrine Engine will be an excellent substitute for the clearlooks engine. I'm all for this change.
But if FC7 is to use Murrine Engine, the package has to be in Core. I hope the art team make a decision asap.
BTW,
here is the .spec file
Footnotes: ¹ http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.artwork/364
Hi,
On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and then I can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop.
It sounds interesting. Can you put together a theme that uses your engine that has fedora-ish colors?
David, what do think? You might want to bring this up on the fedora-art list, too, so you can get some input from the fedora artists.
--Ray
On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 19:48 -0500, Ray Strode wrote:
It sounds interesting. Can you put together a theme that uses your engine that has fedora-ish colors?
If it helps, There is a Curve color scheme for Clearlooks (and its Cairo-enabled counterparts in FC6+). This is the Clearlooks theme with Bluecurve-ish colors. (It's part of the gnome-theme-clearlooks-bigpack package that I maintain in Extras.) That might be a good place to start so that you don't have to reinvent the wheel, as the saying goes. ^_^
Il giorno Sat, 11 Nov 2006 19:48:11 -0500 Ray Strode rstrode@redhat.com ha scritto:
Hi,
On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and then I can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop.
It sounds interesting. Can you put together a theme that uses your engine that has fedora-ish colors?
David, what do think? You might want to bring this up on the fedora-art list, too, so you can get some input from the fedora artists.
--Ray
Click to see my first screenshot of murrine with a simple fedora colorscheme...
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7726/previewml7.jpg
Impressions???
Hi,
On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and then I can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop.
It sounds interesting. Can you put together a theme that uses your engine that has fedora-ish colors?
David, what do think? You might want to bring this up on the fedora-art list, too, so you can get some input from the fedora artists.
--Ray
Click to see my first screenshot of murrine with a simple fedora colorscheme...
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7726/previewml7.jpg
Impressions???
I like it! Very smooth looking. One thing I would avoid is the blue menus and scrollbars. We had blue scrollbars in the default theme for a while and they weren't very popular.
--Ray
ons, 15 11 2006 kl. 15:14 -0500, skrev Ray Strode:
Hi,
On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
I think fedora could _at least_ add murrine to a repository, and then I can provide a fantastic color scheme for the fedora desktop.
It sounds interesting. Can you put together a theme that uses your engine that has fedora-ish colors?
David, what do think? You might want to bring this up on the fedora-art list, too, so you can get some input from the fedora artists.
--Ray
Click to see my first screenshot of murrine with a simple fedora colorscheme...
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7726/previewml7.jpg
Impressions???
I like it! Very smooth looking. One thing I would avoid is the blue menus and scrollbars. We had blue scrollbars in the default theme for a while and they weren't very popular.
All in all this is a fine effort. However:
- The lollipop effect on progressbars tend to make text of those hard to read, could we try with a plain one colored progress bar?
- Menubars are hard to read
- Scrollbars in the swiftfox window are both inconsistent with the theme previwer and hard to read (which one is representative of the real theme?)
- The blue buttons makes the text hard to read, this is especially visible on the ToggletoolButton example.
- The blocking effect around the SpinButton arrows I take is compression not a feature of the theme
But I generally like it a lot.
- David
Ray Strode escribió:
Hi, I like it! Very smooth looking. One thing I would avoid is the blue menus and scrollbars. We had blue scrollbars in the default theme for a while and they weren't very popular.
--Ray
I really liked the blue scrollbars of FC5's bluecurve, to the point that I based many themes for personal use with different colors (slate, green, silver...), apparently not everyone liked them, though.
On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from gnome devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it is is incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and more if you compare it to Ubuntulooks.
Famous last words...
One obvious flaw of murrine 0.31 is that it doesn't pass the theme engine api test in http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/gtk%2B/gtk-engine-check-abi.sh
Matthias
Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:19:33 -0500 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com ha scritto:
On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from gnome devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it is is incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and more if you compare it to Ubuntulooks.
Famous last words...
One obvious flaw of murrine 0.31 is that it doesn't pass the theme engine api test in http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/gtk%2B/gtk-engine-check-abi.sh
Matthias
what's that? I've launched this script but what doesn't work?
Anyway at least this engine has less bugs than clearlooks... this is what gnome developers said to me.
On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 10:56 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:19:33 -0500 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com ha scritto:
On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from gnome devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it is is incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and more if you compare it to Ubuntulooks.
Famous last words...
One obvious flaw of murrine 0.31 is that it doesn't pass the theme engine api test in http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/gtk%2B/gtk-engine-check-abi.sh
Matthias
what's that? I've launched this script but what doesn't work?
