hi,
I just noticed launch of next brainstorming website. this time, ubuntu one [1] .
first was opensuse [2] , but they had no voting system and no comments notifications.
I wonder if fedora could have such website too, to see what users need.
1| http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ 2| http://idea.opensuse.org/
-- Livio
Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
hi,
I just noticed launch of next brainstorming website. this time, ubuntu one [1] .
first was opensuse [2] , but they had no voting system and no comments notifications.
I wonder if fedora could have such website too, to see what users need.
Does it have to include user only ? We could also build something for maintainers, packagers, people involved in the translation... That could be a subpart of the main part ok...
But I like the idea :)
P.Yves
Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
hi,
I just noticed launch of next brainstorming website. this time, ubuntu one [1] .
first was opensuse [2] , but they had no voting system and no comments notifications.
I wonder if fedora could have such website too, to see what users need.
Does it have to include user only ? We could also build something for maintainers, packagers, people involved in the translation... That could be a subpart of the main part ok...
But I like the idea :)
Doesn't this cover it:? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugsAndFeatureRequests
P.Yves
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Jon Ciesla pisze:
Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
hi,
I just noticed launch of next brainstorming website. this time, ubuntu one [1] .
first was opensuse [2] , but they had no voting system and no comments notifications.
I wonder if fedora could have such website too, to see what users need.
Does it have to include user only ? We could also build something for maintainers, packagers, people involved in the translation... That could be a subpart of the main part ok...
But I like the idea :)
Doesn't this cover it:? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugsAndFeatureRequests
No. This requires permissions for wiki editing, while would only requires registration for submitting IDEA, not a feature.
Then would people comment, vote and Fedora would choose features to include.
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:29:33 +0100 "Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek" jakub.rusinek@gmail.com wrote:
Then would people comment, vote and Fedora would choose features to include.
Unless somebody is signing up to do the work, votes on a feature are meaningless.
Jesse Keating pisze:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:29:33 +0100 "Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek"jakub.rusinek@gmail.com wrote:
Then would people comment, vote and Fedora would choose features to include.
Unless somebody is signing up to do the work, votes on a feature are meaningless.
But it just tells you. what is most requested feature.
Hi.
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:38:42 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
Unless somebody is signing up to do the work, votes on a feature are meaningless.
But it just tells you. what is most requested feature.
I doubt that that you'll get much information that we do not have already, because everyone wants MP3, DVD and Flash (and a pony).
Ralf Ertzinger pisze:
Hi.
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:38:42 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
Unless somebody is signing up to do the work, votes on a feature are meaningless.
But it just tells you. what is most requested feature.
I doubt that that you'll get much information that we do not have already, because everyone wants MP3, DVD and Flash (and a pony).
As I said, little exception handling and we get rid of them (; .
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:29:33 +0100 "Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek" jakub.rusinek@gmail.com wrote:
Then would people comment, vote and Fedora would choose features to include.
Unless somebody is signing up to do the work, votes on a feature are meaningless.
Perhaps when a feature/behavior is seen to be widely requested, someone would sign up _as_a_result_. Not always, of course... and there could be a lot of noise. but I like the idea from a responsiveness point of view.
(look at the flip side, developers rarely sign up for features which were never requested...)
-Eric
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 09:40 -0600, Eric Sandeen wrote:
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:29:33 +0100 "Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek" jakub.rusinek@gmail.com wrote:
Then would people comment, vote and Fedora would choose features to include.
Unless somebody is signing up to do the work, votes on a feature are meaningless.
Perhaps when a feature/behavior is seen to be widely requested, someone would sign up _as_a_result_. Not always, of course... and there could be a lot of noise. but I like the idea from a responsiveness point of view.
(look at the flip side, developers rarely sign up for features which were never requested...)
Except that 20 pages of 'mp3 support and dvd support' would get old. :)
-sv
seth vidal wrote:
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 09:40 -0600, Eric Sandeen wrote:
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:29:33 +0100 "Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek" jakub.rusinek@gmail.com wrote:
Then would people comment, vote and Fedora would choose features to include.
Unless somebody is signing up to do the work, votes on a feature are meaningless.
Perhaps when a feature/behavior is seen to be widely requested, someone would sign up _as_a_result_. Not always, of course... and there could be a lot of noise. but I like the idea from a responsiveness point of view.
(look at the flip side, developers rarely sign up for features which were never requested...)
Except that 20 pages of 'mp3 support and dvd support' would get old. :)
That's the "could be a lot of noise" part, above :)
I wouldn't let that get in the way of actual good ideas from users, though.
-Eric
seth vidal pisze:
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 09:40 -0600, Eric Sandeen wrote:
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:29:33 +0100 "Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek"jakub.rusinek@gmail.com wrote:
Then would people comment, vote and Fedora would choose features to include.
Unless somebody is signing up to do the work, votes on a feature are meaningless.
Perhaps when a feature/behavior is seen to be widely requested, someone would sign up _as_a_result_. Not always, of course... and there could be a lot of noise. but I like the idea from a responsiveness point of view.
(look at the flip side, developers rarely sign up for features which were never requested...)
