Le Lun 22 octobre 2007 11:36, Valent Turkovic a écrit :
Please make it on by default also for DVD install images.
Till it works for all the systems Fedora targets (including those with no permanent GUI session that also need network/wifi connexion) the answer is no.
Right now NetworkManager is targetting a very small user niche, so it's only usable as default in the spin dedicated to this niche (and one could argue the spin desktop target audience is wider than the laptop-only no-daemon dumbed-down desktop NetworkManager supports)
Nicolas Mailhot <nicolas.mailhot <at> laposte.net> writes:
Le Lun 22 octobre 2007 11:36, Valent Turkovic a écrit :
Please make it on by default also for DVD install images.
Till it works for all the systems Fedora targets (including those with no permanent GUI session that also need network/wifi connexion) the answer is no.
Having recently got wpa_supplicant working in F7 with ipw2200 and another machine with iwl3945, I am now definitely a fan of wpa_supplicant as opposed to NM. I can configure a machine to bring up a wireless connection at boot now and it will connect either at home or at work - and that is ideal for a user that wants to boot and then load a browser and work with the web or then do office stuff. The many people who have made the in-kernel drivers, wpa_supplicant and NM as well ought to be congratulated on getting this into a working state. However there are further developments yet to be done - getting rt2x00 and ath5k working would be another huge step forward.
Yes, I can configure the necessary admin side in the background but the non-technical user sometimes would prefer not even to have to select a wireless AP from the NM menu.
I have several family members who are F7 fans now but are definitely not technical when it comes to installing or setting up the system.
On 10/22/07, Mike C mike.cohler@gmail.com wrote:
Nicolas Mailhot <nicolas.mailhot <at> laposte.net> writes:
Le Lun 22 octobre 2007 11:36, Valent Turkovic a écrit :
Please make it on by default also for DVD install images.
Till it works for all the systems Fedora targets (including those with no permanent GUI session that also need network/wifi connexion) the answer is no.
Having recently got wpa_supplicant working in F7 with ipw2200 and another machine with iwl3945, I am now definitely a fan of wpa_supplicant as opposed to NM. I can configure a machine to bring up a wireless connection at boot now and it will connect either at home or at work - and that is ideal for a user that wants to boot and then load a browser and work with the web or then do office stuff. The many people who have made the in-kernel drivers, wpa_supplicant and NM as well ought to be congratulated on getting this into a working state. However there are further developments yet to be done - getting rt2x00 and ath5k working would be another huge step forward.
Can you give a little how-to or a link to resources you used to setup wpa_supplicant to work at home and office?
Yes, I can configure the necessary admin side in the background but the non-technical user sometimes would prefer not even to have to select a wireless AP from the NM menu.
My my family members I can see that choosing a network via some menue (winxp or NM) is something they can handle but setting up a new network connection for each one and then switching from one to other is not in their domain...
I have several family members who are F7 fans now but are definitely not technical when it comes to installing or setting up the system.
Great!
On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 20:41 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote:
On 10/22/07, Mike C mike.cohler@gmail.com wrote:
Nicolas Mailhot <nicolas.mailhot <at> laposte.net> writes:
Le Lun 22 octobre 2007 11:36, Valent Turkovic a écrit :
Please make it on by default also for DVD install images.
Till it works for all the systems Fedora targets (including those with no permanent GUI session that also need network/wifi connexion) the answer is no.
Having recently got wpa_supplicant working in F7 with ipw2200 and another machine with iwl3945, I am now definitely a fan of wpa_supplicant as opposed to NM. I can configure a machine to bring up a wireless connection at boot now and it will connect either at home or at work - and that is ideal for a user that wants to boot and then load a browser and work with the web or then do office stuff. The many people who have made the in-kernel drivers, wpa_supplicant and NM as well ought to be congratulated on getting this into a working state. However there are further developments yet to be done - getting rt2x00 and ath5k working would be another huge step forward.
Can you give a little how-to or a link to resources you used to setup wpa_supplicant to work at home and office?
Usually you specify multiple network blocks in the conf file and as long as ap_scan=1 wpa_supplicant will pick the first one that it can match to some scan results.
Dan
Yes, I can configure the necessary admin side in the background but the non-technical user sometimes would prefer not even to have to select a wireless AP from the NM menu.
My my family members I can see that choosing a network via some menue (winxp or NM) is something they can handle but setting up a new network connection for each one and then switching from one to other is not in their domain...
I have several family members who are F7 fans now but are definitely not technical when it comes to installing or setting up the system.
Great!
-- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic
On 10/22/07, Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mailhot@laposte.net wrote:
Le Lun 22 octobre 2007 11:36, Valent Turkovic a écrit :
Please make it on by default also for DVD install images.
Till it works for all the systems Fedora targets (including those with no permanent GUI session that also need network/wifi connexion) the answer is no.
Right now NetworkManager is targetting a very small user niche, so it's only usable as default in the spin dedicated to this niche (and one could argue the spin desktop target audience is wider than the laptop-only no-daemon dumbed-down desktop NetworkManager supports)
Ok, I trust you have much more expertise with this topic.
