Valent Turkovic wrote:
But please, please make it a lot easier on non-geek people so that they can also use this great stuff called fedora. And belive me there are people wanting to do so, but they can't because we don't let them. They need some features to be enabled by default or else they won't know how that they even exist.
I feel like the real concern voiced by Valent Turkovic has been missed by all three of the responses I saw. What are we expecting the average Joe who wants to try out this cool new thing called Linux to feel? He can load it up and see a pretty twisty graphic but then can't get the simplest thing like web browsing to work without installing a lot of extra packages that are only obvious by a long Google search, abuse on the forums (RTFM) or a previous experience.
If you are going to build a live CD (Excellent Idea by the way) for people to try out Linux, then concentrate on the total experience. Look at what "typical" users do and make sure they have success. Valent hit the nail on the head....KDE...GNOME....why should that matter? GNOME doesn't work any better with Totem BTW.
Rick Stuart wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
But please, please make it a lot easier on non-geek people so that they can also use this great stuff called fedora. And belive me there are people wanting to do so, but they can't because we don't let them. They need some features to be enabled by default or else they won't know how that they even exist.
I feel like the real concern voiced by Valent Turkovic has been missed by all three of the responses I saw. What are we expecting the average Joe who wants to try out this cool new thing called Linux to feel? He can load it up and see a pretty twisty graphic but then can't get the simplest thing like web browsing to work without installing a lot of extra packages that are only obvious by a long Google search, abuse on the forums (RTFM) or a previous experience.
That is a useful thing to keep in mind but when you are using test releases coming across bugs is not unexpected. Working with developers by reporting those bugs is more useful than calling things a disaster.
Rahul
That is a useful thing to keep in mind but when you are using test releases coming across bugs is not unexpected. Working with developers by reporting those bugs is more useful than calling things a disaster.
Rahul
It was hard for me to write this proposal. Very hard. Because it forces change, and change is never welcomed. Because it's bold, and boldness tends to attract enmity. Because it's probably going to be ignored. And because it may add more complexity to an issue that is already complex. Also keep in mind that English is not my mother tongue.
But in the end, I thought this issue was important, and here we are.
From what I've heard, whole flame wars regarding multimedia and
average user desktop experience have happened before, and they led to nothing. Why not end this issue once and for all, and go on with more important matters?
Valent Turkovic wrote:
It was hard for me to write this proposal. Very hard. Because it forces change, and change is never welcomed. Because it's bold, and boldness tends to attract enmity. Because it's probably going to be ignored. And because it may add more complexity to an issue that is already complex. Also keep in mind that English is not my mother tongue.
No. Because it is not constructive and it does not say anything new that was not already said and countered.
But in the end, I thought this issue was important, and here we are.
From what I've heard, whole flame wars regarding multimedia and
average user desktop experience have happened before, and they led to nothing. Why not end this issue once and for all, and go on with more important matters?
A lot of things happened. For example with Fedora 7 is very easy for someone living in the "free world" to create a derivative spin and put in it whatever multimedia applications he want and redistribute it (probably under a different name), even as a LiveCD.
by reporting those bugs is more useful than calling things a disaster.
Rahul
I also must point out that I really like Fedora the most of all other distros. And I think that Fedora/REdHat developers do a great job. But still some changes need to be done.
On Tuesday 17 April 2007 18:54:09 Rick Stuart wrote:
I feel like the real concern voiced by Valent Turkovic has been missed by all three of the responses I saw. What are we expecting the average Joe who wants to try out this cool new thing called Linux to feel? He can load it up and see a pretty twisty graphic but then can't get the simplest thing like web browsing to work without installing a lot of extra packages that are only obvious by a long Google search, abuse on the forums (RTFM) or a previous experience.
If you are going to build a live CD (Excellent Idea by the way) for people to try out Linux, then concentrate on the total experience. Look at what "typical" users do and make sure they have success. Valent hit the nail on the head....KDE...GNOME....why should that matter? GNOME doesn't work any better with Totem BTW.
These comments are unfounded. You certainly can browse the web all you want. If you run across a site that needs flash, firefix helpfully directs you to Adobe/macromedia where they have a rpm already for you that integrates nicely. And there is _plenty_ of web space out there without proprietary crap on them. To state that you can't do the simplest things like web browsing is a bunch of horse crap and FUD.
Furthermore, Totem works just fine regardless of Gnome or KDE, the OP didn't _use_ totem. If you're going to send slanderous comments at least have the courtesy of backing them up with facts, proof, and bug numbers.
These comments are unfounded. You certainly can browse the web all you want. If you run across a site that needs flash, firefix helpfully directs you to Adobe/macromedia where they have a rpm already for you that integrates nicely. And there is _plenty_ of web space out there without proprietary crap on them. To state that you can't do the simplest things like web browsing is a bunch of horse crap and FUD.
You should know what you are talking about, because when I tested this in Fedora 7 test 3 it doesn't work - and also it doesn't work in FC6.
If you visit any page with flash content Firefox suggests installing Flash plugin from Adobe, but install fails every time.
I filed a bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=236881
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 05:09:48 Valent Turkovic wrote:
You should know what you are talking about, because when I tested this in Fedora 7 test 3 it doesn't work - and also it doesn't work in FC6.
If you visit any page with flash content Firefox suggests installing Flash plugin from Adobe, but install fails every time.
I filed a bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=236881
More information than "fails to install" would be nice. What is the failure report? Even a screenshot?
courtesy of backing them up with facts, proof, and bug numbers.
I need a suggestion where to file my bug regarding kaboodle experience with being a default player for ogg theora files when it shouldn't be?
Under which component should I post the bug under?
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 05:24:09 Valent Turkovic wrote:
I need a suggestion where to file my bug regarding kaboodle experience with being a default player for ogg theora files when it shouldn't be?
Under which component should I post the bug under?
kaboodle in Fedora Extras, however it won't be the "default" player of any spin for F7.
On 18/04/07, Rick Stuart stuart.cr@gmail.com wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
But please, please make it a lot easier on non-geek people so that they can also use this great stuff called fedora. And belive me there are people wanting to do so, but they can't because we don't let them. They need some features to be enabled by default or else they won't know how that they even exist.
I feel like the real concern voiced by Valent Turkovic has been missed by all three of the responses I saw. What are we expecting the average Joe who wants to try out this cool new thing called Linux to feel? He can load it up and see a pretty twisty graphic but then can't get the simplest thing like web browsing to work without installing a lot of extra packages that are only obvious by a long Google search, abuse on the forums (RTFM) or a previous experience.
If you are going to build a live CD (Excellent Idea by the way) for people to try out Linux, then concentrate on the total experience. Look at what "typical" users do and make sure they have success. Valent hit the nail on the head....KDE...GNOME....why should that matter? GNOME doesn't work any better with Totem BTW.
