Fedora Workstation WG meeting
Minutes should be digestible by Meetbot ( https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Guide#MeetBot_Commands )
Minutes
#startmeeting Workstation WG (2020-04-28) #meetingname workstation #chair cmurf
#topic Rollcall
#info present: cmurf, tpopela, aday, mclasen, otaylor, mcatanzaro, jens, kalev, james, feborges, link #info regrets: neal #info missing: langdon
#topic Approve minutes of 14 & 21 April #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2020-04-21/workstation.20... #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2020-04-24/workstation.20... #agreed Approved - no objections
#topic Announcements
F32 release day Fedora on Lenovo laptops; potential implications for the working group: #link https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-laptops/ - First boot (initial setup as the first thing the user sees, rather than Anaconda) - need to ensure that either language selection is displayed in initial setup or ensure that the correct keyboard layout is predefined for the locale. Some digging required here. It might be good to track that. - ACTION: Michael to investigate. - Disk encryption - how to enable/reprovision?
#topic Status reports Chris is 60% through swap on zram proposal; is currently summarising the hibernation issue
#topic F32 retrospective, and appoint chair for F33 cycle #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/141 #info Review F32 cycle, WG organizational and meeting format changes. Chair and co-chair nominations.
#topic Meeting format
Chris would appreciate feedback on the meeting format. Michael: thinks that things are going well. Thinks that video has been a success. 6 month chair seems good; thinks that Chris has been doing a good job. Allan: posted his feedback in the ticket (as did Chris and Tomas). Kalev: not happy at all. Would prefer IRC meetings. Chris: could we have an IRC meeting every month? Kalev: or a video meeting every month, and IRC at other times? Matthias: we have IRC all the time. Non-weekly meetings are difficult, calendar-wise. #agreed Continue the discussion on the ticket.
#topic Chair/co-chair duration
Kalev: 6 months is too long; would prefer 2/3 months, and the chair can choose the meeting format Chris: perhaps that suggestion could be combined with Allan's idea of the chair delegating more duties
#topic Nominations
Chris would be happy to do it, and perhaps delegate more Allan is happy to carry on as co-chair, would quite like not to do the minutes any more Allan: we have some long-running initiatives which Chris has been leading, which it would be good to resolve for F33. Chris: isn't sure he needs to be chair for that. Michael is happy for Chris to carry on as chair. So is Allan. Chris invites others to put themselves forward as nominees. Kalev is interested, but only if we use IRC. Would change the direction - would focus on getting Flathub preinstalled instead of disk encryption. Also which apps are preinstalled. Some discussion about enabling Flathub by default - see ticket #108
#topic Encryption of system and user data #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/136 #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/82 Discuss short term encryption plan (full disk encryption as it exists today in the installer, which encrypts both system and user data). Last week Lennart and Ray joined us to talk about homed. Ray might report back next week on systemd-homed. It's currently unclear whether systemd-homed is a short-term prospect or a long-term prospect. Question about setting up recovery keys - https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/136#comment-643926 Michael & Matthias: how is a recovery password useful, if you can just forget that one as well? Owen: the fact that it's a recovery password indicates to people that they need a good record of it. Allan: would like to evaluate the full range of issues/requirements in relation to full disk encryption, not just this issue alone. How does this approach to password recovery compare to other approaches? Michael: we should invite people from fedora-devel to participate in the discussion. #action: michael to do this. Jens: what about root password? (as recovery key?)
#topic Blocking on user switching #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/139 What are the parameters by which loss of function should or should not be release blocking? Is it right to block a release on this? Kalev: yes. We have the engineers to fix it. Matthias: depends on how relevant user switching is to us. Allan: there are some multiuser cases where it would be nice if Fedora was appropriate - small labs/offices. Kalev: shared computers at home are relevant too. Allan: other question is how bad the fail state is - does it just not work, or does it bring down the session/system, etc? #agreed User switching should be a release blocker; we're happy for QA to decide on the exact wording. #action Chris to communicate the decision to QA
#topic Workstation Live image is oversize #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/140 Chris: what's the process we want to determine the image size? Kalev: if we want to stick to 2GB, we will need to cut some packages. We're very close to the limit - not much room for manoeuvre. Owen: if we change the limit to 4GB, we wouldn't have any other process to keep the size down. This could imply that we should only increase the limit a small amount. The alternative would be to schedule a size review each development cycle. Matthias: it could be a package review rather than size review - to see what changes have been made. Kalev: it would be good to do this around the same time as the test day. Owen: that might not give us a lot of time to resolve engineering issues. Kalev: yes, we should have the test day before the beta, to give us enough time before the beta release. Chris: would like to review which services are started, too. #action Chris will ask release engineering and QA for their input, and we'll work out the details next week
#topic Guidelines for preinstalled and non-removable apps #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/125 #info Deferred
#endmeeting
I'm slightly confused. Meetbot has two meetings for us today, but both are incomplete compared to the Etherpad.
https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2020-04-28/workstation.20... https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2020-04-28/workstation.20...