Except that 20 pages of 'mp3 support and dvd support' would get old. :)
-sv
Then little exception handling backend should be written to notify user, if content contains "mp3"/etc, that this cannot be supported officialy.
Jon Ciesla wrote:
Doesn't this cover it:? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugsAndFeatureRequests
Not really, For example we have been discussing at the Fosdem with spot on a way to get an idea of how often is package download, which would be nice for the maintainer. We got an answer from spot that it might be feasible in a near futur (so it is not the point there)
But would you report such ideas in the bz ??
Regards,
Pierre
Jon Ciesla wrote:
Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
hi,
I just noticed launch of next brainstorming website. this time, ubuntu one [1] .
first was opensuse [2] , but they had no voting system and no comments notifications.
I wonder if fedora could have such website too, to see what users need.
Does it have to include user only ? We could also build something for maintainers, packagers, people involved in the translation... That could be a subpart of the main part ok...
But I like the idea :)
Doesn't this cover it:? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugsAndFeatureRequests
In a "wow, that doesn't even come close from a PR (public relations) point of view" perhaps. brainstorm.ubuntu.com vs. idea.opensuse.org vs.... http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugsAndFeatureRequests?
It just doesn't have the same ring as http://mindmeld.fedoraproject.org or whatnot. :)
-Eric
Jon Ciesla wrote:
Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
hi,
I just noticed launch of next brainstorming website. this time, ubuntu one [1] .
first was opensuse [2] , but they had no voting system and no comments notifications.
I wonder if fedora could have such website too, to see what users need.
Does it have to include user only ? We could also build something for maintainers, packagers, people involved in the translation... That could be a subpart of the main part ok...
But I like the idea :)
Doesn't this cover it:? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugsAndFeatureRequests
In a "wow, that doesn't even come close from a PR (public relations) point of view" perhaps. brainstorm.ubuntu.com vs. idea.opensuse.org vs.... http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugsAndFeatureRequests?
It just doesn't have the same ring as http://mindmeld.fedoraproject.org or whatnot. :)
Ooh, I like that. You could go two ways there. "My mind to your mind, my thoughts to your thoughts", or for bugzilla, "Each of us hides a secret pain". . .
(ducks)
-Eric
pingou pisze:
Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
hi,
I just noticed launch of next brainstorming website. this time, ubuntu one [1] .
first was opensuse [2] , but they had no voting system and no comments notifications.
I wonder if fedora could have such website too, to see what users need.
Does it have to include user only ? We could also build something for maintainers, packagers, people involved in the translation... That could be a subpart of the main part ok...
But I like the idea :)
P.Yves
Registering in there could be registration in Fedora accounting system, but with no permissions.
Then users can only enable their permissions for CVS, Koji, Bodhi and so others.
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 04:15:59PM +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
hi,
I just noticed launch of next brainstorming website. this time, ubuntu one [1] .
first was opensuse [2] , but they had no voting system and no comments notifications.
I wonder if fedora could have such website too, to see what users need.
1| http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ 2| http://idea.opensuse.org/
Are either of those open source ?
luke
Luke Macken pisze:
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 04:15:59PM +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
hi,
I just noticed launch of next brainstorming website. this time, ubuntu one [1] .
first was opensuse [2] , but they had no voting system and no comments notifications.
I wonder if fedora could have such website too, to see what users need.
1| http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ 2| http://idea.opensuse.org/
Are either of those open source ?
luke
You mean engines of that websites or products that features are proposed to?
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 06:13:21PM +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
Luke Macken pisze:
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 04:15:59PM +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
hi,
I just noticed launch of next brainstorming website. this time, ubuntu one [1] .
first was opensuse [2] , but they had no voting system and no comments notifications.
I wonder if fedora could have such website too, to see what users need.
1| http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ 2| http://idea.opensuse.org/
Are either of those open source ?
luke
You mean engines of that websites or products that features are proposed to?
The websites.
luke
Are either of those open source ? The websites.
You can be sure - not.
Ubuntu use Drupal - a very good opensource CMS - for a lot of their web stuff. Had a quick look and the brainstormsite is based on it too. they seem to have a couple of custom modules (qawebsite/qapoll) which they mar or may not have released back to the community, but that should be no problem to replicate using available modules (voterapi, drigg etc etc)
(Totally offtopic, but Maybe Fedora should evaluate Drupal as an option on their possible migration routes from MoinMoin - a topic that came up a month or two back.)
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Naheem Zaffar naheemzaffar@gmail.com wrote:
Ubuntu use Drupal - a very good opensource CMS - for a lot of their web stuff. Had a quick look and the brainstormsite is based on it too. they seem to have a couple of custom modules (qawebsite/qapoll) which they mar or may not have released back to the community, but that should be no problem to replicate using available modules (voterapi, drigg etc etc)
(Totally offtopic, but Maybe Fedora should evaluate Drupal as an option on their possible migration routes from MoinMoin - a topic that came up a month or two back.)