That's actually a good argument for NOT releasing a live CD. I've always run by the rule that if I can't deliver what a customer (or woman) wants, then I don't do it at all. Why disappoint by explicitly demonstrating that you cannot deliver?
If Fedora is bound by law NOT to deliver a comfortable user experience for those unfamiliar with it, then why is effort being exerted to make Fedora accessible to them via LiveCD?
Who is the LiveCD intended for? What is it's purpose? If it's purpose is to show off Fedora to those unfamiliar with it, then what are we showing them? That they cannot play media files, that functionality has been removed from the standard Open Office, and such? Without so much as a link to the documentation that explains the situation, and what one can do to enable these features?
Fedora is obviously a fast learning curve distro: one cannot simply walk right up to it and use it without some prior knowledge. Thus, creating a LiveCD and making it easy to walk right up and use it will only show these people that Fedora (and possible Linux in general) is difficult to use.
Dotan Cohen
On 4/18/07, Dotan Cohen dotancohen@gmail.com wrote:
On 18/04/07, Rick Stuart stuart.cr@gmail.com wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
But please, please make it a lot easier on non-geek people so that they can also use this great stuff called fedora. And belive me there are people wanting to do so, but they can't because we don't let them. They need some features to be enabled by default or else they won't know how that they even exist.
I feel like the real concern voiced by Valent Turkovic has been missed by all three of the responses I saw. What are we expecting the average Joe who wants to try out this cool new thing called Linux to feel? He can load it up and see a pretty twisty graphic but then can't get the simplest thing like web browsing to work without installing a lot of extra packages that are only obvious by a long Google search, abuse on the forums (RTFM) or a previous experience.
If you are going to build a live CD (Excellent Idea by the way) for people to try out Linux, then concentrate on the total experience. Look at what "typical" users do and make sure they have success. Valent hit the nail on the head....KDE...GNOME....why should that matter? GNOME doesn't work any better with Totem BTW.
That's actually a good argument for NOT releasing a live CD. I've always run by the rule that if I can't deliver what a customer (or woman) wants, then I don't do it at all. Why disappoint by explicitly demonstrating that you cannot deliver?
If Fedora is bound by law NOT to deliver a comfortable user experience for those unfamiliar with it, then why is effort being exerted to make Fedora accessible to them via LiveCD?
Who is the LiveCD intended for? What is it's purpose? If it's purpose is to show off Fedora to those unfamiliar with it, then what are we showing them? That they cannot play media files, that functionality has been removed from the standard Open Office, and such? Without so much as a link to the documentation that explains the situation, and what one can do to enable these features?
Fedora is obviously a fast learning curve distro: one cannot simply walk right up to it and use it without some prior knowledge. Thus, creating a LiveCD and making it easy to walk right up and use it will only show these people that Fedora (and possible Linux in general) is difficult to use.
Dotan Cohen
+1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora?
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 05:31:30 Arthur Pemberton wrote:
+1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora?
No software is perfect, and surprise you can use yum from the LiveCD to add more software.
There are plenty of usage cases outside the "I want to listen to mp3s" crowd.
On 18/04/07, Jesse Keating jkeating@redhat.com wrote:
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 05:31:30 Arthur Pemberton wrote:
+1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora?
No software is perfect, and surprise you can use yum from the LiveCD to add more software.
There are plenty of usage cases outside the "I want to listen to mp3s" crowd.
Very common workflows (or playflows) include the following:
1) Web browsing: the viewing of HTML pages 2) Email: the downloading, display, and sending of electronic mail 3) Chatting: communicating with other humans via one (or more) or the following chat protocols: yahoo, msn, icq 4) Listening to audio: the playback of mp3 files 5) Watching video: the playback of mpg, avi, and wmv files 6) Viewing pictures: the display of jpeg files 7) Word Processing: creating, editing, and display of text documents in txt, rtf, and doc formats 8) Spreadsheet: creating, editing, and display of spreadsheets in excel format
I'm sure there's more that I missed. But these are examples of the most basic functions that any computer (and operating system) are expected to perform. If an OS cannot do any of these, then it is not adequate for general use. Fedora is thus bound by law to be inadequate for general use out of the box. That is easily fixed by those in the know, but not by a passer-by who downloads the distro (or LiveCD) and plays around with it.
Again I ask: to whom is the official LiveCD aimed at? I do not think that Redhat can (legally) produce a LiveCD suitable for the general public. Rather, this is better left to the community, who are not bound by such restrictive laws, and can legally create and distribute such a disk. The only question for Redhat is should Redhat allow the community to use the Fedora name on the disk.
Dotan Cohen
http://technology-sleuth.com/short_answer/why_are_internet_greeting_cards_da... http://what-is-what.com/what_is/wikipedia.html
Dotan Cohen wrote:
Very common workflows (or playflows) include the following:
- Web browsing: the viewing of HTML pages
- Email: the downloading, display, and sending of electronic mail
- Chatting: communicating with other humans via one (or more) or the
following chat protocols: yahoo, msn, icq 4) Listening to audio: the playback of mp3 files 5) Watching video: the playback of mpg, avi, and wmv files 6) Viewing pictures: the display of jpeg files 7) Word Processing: creating, editing, and display of text documents in txt, rtf, and doc formats 8) Spreadsheet: creating, editing, and display of spreadsheets in excel format
I'm sure there's more that I missed. But these are examples of the most basic functions that any computer (and operating system) are expected to perform. If an OS cannot do any of these, then it is not adequate for general use. Fedora is thus bound by law to be inadequate
Your judgment is flawed: Windows Vista can't do a lot of those tasks out of the box and need additional software which have to be downloaded or purchased separately (to pick from your list: spreadsheets, video files with certain codecs or in certain formats, some chat protocols).
You are also unfair with your criteria, the conditions are formulated to fit your predefined conclusion: - for chat you request "one or more of the" (BTW, you forgot Jaber/Google Talk from the list) - for video you request all formats (mpg, avi, wmv) - for audio you request one specific format, MP3, but forget about AAC, WAV, OGG, Audio CD - those are also audio (note that Fedora 7 should have preconfigured OOTB a few OGG internet radio stations).
for general use out of the box. That is easily fixed by those in the know, but not by a passer-by who downloads the distro (or LiveCD) and plays around with it.
This could be said also for any other operating system
Again I ask: to whom is the official LiveCD aimed at? I do not think that Redhat can (legally) produce a LiveCD suitable for the general public. Rather, this is better left to the community, who are not bound by such restrictive laws, and can legally create and distribute such a disk. The only question for Redhat is should Redhat allow the community to use the Fedora name on the disk.
There was a lot of talk about what can be a derived distro and still keep the Fedora name, one of the ideas was that it have to be a subset of Core + Extras, but I don't remember the conclusion.
