Hey all,
with F10 closing in on the finish line, it is time to start thinking about how we envision the Fedora Desktop to look beyond F10. To that end, we (mostly Jon and me, with some help from other desktop team members) have started to put some of our ideas for how to improve the desktop experience into written form.
You can find this material here:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards
Currently this is just a pretty unsorted mixture of wild ideas, implementation details and concrete plans, and a lot of them are missing details, user stories and use cases. Don't misunderstand it as 'the plan for the F11 desktop'.
But I hope that it is filled out enough to provide some idea in what direction we would like to move the desktop. Over the next weeks, we'll turn the things that we are going to tackle for F11 into regular feature pages.
Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion tabs.
Matthias
Matthias Clasen wrote:
Hey all,
Hi,
with F10 closing in on the finish line, it is time to start thinking about how we envision the Fedora Desktop to look beyond F10. To that end, we (mostly Jon and me, with some help from other desktop team members) have started to put some of our ideas for how to improve the desktop experience into written form.
You can find this material here:
[...]
Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion tabs.
I think commenting here is a better way, since is hard to keep track of comments on so many wiki pages.
"Better Face Images" is one of the features. Diana worked on that before she left (http://www.isity.net/blog/?p=65), maybe we can leverage somehow her work, do a better selection from the collected images or star to collect a new batch. Leave us know it the Art Team can help with that.
There are also two related features, "Wallpaper" and "Backgrounds channel", for which I think the best way forward is to link them together, why struggle with an sub-optimal selection process (which, any way you make, will get some un-pleased) when we can offer everything with one click using RSS feeds. I don't like the part about randomly assigning an initial background, one think I learned from GNOME is that good defaults matter.
For the "Better Fonts" feature, it may not be what you envisioned, but we at the Art Team are actively asking for "artsy" fonts, things like Rufscript or Beteckna. We don't want those in the default install, but is handy to have them easy available.
Matthias Clasen wrote:
Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion tabs.
Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import
My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...
I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much the same way.
That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you.
-- Dan
On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 10:40 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
"Better Face Images" is one of the features. Diana worked on that before she left (http://www.isity.net/blog/?p=65), maybe we can leverage somehow her work, do a better selection from the collected images or star to collect a new batch. Leave us know it the Art Team can help with that.
We used to ship those images in a gdm-extra-faces subpackage. I need to investigate what happened to that...
There are also two related features, "Wallpaper" and "Backgrounds channel", for which I think the best way forward is to link them together, why struggle with an sub-optimal selection process (which, any way you make, will get some un-pleased) when we can offer everything with one click using RSS feeds. I don't like the part about randomly assigning an initial background, one think I learned from GNOME is that good defaults matter.
The basic premise here is that we think it may be better to treat backgrounds as a 'personalization feature', not as a branding vehicle. Since, after all, changing the background is one of the first things many people do on a new device.
To make randomly assigning work, it is of course important that we have a small set of equal-quality backgrounds to choose from (basically, each of them needs to be a good default...)
For the "Better Fonts" feature, it may not be what you envisioned, but we at the Art Team are actively asking for "artsy" fonts, things like Rufscript or Beteckna. We don't want those in the default install, but is handy to have them easy available.
Expanding the supply of available fonts is certainly great, artsy or not...
On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Dan Winship dwinship@redhat.com wrote:
Matthias Clasen wrote:
Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion tabs.
Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import
My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...
So what should the default be? I personally rip everything as flac.
I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much the same way.
That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you.
-- Dan
-- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
Does anyone know how I can add another group under 'Applications' on the top panel of the GNOME desktop?
I can easily add an item to the Applications menu by creating a .desktop file in the /usr/share/applications directory. But I work in Astronomy and what I want to do is create a new 'Astronomy' group containing links to the most popular installed Astro software on one system, then distribute the relevant config files to all my other machines.
Documentation seems scarce....
Thanks in advance for any advice,
Mark
On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 15:37 +0000, Maccy wrote:
Does anyone know how I can add another group under 'Applications' on the top panel of the GNOME desktop?
I can easily add an item to the Applications menu by creating a .desktop file in the /usr/share/applications directory. But I work in Astronomy and what I want to do is create a new 'Astronomy' group containing links to the most popular installed Astro software on one system, then distribute the relevant config files to all my other machines.
Documentation seems scarce....
If you want to do it by file editing, you want to look at the .menu files in /etc/xdg/menus (they are a bit confusing at first).
If you just want to edit your own menus, theres a gui for that somewhere in the preference menus, look for "Main Menu". It lets you add new menus.
