On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 14:01 +0100, David Nielsen wrote:

2009/2/24 Bastien Nocera bnocera@redhat.com On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 08:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote: > Per the request of Brian Pebble I am submitting the following feature > proposal for the desktop SIG to comment on: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer

    Given that the feature request is a knee-jerk reaction[1] to
    one
    Rhythmbox maintainer saying he sees the current code base as a
    dead-end
    for a few use cases, I'm pretty happy to say I'd refuse the
    idea
    point-blank.

As I explained to you in a reply to the accusatorial private email you sent me, this is clearly based on the technical superiority of Banshee. I have previously expressed an interest in proposing this.

<snip>

Now will you please show your fellow Fedora contributors some common decency and respect.

I think we got past that point when you proposed this feature for inclusion without discussing it with any of the other interested parties.

This is not the same as replacing Pidgin with Empathy, or replacing nautilus-cd-burner with Brasero. The former just got into GNOME, and is a front-end to a new platform feature, and the latter was replaced (acrimonously) upstream.

    It also seems the latest stable release crashes when playing
    videos on
    my machine, and spits out loads of uncaught exceptions on
    startup.

    FWIW, I've added my comments to:
    https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer
    and filed the two bugs I found whilst starting up Banshee:

I will reply to these as soon as possible

    https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487117
    https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487120

Thank you for your bugreports, as you will have noticed I have already started working on them.

I filed 2 more when trying to reproduce those bugs: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487152 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487155

Cheers

Den 25. feb. 2009 00.19 skrev Martin Sourada martin.sourada@gmail.com:

...

Well, I am not a member of the desktop SIG and as such I have no word in the actual choosing (other than expressing my opinion), but I personally don't think it is a good idea. First of all Rhythmbox was still Gnome default audio player and Totem video player last time I checked, second I am regular user of both and actually find them pretty usable *and* efficient and third, but not last, banshee is pulling in mono stuff, which is first a bit controversial (a really tiny bit, mostly caused by the fact that C# was developed by a certain company that people in *nix world don't usually have pleasant tea parties with) and second, most importantly, for the Desktop Live Spin it's another ~30 MiB worth of packages...

Rhythmbox is not the default GNOME mediaplayer, GNOME only ships Totem.

Till such a time as Fedora deems Mono non-free, the fact that Mono and banshee is present means it lives up to the strict guidelines for freedom Fedora requires and should be able to be considered on equal footing. If we are second class citizens without any chance of ever being included please tell us officially, I am sure I and the other people working tirelessly to improve Mono would love to know if we are wasting our time, if that is the case it might save everyone a lot of headaches and wasted manhours of contributions that could be invested in non-Fedora venue which is interested in this work.

I am aware of the media size increase, it is noted as a con. I know there is space to be saved by getting the debug stripper fixed to understand mono as every package currently ships those included since this functionality still isn't present. i have also been able to shave a bit off cleaning out the dependency chain. I am also investigating other improvements to our mono stack which should give size decreases for the entire stack.

Also from what I read, it also joins the functionality of video and audio players... Well, while there is some non-zero intersection of those, I don't quite like having it both managed by one app. That's not how gnome apps usually do it.

I have to admit I kinda like it, I was skeptical at first. Where it really starts to shine is for video podcasts, automatically downloaded (and with a bit of dbus magic even torrent payloads can be downloaded which is really powerful not to mention shiny). There is an increasing intersection of differing kinds of media in peoples collections, vodcasts, music videos, tv shows, movies, e.g. I believe it's valuable to interact with them through the same library and application.

- David Nielsen

David Nielsen wrote:

Den 25. feb. 2009 00.19 skrev Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com mailto:martin.sourada@gmail.com>:

>
Well, I am not a member of the desktop SIG and as such I have no
word in
the actual choosing (other than expressing my opinion), but I
personally
don't think it is a good idea. First of all Rhythmbox was still Gnome
default audio player and Totem video player last time I checked,
second
I am regular user of both and actually find them pretty usable *and*
efficient and third, but not last, banshee is pulling in mono stuff,
which is first a bit controversial (a really tiny bit, mostly
caused by
the fact that C# was developed by a certain company that people in
*nix
world don't usually have pleasant tea parties with) and second, most
importantly, for the Desktop Live Spin it's another ~30 MiB worth of
packages...

Rhythmbox is not the default GNOME mediaplayer, GNOME only ships Totem.

Till such a time as Fedora deems Mono non-free, the fact that Mono and banshee is present means it lives up to the strict guidelines for freedom Fedora requires and should be able to be considered on equal footing. If we are second class citizens without any chance of ever being included please tell us officially, I am sure I and the other people working tirelessly to improve Mono would love to know if we are wasting our time, if that is the case it might save everyone a lot of headaches and wasted manhours of contributions that could be invested in non-Fedora venue which is interested in this work.

I am aware of the media size increase, it is noted as a con. I know there is space to be saved by getting the debug stripper fixed to understand mono as every package currently ships those included since this functionality still isn't present. i have also been able to shave a bit off cleaning out the dependency chain. I am also investigating other improvements to our mono stack which should give size decreases for the entire stack.

Also from what I read, it also joins the functionality of video and
audio players... Well, while there is some non-zero intersection of
those, I don't quite like having it both managed by one app.
That's not
how gnome apps usually do it.

I have to admit I kinda like it, I was skeptical at first. Where it really starts to shine is for video podcasts, automatically downloaded (and with a bit of dbus magic even torrent payloads can be downloaded which is really powerful not to mention shiny). There is an increasing intersection of differing kinds of media in peoples collections, vodcasts, music videos, tv shows, movies, e.g. I believe it's valuable to interact with them through the same library and application.

• David Nielsen

David,

I am sure that everyone in the group appreciated your and others efforts to support Mono applications. I am interested in your comment about shaving off some of the size of the Mono "stack". We have been having the discussion about perceived desktop performance. In years past, as a real time systems programmer, I became very aware that one of the primary performance issues is the size of the code that is being executed. In reducing the size of the "stack", will you also be providing something of an inprovement to the perceived performance of the applications using that "stack"?

-Roy Bynum

On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 00:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote:

Till such a time as Fedora deems Mono non-free, the fact that Mono and banshee is present means it lives up to the strict guidelines for freedom Fedora requires and should be able to be considered on equal footing. If we are second class citizens without any chance of ever being included please tell us officially, I am sure I and the other people working tirelessly to improve Mono would love to know if we are wasting our time, if that is the case it might save everyone a lot of headaches and wasted manhours of contributions that could be invested in non-Fedora venue which is interested in this work.

Red Hat Enterprise Linux continues to not ship mono. Draw your own conclusions.