You know, it can have a different name and put on the disk "gOldSense, based on Fedora" - you know, as gNewSense is a freer version of Ubuntu, gOldSense could be a less free version of Fedora :p
On 18/04/07, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
Very common workflows (or playflows) include the following:
- Web browsing: the viewing of HTML pages
- Email: the downloading, display, and sending of electronic mail
- Chatting: communicating with other humans via one (or more) or the
following chat protocols: yahoo, msn, icq 4) Listening to audio: the playback of mp3 files 5) Watching video: the playback of mpg, avi, and wmv files 6) Viewing pictures: the display of jpeg files 7) Word Processing: creating, editing, and display of text documents in txt, rtf, and doc formats 8) Spreadsheet: creating, editing, and display of spreadsheets in excel format
I'm sure there's more that I missed. But these are examples of the most basic functions that any computer (and operating system) are expected to perform. If an OS cannot do any of these, then it is not adequate for general use. Fedora is thus bound by law to be inadequate
Your judgment is flawed: Windows Vista can't do a lot of those tasks out of the box and need additional software which have to be downloaded or purchased separately (to pick from your list: spreadsheets, video files with certain codecs or in certain formats, some chat protocols).
That does not make my judgment flawed: I never implied that Vista is an adequate operating system.
You are also unfair with your criteria, the conditions are formulated to fit your predefined conclusion:
- for chat you request "one or more of the" (BTW, you forgot
Jaber/Google Talk from the list)
I mentioned that I've most certainly forgot some things. However, Jaber is nowhere near as popular as msn/icq/yahoo are.
- for video you request all formats (mpg, avi, wmv)
Those are very, very common.
- for audio you request one specific format, MP3, but forget about AAC,
WAV, OGG, Audio CD - those are also audio (note that Fedora 7 should have preconfigured OOTB a few OGG internet radio stations).
AAC and OGG are not common formats. I should have mentioned wav, audio CD and wma.
for general use out of the box. That is easily fixed by those in the know, but not by a passer-by who downloads the distro (or LiveCD) and plays around with it.
This could be said also for any other operating system
Correct. Ubuntu and XP (I can't talk for Vista), however, make an effort to inform the user how to set up the system to use the formats with the OS. Ubuntu goes so far as to ask "would you like me to install mp3 support?" right inside Amarok. Click Yes, and it goes and fetches the codec, installs it, and plays the file in under 45 seconds (I timed it the second time I did it). I understand that Fedora cannot legally do this. Which is why I say don't push Fedora to the general user. IE, don't create a LiveCD.
Again I ask: to whom is the official LiveCD aimed at? I do not think that Redhat can (legally) produce a LiveCD suitable for the general public. Rather, this is better left to the community, who are not bound by such restrictive laws, and can legally create and distribute such a disk. The only question for Redhat is should Redhat allow the community to use the Fedora name on the disk.
There was a lot of talk about what can be a derived distro and still keep the Fedora name, one of the ideas was that it have to be a subset of Core + Extras, but I don't remember the conclusion.
I remember that. I also don't remember the conclusion (I don't think there was one) but it's irrelevant to this thread.
You know, it can have a different name and put on the disk "gOldSense, based on Fedora" - you know, as gNewSense is a freer version of Ubuntu, gOldSense could be a less free version of Fedora :p
Dotan Cohen
http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/lyrics/64/64/beatles/a_hard_day_s_night.html http://terriblelyrics.com
On Wed, 2007-04-18 at 17:00 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 18/04/07, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
<snip>
- for audio you request one specific format, MP3, but forget about AAC,
WAV, OGG, Audio CD - those are also audio (note that Fedora 7 should have preconfigured OOTB a few OGG internet radio stations).
AAC and OGG are not common formats. I should have mentioned wav, audio CD and wma.
What makes you say AAC isn't popular? It's used in the PSP/iPod downloads on Google Video, it's the default audio codec for MPEG-4 and newer QuickTime versions.
Anything coming out of Apple is AAC audio. I'd consider it popular...
On 18/04/07, Bastien Nocera bnocera@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 2007-04-18 at 17:00 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 18/04/07, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
<snip> > > - for audio you request one specific format, MP3, but forget about AAC, > > WAV, OGG, Audio CD - those are also audio (note that Fedora 7 should > > have preconfigured OOTB a few OGG internet radio stations). > > AAC and OGG are not common formats. I should have mentioned wav, audio > CD and wma.
What makes you say AAC isn't popular? It's used in the PSP/iPod downloads on Google Video, it's the default audio codec for MPEG-4 and newer QuickTime versions.
Anything coming out of Apple is AAC audio. I'd consider it popular...
Alright, for arguments sake we'll add it to the list.
Dotan Cohen
http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/317/lonestar.html http://what-is-what.com/what_is/xml.html
Dotan Cohen wrote:
Correct. Ubuntu and XP (I can't talk for Vista), however, make an effort to inform the user how to set up the system to use the formats with the OS. Ubuntu goes so far as to ask "would you like me to install mp3 support?" right inside Amarok. Click Yes, and it goes and fetches the codec, installs it, and plays the file in under 45 seconds (I timed it the second time I did it). I understand that Fedora cannot legally do this.
We *can* legally do this. There are atleast two ways.
1) Include proprietary software by default which we don't want to do but not for legal reasons.
2) Optionally provide them a way to install software like how Firefox installs flash plugin. The MP3 codec from Fluendo has a patent license and is under the MIT X11 license and available for free for example.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureCodecBuddy
Which is why I say don't push Fedora to the general
user. IE, don't create a LiveCD.
You equate Live CD with a very specific use case while there are many others you have not considered at all.
There was a lot of talk about what can be a derived distro and still keep the Fedora name, one of the ideas was that it have to be a subset of Core + Extras, but I don't remember the conclusion.
I remember that. I also don't remember the conclusion (I don't think there was one) but it's irrelevant to this thread.
We did have a conclusion. If you include any combination of official Fedora packages and want to have to do a official release talk to Fedora Project Board. Unofficial releases can be done by anyone. The fact tools like Pungi and live cd tools are part of Fedora and allow anyone to create Fedora variants easily is a very relevant part of this discussion.
Rahul
On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
Correct. Ubuntu and XP (I can't talk for Vista), however, make an effort to inform the user how to set up the system to use the formats with the OS. Ubuntu goes so far as to ask "would you like me to install mp3 support?" right inside Amarok. Click Yes, and it goes and fetches the codec, installs it, and plays the file in under 45 seconds (I timed it the second time I did it). I understand that Fedora cannot legally do this.
We *can* legally do this. There are atleast two ways.
- Include proprietary software by default which we don't want to do but
not for legal reasons.
- Optionally provide them a way to install software like how Firefox
installs flash plugin. The MP3 codec from Fluendo has a patent license and is under the MIT X11 license and available for free for example.
Excellent. This is much needed, and will make Fedora much more accessable.
Which is why I say don't push Fedora to the general user. IE, don't create a LiveCD.
You equate Live CD with a very specific use case while there are many others you have not considered at all.