Check the wiki, I'm, sure this has already been evaluated
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 9:15 AM, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek jakub.rusinek@gmail.com wrote:
hi,
I just noticed launch of next brainstorming website. this time, ubuntu one [1] .
first was opensuse [2] , but they had no voting system and no comments notifications.
I wonder if fedora could have such website too, to see what users need.
1| http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ 2| http://idea.opensuse.org/
At some point distros need to collaborate a bit more. None of the ideas I saw there were distro specific. Why have a distro specific website?
At some point distros need to collaborate a bit more. None of the ideas I saw there were distro specific. Why have a distro specific website?
Ubuntu and openSUSE are not interested in collaboration. They think they can fix everything locally, not upstream.
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 18:57 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
At some point distros need to collaborate a bit more. None of the ideas I saw there were distro specific. Why have a distro specific website?
Ubuntu and openSUSE are not interested in collaboration. They think they can fix everything locally, not upstream.
Don't make assumptions like that. I've spent a fair amount of time talking with Joe "Zonker" Brockmeier about how Fedora can collaborate with openSUSE, and he is very interested in collaboration. I've also had some conversations with Canonical employees (since they're really the only ones who can influence Ubuntu), and they also seem open to collaboration possibilities.
~spot
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 13:10 -0500, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
Don't make assumptions like that. I've spent a fair amount of time talking with Joe "Zonker" Brockmeier about how Fedora can collaborate with openSUSE, and he is very interested in collaboration. I've also had some conversations with Canonical employees (since they're really the only ones who can influence Ubuntu), and they also seem open to collaboration possibilities.
Perhaps we should push for a cross-distro submission mechanism/website instead then.
2008/2/28 Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams ivazqueznet@gmail.com:
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 13:10 -0500, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
Don't make assumptions like that. I've spent a fair amount of time talking with Joe "Zonker" Brockmeier about how Fedora can collaborate with openSUSE, and he is very interested in collaboration. I've also had some conversations with Canonical employees (since they're really the only ones who can influence Ubuntu), and they also seem open to collaboration possibilities.
Perhaps we should push for a cross-distro submission mechanism/website instead then.
I am willing to help in what ever way that I am capable. I feel this lack of collaboration is getting to be destructive now -- a lot of it is for no technical reason.
On 2008-02-28, 18:17 GMT, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
Perhaps we should push for a cross-distro submission mechanism/website instead then.
Well, I think, that's called http://bugzilla.gnome.org, right?
Matěj
Matej Cepl pisze:
On 2008-02-28, 18:17 GMT, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
Perhaps we should push for a cross-distro submission mechanism/website instead then.
Well, I think, that's called http://bugzilla.gnome.org, right?
Matěj
You don't understand the idea. Bug trackers are not nice for n00bs.
On 2008-02-29, 14:48 GMT, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
You don't understand the idea. Bug trackers are not nice for n00bs.
Of course I don’t understand anything, but for the last fifteen years or so that I am around, bugzillas and email lists were enough to get Linux where it is now, which is not that bad IMHO. Then from time to time somebody has a wonderful idea, that the only sensible mean of communication is that people have to register to yet another site, and write to TEXTAREA there. He puts such site together with some CMS/wiki, couple of hundred already known items are put there. That’s easy.
Then nobody bothers to communicate with developers (because they have better things to do than browse around the web to find whether somebody had not a yet another great idea what they should do) and file all those bugs into bugzillas, and maintain the website to be up-to-date (it’s a lot of work to emulate bugzilla with tools which were provided for that — I know it, because that’s my job to do it) and there is yet another bitrotten website which nobody cares about.
Sorry, I am afraid that people who cannot be bothered to subscribe to the list, or to subscribe to bugzilla, has anything interesting to contribute to the discussion.
And besides, http://slashdot.org/features/98/10/13/1423253.shtml
Best,
Matěj
Matej Cepl mcepl@redhat.com wrote:
On 2008-02-29, 14:48 GMT, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
You don't understand the idea. Bug trackers are not nice for n00bs.
...
Sorry, I am afraid that people who cannot be bothered to subscribe to the list, or to subscribe to bugzilla, has anything interesting to contribute to the discussion.
And besides, http://slashdot.org/features/98/10/13/1423253.shtml
Archived, and no comments (on /.!). Typical...
Don't make assumptions like that. I've spent a fair amount of time talking with Joe "Zonker" Brockmeier about how Fedora can collaborate with openSUSE, and he is very interested in collaboration. I've also had some conversations with Canonical employees (since they're really the only ones who can influence Ubuntu), and they also seem open to collaboration possibilities.
Doesn't matter if employees are interested or not. Community is not interested.
Ubuntu maked GNOME very nice only for themselves, openSUSE too.
They didn't submitted too many code and patches upstrean,
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 06:57:27PM +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
At some point distros need to collaborate a bit more. None of the
+1
Ubuntu and openSUSE are not interested in collaboration. They think they can fix everything locally, not upstream.
I have a completely different experience with Debian/Ubuntu, Novell and Gentoo maintainers.