On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 10:05 -0500, Bill Peck wrote:
Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import
My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...
So what should the default be? I personally rip everything as flac.
The default should be what we can legally ship with, which isn't mp3. .ogg is not a bad choice.
Hey,
On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Dan Winship dwinship@redhat.com wrote:
Matthias Clasen wrote:
Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion tabs.
Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import
My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...
I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much the same way.
That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you.
Because when Rhythmbox transfers files to your device it transcodes them from ogg or flac into whatever format your player supports.
We don't want nautilus to be the sync-with-music-player experience.
Jon
On 11/7/08 10:02 AM, Dan Winship wrote:
Matthias Clasen wrote:
Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion tabs.
Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import
My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...
I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much the same way.
That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you.
-- Dan
Having ogg be default is fine IMHO, but it would be great to add more options to the rip preferences. For example, I still prefer ripping to wav and then using an audio converter to convert to FLAC since there's no way for me to set the flac compression level (or I missed it).
In the case of lossy codecs, I think a simple drop-down selection for bitrate and checkbutton for CBR/VBR would make a lot of people happy.
Stewart
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 10:05 -0500, Bill Peck wrote:
Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import
My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...
So what should the default be? I personally rip everything as flac.
The default should be what we can legally ship with, which isn't mp3. .ogg is not a bad choice.
The overriding goal is to help the user do the stuff they want to do. If we can't do that for legal reasons, then "helping the user do stuff they DON'T want to do" is not a reasonable fallback. (I realize that .ogg-by-default *is* an ok choice for many people, so we're not completely losing here.)
But am I wrong in believing that MP3 is the de facto standard compressed audio format? And that many people have devices that play MP3s but not oggs? And that when people say "rip", it's generally assumed they mean "rip to mp3" unless they explicitly name another file format?
If so, then Rhythmbox (or actually, Sound Juicer, right?) has bad confusing UI, because it doesn't support MP3, but it never acknowledges this fact anywhere, leaving the user to assume that it does. (Even I get confused, and I *know* Fedora can't ship MP3 support.)
If our use cases for the "Default CD ripper" feature assume that some people are going to want to rip to MP3 (which I assume they will), and our CD ripping tool is not going to support MP3 (which I assume it won't), then the UI ought to be a lot more explicit about this, and make sure that the user isn't going to waste their time ripping CDs into a format they can't use.
-- Dan
Dan Winship wrote:
But am I wrong in believing that MP3 is the de facto standard compressed audio format? And that many people have devices that play MP3s but not oggs? And that when people say "rip", it's generally assumed they mean "rip to mp3" unless they explicitly name another file format?
Some years ago I used to use grip, which has two buttons, one for "rip" and another for "rip + encode". Yes, at the very first use I was confused a bit that "rip" produced a .wav file, but I understood the process.
If so, then Rhythmbox (or actually, Sound Juicer, right?) has bad confusing UI, because it doesn't support MP3, but it never acknowledges this fact anywhere, leaving the user to assume that it does. (Even I get confused, and I *know* Fedora can't ship MP3 support.)
But Sound Juicer does support MP3. Not out-of-the-box, but after the first step I do after any install.
If our use cases for the "Default CD ripper" feature assume that some people are going to want to rip to MP3 (which I assume they will), and our CD ripping tool is not going to support MP3 (which I assume it won't), then the UI ought to be a lot more explicit about this, and make sure that the user isn't going to waste their time ripping CDs into a format they can't use.
It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people rip to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way to get this data.
Nicu Buculei wrote:
It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people rip to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way to get this data.
Don't the various music players each have some kind of xml config file somewhere? Do these files have any information on what formats the players support? That could be a way to at least have an idea of how many support ogg vs mp3 only if it does. (If it doesn't, could it be added? How are those files maintained?)
Just an idea, anyhow.
~m
2008/11/10 Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro
It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people rip to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way to get this data.
I use Banshee, my setting is to rip to flac. Banshee then handles transcoding to my iPod in a format that can handle if supported by my system (luckily Danish law is slightly less insane and it's US counterpart in this area so I can have me some mp3 goodness).
- David
On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 11:37 -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
Nicu Buculei wrote:
It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people rip to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way to get this data.
Don't the various music players each have some kind of xml config file somewhere? Do these files have any information on what formats the players support? That could be a way to at least have an idea of how
Yes, 10-usb-music-players.fdi. And I'm pretty sure rhythmbox will already transcode to a format the player supports, but of course nautilus won't since it doesn't care what type the device is.
