While installing Fedora 16 Alpha, I ran into some problems that turned out to be caused by the installer formatting with a GPT rather than an MBR partition table.
I would like to understand the change and its implications, and I have unsuccessfully tried to track down more information. I haven't been able to find anything in the Fedora 16 Alpha Release Notes or the Grub2 feature page. The only definitive reference I've been able to find is the comment "x86 uses GPT disklabels by default on all machines, even non-EFI" on the Anaconda/Changes wiki page.
There seem to be some complications associated with the change. For example, Windows can only support GPT on UEFI machines, so dual-booting appears to be unsupported (I could not find an option for MBR partition tables in the installer).
Where should I look for more information? Thanks.
-- Andrew McNabb http://www.mcnabbs.org/andrew/ PGP Fingerprint: 8A17 B57C 6879 1863 DE55 8012 AB4D 6098 8826 6868
On Thu, 2011-08-25 at 16:17 -0600, Andrew McNabb wrote:
While installing Fedora 16 Alpha, I ran into some problems that turned out to be caused by the installer formatting with a GPT rather than an MBR partition table.
I would like to understand the change and its implications, and I have unsuccessfully tried to track down more information. I haven't been able to find anything in the Fedora 16 Alpha Release Notes or the Grub2 feature page. The only definitive reference I've been able to find is the comment "x86 uses GPT disklabels by default on all machines, even non-EFI" on the Anaconda/Changes wiki page.
There seem to be some complications associated with the change. For example, Windows can only support GPT on UEFI machines, so dual-booting appears to be unsupported (I could not find an option for MBR partition tables in the installer).
Where should I look for more information? Thanks.
To boot to a GPT disk from BIOS (rather than EFI) you need a BIOS boot partition. If you use one of the automatic partitioning methods, rather than manual partitioning, F16's installer will create one for you. If you choose manual partitioning on a BIOS system and don't create a BIOS boot partition, anaconda will pop up a (somewhat cryptic) warning.
If you're installing alongside an existing copy of Windows I believe anaconda ought to leave the disk label alone (MSDOS) anyway, though I'm not sure we've tested that. It should only write a new one if you're blowing away any existing partitions on the disk, I think. (IMBW on this one).
On Thu, 2011-08-25 at 17:11 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2011-08-25 at 16:17 -0600, Andrew McNabb wrote:
While installing Fedora 16 Alpha, I ran into some problems that turned out to be caused by the installer formatting with a GPT rather than an MBR partition table.
I would like to understand the change and its implications, and I have unsuccessfully tried to track down more information. I haven't been able to find anything in the Fedora 16 Alpha Release Notes or the Grub2 feature page. The only definitive reference I've been able to find is the comment "x86 uses GPT disklabels by default on all machines, even non-EFI" on the Anaconda/Changes wiki page.
There seem to be some complications associated with the change. For example, Windows can only support GPT on UEFI machines, so dual-booting appears to be unsupported (I could not find an option for MBR partition tables in the installer).
Where should I look for more information? Thanks.
To boot to a GPT disk from BIOS (rather than EFI) you need a BIOS boot partition. If you use one of the automatic partitioning methods, rather than manual partitioning, F16's installer will create one for you. If you choose manual partitioning on a BIOS system and don't create a BIOS boot partition, anaconda will pop up a (somewhat cryptic) warning.
This is changing from a suggestion to a requirement, based on the fact that grub2 will not even try to install itself without the bios boot partition.
If you're installing alongside an existing copy of Windows I believe anaconda ought to leave the disk label alone (MSDOS) anyway, though I'm not sure we've tested that. It should only write a new one if you're blowing away any existing partitions on the disk, I think. (IMBW on this one).
This is correct.
It's also true that if you create an msdos/mbr partition table on your disk prior to installation and then choose any option except for "Use All Space" (or "clearpart --all" in kickstart) anaconda will not destroy your existing partition table.
-- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 07:17:58PM -0500, David Lehman wrote:
It's also true that if you create an msdos/mbr partition table on your disk prior to installation and then choose any option except for "Use All Space" (or "clearpart --all" in kickstart) anaconda will not destroy your existing partition table.