Of course I consider the other uses. I personally use Fedora at home but carry a Slax disk with me so I can do something useful with the few university machines that I've identified with no password on the bios. But a Fedora LiveCD will be used to show off Linux to potential converts, and Fedora specifically is not good for that purpose (no media support, etc). However, the CodecBuddy may very well be the answer to that.
I'm being stuborn because I've turned a few people on to Linux, and I know that Fedora is a bad first experience. Don't get me wrong: I use Fedora at home after toying with SUSE, [K]Ubuntu, and a few others. I simply love Fedora. Fedora ships with the latest stable Digikam, KDE, etc... everything but Firefox. Therefore Fedora has features other distros simply cannot match while retaining Fedora's (relative) stability. However, those new to Linux need mp3 support, amoung other things that stock Fedora cannot legally provide. Exposing these people to Fedora will scare them away from Linux in general.
There was a lot of talk about what can be a derived distro and still keep the Fedora name, one of the ideas was that it have to be a subset of Core + Extras, but I don't remember the conclusion.
I remember that. I also don't remember the conclusion (I don't think there was one) but it's irrelevant to this thread.
We did have a conclusion. If you include any combination of official Fedora packages and want to have to do a official release talk to Fedora Project Board. Unofficial releases can be done by anyone. The fact tools like Pungi and live cd tools are part of Fedora and allow anyone to create Fedora variants easily is a very relevant part of this discussion.
I was referring to unofficial releases. I wasn't sure if unofficial releases could use the name Fedora.
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com/what_is/open_source.html http://technology-sleuth.com/long_answer/what_is_a_cellphone.html
Dotan Cohen wrote:
I'm being stuborn because I've turned a few people on to Linux, and I know that Fedora is a bad first experience. Don't get me wrong: I use Fedora at home after toying with SUSE, [K]Ubuntu, and a few others. I simply love Fedora. Fedora ships with the latest stable Digikam, KDE, etc... everything but Firefox. Therefore Fedora has features other distros simply cannot match while retaining Fedora's (relative) stability. However, those new to Linux need mp3 support, amoung other things that stock Fedora cannot legally provide. Exposing these people to Fedora will scare them away from Linux in general.
SUSE or Ubuntu does not play any proprietary codecs by default nor do install proprietary drivers. Fedora is very much in par in these cases and sometimes a better introduction. Compiz integration for example was much better in Fedora which Ubuntu has copied over in their upcoming release. At any rate the introduction of live images does not change the composition of software included in this context. Again, What exactly is it that you want us to do?
I was referring to unofficial releases. I wasn't sure if unofficial releases could use the name Fedora.
If you redistributing it and if you include third party software you have to rebrand your image. Private use is fine in any form. I think live image tools has a feature in it's roadmap to do this easily.
Rahul
On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
I'm being stuborn because I've turned a few people on to Linux, and I know that Fedora is a bad first experience. Don't get me wrong: I use Fedora at home after toying with SUSE, [K]Ubuntu, and a few others. I simply love Fedora. Fedora ships with the latest stable Digikam, KDE, etc... everything but Firefox. Therefore Fedora has features other distros simply cannot match while retaining Fedora's (relative) stability. However, those new to Linux need mp3 support, amoung other things that stock Fedora cannot legally provide. Exposing these people to Fedora will scare them away from Linux in general.
SUSE or Ubuntu does not play any proprietary codecs by default nor do install proprietary drivers. Fedora is very much in par in these cases and sometimes a better introduction. Compiz integration for example was much better in Fedora which Ubuntu has copied over in their upcoming release. At any rate the introduction of live images does not change the composition of software included in this context. Again, What exactly is it that you want us to do?
Kubuntu 6.10 most certainly does install proprietary codecs upon demand, right inside Amarok. Very slick, and it is a make-or-break deal for a lot of new users. Compiz in Fedora is certainly true, but eye-candy is not a deal maker-or-breaker.
I entered the discussion not with the intention of telling you what to do, rather, to make you aware of the possibility of scaring people away with it. The inclusion of said CodecBuddy will likely change that.
I was referring to unofficial releases. I wasn't sure if unofficial releases could use the name Fedora.
If you redistributing it and if you include third party software you have to rebrand your image. Private use is fine in any form. I think live image tools has a feature in it's roadmap to do this easily.
I don't intend on distributing a LiveCD of my own, which is why I said that the point is currently irrelevant. Though, I may just spin one to learn a bit.
Dotan Cohen
http://technology-sleuth.com/technical_answer/what_is_a_router.html http://music-liriks.com
Dotan Cohen wrote:
Kubuntu 6.10 most certainly does install proprietary codecs upon demand, right inside Amarok.
That does not contradict what I said. I was only talking about software included by default. Do you think that previous of Kubuntu or all versions of OpenSUSE "scared" people?
Very slick, and it is a make-or-break
deal for a lot of new users. Compiz in Fedora is certainly true, but eye-candy is not a deal maker-or-breaker.
Sure it is for many people. Just visit some popular Linux related websites and read the news or comments.
I entered the discussion not with the intention of telling you what to do, rather, to make you aware of the possibility of scaring people away with it. The inclusion of said CodecBuddy will likely change that.
A few mails back you explicitly said several times that you wanted us to drop creating a Live image. I guess you changed your opinion. Now that we are aware of your opinion that some users might get "scared" ,how does a introduction of a Live CD change anything? Those very same people might have tried non-live CD versions and had the same effect.
Rahul
Hi,
This list of for discussions about *development* for the Fedora desktop, not whether people thinks live CD's are effective for the mission of the project or similar.
Can you please take this thread elsewhere? Thanks!
David
On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
Kubuntu 6.10 most certainly does install proprietary codecs upon demand, right inside Amarok.
That does not contradict what I said. I was only talking about software included by default. Do you think that previous of Kubuntu or all versions of OpenSUSE "scared" people?
[K]ubuntu had always had the goal of being simple for new users, a goal that I understand is not on Fedora's priority agenda.
Very slick, and it is a make-or-break
deal for a lot of new users. Compiz in Fedora is certainly true, but eye-candy is not a deal maker-or-breaker.
Sure it is for many people. Just visit some popular Linux related websites and read the news or comments.
Doesn't seem so, but games certainly do.
I entered the discussion not with the intention of telling you what to do, rather, to make you aware of the possibility of scaring people away with it. The inclusion of said CodecBuddy will likely change that.
A few mails back you explicitly said several times that you wanted us to drop creating a Live image. I guess you changed your opinion. Now that we are aware of your opinion that some users might get "scared" ,how does a introduction of a Live CD change anything? Those very same people might have tried non-live CD versions and had the same effect.
Yes, the inclusion of CodecBuddy will certainly help remove the impression that Linux is only for CS majors, geeks, and those who wish to learn a new profession in order to operate thier computer. I repeat, I'm all for the advancement of Fedora, but I'm against blindly jumping into things that may have a negative effect. It was important to me to display a scenario where the LiveCD may actually hurt the advancement of Fedora.