Dan
many support ogg vs mp3 only if it does. (If it doesn't, could it be added? How are those files maintained?)
Just an idea, anyhow.
~m
Dan Williams wrote:
On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 11:37 -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
Nicu Buculei wrote:
It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people rip to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way to get this data.
Don't the various music players each have some kind of xml config file somewhere? Do these files have any information on what formats the players support? That could be a way to at least have an idea of how
Yes, 10-usb-music-players.fdi. And I'm pretty sure rhythmbox will already transcode to a format the player supports, but of course nautilus won't since it doesn't care what type the device is.
Hmm, Dan (Winship), did you use Nautilus or did you use Rhythmbox? I think the feature bullet point in question was specific to Rhythmbox, wasn't it?
~m
Dan Williams escribió:
On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 11:37 -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
Nicu Buculei wrote:
It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people rip to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way to get this data.
Don't the various music players each have some kind of xml config file somewhere? Do these files have any information on what formats the players support? That could be a way to at least have an idea of how
Yes, 10-usb-music-players.fdi. And I'm pretty sure rhythmbox will already transcode to a format the player supports, but of course nautilus won't since it doesn't care what type the device is.
Dan
I've been watching this discussion over the last few days, and I can't help but think about one single issue: If Rythmbox rips to .ogg/.flac and then transcodes into the DAP's native format (.wma/.m4a/AAC/etc) to synchronize, doesn't that mean that at least the *encoders* to these other formats/containers must be installed on Fedora, and that would bring us to the first point of the argument of Fedora not being able (under US laws) to include these encoders in the first place? What does it matter if Rythmbox upstream is able to do this (regardless of the format you may keep your own library) if it *can't be implemented on Fedora* due to use of restricted encoders required. So, in a default installation, suppose Rythmbox is able to do this, but it requires the pertinent GStreamer plugins to be installed in the first place to be able to do the transcode. Or is Fedora enabling RPMFusion by default and installing these encoders in an "as needed" basis when a user first tries to sync his/her iPod/Nomad/iriver/Sony/etc DAP?
On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 10:02 -0500, Dan Winship wrote:
Matthias Clasen wrote:
Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion tabs.
Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import
My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1. Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3 player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...
I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much the same way.
That's not the CD ripping experience, that's the ripping and sync'ing your music player experience. If you just wanted to play back your tracks, this setup would have been as good as WMP ripping to WMA, or iTunes ripping to AAC.
That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you.
Pretty much. Except that Rhythmbox knows how to convert the files you just ripped for them to be readable by your device.
File bugs if any of this isn't true.
And we're looking at making Rhythmbox replace Sound-juicer, without significant feature loss. Integration with music players is something that will come later.
Rahul Sundaram escribió:
Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: Or is Fedora enabling RPMFusion by default and
installing these encoders in an "as needed" basis when a user first tries to sync his/her iPod/Nomad/iriver/Sony/etc DAP?
Fedora cannot do that.
Rahul
Excaclty! And that is my whole point! Why lose time discussing this that simply cannot be done in Fedora due to the number of legal blackholes it would imply. There are a few DAP brands that do allow for free formats to be played back on them (iriver, Creative Nomad, Cowon iAuduio, etc), they can mostly play .ogg/.flac (beside the array of proprietary formats .mp3,.wma,.m4a,.aac, etc), but the main problem with these is the small storage capacity compared to the traditional iPod, and while pretty much all of these do support video, the video format they mostly support is also encumbered (h264 simple profile and MPEG-4 simple profile) I wish Theora will mature to the point that it would be a viable alternative for these formats and most likely would be picked up by some companies as well (just like .ogg Vorbis & FLAC).
I, however, wonder what will the status on this be when in 2010 the patents on MP3 (dunno which ones) supposedly expire. But that's still a whole 13+ months away (the whole life-cycle of Fedora 10!).
Speaking about Video, maybe an area (in Multimedia) that would be worth investing development and time testing is just video-encoding and editing using free formats (theora). Many times in the past I tried to transcode some of the videos I own (whether it be DVD or downloaded free-videos) to theora. Once I wanted to conduct a quality comparison between theora, MPEG-4 and h264, but I could never find a good and reliable theora encoder. I do believe that ffmpeg (another restricted package) does support transcoding to theora, but is there a stand-alone theora encoder?
2008/11/11 Gian Paolo Mureddu gmureddu@prodigy.net.mx
Rahul Sundaram escribió:
Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: Or is Fedora enabling RPMFusion by default and
installing these encoders in an "as needed" basis when a user first tries to sync his/her iPod/Nomad/iriver/Sony/etc DAP?