So I think meetbot needs a 3rd attempt to digest the current etherpad minutes (which seem to match with what's in this email)?
Chris Murphy
On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:23 AM Michael Catanzaro mcatanzaro@gnome.org wrote:
Fedora Workstation WG meeting
Minutes should be digestible by Meetbot ( https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Guide#MeetBot_Commands )
Minutes
#startmeeting Workstation WG (2020-04-28) #meetingname workstation #chair cmurf
#topic Rollcall
#info present: cmurf, tpopela, aday, mclasen, otaylor, mcatanzaro, jens, kalev, james, feborges, link #info regrets: neal #info missing: langdon
#topic Approve minutes of 14 & 21 April #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2020-04-21/workstation.20... #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2020-04-24/workstation.20... #agreed Approved - no objections
#topic Announcements
F32 release day Fedora on Lenovo laptops; potential implications for the working group: #link https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-laptops/
- First boot (initial setup as the first thing the user sees, rather
than Anaconda) - need to ensure that either language selection is displayed in initial setup or ensure that the correct keyboard layout is predefined for the locale. Some digging required here. It might be good to track that.
- ACTION: Michael to investigate.
- Disk encryption - how to enable/reprovision?
#topic Status reports Chris is 60% through swap on zram proposal; is currently summarising the hibernation issue
#topic F32 retrospective, and appoint chair for F33 cycle #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/141 #info Review F32 cycle, WG organizational and meeting format changes. Chair and co-chair nominations.
#topic Meeting format
Chris would appreciate feedback on the meeting format. Michael: thinks that things are going well. Thinks that video has been a success. 6 month chair seems good; thinks that Chris has been doing a good job. Allan: posted his feedback in the ticket (as did Chris and Tomas). Kalev: not happy at all. Would prefer IRC meetings. Chris: could we have an IRC meeting every month? Kalev: or a video meeting every month, and IRC at other times? Matthias: we have IRC all the time. Non-weekly meetings are difficult, calendar-wise. #agreed Continue the discussion on the ticket.
#topic Chair/co-chair duration
Kalev: 6 months is too long; would prefer 2/3 months, and the chair can choose the meeting format Chris: perhaps that suggestion could be combined with Allan's idea of the chair delegating more duties
#topic Nominations
Chris would be happy to do it, and perhaps delegate more Allan is happy to carry on as co-chair, would quite like not to do the minutes any more Allan: we have some long-running initiatives which Chris has been leading, which it would be good to resolve for F33. Chris: isn't sure he needs to be chair for that. Michael is happy for Chris to carry on as chair. So is Allan. Chris invites others to put themselves forward as nominees. Kalev is interested, but only if we use IRC. Would change the direction
- would focus on getting Flathub preinstalled instead of disk
encryption. Also which apps are preinstalled. Some discussion about enabling Flathub by default - see ticket #108
#topic Encryption of system and user data #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/136 #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/82 Discuss short term encryption plan (full disk encryption as it exists today in the installer, which encrypts both system and user data). Last week Lennart and Ray joined us to talk about homed. Ray might report back next week on systemd-homed. It's currently unclear whether systemd-homed is a short-term prospect or a long-term prospect. Question about setting up recovery keys - https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/136#comment-643926 Michael & Matthias: how is a recovery password useful, if you can just forget that one as well? Owen: the fact that it's a recovery password indicates to people that they need a good record of it. Allan: would like to evaluate the full range of issues/requirements in relation to full disk encryption, not just this issue alone. How does this approach to password recovery compare to other approaches? Michael: we should invite people from fedora-devel to participate in the discussion. #action: michael to do this. Jens: what about root password? (as recovery key?)