The engine exports more symbols than it has to, and pollutes the namespace by exporting things like shade()
Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:31:01 -0500 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com ha scritto:
On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 10:56 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:19:33 -0500 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com ha scritto:
On Sat, 2006-11-11 at 17:17 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
The engine is completely without bugs (it features support from gnome devs like benzea that helped me in the bugfix process) and it is is incredibly fast, nearly 50% faster than Clearlooks-Cairo and more if you compare it to Ubuntulooks.
Famous last words...
One obvious flaw of murrine 0.31 is that it doesn't pass the theme engine api test in http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/gtk%2B/gtk-engine-check-abi.sh
Matthias
what's that? I've launched this script but what doesn't work?
The engine exports more symbols than it has to, and pollutes the namespace by exporting things like shade()
Fixed here... next version (0.32) will have it patched
[cimi@hydra murrine-0.32]$ sh ~/Desktop/gtk-engine-check-abi.sh /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/engines/libmurrine.so [cimi@hydra murrine-0.32]$
Some more comments before I move on to something else:
- It would be much more readable to use enumeration and named values in the rc files rather than cryptic integers:
glazestyle = 1 # 0 = flat hilight, 1 = curved hilight, 2 = concave style menubarstyle = 2 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = gradient, 3 = striped menubaritemstyle = 0 # 0 = menuitem look, 1 = button look menuitemstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = striped listviewheaderstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy roundness = 5 # 0 = squared, 1 = old default, more will increase roundness
- While these knobs to tweak are certainly nice, the one thing that most people want to tweak in a theme are the colors. I would personally be much more interested in themes which make use of the new symbolic color mechanism in GTK+ 2.10 to create "recolorable" themes.
Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:03:16 -0500 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com ha scritto:
Some more comments before I move on to something else:
It would be much more readable to use enumeration and named values in the rc files rather than cryptic integers:
glazestyle = 1 # 0 = flat hilight, 1 = curved hilight, 2 =concave style menubarstyle = 2 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = gradient, 3 = striped menubaritemstyle = 0 # 0 = menuitem look, 1 = button look menuitemstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = striped listviewheaderstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy roundness = 5 # 0 = squared, 1 = old default, more will increase roundness
Murrine Configurator is solving this problem. 95% of users use Configurator to Configure their themes, so there's no problem related, and probably it will be a problem makin the opposite. I think that with strings people may write mistakes in typing and integers prevents this. Another thing is that with "integer" i can make >= == <= comparations in the engine so i can enable/disable features in a simple way.
- While these knobs to tweak are certainly nice, the one thing that most people want to tweak in a theme are the colors. I would personally be much more interested in themes which make use of the new symbolic color mechanism in GTK+ 2.10 to create "recolorable" themes.
When there will be a GUI (i.e. gnome 2.18 will probably features this) then I will certanly manage that improvement, even with you if you know how to manage it in the right way! :)
On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 15:19 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:03:16 -0500 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com ha scritto:
Some more comments before I move on to something else:
It would be much more readable to use enumeration and named values in the rc files rather than cryptic integers:
glazestyle = 1 # 0 = flat hilight, 1 = curved hilight, 2 =concave style menubarstyle = 2 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = gradient, 3 = striped menubaritemstyle = 0 # 0 = menuitem look, 1 = button look menuitemstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = striped listviewheaderstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy roundness = 5 # 0 = squared, 1 = old default, more will increase roundness
Murrine Configurator is solving this problem. 95% of users use Configurator to Configure their themes, so there's no problem related, and probably it will be a problem makin the opposite. I think that with strings people may write mistakes in typing and integers prevents this.
Honestly, I think you have your numbers wrong here. I'd expect it to be more like 1% of users who would ever consider using a tool like the configurator. And I disagree with the whole idea of having engine-specific configuration tools. If anything, such things should be part of a tweakui like tool that can handle multiple theme engines.
But for discussing a default theme, it is completely irrelevant. The default theme must be good as is, no tweaking required.
Another thing is that with "integer" i can make >= == <= comparations in the engine so i can enable/disable features in a simple way.
well, enum values are also integers when the arrive in the engine...
- While these knobs to tweak are certainly nice, the one thing that most people want to tweak in a theme are the colors. I would personally be much more interested in themes which make use of the new symbolic color mechanism in GTK+ 2.10 to create "recolorable" themes.
When there will be a GUI (i.e. gnome 2.18 will probably features this) then I will certanly manage that improvement, even with you if you know how to manage it in the right way! :)
Yes, all I'm saying is that since we will have gnome 2.18 in FC7, it would be good to consider symbolic colors now when discussing a new default theme.
Matthias
Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:27:27 -0500 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com ha scritto:
On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 15:19 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:03:16 -0500 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com ha scritto:
Some more comments before I move on to something else:
- It would be much more readable to use enumeration and named
values in the rc files rather than cryptic integers:
glazestyle = 1 # 0 = flat hilight, 1 = curved hilight, 2 =concave style menubarstyle = 2 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = gradient, 3 = striped menubaritemstyle = 0 # 0 = menuitem look, 1 = button look menuitemstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy, 2 = striped listviewheaderstyle = 0 # 0 = flat, 1 = glassy roundness = 5 # 0 = squared, 1 = old default, more will increase roundness
Murrine Configurator is solving this problem. 95% of users use Configurator to Configure their themes, so there's no problem related, and probably it will be a problem makin the opposite. I think that with strings people may write mistakes in typing and integers prevents this.
