Dear developers, sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format, which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora mailing lists.
Regards, Dominik (who still reads e-mail in text mode in a terminal)
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:50 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < dominik@greysector.net> wrote:
Dear developers,
Hello, Dominik ;)
sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format, which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora mailing lists.
I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
Gmail -> compose -> options (bottom right) -> plain text mode
doesn't work for you?
(I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check it)
--
Michal Schorm Associate Software Engineer Core Services - Databases Team Red Hat
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM Michal Schorm mschorm@redhat.com wrote:
I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
Gmail -> compose -> options (bottom right) -> plain text mode
doesn't work for you?
(I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check it)
This is not respected by any of the mobile apps.
On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 07:27, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM Michal Schorm wrote:
I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
Gmail -> compose -> options (bottom right) -> plain text mode
doesn't work for you?
(I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check it)
This is not respected by any of the mobile apps.
Then don't use mobile apps to send email. :) What is the problem?
(sent via gmail on desktop browser with the settings above)
Orcan
On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 13:00:54 +0200 Michal Schorm mschorm@redhat.com wrote:
Gmail -> compose -> options (bottom right) -> plain text mode
doesn't work for you?
(I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check it)
Yeah, there was no HTML part.
Andrew
On Tuesday, 02 October 2018 at 12:55, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:50 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < dominik@greysector.net> wrote:
Dear developers,
Hello, Dominik ;)
sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format, which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora mailing lists.
I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
Stop sending e-mail to public mailing lists using Gmail, then? Or are you going to pay for affected people's bandwith? Mailing lists have push delivery model, so it's not possible to filter-out only HTML e-mail before it's already downloaded.
Regards, Dominik
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 3:40 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski dominik@greysector.net wrote:
Stop sending e-mail to public mailing lists using Gmail, then?
Perhaps we've reached the end of meaningful conversation in this thread....
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 3:41 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski dominik@greysector.net wrote:
On Tuesday, 02 October 2018 at 12:55, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:50 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < dominik@greysector.net> wrote:
Dear developers,
Hello, Dominik ;)
sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format, which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora mailing lists.
I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
Stop sending e-mail to public mailing lists using Gmail, then? Or are you going to pay for affected people's bandwith? Mailing lists have push delivery model, so it's not possible to filter-out only HTML e-mail before it's already downloaded.
Regards, Dominik
I don't think we want to exclude people on mobile devices from discussions. There are multiple reasons for not being able (or willing) to sit in front of a PC when discussions happen here in real time - among them, "office hours" depend on your time zone, some people are contributing in their free time and have $DAYJOB where they don't sit at a PC, watching the mailing lists, but might only become aware of ongoing discussions on their mobile devices.
This happens to me quite often - discussions happen while I'm unaware (or only have a phone with me), and by the time I'm at my PC, they are over, decisions have been reached, everybody has moved on. I don't think policies which would effectively discourage discussion contributions by non-professionals / volunteers would be helpful. A programmatical solution to the "HTML problem" at the server level would be preferable (if possible) ...
Fabio
(Sent from GMail in Plain Text mode on my fedora machine)
-- Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and oppression to develop psychic muscles. -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 15:40:19 +0200,
Stop sending e-mail to public mailing lists using Gmail, then? Or are you going to pay for affected people's bandwith? Mailing lists have push delivery model, so it's not possible to filter-out only HTML e-mail before it's already downloaded.
It is, but it has to be done server side. I think mailman supports dropping html attachments which should work pretty well for multipart/alternative messages. For html only messages you would either need to reject them or rewrite them, both of which have issues.
On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 12:55:12PM +0200, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:50 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < dominik@greysector.net> wrote:
Dear developers,
Hello, Dominik ;)
sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format, which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora mailing lists.
I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
At least it's sending a proper text/plain alternative.
I've seen far worse, such as corporate mail systems that send a snotty message along the lines of "install an HTML-capable email reader" as the text alternative. Clue for those developers: If your software is too stupid to create a text alternative, don't send one at all.
Rich.
On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:11 AM Richard W.M. Jones rjones@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 12:55:12PM +0200, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:50 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < dominik@greysector.net> wrote:
Dear developers,
Hello, Dominik ;)
sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format, which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora mailing lists.
I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
It seems to randomly change the settings over time, however there's a way to do so, in the bottom corner of the reply textfield, next to trash icon, there's a menu. If you click on that you will have access to the "plain text mode" option.
At least it's sending a proper text/plain alternative.
I've seen far worse, such as corporate mail systems that send a snotty message along the lines of "install an HTML-capable email reader" as the text alternative. Clue for those developers: If your software is too stupid to create a text alternative, don't send one at all.
Well, yeah, but some people don't really have a choice and it would be unfair to ask them not to contribute because we don't like HTML mailers (which is a problem, I agree, but shouldn't be discriminatory).
<returning-to-the-cave> Cheers, Mario </returning-to-the-cave>
On Tue, 2 Oct 2018, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote:
So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora mailing lists.
Regards, Dominik (who still reads e-mail in text mode in a terminal)
+1
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:48 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski dominik@greysector.net wrote:
Dear developers, sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format, which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora mailing lists.
It's a valid complaint. Gmail has a Plain text mode in the popdown menu to the right of the trash. Usually this is a sticky setting, but for reasons I can't figure out it sometimes silently unsticks (I think only on replies, not new mails). And Gmail on both iOS and Android lacks the option entirely, which is where you're going to get the bulk of top posting and html replies.
Considering it's 2018, and plain text and bottom posting are policies, I'd like to think some clever person could make a mailing list program apply the policy by striping out the html, recognizing top posting and putting it at the bottom of the quoted text. And in fact this could have been done 10 years ago but for whatever reason people seem to prefer endlessly pointing to impossible guidelines and then complaining when people or their chosen MUA fails the policy.
Meanwhile over on the vger kernel mailing lists, they bounce emails that contain html. Which is super annoying because now I can't reply from my phone, but at least no one is complaining about html emails on any of those lists.
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:49 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski dominik@greysector.net wrote:
Dear developers, sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format, which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
The place to fix this is at the listserver. Either bounce HTML emails like kernel.org does, or strip the HTML. I support the latter but not the former. It severely limits my participation to have emails bounce.
As for the top and bottom post thing, I agree top posting is annoying but again, that ship has sailed on mobile. There's no going back, and I wish this whole debate would just die by us giving up and going with top posting as the preferred way.
On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 at 13:23, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:49 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski dominik@greysector.net wrote:
Dear developers, sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format, which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
The place to fix this is at the listserver. Either bounce HTML emails like kernel.org does, or strip the HTML. I support the latter but not the former. It severely limits my participation to have emails bounce.
As for the top and bottom post thing, I agree top posting is annoying
but again, that ship has sailed on mobile. There's no going back, and I wish this whole debate would just die by us giving up and going with top posting as the preferred way.
It just means the conversation shifts for when someone posts in context that they are not following the social path.. you then end up with long diatribes about how in-context breaks X,Y,Z things that top-posting people require. In the end, it is mostly about social filtering... there are those who follow 'a convention' and those who do not. We are filtering our in-house people versus our unclean just like any other org.
-- Chris Murphy _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
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