Hi,
It's all about picking default settings new users wish. Imagine a user who is coming from Windows to Fedora, but he has no clue how linux works. It would greatly help him if the linux behaved to some extent similar to Windows - meaning applications look (themes), window's buttons layout (in this case same), menu layout, keyboard shortcuts etc. The same for users coming from Mac OS and for users used to Gnome and switching to KDE and opposite way. The idea is that user selects what he wants his desktop resemble, and then the usage of the desktop would be more intuitive to him.
What would we need for that? 1. Check out, how much we can set up GNOME/KDE to look and behave like other DEs/OSes 2. If some of the stuff which makes this easier is available, but not in fedora, get it into repository 3. Write a utility that can change the DE's settings to what we have found in 1. 4. Integrate the utility into anaconda or first boot.
The utility should be pretty straightforward - you will have a bunch of radio buttons captioned Windows 9x, Windows XP, Windows Vista, Mac OS X (dunno version differences though, might need more radio buttons for that one), GNOME, KDE (for how it should look like) and a two check boxes with simple description of GNOME and KDE (in the description should be noted primarily differences between those to, to ease selection to one who has no idea what GNOME/KDE is; for what will be used as 'backend').
Just a though... Your opinions? Is it even desirable? Does it make sense?
Martin
fre, 24 08 2007 kl. 19:15 +0200, skrev Martin Sourada:
Hi,
It's all about picking default settings new users wish. Imagine a user who is coming from Windows to Fedora, but he has no clue how linux works. It would greatly help him if the linux behaved to some extent similar to Windows - meaning applications look (themes), window's buttons layout (in this case same), menu layout, keyboard shortcuts etc. The same for users coming from Mac OS and for users used to Gnome and switching to KDE and opposite way. The idea is that user selects what he wants his desktop resemble, and then the usage of the desktop would be more intuitive to him.
What would we need for that? 1. Check out, how much we can set up GNOME/KDE to look and behave like other DEs/OSes 2. If some of the stuff which makes this easier is available, but not in fedora, get it into repository 3. Write a utility that can change the DE's settings to what we have found in 1. 4. Integrate the utility into anaconda or first boot.
The utility should be pretty straightforward - you will have a bunch of radio buttons captioned Windows 9x, Windows XP, Windows Vista, Mac OS X (dunno version differences though, might need more radio buttons for that one), GNOME, KDE (for how it should look like) and a two check boxes with simple description of GNOME and KDE (in the description should be noted primarily differences between those to, to ease selection to one who has no idea what GNOME/KDE is; for what will be used as 'backend').
Just a though... Your opinions? Is it even desirable? Does it make sense?
Chasing after a look and feel of a platform the user is already trying to escape, repeating the same visual mistakes as seen in those platform for familiarity' sake? Doesn't sound appealing to me, Fedora is it's own platform and we should work to make it the best one we are able to do by innovation not by emulation.
If we don't do that Fedora will be nothing but a free version of Windows, it will look and feel the same but it will fundamentally not improve anything.
Now I am all for looking at technologies like the migration tool Ubuntu has developed to ensure that all the users data and account settings are transferred safely so that mail will work and that picture of the family dog will still be on the background.. but please don't turn Fedora into a cheap knock-off, despite rumours to the contrary, people can believe it's not butter.
- David Nielsen
On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 19:15 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
Hi,
It's all about picking default settings new users wish. Imagine a user who is coming from Windows to Fedora, but he has no clue how linux works. It would greatly help him if the linux behaved to some extent similar to Windows - meaning applications look (themes), window's buttons layout (in this case same), menu layout, keyboard shortcuts etc. The same for users coming from Mac OS and for users used to Gnome and switching to KDE and opposite way. The idea is that user selects what he wants his desktop resemble, and then the usage of the desktop would be more intuitive to him.
Bzzt, logical fallacy. Read about the uncanny valley, then apply that lesson to your argument. Point for point emulation is not just technically infeasible, it's also a really really bad idea.
- ajax
Martin Sourada wrote:
Just a though... Your opinions? Is it even desirable? Does it make sense?
-1000 ! --- fedora is not supposed to be a "better windows" but a different OS look & fell can also be different as long as it isn't complicated and the user does not need to RTFM to understand how to do basic task. but to be honest I don'z think that the gnome or kde look and feel are a problem for somebody who switches from windows to linux. The things that are complely different are: * software installation (no setup.exe ..click, click, click) but I think packagekit/pirut and friends are not to complex for windows users to get used to and after sometime they will start to love them (no hunting for apps on the net/disks but simply search for it and the system does the download and install for them) * driver installation: users should not install drivers at all everything should just work everything else its a bug ... the problem here is that some vendors does not help us with this goal. --- I think thats basicly it opening a file using nautilus/konqueror or with the windows explorer isn't much different. starting a app from a menu that is not 1:1 the same as the windows one? well if the user can use the mouse and read he will find the app in menu. I could continue here but I wont what I want to say is USERS AREN'T IDOITS! (well some are but they have problems with other oses to so copying their look & feel does not help) ... making things easier is ok but don't assume that user can't learn anything new. (and in that cases it isn't _that_ new at all)
On Sun, 2007-08-26 at 13:32 +0200, dragoran wrote:
Martin Sourada wrote:
Just a though... Your opinions? Is it even desirable? Does it make sense?
