Hi desktop-list and others,
There was a lot of interest around Atomic Workstation at DevConf.cz - there were three talks specifically about Atomic Workstation (*), in addition to quite a few related talks.
We should try to catch some of this momentum and figure out how to move the project forward. My thought is that it would be useful to set up a regular IRC meeting, probably every two weeks - more or less an Atomic Workstation SIG.
Areas of work that come to mind would be: * Keeping the OSTree and installer composing, installing, and working * Increasing automated testing done on the OSTree image * Making sure that open technical questions and pull requests are dealt with * Documention, including best practices for development on an OSTree system * General initiative planning - milestones, promotion, etc. * Figuring out technical next steps
If you are interested and think you would regularly attend meetings and participate, please add yourself to:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/AtomicWorkstation/SIG
or email me. Please include your timezone, and whether you would would be able to make a meeting opposite weeks from the workstation working group - Monday 13:00 UTC - that's one time that comes to mind, but I'm not at at all tied to it.
I can handle agenda and running the meeting for now.
Thanks! Owen
(*) Sanja Bonic and Colin Walters - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4IPWlfkJSo Kalev Lember - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc7lvkl5atE Jonathan Lebon - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c3GdfhWzcc
On 01/28/2018 10:23 PM, Owen Taylor wrote:
If you are interested and think you would regularly attend meetings and participate, please add yourself to:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/AtomicWorkstation/SIG
Added my name. Thanks for setting this up, Owen!
On Mon, 2018-01-29 at 07:45 +0100, Kalev Lember wrote:
On 01/28/2018 10:23 PM, Owen Taylor wrote:
If you are interested and think you would regularly attend meetings and participate, please add yourself to:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/AtomicWorkstation/SIG
Added my name. Thanks for setting this up, Owen!
I'm interested in the automated testing angle of this (Owen and I have talked about what openQA can bring to the table), but 1300 UTC does not work for me. That's fine, I think, though, as the initial work will likely be around fixing the compose issues and making sure we have an image at least regularly available for testing.
Please do feel free to poke me any time I can help out on this front, and if a regular Fedora QA presence becomes necessary, we can probably get pschindl from my team to attend: he is in Brno timezone and has experience with RH's a11y-based desktop tests, and he is also currently getting up to speed with openQA to help me out with that.
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Owen Taylor wrote:
Hi desktop-list and others,
There was a lot of interest around Atomic Workstation at DevConf.cz - there were three talks specifically about Atomic Workstation (*), in addition to quite a few related talks.
We should try to catch some of this momentum and figure out how to move the project forward. My thought is that it would be useful to set up a regular IRC meeting, probably every two weeks - more or less an Atomic Workstation SIG.
I'll likely join this meeting most of the time, but I'm not sure I can commit to being part of the SIG officially - anyways @jlebon knows the ostree/rpm-ostree side well. I think it'd be best if I keep my focus on Atomic Host primarily as well as handling the IoT/embedded cases.
But obviously I use this today and am quite invested in seeing it succeed; I'll be fixing bugs regardless ;)
Sanja Bonic and Colin Walters - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4IPWlfkJSo
Also: Jan Pazdziora: Minimizing workstation installation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWoFpOoA-tE
And I'd really recommend that anyone interested in all of this to try investing in containerizing their desktop *first*. I know a ton of people are interested in the transaction updates from rpm-ostree; and yes it's awesome, but in itself it's a huge change.
Let me put it this way; sure, you can: `rpm-ostree install fedpkg gcc-c++ golang cargo`. But you're not doing "Atomic Workstation" then. (And yes, I really do use fedpkg from a container, it mostly works because the lack of user namespaces means fedpkg build picks up kerberos from my host's uid)
Also of course, you can `oc cluster up` on yum-managed hosts just as easily. And if OpenShift fits your use case, do that *first* too.
Kalev Lember - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc7lvkl5atE Jonathan Lebon - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c3GdfhWzcc
Also Colin Walters: Hybrid image/package OS updates with rpm-ostree - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWoFpOoA-tE (And after watching this a bit I think you can skip to ~6:47 or so if you want to get to the point more quickly)
Let me say again just to emphasize; try containerizing your desktop first!
On Tue, Jan 30, 2018, at 12:22 PM, Colin Walters wrote:
Let me put it this way; sure, you can: `rpm-ostree install fedpkg gcc-c++ golang cargo`. But you're not doing "Atomic Workstation" then.
That said though, the message is definitely not you *can't* install packages. As I said in my rpm-ostree talk, it became much, much more practical for me to use Atomic Host on my basement "pet" server when I could `rpm-ostree install libvirt`. And in fact this very same thing is true on the desktop side; I use virt-manager still a lot, plus other apps which aren't flatpak'd yet like keepass, and actually for keepass I kind of like it comes from a distribution which theoretically has a mechanism for peer review of changes. And of course true "extension" things like powerline and VPNs.
Some people may choose to e.g. install `ansible` on their host system. I personally run it from my dev container, though one thing I haven't settled on is sharing my SSH auth socket with the container.
So things are fuzzy, and I think that's how it's going to be for years going forward. We now have a spectrum of tools, some with dramatic advantages over simply using yum for everything in your root filesystem; it's not free of downsides, but we'll get better at ameliorating those over time.