Karel
Now why would fedora want a 'brainstorm' site? We have Ubuntu and openSUSE that did it and i think that's enough. I think it's better for fedora to look at those lists and look at what issues are there and base the features for the next fedora on those lists. We don't need another list because nearly all issues that i saw (on brainstorm) are things that need to get fixed upstream anyway so including a fix for it in Fedora would just be extra work. Better help upstream to include it and your done for all distributions that use it.
I like the idea of a brainstorm site for fedora and would have gladly helped with it IF ubuntu and openSUSE didn't had one. now it just seems like repeating the issues on all dist lists.
The issues that i personally would like to see implemented would be:
XrandR GUI http://bryceharrington.org/drupal/display-config-1 (absolute must have!!) and the ability to see image previews in a file dialog.
Those are just the 2 that i noticed at first sight and will really be helpfull.
And one that i didn't noticed yet. Beagle got implanted in Fedora 5 and got killed in the Fedora 6 (or 7?) development cycle and was a mistake in the first place to include. It was just to new and untested. Now (few years later) it might be time to include a indexer like that again. Not beagle but Tracker: http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/
It has: - the looks - nautilus intergration - nice understandable interface - cool features - low memory footprint - supports enough data sources
It looks like the perfect indexer to me. So why not give that one a thought? Would probably to late to include it for F9 the official way but just running yum -y install tracker will do fine as well ^_^
Mark wrote:
Now why would fedora want a 'brainstorm' site? We have Ubuntu and openSUSE that did it and i think that's enough. I think it's better for fedora to look at those lists and look at what issues are there and base the features for the next fedora on those lists. We don't need another list because nearly all issues that i saw (on brainstorm) are things that need to get fixed upstream anyway so including a fix for it in Fedora would just be extra work. Better help upstream to include it and your done for all distributions that use it.
I actually think the best way to approach this with the minimum work and the best reach to the user(s) and without so much work is to create a preform email form that the user fill in their idea and gets sent to let's say fedora-rfe mailing lists that's sends random auto reply back on the form of thank you for the idea etc.. and the community parses the mailing list and filters out those who make sense and forward them to the right places and deletes those who don't.. Users don't have to register or do any work other than double click a icon and fill in the form and press send as they do with email every day.and if it bothers them they can either delete the icon or remove it from the bar.. and developers wont get bother with anything that is not interesting.. Every idea thats gets accepted will be posted on fedora project page and thanks given to the person that came up with the idea ( thanks goes to Mary from Atlanta her idea has been accepting and is being developed and incorporated into the next release of fedora etc..) and those who worked on making it happen...
The whole brainstorm web idea is flawed from my perspective, letting users register to just send their idea of the moment, the amount of work to design, code and run/manage such a website, when heck of hell we even could let the spam filter, filter out whatever we want text string including "mp3 support" etc..
Don't make things complicated for the end user if they don't have to be....
Best regards Johann B.
Mark wrote:
Now why would fedora want a 'brainstorm' site? We have Ubuntu and openSUSE that did it and i think that's enough. I think it's better for fedora to look at those lists and look at what issues are there and base the features for the next fedora on those lists. We don't need another list because nearly all issues that i saw (on brainstorm) are things that need to get fixed upstream anyway so including a fix for it in Fedora would just be extra work. Better help upstream to include it and your done for all distributions that use it.
I like the idea of a brainstorm site for fedora and would have gladly helped with it IF ubuntu and openSUSE didn't had one. now it just seems like repeating the issues on all dist lists.
The issues that i personally would like to see implemented would be:
XrandR GUI http://bryceharrington.org/drupal/display-config-1 (absolute must have!!) and the ability to see image previews in a file dialog.
Those are just the 2 that i noticed at first sight and will really be helpfull.
And one that i didn't noticed yet. Beagle got implanted in Fedora 5 and got killed in the Fedora 6 (or 7?) development cycle and was a mistake in the first place to include. It was just to new and untested. Now (few years later) it might be time to include a indexer like that again. Not beagle but Tracker: http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/
It has:
- the looks
- nautilus intergration
- nice understandable interface
- cool features
- low memory footprint
- supports enough data sources
It looks like the perfect indexer to me. So why not give that one a thought? Would probably to late to include it for F9 the official way but just running yum -y install tracker will do fine as well ^_^
Sorry, but I think that none indexer should be installed be default. Or simply should not be enabled by default [only installed].
That's because of system resources consumption.
Mark wrote:
And one that i didn't noticed yet. Beagle got implanted in Fedora 5 and got killed in the Fedora 6 (or 7?) development cycle and was a mistake in the first place to include. It was just to new and untested. Now (few years later) it might be time to include a indexer like that again. Not beagle but Tracker: http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/
Tracker is installed by default in some spins.
On 2008-03-04, 20:14 GMT, Mark wrote:
XrandR GUI http://bryceharrington.org/drupal/display-config-1 (absolute must have!!)
You certainly found out that this "Ubuntu development" is actually porting of the code written (and being prepared for future Fedoras) by our own Soren Sandmann, right?
Matěj
2008/3/6, Matej Cepl mcepl@redhat.com:
On 2008-03-04, 20:14 GMT, Mark wrote:
XrandR GUI http://bryceharrington.org/drupal/display-config-1 (absolute must have!!)