Can I ask you (and all other fedora devels) one general question that regards usability, desktop users and wireless...?
How do you expect average users who are new to linux and install fedora from DVD to use wireless?
Is the NetworkManager only option (if they find it and start it in the first place)? Are you making some fedora specific tool for easy connectivity based on system-config-network?
Is using system-config-network only way of setting up and using wireless network via gui in fedora?
Thank you for all of your comments, Valent.
Le mardi 23 octobre 2007 à 22:30 +0200, Valent Turkovic a écrit :
Ok, I trust you have much more expertise with this topic.
I don't have more expertise than being told time after time by the NetworkManager guys that their stuff depended on a GNOME applet and that it was not intended to work for systems that ran network-dependant daemons or did network-dependant stuff outside the GUI session.
So it's not a general networking solution. Therefore it's not a suitable default for the Fedora DVD version, which is supposed to be general-purpose.
And that sucks for you and Fedora in general but I didn't dig this particular hole. I'd be the first delighted person if the NetworkManager team told us "we want to be the general Fedora networking solution, and be enabled by default on more than the desktop spin".
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:49:50 +0200 Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mailhot@laposte.net wrote:
And that sucks for you and Fedora in general but I didn't dig this particular hole. I'd be the first delighted person if the NetworkManager team told us "we want to be the general Fedora networking solution, and be enabled by default on more than the desktop spin".
That's the plan for F9, and why NM got a rewrite in F8.
On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 16:54 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:49:50 +0200 Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mailhot@laposte.net wrote:
And that sucks for you and Fedora in general but I didn't dig this particular hole. I'd be the first delighted person if the NetworkManager team told us "we want to be the general Fedora networking solution, and be enabled by default on more than the desktop spin".
That's the plan for F9, and why NM got a rewrite in F8.
Right; NM 0.7 and later is definitely _not_ targetted at a "very narrow niche". It's targeted at hopefully >= 75% of the use-cases of Fedora.
Perhaps this weekend (unless I'm still fixing bugs with NM in general) I'll integrate the work Soren did for a system config service which will allow connections to be brought up before you log in. That's the only real blocker to using NM in a GUI-less server-type environment if you like. Other than that, most of the bits for static IP support are in (applet bits to follow), the options to lock things like 802.3 duplex, speed, and other stuff are in-progress by Tambet, and most of the wireless options work.
By the holidays, I expect we can flip NM on by default in Rawhide, even if it's not default in F8.
Dan
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Dan Williams wrote:
Right; NM 0.7 and later is definitely _not_ targetted at a "very narrow niche". It's targeted at hopefully >= 75% of the use-cases of Fedora.
Perhaps this weekend (unless I'm still fixing bugs with NM in general) I'll integrate the work Soren did for a system config service which will allow connections to be brought up before you log in. That's the only real blocker to using NM in a GUI-less server-type environment if you like. Other than that, most of the bits for static IP support are in (applet bits to follow), the options to lock things like 802.3 duplex, speed, and other stuff are in-progress by Tambet, and most of the wireless options work.
By the holidays, I expect we can flip NM on by default in Rawhide, even if it's not default in F8.
A general comment re. NM. It did seem odd the way such a large change was made so late in the F8 development cycle, with no real discussion I could see (please do point me to such a discussion if there was one).
For quite a long time it was unusable for lots of people and still seems a little flaky.
Was it a case of the rewrite taking longer than planned?
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:32:22 +0100 Adam Huffman bloch@verdurin.com wrote:
A general comment re. NM. It did seem odd the way such a large change was made so late in the F8 development cycle, with no real discussion I could see (please do point me to such a discussion if there was one).
For quite a long time it was unusable for lots of people and still seems a little flaky.
Was it a case of the rewrite taking longer than planned?
This was discussed and tracked many times in FESCo meetings. It was deemed important enough to work through the delays and have the rewrite for F8, leading to a on by default in F9. Not the least of which if we didn't use it, and say Ubuntu did before us, there is more thunder stolen (:
On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 23:32 +0100, Adam Huffman wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Dan Williams wrote:
Right; NM 0.7 and later is definitely _not_ targetted at a "very narrow niche". It's targeted at hopefully >= 75% of the use-cases of Fedora.
Perhaps this weekend (unless I'm still fixing bugs with NM in general) I'll integrate the work Soren did for a system config service which will allow connections to be brought up before you log in. That's the only real blocker to using NM in a GUI-less server-type environment if you like. Other than that, most of the bits for static IP support are in (applet bits to follow), the options to lock things like 802.3 duplex, speed, and other stuff are in-progress by Tambet, and most of the wireless options work.
By the holidays, I expect we can flip NM on by default in Rawhide, even if it's not default in F8.
A general comment re. NM. It did seem odd the way such a large change was made so late in the F8 development cycle, with no real discussion I could see (please do point me to such a discussion if there was one).