The devel tools in "dev container" pattern though really works so well IMO there's not *too* much excuse not to do it. The main sticking point is probably IDE integration.
Let me say again just to emphasize; try containerizing your desktop first!
To be clear I mean your *existing* desktop.
On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 8:47 PM, Colin Walters walters@verbum.org wrote:
The devel tools in "dev container" pattern though really works so well IMO there's not *too* much excuse not to do it. The main sticking point is probably IDE integration.
This really depends on what you're developing. I don't see the "dev container" workflow work for a Gtk app... you'd have to build it in the container, and then run it outside of the container. It sounds to me like this would get confusing really quickly. (stuff like "why doesn't this work? oh, I'm in the container still") Last time I checked you can't run graphical applications inside "normal" containers (but that was a while ago, so maybe I'm outdated)?
Let me say again just to emphasize; try containerizing your desktop
first!
To be clear I mean your *existing* desktop.
I think it'd be beneficial if you could write a blog post explaining your environment setup and workflow. (or maybe a wikipage that we could use as a "user story" kind of thing)
On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 8:47 PM, Colin Walters walters@verbum.org wrote:
The devel tools in "dev container" pattern though really works so well IMO there's not *too* much excuse not to do it. The main sticking point is probably IDE integration.
This really depends on what you're developing. I don't see the "dev container" workflow work for a Gtk app... you'd have to build it in the container, and then run it outside of the container. It sounds to me like this would get confusing really quickly. (stuff like "why doesn't this work? oh, I'm in the container still") Last time I checked you can't run graphical applications inside "normal" containers (but that was a while ago, so maybe I'm outdated)?
Would GNOME Builder be better for GUI apps? I haven't tried myself, but it might be cleaner to get that path working instead.
Also note that you don't have to run the app itself in the container. You can hack, `make`, and `make install` to a mounted host dir, and then run it on the host. It does make iterating slightly more cumbersome, though that's part of the "better tooling required" discussed in this thread.
Would GNOME Builder be better for GUI apps? I haven't tried myself, but it might be cleaner to get that path working instead.
This should be working very well at this point - Christian spent some time running builder on Atomic Workstation over the Xmas break, and fixed all the issues he ran into.
Flatpak would definitely be my suggestion for GUI apps - if the tooling natively supports it (like GNOME builder), or you write the necessary makefile rules/scripts, it can be a quite good development experience.
At devconf.cz we briefly discussed whether it made sense to try to make things a little nicer for using a Flatpak SDK as a "pet container", but we didn't come up with any conclusive answers.
Owen
On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 8:47 PM, Colin Walters walters@verbum.org wrote:
The devel tools in "dev container" pattern though really works so well IMO there's not *too* much excuse not to do it. The main sticking point is probably IDE integration.
This really depends on what you're developing. I don't see the "dev container" workflow work for a Gtk app... you'd have to build it in the container, and then run it outside of the container. It sounds to me like this would get confusing really quickly. (stuff like "why doesn't this work? oh, I'm in the container still") Last time I checked you can't run graphical applications inside "normal" containers (but that was a while ago, so maybe I'm outdated)?
Let me say again just to emphasize; try containerizing your desktop
first!
To be clear I mean your *existing* desktop.
I think it'd be beneficial if you could write a blog post explaining your environment setup and workflow. (or maybe a wikipage that we could use as a "user story" kind of thing)
-- -Elad.
desktop mailing list -- desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to desktop-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 4:23 PM, Owen Taylor otaylor@redhat.com wrote:
Please include your timezone, and whether you would would be able to make a meeting opposite weeks from the workstation working group - Monday 13:00 UTC - that's one time that comes to mind, but I'm not at at all tied to it.
It turns out that I (and the fedora calendar) were slightly wrong about the desktop working group meeting is at 9:00 AM US/Eastern, which is 13:00 UTC in the summer, but 14:00 UTC now. 13:00 UTC is actually a bit hard for me. I added another column to the wiki for the time I actually meant.
Owen
We've set the date for the inaugural meeting for Monday February 19, 14utc, which is ... next Monday! For now, we have a Bluejeans call set up:
https://bluejeans.com/8791452528
Hope to see you there!
I'm interested in establishing a UX design role in the context of Atomic Workstation. Would the Atomic Workstation SIG be a good place to do that?
Allan
Hey Allan,
Definitely! Would you like to join us at the first SIG meeting on Monday, 18 Feb?
Best, Sanja
On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:25 PM, Allan Day aday@gnome.org wrote:
I'm interested in establishing a UX design role in the context of Atomic Workstation. Would the Atomic Workstation SIG be a good place to do that?
Allan
*19 Feb
On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:39 PM, Sanja Bonic sanja@redhat.com wrote:
Hey Allan,
Definitely! Would you like to join us at the first SIG meeting on Monday, 18 Feb?
Best, Sanja
On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:25 PM, Allan Day aday@gnome.org wrote:
I'm interested in establishing a UX design role in the context of Atomic Workstation. Would the Atomic Workstation SIG be a good place to do that?
Allan
Sanja Bonic sanja@redhat.com wrote: ...
Definitely! Would you like to join us at the first SIG meeting on Monday, 18 Feb?
Absolutely, thanks for the invitation!
Allan
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