You certainly found out that this "Ubuntu development" is actually porting of the code written (and being prepared for future Fedoras) by our own Soren Sandmann, right?
Matěj
^_^ i saw the name somewhere in relation to that tool but didn't realized it. Is there a link somewhere of what Sorem made? And is that feature gonna be available in Fedora 9?
2008/3/5, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro:
Tracker is installed by default in some spins.
Thanx for telling me that but i don't intend to install a spin (perhaps try one once). And including it in fedora (optional and perhaps choosing to turn it on/off during installation or firstboot) would be nice.
On Thursday 06 March 2008 23:40:34 Mark wrote:
2008/3/5, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro:
Tracker is installed by default in some spins.
Thanx for telling me that but i don't intend to install a spin (perhaps try one once). And including it in fedora (optional and perhaps choosing to turn it on/off during installation or firstboot) would be nice.
All the packages available in the spins are already in Fedora, that is a "sine qua non" condition for the spins...
$ yum list tracker Available Packages tracker.i386 0.6.6-1.fc9 development
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 16:15 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
hi,
I just noticed launch of next brainstorming website. this time, ubuntu one [1] .
first was opensuse [2] , but they had no voting system and no comments notifications.
I wonder if fedora could have such website too, to see what users need.
Hah hah. The top two are currently "Ubuntu's bootloader should look like Fedora's" and "NetworkManager everywhere", something that's already on the Fedora to-do list (And nearing completion?). Among a lot of other things that have been discussed to death on fedora-devel and are already on various developer's to-do lists. Speed up boot time, power management, filesystem mount UI, hardware databases(smolt?), forced fsck (already fixed in Fedora some time ago), menu mess, backups, fix suspend/hibernate (ongoing? The supply of shiny, new and broken hardware shows no signs of slowing...), LiveUSB (done!), prefetch, delta updates (apparently waiting on Fedora infrastructure to implement their end), shutdown speed...
We've seen it all, on this very list, already.
This one looks a bit more focused on developers actually getting things done. And that seems rather analogous to our already existing "feature" process...
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 22:41 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
We've seen it all, on this very list, already.
Who said Ubuntu is modern :> ?
As we have most of that features or were GOING to have them, we would have different ideas on such list.
The truth is that most of the features on those sites are: - ongoing features/goals for Fedora and upstream - goals specific to one application or sub-system
For the former, there's no real point in having those spelt out, as we already they're problems, and the best you could get is a change of focus.
For the latter, I'd be happy to get any feature request/bug filed against my components (summarily Bluetooth UIs for GNOME, and multimedia GNOME stuff) so that I can bring them to the attention of upstream, or fix them as part of a feature for a specific release.
In the worst case, I'll point people to the upstream bug report if it's not deemed important enough, but that's at least a starting point.
Bastien Nocera wrote:
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 22:41 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
We've seen it all, on this very list, already.
Who said Ubuntu is modern :> ?
As we have most of that features or were GOING to have them, we would have different ideas on such list.
The truth is that most of the features on those sites are:
- ongoing features/goals for Fedora and upstream
- goals specific to one application or sub-system
Nevertheless, I think the idea of putting this information in a slightly more community accessible format would be *a good thing*. Most fedora users (F7-F8 types) are not keeping track of ongoing development of F9 so they are not that aware of the feature list upcoming... meaning they lack excitement about it (and consequently most are not chatting up their buddies about how cool it is).
The majority of non-fedora users I chat with have no idea of the advancements occurring over here, many of which are effecting their fav distros more than they know due to the focus of moving improvement effort upstream!
The mailing list archives are not user accessible information sources like a 'vote features up or down' site. The wiki itself is somewhat stale in that regard too, at least much more so than an open comment and vote system. I guess I'm not doing what I could to help there since I'm not even in the wiki edit group and I've been rawhiding since rh7.3. Are most F8 users going to get wiki edit access to post back 'hey I like this new f9 feature its worth promoting to my friends'?
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 17:15 -0800, Andrew Farris wrote:
Nevertheless, I think the idea of putting this information in a slightly more community accessible format would be *a good thing*. Most fedora users (F7-F8 types) are not keeping track of ongoing development of F9 so they are not that aware of the feature list upcoming... meaning they lack excitement about it (and consequently most are not chatting up their buddies about how cool it is).
The majority of non-fedora users I chat with have no idea of the advancements occurring over here, many of which are effecting their fav distros more than they know due to the focus of moving improvement effort upstream!
Which is exactly what the Feature Process is supposed to help fix. We're still refining it. F9 is really the first release to give the Feature process a chance to gain momentum. NOW is the time to go out and get your friends hyped up about about the F9 release. NOW is the time for the Marketing/Ambassador types to take the information us Developer types have given on FeatureList and start building up a Fedora hype machine:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9/FeatureList
You're on a developer list, here. Speaking for myself, I'm not interested in evangelizing Fedora. I don't think it's optimal use of my skills. I'm a Software Engineer. I believe my time is best spent making Fedora and Open Source in general, better. A better system will sell itself.