CodecBuddy is not yet included in FC7 so far as I can tell (the VM image I downloaded was test1, but not much progress seems to have been made on that front since). I'll download test3 and see if I can file some bugs on it.
Dotan Cohen
http://technology-sleuth.com/long_answer/what_is_a_firewall.html http://what-is-what.com/what_is/copyleft.html
Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
[K]ubuntu had always had the goal of being simple for new users, a goal that I understand is not on Fedora's priority agenda.
Your understanding is wrong. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives and http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Usability.
Sure it is for many people. Just visit some popular Linux related websites and read the news or comments.
Doesn't seem so, but games certainly do.
Then you are having tunnel vision. At any rate if you don't have anything to contribute towards desktop development this is the wrong forum for expressing your opinions.
Rahul
On 19/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
[K]ubuntu had always had the goal of being simple for new users, a goal that I understand is not on Fedora's priority agenda.
Your understanding is wrong. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives
Nowhere in that document is it even implied that Fedora should be simple for new users. The closest that I found was this: "To emphasize usability and a "just works" philosophy in default configurations and feature designs." CodecBuddy will help in that respect.
Nor here. The closest was this text at the top: "The Fedora Usability SIG (Special Interest Group) aims to provide coherence, accessibility and intuitivity for all people using Fedora and its associated resources. Fedora should provide a simple and coherent interface. Improving Fedora end-users experience is our job." However, again no specific mention of new users.
Sure it is for many people. Just visit some popular Linux related websites and read the news or comments.
Doesn't seem so, but games certainly do.
Then you are having tunnel vision. At any rate if you don't have anything to contribute towards desktop development this is the wrong forum for expressing your opinions.
I'm certain that you are more up to speed in what users want than I am: that's not my profession. But of all the arguments I've heard from users who want to try something other than Windows, I've never (never!) been told that they are looking for more eye candy or that they are unsatisfied with the look of Windows XP (or 98 in two cases).
I again state that I am not expressing my own opinions. My opinions do not matter: I know to configure KDE exactly how I want it, and I know how to install the programs and libraries that I need. Partly in thanks to you, Rahul, and to the rest of the Fedora community. However, I am constantly discussing what people like and dislike about their computers (I don't say 'operating system': many users don't know the difference). I talk to my mother in law, the librarians, people on the bus, friends, family, other students, children that I tutor in math, my professors, the university and faculty staff, even the armed security guards. I'm rather interested in the subject and I dare say that I know what I'm talking about. I ask questions, I don't say words such as "Linux", "Windows", "operating system", "Internet Explorer", "Firefox", and the like. I know why most people would use Firefox instead of IE, and why those same people would use Windows over Fedora, without ever mentioning the products names. When I insist on something on the subject, it's not because I want to see my favorite configuration become the default one.
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com/what_is/internet.html http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/416/queen.html
Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 19/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
[K]ubuntu had always had the goal of being simple for new users, a goal that I understand is not on Fedora's priority agenda.
Your understanding is wrong. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives
Nowhere in that document is it even implied that Fedora should be simple for new users. The closest that I found was this: "To emphasize usability and a "just works" philosophy in default configurations and feature designs."
... which automatically makes it simple for *everyone* including new users. It would be nice if you could drop having a argument just for the sake of it. You expressed a opinion that we need to drop creating live images which we are not going to do for reasons explained earlier. You also feel that new users might get scared because people might come across a Fedora live image and try it out. I am not sure we can or need to avoid that. Anything else?
Rahul
On 19/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 19/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
[K]ubuntu had always had the goal of being simple for new users, a goal that I understand is not on Fedora's priority agenda.
Your understanding is wrong. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives
Nowhere in that document is it even implied that Fedora should be simple for new users. The closest that I found was this: "To emphasize usability and a "just works" philosophy in default configurations and feature designs."
... which automatically makes it simple for *everyone* including new users. It would be nice if you could drop having a argument just for the sake of it.
Until end users can click on an mp3 file, and keep clicking dialogs until it plays (with no googling/searching/reading and no prior knowledge) then Fedora will not be simple for new users. Additionally, I didn't think that Fedora wanted to get to that point until I saw CodecBuddy.
Rahul, please stop thinking that I am arguing for the sake of it. I am pointing out weaknesses and other traits in my favorite Linux distro and I have been not once used argumentive terms, agression, nor insulting remarks. I am not arguing, rather, I am presenting a case.
You expressed a opinion that we need to drop creating live images which we are not going to do for reasons explained earlier.
Obviously I don't want the LiveCD project to be dropped. But I emphasize the need to consider it's impact. When a general turns down a plan for arresting a terrorist, do I think that he does not want the terrorist arrested? Obviously not. But he has concerns regarding the planned execution of the mission and stresses the importance of certain aspects. It's not personal, and it's certainly not an argument.
You also feel that new users might get scared because people might come across a Fedora live image and try it out. I am not sure we can or need to avoid that. Anything else?
We cannot avoid that, therefore we must ensure that the LiveCD does not deter them. Do you disagree with that? If so (and you have every right to disagree) then please tell me how it would benefit Fedora if new users try the LiveCD, find it impossible to do what they need, and write off Linux (not just Fedora) as impossible to use. That is not a one-in-a-million hypothetical situation. I would imagine (this is not based upon research) that a large (over 10 or even 20 percent) of downloads would be for this purpose.
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com/what_is/3g.html http://dotancohen.com/eng/online_casino_gambling.php
Dotan Cohen wrote:
Until end users can click on an mp3 file, and keep clicking dialogs until it plays (with no googling/searching/reading and no prior knowledge) then Fedora will not be simple for new users. Additionally, I didn't think that Fedora wanted to get to that point until I saw CodecBuddy.
Clicking on mp3 files is just one activity. User friendless is not measured by just this one factor. We have already explained in detail why we don't intend to support it by default on this at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ. It serves no purpose repeating this information again. So let's not have the same discussion on mp3 codecs for the umpteenth time.
Obviously I don't want the LiveCD project to be dropped. But I emphasize the need to consider it's impact.
You certainly questioned the need for a live cd before. We have already considered it in detail and decided to do it before we started investing resources on doing it.
We cannot avoid that, therefore we must ensure that the LiveCD does not deter them. Do you disagree with that?
How exactly do you ensure that? That is the information that I have been asking for.
Rahul
Hi again,
Please stop feeding the trolls. Thanks.
David
On 19/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
Until end users can click on an mp3 file, and keep clicking dialogs until it plays (with no googling/searching/reading and no prior knowledge) then Fedora will not be simple for new users. Additionally, I didn't think that Fedora wanted to get to that point until I saw CodecBuddy.
Clicking on mp3 files is just one activity. User friendless is not measured by just this one factor.