-1000 !
fedora is not supposed to be a "better windows" but a different OS look & fell can also be different as long as it isn't complicated and the user does not need to RTFM to understand how to do basic task. but to be honest I don'z think that the gnome or kde look and feel are a problem for somebody who switches from windows to linux. The things that are complely different are:
- software installation (no setup.exe ..click, click, click)
but I think packagekit/pirut and friends are not to complex for windows users to get used to and after sometime they will start to love them (no hunting for apps on the net/disks but simply search for it and the system does the download and install for them)
Actually I think that pirut is far better and easier than just some setup.exe. Besides, you can download a rpm and double-click on it in nautilus, if you don't like pirut itself. Nevertheless, I think it's much more easier to just open applications list, check some apps you want to install/remove and apply the changes. What can be easier? In windows you are nearly unable to (un)install more than one app in one go. The only problems here are that linux apps are not so good known as their windows variants - that's one of the reasons why the group view is cool thing - some of the applications isn't in our repos - but thanks to community the number is lesser and lesser every now and then.
- driver installation:
users should not install drivers at all everything should just work everything else its a bug ... the problem here is that some vendors does not help us with this goal.
I think thats basicly it opening a file using nautilus/konqueror or with the windows explorer isn't much different. starting a app from a menu that is not 1:1 the same as the windows one? well if the user can use the mouse and read he will find the app in menu. I could continue here but I wont what I want to say is USERS AREN'T IDOITS! (well some are but they have problems with other oses to so copying their look & feel does not help) ... making things easier is ok but don't assume that user can't learn anything new. (and in that cases it isn't _that_ new at all)
+1!
I just thought about setting some basic things, like panel layout, keyboard shortcuts and like - no app changes - with one ore two clicks...
Martin Sourada wrote:
Actually I think that pirut is far better and easier than just some setup.exe. Besides, you can download a rpm and double-click on it in nautilus, if you don't like pirut itself. Nevertheless, I think it's much more easier to just open applications list, check some apps you want to install/remove and apply the changes. What can be easier? In windows you are nearly unable to (un)install more than one app in one go. The only problems here are that linux apps are not so good known as their windows variants - that's one of the reasons why the group view is cool thing - some of the applications isn't in our repos - but thanks to community the number is lesser and lesser every now and then.
+1
I just thought about setting some basic things, like panel layout, keyboard shortcuts and like - no app changes - with one ore two clicks...
well I installed fedora on some peoples boxes that where (and are still) using windows and nobody complained about things like the panel layout. what keyboard shortcuts? the only thing thats different in the default config is that the super(windows) key does not open the menu. but everything else is the same as in windows: ctrl+c/x/v alt+f4 alt+tab etc.
On Sun, 2007-08-26 at 14:03 +0200, dragoran wrote:
Martin Sourada wrote:
Actually I think that pirut is far better and easier than just some setup.exe. Besides, you can download a rpm and double-click on it in nautilus, if you don't like pirut itself. Nevertheless, I think it's much more easier to just open applications list, check some apps you want to install/remove and apply the changes. What can be easier? In windows you are nearly unable to (un)install more than one app in one go. The only problems here are that linux apps are not so good known as their windows variants - that's one of the reasons why the group view is cool thing - some of the applications isn't in our repos - but thanks to community the number is lesser and lesser every now and then.
+1
I just thought about setting some basic things, like panel layout, keyboard shortcuts and like - no app changes - with one ore two clicks...
well I installed fedora on some peoples boxes that where (and are still) using windows and nobody complained about things like the panel layout. what keyboard shortcuts? the only thing thats different in the default config is that the super(windows) key does not open the menu. but everything else is the same as in windows: ctrl+c/x/v alt+f4 alt+tab etc.
Some does and some does not. I always hear KDE people whining about two panel layout in GNOME, while I cannot imagine having only one panel. I think it is much the same with Windows and Mac people, though not to such extent. If the shortcuts were same, KDE would not have a utility for setting them according to user wishes. But yeah, most of them are same (like the copy/paste you mentioned, but I like the select and paste with middle mouse button more), but not ALL. That's the point here. E.g. in gnome when you hit ctrl-alt-del, system monitor does not pop up ;-)
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