It's mostly about the D-Bus interface. Since the D-Bus interface is no longer insane, but quite clear and usable, switching to 0.7 as an F8 update is completely out of the question. With the new architecture, it's possible to add the following things as follow-on updates to F8 that would be impossible using 0.6.x branch:
1) multiple active devices 2) good static IP support 3) PPP and Bluetooth support 4) Broadband card support (GPRS/UMTS/EVDO/etc) 5) internet connection sharing 6) better handling of similar APs with different security or on different radio bands
These are all things people want and all are only possible building on the architecture that 0.7 provides.
Yes, it's a gamble, and it'll be a bit rocky. But that's _also_ compounded by landing the mac80211 stack and it's 8 or so new drivers in F8 as well (p54, iwl3945, iwl4965, b43legacy, b43, rt2x00, ath5k, zd1211). So many bugs people might encounter with wireless in F8 will be of kernel driver origin, not necessarily due to NetworkManager. We just have to sort out the bugs wherever they may be.
Dan
For quite a long time it was unusable for lots of people and still seems a little flaky.
Was it a case of the rewrite taking longer than planned?
Whoow this was an insightful thread into Fedora networking... thank you all.
Valent.
tir, 23 10 2007 kl. 17:23 -0400, skrev Dan Williams:
On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 16:54 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:49:50 +0200 Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mailhot@laposte.net wrote:
And that sucks for you and Fedora in general but I didn't dig this particular hole. I'd be the first delighted person if the NetworkManager team told us "we want to be the general Fedora networking solution, and be enabled by default on more than the desktop spin".
That's the plan for F9, and why NM got a rewrite in F8.
Right; NM 0.7 and later is definitely _not_ targetted at a "very narrow niche". It's targeted at hopefully >= 75% of the use-cases of Fedora.
Perhaps this weekend (unless I'm still fixing bugs with NM in general) I'll integrate the work Soren did for a system config service which will allow connections to be brought up before you log in. That's the only real blocker to using NM in a GUI-less server-type environment if you like. Other than that, most of the bits for static IP support are in (applet bits to follow), the options to lock things like 802.3 duplex, speed, and other stuff are in-progress by Tambet, and most of the wireless options work.
Excellent to hear, I'm looking forward to deploying this on my home server. NM has gotten really stable for me over the past few days, so I'm overall very pleased with things given that a solution for headless setups is being worked on.
(un)related question, one problem I'm currently experiencing on all my boxes that run NM is that ntp starts up before a network connection is available. It's not a huge issue but it would be a nice thing to fix down the line.
- David
On 10/23/07, Dan Williams dcbw@redhat.com wrote:
Perhaps this weekend (unless I'm still fixing bugs with NM in general) I'll integrate the work Soren did for a system config service which will allow connections to be brought up before you log in.
OT: is this Soren Sandmann? If so, I'm pretty sure now I understand why I had no replies on a mail I sent him lately...
On Wed, 2007-10-24 at 15:13 +0200, Gianluca Sforna wrote:
On 10/23/07, Dan Williams dcbw@redhat.com wrote:
Perhaps this weekend (unless I'm still fixing bugs with NM in general) I'll integrate the work Soren did for a system config service which will allow connections to be brought up before you log in.
OT: is this Soren Sandmann? If so, I'm pretty sure now I understand why I had no replies on a mail I sent him lately...
Correct :)
Dan
On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 16:54:41 -0400, Jesse Keating jkeating@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:49:50 +0200 Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mailhot@laposte.net wrote:
And that sucks for you and Fedora in general but I didn't dig this particular hole. I'd be the first delighted person if the NetworkManager team told us "we want to be the general Fedora networking solution, and be enabled by default on more than the desktop spin".
That's the plan for F9, and why NM got a rewrite in F8.
I was looking for information on NM yesterday and the information I saw suggested that it was not intended to be a general network configuration tool. But in fact seemed to be mostly suited for people who want to connect to wireless networks opportunisticly and who use DHCP to get their wired IP addresses. There was a statement that for static IP addresses it was going to get that data from the network config scripts data.
Is there some roadmap documentation somewhere that suggests a more ambitious plan?
Le mardi 23 octobre 2007 à 16:54 -0400, Jesse Keating a écrit :
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:49:50 +0200 Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mailhot@laposte.net wrote:
And that sucks for you and Fedora in general but I didn't dig this particular hole. I'd be the first delighted person if the NetworkManager team told us "we want to be the general Fedora networking solution, and be enabled by default on more than the desktop spin".
That's the plan for F9, and why NM got a rewrite in F8.
That's a very nice announce and hopefully will put an end to the confusing networking state of Fedora. Many thanks to the NetworkManager team! I hope we manage to get F9 out with a single unified networking system shared by every Fedora spin.
devel@lists.stg.fedoraproject.org
-
Adam Huffman -
Bruno Wolff III -
Dan Williams -
David Nielsen -
Gianluca Sforna -
Jesse Keating -
Mike C -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Valent Turkovic