Honestly, I think you have your numbers wrong here. I'd expect it to be more like 1% of users who would ever consider using a tool like the configurator. And I disagree with the whole idea of having engine-specific configuration tools. If anything, such things should be part of a tweakui like tool that can handle multiple theme engines.
I'm referring to the people that *configure* themes... Great part of them use the configurator, as I see in Forums and where I talk about murrine. Anyway this is not a crucial problem... Since end-users are not using "options". Options are used only by themes-developers, and I think no one of them might have problems to use numbers instead words (for example in my tastes i prefer numbers)
But for discussing a default theme, it is completely irrelevant. The default theme must be good as is, no tweaking required.
Options are just a "good" features to themers, beacuse they can customize their themes how they want. They are just something "more" that can favourite an engine rather than the opposite. Take for example "roundness" option, someone like squared, others rounded... When a distro like Fedora decided the look they make few adjustments and the look will appear looking even better than without options. And as i remember... there are always default values...
Another thing is that with "integer" i can make >= == <= comparations in the engine so i can enable/disable features in a simple way.
well, enum values are also integers when the arrive in the engine...
Yes it can be tweaked easily i think
- While these knobs to tweak are certainly nice, the one thing
that most people want to tweak in a theme are the colors. I would personally be much more interested in themes which make use of the new symbolic color mechanism in GTK+ 2.10 to create "recolorable" themes.
When there will be a GUI (i.e. gnome 2.18 will probably features this) then I will certanly manage that improvement, even with you if you know how to manage it in the right way! :)
Yes, all I'm saying is that since we will have gnome 2.18 in FC7, it would be good to consider symbolic colors now when discussing a new default theme.
This is not important for a "default" theme since normally people will never edit default themes of their distro... At least i have never do it. It's a nice feature/improvement but i think it's absolutely secondary than fixing bugs (if there are) and deciding the default "palette" of the distro.
On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 15:59 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:27:27 -0500 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com ha scritto:
Yes, all I'm saying is that since we will have gnome 2.18 in FC7, it would be good to consider symbolic colors now when discussing a new default theme.
This is not important for a "default" theme since normally people will never edit default themes of their distro... At least i have never do it. It's a nice feature/improvement but i think it's absolutely secondary than fixing bugs (if there are) and deciding the default "palette" of the distro.
I'm not sure about that. For as long as I can remember, not having a way to customize colors in the UI has been a general complaint in each new Gnome or Fedora/Redhat release. Now that we finally have the capability to solve this I think we should try to get it done.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Alexander Larsson Red Hat, Inc alexl@redhat.com alla@lysator.liu.se He's a notorious guerilla librarian looking for a cure to the poison coursing through his veins. She's an orphaned thirtysomething advertising executive who inherited a spooky stately manor from her late maiden aunt. They fight crime!
Il giorno Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:20:21 +0100 Alexander Larsson alexl@redhat.com ha scritto:
On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 15:59 +0100, Andrea Cimitan wrote:
Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:27:27 -0500 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com ha scritto:
Yes, all I'm saying is that since we will have gnome 2.18 in FC7, it would be good to consider symbolic colors now when discussing a new default theme.
This is not important for a "default" theme since normally people will never edit default themes of their distro... At least i have never do it. It's a nice feature/improvement but i think it's absolutely secondary than fixing bugs (if there are) and deciding the default "palette" of the distro.
I'm not sure about that. For as long as I can remember, not having a way to customize colors in the UI has been a general complaint in each new Gnome or Fedora/Redhat release. Now that we finally have the capability to solve this I think we should try to get it done.
We can wait next gnome release, or at least development versions. When Fedora Core 7 will be release we will gave next gnome versions and so we will have a tool... Then implementing that with murrine will be a lot easier... Please wait... this is not a problem now since we haven't GUI ready to manage it.
Il giorno Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:03:16 -0500 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com ha scritto:
- While these knobs to tweak are certainly nice, the one thing that most people want to tweak in a theme are the colors. I would personally be much more interested in themes which make use of the new symbolic color mechanism in GTK+ 2.10 to create "recolorable" themes.
I've fixed requested bugs of "exported symbols" and gtk symbolic colors. Everything is ok now.
desktop@lists.stg.fedoraproject.org
-
Alexander Larsson -
Andrea Cimitan -
David Nielsen -
Gain Paolo Mureddu -
Leo -
Matthias Clasen -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Peter Gordon -
Ray Strode