The mailing list archives are not user accessible information sources like a 'vote features up or down' site. The wiki itself is somewhat stale in that regard too, at least much more so than an open comment and vote system. I guess I'm not doing what I could to help there since I'm not even in the wiki edit group and I've been rawhiding since rh7.3. Are most F8 users going to get wiki edit access to post back 'hey I like this new f9 feature its worth promoting to my friends'?
I think you're putting yourself into fedora-marketing/ambassador territory.
Keep in mind, who's the audience of the wiki page? Of the Wiki in general, even? Is it really for the public? Or is it "internal communication" intended to be summarized elsewhere for public consumption?
2008/2/29 Callum Lerwick seg@haxxed.com:
You're on a developer list, here. Speaking for myself, I'm not interested in evangelizing Fedora. I don't think it's optimal use of my skills. I'm a Software Engineer. I believe my time is best spent making Fedora and Open Source in general, better. A better system will sell itself.
In general I agree with you.Though it helps to have someone wear a sexy black turtleneck and look gorgeous on camera while staying on message when they do the sales pitch for technology that sells itself. Luckily we have Paul now.
As a Board member I do not want the people who are extremely good at creating and moving the bits, to get bogged down with evangelizism, unless they want to. But I do want you more technical minded people to continue to be open to the sort of interviews like Jon is doing, where he tries to captures the enthusiasm and vision for what you are working on and re-broadcast it for other people to see. It's very valuable to be able to remind people that each and every one of the developers who are grinding out the bits, are real people. And for the most part, real people who have a passionate desire to work together to make everyone's life better.
With that in mind, I'm really not sure what these idea trackers really do for an open..collaboration. They might do wonders for a corporate entity like Dell. Hell, Red Hat might even run one of these things for the Enterprise customers and derive value from it. But those are business entities, with a profit motive. Popularity for them translates into future income through some sort of math.
But I don't think it makes any sense at all for someone like Gnome or KDE or even Fedora to run this sort of 'service.' What is popular is not always what is right. And for a collaborative process to work people need to have that concept in the back of their minds. Just a big list of "me toos" on a set of ill-posed features doesn't add anything. I understand that users want to feel involved in the process. But this sort of involvement isn't constructive. We need to find a way to be the meeting place between users and developers that focuses on long term vision and maintainability. A feature farm of ideas based on popularity isn't it.
But I will say that watching Canonical put up an idea tracker in the guise of a Ubuntu community innovation makes perfect sense to me. Because in my mind ultimately Canonical needs Ubuntu to diverge from upstream in order for Canonical's business model to work out. I'm not sure its in Canonical's best interest as a business to be a strong conduit for upstream development... to be the meeting place between the upstream's long-term vision and user's current desires.
But I am very sure, that Fedora's interests are best served by working directly with upstream projects on as much as possible. We are not going to become a collection of feature de jours... simply because we have the technical ability in our contributor base to do it that way. It's not the right thing to do. The right thing to do is to continue to work as much as possible within upstream projects so that features as they are developed benefit as many users as possible with the least amount of effort. Popularity has to be weighted against sustainability. Its the difference between being focused on next week's hype versus being focused on long term impact.
-jef
Callum Lerwick wrote:
I'm a Software Engineer. I believe my time is best spent making Fedora and Open Source in general, better. A better system will sell itself.
Hmmm, then why are all those boxes running windows?
I think you're putting yourself into fedora-marketing/ambassador territory.
Keep in mind, who's the audience of the wiki page? Of the Wiki in general, even? Is it really for the public? Or is it "internal communication" intended to be summarized elsewhere for public consumption?
A better question would be whether it is to promote what you happen to have, or to learn what users would like to have. There are a lot of things that could be better in a distribution simply by combining features that are already available in upstream packages. For example, fedora ships an LDAP server and has the capability of using one for user authentication, but no one does - and the value of doing it isn't obvious until you install your second box. Why couldn't these be shipped to work together and be the default way to manage users even on a single box?
On Fri, 2008-02-29 at 13:03 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
Callum Lerwick wrote:
I'm a Software Engineer. I believe my time is best spent making Fedora and Open Source in general, better. A better system will sell itself.
Hmmm, then why are all those boxes running windows?
Is this a troll? Yeah yeah, its idealistic engineer thinking. I considered saying "A better product will... well, it's easier to sell." but that wouldn't have sounded as epic. :)
A better question would be whether it is to promote what you happen to have, or to learn what users would like to have. There are a lot of things that could be better in a distribution simply by combining features that are already available in upstream packages. For example, fedora ships an LDAP server and has the capability of using one for user authentication, but no one does - and the value of doing it isn't obvious until you install your second box. Why couldn't these be shipped to work together and be the default way to manage users even on a single box?
Users want ponies, and there's no lack of them coming on fedora-devel to tell us so. My point here is I see no lack of communication between Fedora developers and users. There's this and other mailing lists, IRC, and forums such as fedoraforum.org, all of which are frequented by at least some developers and/or ambassadors. Ambassadors are in direct contact with user communities. Many developers are in direct contact with users. They have day jobs as IT people at universities, or research institutions... Red Hat of course has its customers. And developers are users too.