Fedora cannot do that.
Rahul
Excaclty! And that is my whole point! Why lose time discussing this that simply cannot be done in Fedora due to the number of legal blackholes it would imply. There are a few DAP brands that do allow for free formats to be played back on them (iriver, Creative Nomad, Cowon iAuduio, etc), they can mostly play .ogg/.flac (beside the array of proprietary formats .mp3,.wma,.m4a,.aac, etc), but the main problem with these is the small storage capacity compared to the traditional iPod, and while pretty much all of these do support video, the video format they mostly support is also encumbered (h264 simple profile and MPEG-4 simple profile) I wish Theora will mature to the point that it would be a viable alternative for these formats and most likely would be picked up by some companies as well (just like .ogg Vorbis & FLAC).
I, however, wonder what will the status on this be when in 2010 the patents on MP3 (dunno which ones) supposedly expire. But that's still a whole 13+ months away (the whole life-cycle of Fedora 10!).
Speaking about Video, maybe an area (in Multimedia) that would be worth investing development and time testing is just video-encoding and editing using free formats (theora). Many times in the past I tried to transcode some of the videos I own (whether it be DVD or downloaded free-videos) to theora. Once I wanted to conduct a quality comparison between theora, MPEG-4 and h264, but I could never find a good and reliable theora encoder. I do believe that ffmpeg (another restricted package) does support transcoding to theora, but is there a stand-alone theora encoder?
In terms of video, we could start installing gstreamer-schrodinger by default (as well as the totem bbc plugin), that is one more format we can legally ship so we really should, it is also a high quality video codec and much more likely to do well in your comparison. Does anyone know why we are not shipping this small package by default to encourage the use of open formats?
When it comes to encoders for mp3s files we are some what screwed by the fact that there isn't even a vendor who sells one, Fluendo e.g. only has a decoder, as you can't get an aac encoder either to the best of my knowledge there simply is no legal way to use an iPod in countries with software patents with Fedora (unless you only download legal mp3s but I suspect most people will want to add their own cds to the collection). The only option would be using Rockbox and then relying on it's ogg theora support.
Bastien Nocera wrote:
And we're looking at making Rhythmbox replace Sound-juicer, without significant feature loss. Integration with music players is something that will come later.
I know this is a personal preference, but I pretty much like to rip a CD without importing it in the Rhythmbox database and most of the time I find myself using Totem as a music player instead of Rhythmbox. So even this is a minority use scenario, maybe it will not be completely ignored.
Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
Excaclty! And that is my whole point! Why lose time discussing this that simply cannot be done in Fedora due to the number of legal blackholes it would imply. There are a few DAP brands that do allow for free formats to be played back on them (iriver, Creative Nomad, Cowon iAuduio, etc), they can mostly play .ogg/.flac (beside the array of proprietary formats .mp3,.wma,.m4a,.aac, etc), but the main problem with these is the small storage capacity compared to the traditional iPod, and while pretty much all of these do support video, the video format they mostly support is also encumbered (h264 simple profile and MPEG-4 simple profile) I wish Theora will mature to the point that it would be a viable alternative for these formats and most likely would be picked up by some companies as well (just like .ogg Vorbis & FLAC).
I think the time is not lost if we make the user experience as good as possible, even if this does not work out of the box, it will work as soon as the user install a few external FOSS plugins. Is pretty much guaranteed that if someone uses a Fedora system for multimedia purposes, he *will* add the Rpmfusion repository.
Nicu Buculei escribió:
Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
Excaclty! And that is my whole point! Why lose time discussing this that simply cannot be done in Fedora due to the number of legal blackholes it would imply. There are a few DAP brands that do allow for free formats to be played back on them (iriver, Creative Nomad, Cowon iAuduio, etc), they can mostly play .ogg/.flac (beside the array of proprietary formats .mp3,.wma,.m4a,.aac, etc), but the main problem with these is the small storage capacity compared to the traditional iPod, and while pretty much all of these do support video, the video format they mostly support is also encumbered (h264 simple profile and MPEG-4 simple profile) I wish Theora will mature to the point that it would be a viable alternative for these formats and most likely would be picked up by some companies as well (just like .ogg Vorbis & FLAC).
I think the time is not lost if we make the user experience as good as possible, even if this does not work out of the box, it will work as soon as the user install a few external FOSS plugins. Is pretty much guaranteed that if someone uses a Fedora system for multimedia purposes, he *will* add the Rpmfusion repository.