Excuse my English, but how do you refer to the chemical that runs out first in a chemical reaction, thereby limiting the amount of product produced? Would it be "limiting agent"? (that's an exact translation from Hebrew)
User friendliness is the least friendly of several measurements. As Fedora now stands, the limiting agent in Fedora user friendliness is the (lack of) multimedia support. It's not a coincidence that that is the title of this thread.
We have already explained in detail why we don't intend to support it by default on this at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ. It serves no purpose repeating this information again.
And I agree with every word of it. That was never under dispute. It's the implementation that I disagree with, not the policy.
So let's not have the same discussion on mp3 codecs for the umpteenth time.
We're not. We are discussing the implementation.
Obviously I don't want the LiveCD project to be dropped. But I emphasize the need to consider it's impact.
You certainly questioned the need for a live cd before. We have already considered it in detail and decided to do it before we started investing resources on doing it.
Not the need, but the purpose and implementation. If it's implemented as FC7 test1 (the latest I have been priveleged to play with, please excuse me if the point is not valid for test3) then it is a bad implementation and should be addressed. It's more critical in a LiveCD than the install distro as the LiveCD is more accessible to (potential) new users.
We cannot avoid that, therefore we must ensure that the LiveCD does not deter them. Do you disagree with that?
How exactly do you ensure that? That is the information that I have been asking for.
Ah, we are making progress. This is where I wanted to get to with you.
We can not deter them by identifying the most popular usage [work|play]-flows and making them possible with no googling/asking/prior knowledge/searching. Only click-click-click. It's possible, as [k]Ubuntu has proven. It's even possible given the legal requirements imposed on Redhat. It just needs to be done.
The Fedora LiveCD likely will be, like the Ubuntu LiveCD, the decision maker for many people whether or not to use Linux. It boils down to this: Can I do X1, X2, ... , Xn with this thing? If all the answers are yes, then Linux (Fedora, Ubuntu, or whatever distro) gets installed. If not, then Linux does not get installed and the user proclaims to all his friends that he tried Linux and Linux is difficult/for geeks/not ready/impossible.
Dotan Cohen
Dotan Cohen wrote:
User friendliness is the least friendly of several measurements. As Fedora now stands, the limiting agent in Fedora user friendliness is the (lack of) multimedia support. It's not a coincidence that that is the title of this thread.
The original subject was not about proprietary codecs at all.
It's
the implementation that I disagree with, not the policy.
Policy determines implementation. We won't include proprietary software and if that affects usability we can't solve the problem in all instances. This is the constraint that we work with and we have made it very explicit.
Not the need, but the purpose and implementation. If it's implemented as FC7 test1 (the latest I have been priveleged to play with, please excuse me if the point is not valid for test3) then it is a bad implementation and should be addressed. It's more critical in a LiveCD than the install distro as the LiveCD is more accessible to (potential) new users.
Test 1 is very much outdated and you should know better than using it as a starting point of discussion. Hopefully you have filed bugs for whatever problems you came across rather than just calling it bad. Use a more recent revisions and if you want to discuss problems with it sign up in fedora-test list and continue there. This is the wrong forum for that.
We can not deter them by identifying the most popular usage [work|play]-flows and making them possible with no googling/asking/prior knowledge/searching. Only click-click-click. It's possible, as [k]Ubuntu has proven. It's even possible given the legal requirements imposed on Redhat. It just needs to be done
It's not always possible. Ubuntu is already include proprietary kernel drivers by default and plans to do more in future versions. This is not something we are ever going to do in Fedora. If that leaves usability gaps end users will have to live with that in some instances.
This discussion has turned no useful points at all and I am stopping at this stage. If you have anything useful to say further please contact me offlist and don't reply here. Thanks.
Rahul
On 4/19/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
User friendliness is the least friendly of several measurements. As Fedora now stands, the limiting agent in Fedora user friendliness is the (lack of) multimedia support. It's not a coincidence that that is the title of this thread.
The original subject was not about proprietary codecs at all.
It's
the implementation that I disagree with, not the policy.
Policy determines implementation. We won't include proprietary software and if that affects usability we can't solve the problem in all instances. This is the constraint that we work with and we have made it very explicit.
Rahul, I think the point Donton is trying to make is that distributed LiveCDs may actually deal a blow to Fedora's image, as LiveCDs are often used to show of to people unwilling to understand Fedora's policy choices.
Not the need, but the purpose and implementation. If it's implemented as FC7 test1 (the latest I have been priveleged to play with, please excuse me if the point is not valid for test3) then it is a bad implementation and should be addressed. It's more critical in a LiveCD than the install distro as the LiveCD is more accessible to (potential) new users.
Test 1 is very much outdated and you should know better than using it as a starting point of discussion. Hopefully you have filed bugs for whatever problems you came across rather than just calling it bad. Use a more recent revisions and if you want to discuss problems with it sign up in fedora-test list and continue there. This is the wrong forum for that.
We can not deter them by identifying the most popular usage [work|play]-flows and making them possible with no googling/asking/prior knowledge/searching. Only click-click-click. It's possible, as [k]Ubuntu has proven. It's even possible given the legal requirements imposed on Redhat. It just needs to be done
It's not always possible. Ubuntu is already include proprietary kernel drivers by default and plans to do more in future versions. This is not something we are ever going to do in Fedora. If that leaves usability gaps end users will have to live with that in some instances.
This discussion has turned no useful points at all and I am stopping at this stage. If you have anything useful to say further please contact me offlist and don't reply here. Thanks.
Rahul
-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
Rahul, I think the point Donton is trying to make is that distributed LiveCDs may actually deal a blow to Fedora's image, as LiveCDs are often used to show of to people unwilling to understand Fedora's policy choices.
That point is well understood. Unless you have a good idea to solve that I don't think there is any necessity to worry about it. We have done what we can to educate users on our objectives.
Rahul
On 4/19/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
Rahul, I think the point Donton is trying to make is that distributed LiveCDs may actually deal a blow to Fedora's image, as LiveCDs are often used to show of to people unwilling to understand Fedora's policy choices.
That point is well understood. Unless you have a good idea to solve that I don't think there is any necessity to worry about it. We have done what we can to educate users on our objectives.
No I don't. However, I have to say even I was dismayed a bit when I couldn't get OO.org Impress to embed a OGM file. But I've emailed the maintainer, who says that I should be better in F7. (long story short, I had to do a Impress presentation about Fedora on WinXP)
The only real suggestion, if it even is a suggestion, is that Fedora needs a secondary, complementary goal, besides being a solid base of free and open software.
Rahul
-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
The only real suggestion, if it even is a suggestion, is that Fedora needs a secondary, complementary goal, besides being a solid base of free and open software.
What would that be? Please be specific.
Rahul
On 4/19/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
The only real suggestion, if it even is a suggestion, is that Fedora needs a secondary, complementary goal, besides being a solid base of free and open software.