I see no problem that needs to be fixed. (Yes, more engineer thinking.) Why give our users a hollow, meaningless vote? We'd be lying to them. What are we, a United States presidential election? :)
Callum Lerwick wrote:
On Fri, 2008-02-29 at 13:03 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
Callum Lerwick wrote:
I'm a Software Engineer. I believe my time is best spent making Fedora and Open Source in general, better. A better system will sell itself.
Hmmm, then why are all those boxes running windows?
Is this a troll? Yeah yeah, its idealistic engineer thinking. I considered saying "A better product will... well, it's easier to sell." but that wouldn't have sounded as epic. :)
A better question would be whether it is to promote what you happen to have, or to learn what users would like to have. There are a lot of things that could be better in a distribution simply by combining features that are already available in upstream packages. For example, fedora ships an LDAP server and has the capability of using one for user authentication, but no one does - and the value of doing it isn't obvious until you install your second box. Why couldn't these be shipped to work together and be the default way to manage users even on a single box?
Users want ponies, and there's no lack of them coming on fedora-devel to tell us so. My point here is I see no lack of communication between Fedora developers and users. There's this and other mailing lists, IRC, and forums such as fedoraforum.org, all of which are frequented by at least some developers and/or ambassadors. Ambassadors are in direct contact with user communities. Many developers are in direct contact with users. They have day jobs as IT people at universities, or research institutions... Red Hat of course has its customers. And developers are users too.
I see no problem that needs to be fixed. (Yes, more engineer thinking.) Why give our users a hollow, meaningless vote? We'd be lying to them. What are we, a United States presidential election? :)
I don't see anyone approaching this from a marketing perspective.
Yes, there are channels to get to developers, and yes they are used more or less effectively, but look at the experience: You want something done, so you go to fedora, and you are linked to a shiny blue website. It intros with a long string of "motherhood and apple pie" speak about collaboration and working together to make fedora better for all of us. Then you post your idea in a nice little template, and collect your thank you for making the world a better place as you log out.
Making the users feel special is a good objective too, in addition to listening to what they want. Also, making this sharing very public turns the collaboration itself into a kind of advertisement. Others who stumble upon the site get to say "hey, look how collaborative Fedora is. I should check this out."
Even if little to no new ideas are reaped from the process, it still makes people happy.
--CJD
On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Casey Dahlin cjdahlin@ncsu.edu wrote:
Yes, there are channels to get to developers, and yes they are used more or less effectively, but look at the experience: You want something done, so you go to fedora, and you are linked to a shiny blue website. It intros with a long string of "motherhood and apple pie" speak about collaboration and working together to make fedora better for all of us. Then you post your idea in a nice little template, and collect your thank you for making the world a better place as you log out.
Making the users feel special is a good objective too, in addition to listening to what they want. Also, making this sharing very public turns the collaboration itself into a kind of advertisement. Others who stumble upon the site get to say "hey, look how collaborative Fedora is. I should check this out."
It only helps if we actually DO something with it. A collection of ideas that we are pretty sure are not going to be implemented is just asking for trouble..big trouble.
It's one thing to be honest about a bar of participation and working to lower that bar. it's far far worse to build a process whose entire goal is to give people the false sense that they are contributing when they are not. The bright and shiny web entry tool you are describing... is a lie. You can't just drive by and leave an idea and call it contribution. We can't compile a list of ideas when we KNOW that they will bitrot because there are no volunteer developers just sitting around waiting for something to do. I'd LOVE to have idle engineering resources at my disposal. Even as a Board member, if I can't generate the manpower necessary to get what I want done..done... it's not going to get done. If you encourage people to make an effort, and you don't followup on that effort, you quickly end up being called unresponsive because you asked for ideas and didn't do jack with them once you got them.
There is a PR angle that must be addressed, but the marketting side has to follow the engineering and development policies... not the other way around... or shit just isn't going get done. You do it like you want it and you are generating human interest that we can't followup on.
You want to make something bright and shiny? Work with Greg on his idea of compiling a list of vetted week-long hacks, with the goal of giving new people bite-sized work to get them started as contributors. Its a totally different concept than the popularity-storm idea.
-jef
Even if little to no new ideas are reaped from the process, it still makes people happy.
--CJD
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Callum Lerwick wrote:
Users want ponies, and there's no lack of them coming on fedora-devel to tell us so.
But an engineer knows that a pony isn't very practical. Users also want practical things.
I see no problem that needs to be fixed. (Yes, more engineer thinking.)
I think that means there are parts of the system that you aren't using... Hence the value of listening to people that try.
Why give our users a hollow, meaningless vote? We'd be lying to them. What are we, a United States presidential election? :)
No, that takes court intervention to circumvent the will of the users.
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 22:41 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
We've seen it all, on this very list, already.
Who said Ubuntu is modern :> ?
As we have most of that features or were GOING to have them, we would have different ideas on such list.