Indeed, Nicu, as have I and many, many other users. The thing is how to improve the experience out-of-the-box, and Multimedia having such a high profile (and priority for most users) is key... I know this has been brought up many times in the past, but why don't we include in Fedora some "demo" material done purely off free formats (an example of this for F10, if we are still in time, would be to include the video-demo of adhoc netowrk sharing with NM in F10, and some of the Truth Happens videos, Red Hat allowing). I know "other distros" do this already, and I'm sure that these demos sure enough bring to the attention of people the existence of these formats. Maybe, also some of the ambassadors would approach some of the more receptive companies to also include a theora video codec in some DAPs, like I said, many companies other than Apple do support free formats... The thing is "is there an integer-based theora simple profile decoder available?" I may have look at Xiph's site and probably the mailing lists archives.
Speaking about this, would any of you consider worth having a Wiki page for DAPs on Fedora, and maybe linked to the home page (or featured somewhere to raise awareness of it) about which DAPs could be supported out-of-the-box and how?
Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
Indeed, Nicu, as have I and many, many other users. The thing is how to improve the experience out-of-the-box, and Multimedia having such a high profile (and priority for most users) is key... I know this has been brought up many times in the past, but why don't we include in Fedora some "demo" material done purely off free formats (an example of this for F10, if we are still in time, would be to include the video-demo of adhoc netowrk sharing with NM in F10, and some of the Truth Happens videos, Red Hat allowing). I know "other distros" do this already, and I'm sure that these demos sure enough bring to the attention of people the existence of these formats.
I proposes in the past myself the addition of such content with no success. I guess this is a problem with available space on the media, all the focus in on the Live CD and it was really tough this round to make it fit on one CD (and there are still application deserving to be on the CD but with not enough space to fit them).
Nicu Buculei escribió:
Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
Indeed, Nicu, as have I and many, many other users. The thing is how to improve the experience out-of-the-box, and Multimedia having such a high profile (and priority for most users) is key... I know this has been brought up many times in the past, but why don't we include in Fedora some "demo" material done purely off free formats (an example of this for F10, if we are still in time, would be to include the video-demo of adhoc netowrk sharing with NM in F10, and some of the Truth Happens videos, Red Hat allowing). I know "other distros" do this already, and I'm sure that these demos sure enough bring to the attention of people the existence of these formats.
I proposes in the past myself the addition of such content with no success. I guess this is a problem with available space on the media, all the focus in on the Live CD and it was really tough this round to make it fit on one CD (and there are still application deserving to be on the CD but with not enough space to fit them).
I see... For the liveCD is indeed kind of tough... However, there are ways:
1) The welcome screen on the browser (Firefox/Konqueror in GNOME/KDE spins) a local .(x)html file arranged in such a way that users see at a glance what Fedora has to offer, include in there links to some videos (maybe even add a few thumbnails of the videos, which shouldn't take too much disk space, a few hundred kb at most) to show case these technologies.
2) Instead of a welcome page, maybe a bookmark button in the browser... less exposed, but equally "included" to a certain "media" location within FP.O, etc...
There are a lot of things that *could* be done... The issue is "doing them".
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Matthias Clasen wrote:
If you want to do it by file editing, you want to look at the .menu files in /etc/xdg/menus (they are a bit confusing at first).
Very confusing....is there a quick and easy editing guide somewhere? I tried copying an existing file and changing names etc. but no joy.
I would love to do it system-wide.
Mark
Bastien Nocera wrote:
Pretty much. Except that Rhythmbox knows how to convert the files you just ripped for them to be readable by your device.
Isn't ogg->mp3 going to be unpleasantly lossy?
Shrug. Maybe everything would have worked fine for me and I just messed up by knowing too much about some things (ForbiddenItems) and not enough about others (Rhythmbox's current feature list).
Integration with music players is something that will come later.
Huh? I thought you said it already did that?
-- Dan
Dan Winship wrote:
Bastien Nocera wrote:
Pretty much. Except that Rhythmbox knows how to convert the files you just ripped for them to be readable by your device.
Isn't ogg->mp3 going to be unpleasantly lossy?
If you target is a portable device it will probably be OK.
Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
- The welcome screen on the browser (Firefox/Konqueror in GNOME/KDE
spins) a local .(x)html file arranged in such a way that users see at a glance what Fedora has to offer, include in there links to some videos (maybe even add a few thumbnails of the videos, which shouldn't take too much disk space, a few hundred kb at most) to show case these technologies.