#topic Blocking on user switching #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/139 What are the parameters by which loss of function should or should not be release blocking? Is it right to block a release on this? Kalev: yes. We have the engineers to fix it. Matthias: depends on how relevant user switching is to us. Allan: there are some multiuser cases where it would be nice if Fedora was appropriate - small labs/offices. Kalev: shared computers at home are relevant too. Allan: other question is how bad the fail state is - does it just not work, or does it bring down the session/system, etc? #agreed User switching should be a release blocker; we're happy for QA to decide on the exact wording. #action Chris to communicate the decision to QA
#topic Workstation Live image is oversize #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/140 Chris: what's the process we want to determine the image size? Kalev: if we want to stick to 2GB, we will need to cut some packages. We're very close to the limit - not much room for manoeuvre. Owen: if we change the limit to 4GB, we wouldn't have any other process to keep the size down. This could imply that we should only increase the limit a small amount. The alternative would be to schedule a size review each development cycle. Matthias: it could be a package review rather than size review - to see what changes have been made. Kalev: it would be good to do this around the same time as the test day. Owen: that might not give us a lot of time to resolve engineering issues. Kalev: yes, we should have the test day before the beta, to give us enough time before the beta release. Chris: would like to review which services are started, too. #action Chris will ask release engineering and QA for their input, and we'll work out the details next week
#topic Guidelines for preinstalled and non-removable apps #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/125 #info Deferred
#endmeeting
desktop mailing list -- desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to desktop-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/desktop@lists.fedoraproject.or...
On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 12:01 pm, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
I'm slightly confused. Meetbot has two meetings for us today, but both are incomplete compared to the Etherpad.
https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2020-04-28/workstation.20... https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2020-04-28/workstation.20...
So I think meetbot needs a 3rd attempt to digest the current etherpad minutes (which seem to match with what's in this email)?
The first meeting was me realizing that polari doesn't allow pasting more than six lines at once, then giving up right away.
For the second meeting, I tried using kiwiirc. freenode blocked most of the messages due to flood control. At that point, I just gave up.
If having the minutes in meetbot is really important (I don't think it is), then we need a better way to do this, preferably something compatible with polari and which won't be blocked by flood control. (Allan says he was never blocked by flood control, but I don't know why.)
Michael
On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 1:12 pm, Michael Catanzaro mcatanzaro@gnome.org wrote:
For the second meeting, I tried using kiwiirc. freenode blocked most of the messages due to flood control. At that point, I just gave up.
BTW, it blocked most of the middle of the meeting, but did not block the final #endmeeting for some reason even though it was all part of one message. So I really had no chance to salvage that second attempt.
Dear SIr: These days. I have tested fedora and ubuntu20.04 lts. The RAM cost and boot duration of fedora are longer than ubuntu 20.04lts and he fluence is less than ubuntu. I do not know the reason. Yours sincerely swordrong
Michael Catanzaro mcatanzaro@gnome.org 于2020年4月29日周三 上午2:14写道：
On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 1:12 pm, Michael Catanzaro mcatanzaro@gnome.org wrote:
For the second meeting, I tried using kiwiirc. freenode blocked most of the messages due to flood control. At that point, I just gave up.
BTW, it blocked most of the middle of the meeting, but did not block the final #endmeeting for some reason even though it was all part of one message. So I really had no chance to salvage that second attempt.
desktop mailing list -- desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to desktop-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/desktop@lists.fedoraproject.or...
Michael Catanzaro mcatanzaro@gnome.org wrote: ...
If having the minutes in meetbot is really important (I don't think it is), then we need a better way to do this, preferably something compatible with polari and which won't be blocked by flood control.
Having the minutes on meetbot is quite nice, in that it gives you a nicely formatted summary, and a way to browse the archives.
The main issue I've found encountered is that getting the minutes into meetbot is rather labour intensive. On that basis I'd be in favour of dropping it, although it makes me a bit sad.
Allan
On Thu, 2020-04-30 at 15:39 +0100, Allan Day wrote:
Michael Catanzaro mcatanzaro@gnome.org wrote: ...
If having the minutes in meetbot is really important (I don't think it is), then we need a better way to do this, preferably something compatible with polari and which won't be blocked by flood control.
Having the minutes on meetbot is quite nice, in that it gives you a nicely formatted summary, and a way to browse the archives.
I do find this very useful too. I frequently consult these archives for multiple groups (not just QA). Quite often I'll be interested in some past decision and the ticket or mailing list thread will refer to a meeting discussion; it's very useful that the chances of the full log and minutes of that meeting being in the meetbot archive (because almost all teams use meetbot) is very high. It would be much more of a pain to have to keep a mental list of 'team A uses system foo and keeps the minutes at bar, team B uses system meep and keeps the minutes at moo...'
On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 11:31 AM Adam Williamson adamwill@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Thu, 2020-04-30 at 15:39 +0100, Allan Day wrote:
Michael Catanzaro mcatanzaro@gnome.org wrote: ...
If having the minutes in meetbot is really important (I don't think it is), then we need a better way to do this, preferably something compatible with polari and which won't be blocked by flood control.
Having the minutes on meetbot is quite nice, in that it gives you a nicely formatted summary, and a way to browse the archives.