What would that be? Please be specific.
Rahul
It would be nice if Fedora could pioneer migration and installation software. Anaconda is nice, best operating system installer I have used, but I believe there is room for much improvement, and no one else seems to be actively pursuing said goal.
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
It would be nice if Fedora could pioneer migration and installation software. Anaconda is nice, best operating system installer I have used, but I believe there is room for much improvement, and no one else seems to be actively pursuing said goal.
Being a solid base of Free and open source software is a long term goal. Migration software is a feature. Don't confuse between them. Write it, find folks willing to do it or wait till we get around to doing it if ever. We will happily use it when it's available. It is of high value.
Rahul
On 19/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
User friendliness is the least friendly of several measurements. As Fedora now stands, the limiting agent in Fedora user friendliness is the (lack of) multimedia support. It's not a coincidence that that is the title of this thread.
The original subject was not about proprietary codecs at all.
It's
the implementation that I disagree with, not the policy.
Policy determines implementation. We won't include proprietary software and if that affects usability we can't solve the problem in all instances. This is the constraint that we work with and we have made it very explicit.
Not the need, but the purpose and implementation. If it's implemented as FC7 test1 (the latest I have been priveleged to play with, please excuse me if the point is not valid for test3) then it is a bad implementation and should be addressed. It's more critical in a LiveCD than the install distro as the LiveCD is more accessible to (potential) new users.
Test 1 is very much outdated and you should know better than using it as a starting point of discussion. Hopefully you have filed bugs for whatever problems you came across rather than just calling it bad. Use a more recent revisions and if you want to discuss problems with it sign up in fedora-test list and continue there. This is the wrong forum for that.
We can not deter them by identifying the most popular usage [work|play]-flows and making them possible with no googling/asking/prior knowledge/searching. Only click-click-click. It's possible, as [k]Ubuntu has proven. It's even possible given the legal requirements imposed on Redhat. It just needs to be done
It's not always possible. Ubuntu is already include proprietary kernel drivers by default and plans to do more in future versions. This is not something we are ever going to do in Fedora. If that leaves usability gaps end users will have to live with that in some instances.
This discussion has turned no useful points at all and I am stopping at this stage. If you have anything useful to say further please contact me offlist and don't reply here. Thanks.
Rahul
As per Rahul's request, the conversation is being continued in private.
On 4/18/07, Dotan Cohen dotancohen@gmail.com wrote:
On 18/04/07, Jesse Keating jkeating@redhat.com wrote:
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 05:31:30 Arthur Pemberton wrote:
+1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora?
No software is perfect, and surprise you can use yum from the LiveCD to add more software.
There are plenty of usage cases outside the "I want to listen to mp3s" crowd.
Very common workflows (or playflows) include the following:
- Web browsing: the viewing of HTML pages
Will only be able to view non media rich pages
- Email: the downloading, display, and sending of electronic mail
Should work, assuming no wifi
- Chatting: communicating with other humans via one (or more) or the
following chat protocols: yahoo, msn, icq
Should work, assuming no wifi
- Listening to audio: the playback of mp3 files
Won't work
- Watching video: the playback of mpg, avi, and wmv files
Won't work, except for .ogg
- Viewing pictures: the display of jpeg files
Should work
- Word Processing: creating, editing, and display of text documents
Should work, sans abilty to embed media files
in txt, rtf, and doc formats 8) Spreadsheet: creating, editing, and display of spreadsheets in excel format
Should work, but minus some upstream functionality
I'm sure there's more that I missed. But these are examples of the most basic functions that any computer (and operating system) are expected to perform. If an OS cannot do any of these, then it is not adequate for general use. Fedora is thus bound by law to be inadequate for general use out of the box. That is easily fixed by those in the know, but not by a passer-by who downloads the distro (or LiveCD) and plays around with it.
Again I ask: to whom is the official LiveCD aimed at? I do not think that Redhat can (legally) produce a LiveCD suitable for the general public. Rather, this is better left to the community, who are not bound by such restrictive laws, and can legally create and distribute such a disk. The only question for Redhat is should Redhat allow the community to use the Fedora name on the disk.
Dotan Cohen
http://technology-sleuth.com/short_answer/why_are_internet_greeting_cards_da... http://what-is-what.com/what_is/wikipedia.html
-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
On Wed, 2007-04-18 at 11:18 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On 4/18/07, Dotan Cohen dotancohen@gmail.com wrote:
- Email: the downloading, display, and sending of electronic mail
Should work, assuming no wifi
- Chatting: communicating with other humans via one (or more) or the
following chat protocols: yahoo, msn, icq
Should work, assuming no wifi
FWIW, wifi should be better in a lot of cases for F7. ipw2x00 works nicely, ipw3945 is limping along (though recently regressed). Firmware for a few other cards is currently under review and will hopefully get straightened out in the near future.
Jeremy
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
+1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora?
Live CD is useful since it is a single disk that you can distribute and get a reasonably good GNOME and KDE desktop. Perfect? no, but it is definitely getting better with every version overall.
Rahul
On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
+1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora?
Live CD is useful since it is a single disk that you can distribute and get a reasonably good GNOME and KDE desktop. Perfect? no, but it is definitely getting better with every version overall.
Rahul
What does it provide that Knoppix/Slax does not? Or is RH doing this "because they can"?
Dotan Cohen
http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/603/a-camp.html http://what-is-what.com/what_is/unix.html
Dotan Cohen wrote:
What does it provide that Knoppix/Slax does not? Or is RH doing this "because they can"?
It provides a way to distribute Fedora as Live image which many end users find useful and have repeatedly asked for. Of course we do it because we can. Do you have a problem with that?
Rahul
On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
What does it provide that Knoppix/Slax does not? Or is RH doing this "because they can"?
It provides a way to distribute Fedora as Live image which many end users find useful and have repeatedly asked for. Of course we do it because we can. Do you have a problem with that?
Rahul
Rahul, I have no problem with doing something because one can. Man walked on the moon because 'he could', and in the process technology had been advanced in ways that profit every walk of life. I have repeatedly expressed the need for a one (or at least not _five_) disk install. However, I don't think that Fedora should be used to introduce people to Linux (reasons given in previous email), and that's a very likely scenario for a LiveCD. That is a situation that must be considered.
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com/what_is/network.html http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/168/dr_dre.html
Am Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:33:16 +0300 schrieb "Dotan Cohen" dotancohen@gmail.com:
However, I don't think that Fedora should be used to introduce people to Linux (reasons given in previous email), and that's a very likely scenario for a LiveCD. That is a situation that must be considered.
Nobody is forcing you to use fedora to introduce people to linux. If the livecds doesn't fit _your_ needs - don't use it. But please, let us use the cds if we want to. Thanks.
Sebastian
Dotan Cohen wrote:
However, I don't think that Fedora should be used to
introduce people to Linux (reasons given in previous email), and that's a very likely scenario for a LiveCD. That is a situation that must be considered.