So maybe we could spiff up the start.fedoraproject.org page to have some thumbnails & links out to media?
- Instead of a welcome page, maybe a bookmark button in the browser...
less exposed, but equally "included" to a certain "media" location within FP.O, etc...
We do ship Firefox with links to free & open media by default. So you are referring to media that is specifically Fedora media, like videos about Fedora?
~m
On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 09:35 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
Bastien Nocera wrote:
And we're looking at making Rhythmbox replace Sound-juicer, without significant feature loss. Integration with music players is something that will come later.
I know this is a personal preference, but I pretty much like to rip a CD without importing it in the Rhythmbox database and most of the time I find myself using Totem as a music player instead of Rhythmbox. So even this is a minority use scenario, maybe it will not be completely ignored.
I'll personally completely ignore it, to be honest. You're certainly free to go on and use sound-juicer and other tools to perform those tasks. Those aren't going away.
Cheers
On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 07:37 -0500, Dan Winship wrote:
Bastien Nocera wrote:
Pretty much. Except that Rhythmbox knows how to convert the files you just ripped for them to be readable by your device.
Isn't ogg->mp3 going to be unpleasantly lossy?
Shrug. Maybe everything would have worked fine for me and I just messed up by knowing too much about some things (ForbiddenItems) and not enough about others (Rhythmbox's current feature list).
Possibly. But we want to make this easier.
Integration with music players is something that will come later.
Huh? I thought you said it already did that?
I meant "MP3 players". And yes, we already have support for those devices, but it's not integrated into the ripping process.
Integration might mean having the user to plug in their portable music player to check what it is, and what it supports, and try to make sure we're ripping to a format it understands.
Cheers
Máirín Duffy escribió:
- Instead of a welcome page, maybe a bookmark button in the
browser... less exposed, but equally "included" to a certain "media" location within FP.O, etc...
We do ship Firefox with links to free & open media by default. So you are referring to media that is specifically Fedora media, like videos about Fedora?
~m
Indeed, that I meant. Should have been clearer on that.
Dan Winship escribió:
Isn't ogg->mp3 going to be unpleasantly lossy?
Yes and no... Yes, because the files would be stripped once again of some frequencies, and no because they have already been stripped of much of the "redundant" frequencies. Lossy compression such as Vorbis or MP3 lose data by stripping the stream of frequencies mostly inaudible by humans (some humans can hear them, most don't), Vorbis has a better algorithm and strips less frequencies from the stream, while MP3 has fixed set of frequencies (IIRC) that it strips (this all depends on the bit rate, though), so while Vorbis files have already been stripped, they may still include some frequencies recognized by MP3... Problem is that by transcoding from a lossy to a lossy format, more data is lost in the process and depending on the bit rate settings you may end up with file sounding something similar to what you get when you try to over-clean or de-noise a recording from an Vinyl disc (kind of a metallic tone). So for instance if you transcode from .oga/.ogg Vorbis at 192 kbps to MP3 at the same or similar bit rate (192 or 160), you may not notice much loss in quality, but if you transcode from Vorbis 128kbps to MP3 96kbps, you will notice much more loss than from integer .wav to MP3 96kbps, and it also depends quite a lot on the listener's ears.
On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 6:36 AM, Bastien Nocera bnocera@redhat.com wrote:
Integration might mean having the user to plug in their portable music player to check what it is, and what it supports, and try to make sure we're ripping to a format it understands.
So with this sort of integration....on each device connect to the system. Can the packagekit goodness be called to reach out and pull supported gstreamer plugin codecs from the available configured repositories?
-jef"and of course a nag screen to encourage you to replace your device's firmware with rockbox"spaleta
On Thu, 2008-11-13 at 11:09 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 6:36 AM, Bastien Nocera bnocera@redhat.com wrote:
Integration might mean having the user to plug in their portable music player to check what it is, and what it supports, and try to make sure we're ripping to a format it understands.
So with this sort of integration....on each device connect to the system. Can the packagekit goodness be called to reach out and pull supported gstreamer plugin codecs from the available configured repositories?
Eventually yes.
desktop@lists.stg.fedoraproject.org
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Bastien Nocera -
Bill Peck -
Dan Williams -
Dan Winship -
David Nielsen -
Gain Paolo Mureddu -
Jef Spaleta -
Jesse Keating -
Maccy -
Matthias Clasen -
Máirín Duffy -
Nicu Buculei -
Rahul Sundaram -
Stewart Adam -
William Jon McCann