Went through some of the interesting ones:
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/138/ Filed as https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=435402
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/95/ See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBluetooth
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/2/ See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureFingerprint
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/84/ Easy to add, file a bug against gnome-settings-daemon if you're bothered
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/111/ Needs upstream approval/discussions
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/204/ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RandrSupport given the right support for the video card chipset
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/161/ This is ongoing. HAL support in X should make this easier for us in Fedora 9.
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/82/ Not really an idea, but GPS integration is planned for GNOME (see the geoclue project), and hardware support for the Bluetooth ones as above
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/179/ Already planned in GNOME Scan, not sure about the status
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/208/ That's already something people want to work on in GNOME, there's a lot of discussion on how this should integrate with the online desktop, etc. See the GNOME bugzilla (about-me lives in the control-center)
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/168/ Same reason ndiswrapper isn't in Fedora, pretty much, although it lives in user-space.
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/174/ The drivers seem to be done by linuxtv people, so it's only a matter of time (from our POV) before they show up in the upstream kernel
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/185/ That was already rejected by upstream
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/76/ Already in development: http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2008/02/17/new-column-wise-nautilus-view-use...
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/241/ Google Calendar integration got worked on for last year's SoC for GNOME I'm pretty sure CalDav and other such protocols are being worked on upstream
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/1/ Hard one because all the solutions seem to have been half-finished before. Didn't we have this as a Fedora SoC as well?
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/80/ We don't have as much of a problem as we have sub-menus for those, but it's on-going work upstream and for us.
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28/ Yes please. OpenSync sucks, and I'm tip-toeing Conduit/gnome-phone-manager integration for F10, for a small part of that puzzle.
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/240/ Applications can provide this if they want/need it, file bugs against specific applications
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/120/ Agreed it's a good idea, but this btnx is far from being the right solution. See also: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140279 Should be easier to fix with the HAL support in the X server
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/129/ http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=519438
- http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/132/ Bugs should be filed against applications that should have joypad support but don't (gnome-games!) See also http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=519439
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Bastien Nocera bnocera@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 22:41 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
We've seen it all, on this very list, already.
Who said Ubuntu is modern :> ?
As we have most of that features or were GOING to have them, we would have different ideas on such list.
Went through some of the interesting ones:
Filed as https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=435402
See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBluetooth
See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureFingerprint
Easy to add, file a bug against gnome-settings-daemon if you're bothered
Needs upstream approval/discussions
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RandrSupport given the right support for the video card chipset
This is ongoing. HAL support in X should make this easier for us in Fedora 9.
Not really an idea, but GPS integration is planned for GNOME (see the geoclue project), and hardware support for the Bluetooth ones as above
Already planned in GNOME Scan, not sure about the status
That's already something people want to work on in GNOME, there's a lot of discussion on how this should integrate with the online desktop, etc. See the GNOME bugzilla (about-me lives in the control-center)
Same reason ndiswrapper isn't in Fedora, pretty much, although it lives in user-space.
The drivers seem to be done by linuxtv people, so it's only a matter of time (from our POV) before they show up in the upstream kernel
That was already rejected by upstream
Already in development: http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2008/02/17/new-column-wise-nautilus-view-use...
Google Calendar integration got worked on for last year's SoC for GNOME I'm pretty sure CalDav and other such protocols are being worked on upstream
Hard one because all the solutions seem to have been half-finished before. Didn't we have this as a Fedora SoC as well?
We don't have as much of a problem as we have sub-menus for those, but it's on-going work upstream and for us.
Yes please. OpenSync sucks, and I'm tip-toeing Conduit/gnome-phone-manager integration for F10, for a small part of that puzzle.
Applications can provide this if they want/need it, file bugs against specific applications
Agreed it's a good idea, but this btnx is far from being the right solution. See also: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140279 Should be easier to fix with the HAL support in the X server
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=519438
Bugs should be filed against applications that should have joypad support but don't (gnome-games!) See also http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=519439
All the more reason to consolidate the effort.
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 21:47 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Bastien Nocera bnocera@redhat.com wrote:
<snip>
Went through some of the interesting ones:
<snip>
All the more reason to consolidate the effort.
See how all the bugs went upstream, instead of a home-made feature tracker? They're more than welcome to come and fix those, but I have the strange feeling they'll just go the easy route, and patch it up with hacks, as they did in previous releases.
Compare and contrast: http://people.freedesktop.org/~hughsient/quirk/quirk-keymap-index.html http://packages.ubuntu.com/feisty/misc/hotkey-setup
Bad, bad Matthew.
I hope they do it right instead of going the easy route...
On Fri, 2008-02-29 at 03:43 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote:
That was already rejected by upstream
Couldn't this one be handled by an app that generates custom screensaver .desktop files from the system-wide ones?
On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 03:43:22AM +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote:
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 22:41 +0100, Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek wrote:
We've seen it all, on this very list, already.
Who said Ubuntu is modern :> ?
As we have most of that features or were GOING to have them, we would have different ideas on such list.
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/4/
CDMA and GSM modems are in NM 0.7.0 which is targeted for F9, and work is under way to make this even simpler through explicit information provided by the kernel for HAL's usage. See http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.usb.general/2024 and following.
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