We are not going to prevent people from using Fedora Live images to introduce Linux to people. I think that's a valid use case. There are certainly some usability gaps which we need to solve (while not moving away from the goal of not including proprietary software by default) There are several other use cases for a live cd which others have explained in detail. What are expecting us to do precisely?
I believe that Live CD's are in general a useful thing for Fedora to have and that is something that is very much enforced by the positive feedback that we got from the release of Fedora Core 6 Live CD.
Fedora 7 will have a x86 GNOME Live CD, x86-64 GNOME Live DVD and a x86 KDE Live CD all of which are installable. The tools to produce different variants are part of the Fedora repository now and uses simple kickstart configuration files. I think all of that is of immense value to end users and system administrators.
Rahul
On 4/18/07, Dotan Cohen dotancohen@gmail.com wrote:
On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Dotan Cohen wrote:
What does it provide that Knoppix/Slax does not? Or is RH doing this "because they can"?
It provides a way to distribute Fedora as Live image which many end users find useful and have repeatedly asked for. Of course we do it because we can. Do you have a problem with that?
Rahul
Rahul, I have no problem with doing something because one can. Man walked on the moon because 'he could', and in the process technology had been advanced in ways that profit every walk of life. I have repeatedly expressed the need for a one (or at least not _five_) disk install. However, I don't think that Fedora should be used to introduce people to Linux (reasons given in previous email), and that's a very likely scenario for a LiveCD. That is a situation that must be considered.
Dotan Cohen
Dotan,
I think I share your opinions on the LiveCD. Especially after going through issues with the last two people I recommended Fedora to, I fear I may have turned them off linux for awhile. Nevertheless, might I suggest a wait-and-see approach to further discussion against the LiveCD - hopefully the Fedora project will collect some statistics as to how successfully it is. Personally, I think Fedora could better benifit from pioneering ease and versatility of installation, since no other OS seems to have anything that great in terms of installation yet, but that' my $0.02 which doesn't even have time to implement said idea.
On 18/04/07, Arthur Pemberton pemboa@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/18/07, Dotan Cohen dotancohen@gmail.com wrote:
Rahul, I have no problem with doing something because one can. Man walked on the moon because 'he could', and in the process technology had been advanced in ways that profit every walk of life. I have repeatedly expressed the need for a one (or at least not _five_) disk install. However, I don't think that Fedora should be used to introduce people to Linux (reasons given in previous email), and that's a very likely scenario for a LiveCD. That is a situation that must be considered.
Dotan Cohen
Dotan,
I think I share your opinions on the LiveCD. Especially after going through issues with the last two people I recommended Fedora to, I fear I may have turned them off linux for awhile. Nevertheless, might I suggest a wait-and-see approach to further discussion against the LiveCD - hopefully the Fedora project will collect some statistics as to how successfully it is. Personally, I think Fedora could better benifit from pioneering ease and versatility of installation, since no other OS seems to have anything that great in terms of installation yet, but that' my $0.02 which doesn't even have time to implement said idea.
I hope to see it soon and help file bugs. Statistics seeing how popular it is would be nice (difficult of course to gather), but statistics as to how it's used would be no less important in my opinion.
Dotan Cohen
http://technology-sleuth.com/question/why_are_internet_greeting_cards_danger... http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/lyrics/135/457/spears_britney/oops_i_did_it_aga...
On 4/18/07, Dotan Cohen dotancohen@gmail.com wrote:
On 18/04/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
+1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora?
Live CD is useful since it is a single disk that you can distribute and get a reasonably good GNOME and KDE desktop. Perfect? no, but it is definitely getting better with every version overall.
Rahul
What does it provide that Knoppix/Slax does not? Or is RH doing this "because they can"?
There's a specific livecd list where these issues have been discussed extensively in the past. Among the reasons advanced for producing a LiveCD have been:
* Deployment without an install -- this can be useful for people that don't want to mess with anaconda for some reason, it can allow creating a snapshot of rawhide to test resolution of ongoing issues https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-livecd-list/2005-June/msg00006.html
It can also allow very quick and easy reimaging if there's some problem (yes, I know kickstart is an ideal solution for this, but if you don't want to learn it then you can just put a CD in each machine and hit the reset button if you suspect that it's been messed with -- no, I wouldn't do it that way but it's a usage-case that some people want)
* It allows instant re-creation of a familiar workspace in a new environment https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-livecd-list/2005-June/msg00009.html
* Quick and easy testing of unfamiliar hardware to see if it will work well with Fedora -- as regards this as far as I'm concerned I'd welcome an early indication that a motherboard contains some non-Free garbage hardware that's going to be a pain to maintain in the future.
All the above and more have been discussed extensively and with convincing examples and rationales on the appropriate list. This conversation seems like noise from people that haven't bothered to research the issue.
Please, end this thread.
Oisin Feeley
On 4/18/07, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
+1 this seems deserving of answer. I like Fedora, use it all the time, and so rarely need a liveCD. And I am finding it harder to suggest Fedora to newbies. The LiveCD doesn't seem like that's going to change. I''m simply not suggesting any Linux since I'm only familiar with Fedora. The LiveCD certainly has a cool factor. But in the hypothetical scenario of a perfect LiveCD, what are the benefits? What are the hypothetical use cases of said perfect Live Fedora?
Live CD is useful since it is a single disk that you can distribute and get a reasonably good GNOME and KDE desktop. Perfect? no, but it is definitely getting better with every version overall.
Well that is only really half a reason, since a live cd will likely only have one DE. But one cd intalltion is the only real benefit i can think of so far.
On Wednesday 18 April 2007 12:20:55 Arthur Pemberton wrote:
Well that is only really half a reason, since a live cd will likely only have one DE. But one cd intalltion is the only real benefit i can think of so far.
I use the LiveImage on my USB Key to run Linux anywhere. Next development cycle where we really try to nail down persistence and encryption I could potentially have a well working Live image with my home directory and all my applications set up on my USB key, negating the need to travel with a clunky laptop. To walk into a room of doubters, borrow one of their windows laptops/workstations/whatever, boot from my USB and have my working Fedora desktop right there is a pretty compelling sight, especially if I can add packages, update, show that things like suspend/resume work on their hardware, etc...
On Tue, 2007-04-17 at 17:54 -0500, Rick Stuart wrote:
Valent Turkovic wrote:
<snip>
If you are going to build a live CD (Excellent Idea by the way) for people to try out Linux, then concentrate on the total experience. Look at what "typical" users do and make sure they have success. Valent hit the nail on the head....KDE...GNOME....why should that matter? GNOME doesn't work any better with Totem BTW.
If Totem doesn't work for you, then I'd certainly like to see the bugs. Most bugs I've seen are known problems, and we very seldomly receive new crashers. So any bug quashing help is appreciated.
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