I do find this very useful too. I frequently consult these archives for multiple groups (not just QA). Quite often I'll be interested in some past decision and the ticket or mailing list thread will refer to a meeting discussion; it's very useful that the chances of the full log and minutes of that meeting being in the meetbot archive (because almost all teams use meetbot) is very high. It would be much more of a pain to have to keep a mental list of 'team A uses system foo and keeps the minutes at bar, team B uses system meep and keeps the minutes at moo...'
I use meetbot in the same way for the same reason. The pain point with meetbot is if you get the meeting name wrong, and then searching for minutes could be any number of "names". Sometimes I have to iterate that to find what I'm looking for. But at least I'm iterating in that one place.
This seems to have worked.
Minutes: https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2020-04-30/workstation.20... Minutes (text): https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2020-04-30/workstation.20... Log: https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2020-04-30/workstation.20...
I did three pastes.
1. #startmeeting Workstation WG (2020-04-28) #meetingname workstation #chair chrismurphy
2. Bulk of the meeting notes as found on the Etherpad. I removed all blank lines. This was about 74 line paste, which weechat didn't complain about. And then I waited until the last topic was changed by zodbot.
3. #endmeeting
Took me longer to write this email. :-D
--- Chris Murphy
Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote: ...
This seems to have worked.
Pasting the minutes has always worked fine for me. The paint points have been:
- having to check the meeting calendar to check that you're not interrupting a meeting - waiting for meetbot to chew through the minutes (generally takes a little while) - writing the email to fedora-desktop
If we could have a dedicated IRC channel just for pasting minutes, and we didn't have to manually send the email to the list, that would make the process much more acceptable.
Allan
Can you try this again this week, Chris?
I tried two IRC clients:
* polari blocks long messages outright * kiwiirc.com locks up WebKit and causes large CPU usage * kiwiirc.com in Firefox avoids the lockup but hits the rate-limiting problem
If feeding the minutes into meetbot is easy for you, maybe it's probably best if you handle it? I'm now regretting that I volunteered for this. :D
Michael
On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 2:13 PM Michael Catanzaro mcatanzaro@gnome.org wrote:
If having the minutes in meetbot is really important (I don't think it is), then we need a better way to do this, preferably something
Having the minutes in meetbot is nice, but if it's a problem for how the
WG....works, I won't complain about it not being there. But one nice thing about it is that the minutes are automatically sent to the meetingminutes mailing list. I use that to be able to quickly skim meetings to watch for issues at a program level. So I'd ask that if you give up on using Zodbot to record minutes that someone sends an email meetingminutes list with minutes after they're approved.
On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 10:50 am, Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
So I'd ask that if you give up on using Zodbot to record minutes that someone sends an email meetingminutes list with minutes after they're approved.
Sure, I can mail the list.
Chris, Allan, do you want me to wait until the minutes are actually approved (one week later)? I sent these immediately after the meeting because we haven't been waiting for formal approval before sending the minutes, perhaps on the assumption that we can correct them a week later in the unlikely event anyone objects to something in the minutes.
On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 9:36 AM Michael Catanzaro mcatanzaro@gnome.org wrote:
On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 10:50 am, Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
So I'd ask that if you give up on using Zodbot to record minutes that someone sends an email meetingminutes list with minutes after they're approved.
Sure, I can mail the list.
Chris, Allan, do you want me to wait until the minutes are actually approved (one week later)? I sent these immediately after the meeting because we haven't been waiting for formal approval before sending the minutes, perhaps on the assumption that we can correct them a week later in the unlikely event anyone objects to something in the minutes.
tl;dr - Posting the minutes to desktop@ list the same day as the meeting is OK, perhaps even ideal. Usually I review the etherpad right after the meeting. But if it's posted later, it's fine, I'll adapt.
The thing being approved is "the minutes as found at the following URL". The URL points to a static body of text that can't practically be changed, yet can be viewed by all, and therefore it's unambiguous what is being approved. Whether the URL is meetbot or desktop@ list, I have no preference. But I think it should be a URL in Fedora infra since it's the official record.
As for corrections, in order of preference: (a) correct directly in the etherpad during or following the meeting (b) once the minutes email is posted, reply to that email with a correction; and both URLs will be presented as "the minutes as amended" for approval at the next meeting, (c) verbally state the correction at the next meeting. All of these are unambiguous. And everyone has the option to object if, for example, Jens decides to insert a Brandenburg Concerto as a correction, yet he didn't actually play it during the previous meeting.
desktop@lists.stg.fedoraproject.org
-
Adam Williamson -
Allan Day -
Ben Cotton -
Chris Murphy -
Michael Catanzaro -
sword rong