But if you first install Fedora to a clean disk, then it will never be possible to later install Windows, right?
-- Andrew McNabb http://www.mcnabbs.org/andrew/ PGP Fingerprint: 8A17 B57C 6879 1863 DE55 8012 AB4D 6098 8826 6868
On Thu, 2011-08-25 at 21:13 -0500, Andrew McNabb wrote:
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 07:17:58PM -0500, David Lehman wrote:
It's also true that if you create an msdos/mbr partition table on your disk prior to installation and then choose any option except for "Use All Space" (or "clearpart --all" in kickstart) anaconda will not destroy your existing partition table.
But if you first install Fedora to a clean disk, then it will never be possible to later install Windows, right?
One thing I didn't answer - intentionally, as I don't know the answer - is whether Windows will boot if you have a BIOS boot partition on a GPT-labelled drive. It may do.
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 08:12:21PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2011-08-25 at 21:13 -0500, Andrew McNabb wrote:
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 07:17:58PM -0500, David Lehman wrote:
It's also true that if you create an msdos/mbr partition table on your disk prior to installation and then choose any option except for "Use All Space" (or "clearpart --all" in kickstart) anaconda will not destroy your existing partition table.
But if you first install Fedora to a clean disk, then it will never be possible to later install Windows, right?
One thing I didn't answer - intentionally, as I don't know the answer - is whether Windows will boot if you have a BIOS boot partition on a GPT-labelled drive. It may do.
Windows and GPT FAQ:
Q. Can Windows 7, Windows Vista, and Windows Server 2008 read, write, and boot from GPT disks?
A. Yes, all versions can use GPT partitioned disks for data. Booting is only supported for 64-bit editions on UEFI-based systems.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463525.aspx
Karel
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 04:29:55PM +0200, Karel Zak wrote:
Windows and GPT FAQ:
Q. Can Windows 7, Windows Vista, and Windows Server 2008 read, write, and boot from GPT disks?
A. Yes, all versions can use GPT partitioned disks for data. Booting is only supported for 64-bit editions on UEFI-based systems.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463525.aspx
I don't know for sure, but this may be a case where progress is more important than compatibility. In any case, it would be comforting to have this issue documented in the Fedora 16 Release Notes.
-- Andrew McNabb http://www.mcnabbs.org/andrew/ PGP Fingerprint: 8A17 B57C 6879 1863 DE55 8012 AB4D 6098 8826 6868
On Friday, August 26, 2011, 3:35:52 PM, Andrew McNabb wrote:
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 04:29:55PM +0200, Karel Zak wrote:
Windows and GPT FAQ:
Q. Can Windows 7, Windows Vista, and Windows Server 2008 read, write, and boot from GPT disks?
A. Yes, all versions can use GPT partitioned disks for data. Booting is only supported for 64-bit editions on UEFI-based systems.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463525.aspx
I don't know for sure, but this may be a case where progress is more important than compatibility. In any case, it would be comforting to have this issue documented in the Fedora 16 Release Notes.
I disagree. This is a bogus argument, similar to those which have repeatedly stripped away Fedora's ability to support older hardware (especially video) in the past few releases. Hopefully Ajax's recent work on software 3D should restore that a bit so those of us with older but still useful systems can run Gnome 3's full Shell.
The magnitude of impact depends on whether the typical Linux user who also runs some variant of Windows is at those levels. In my experience personally and in a corporate environment, that would typically be 32-bit XP.
Those folks who pay the Danegeld to upgrade to the later Windows releases on a given system are less likely to also be Linux users.
On systems where 32-bit is XP is running, one by definition is running with a disk of 2 TB or less. Fedora installation must by default do the right thing. We need to agree on what that happens to be.
On a related topic, why in heaven's name is Fedora not including the simple grub setup commands that are familiar to Ubuntu users? Making folks remember a long form instead of providing a few helper scripts seems short-sighted at best, and arrogant/NIH at worst.
On Friday, August 26, 2011 04:58:22 PM Al Dunsmuir wrote:
On systems where 32-bit is XP is running, one by definition is running with a disk of 2 TB or less. Fedora installation must by default do the right thing. We need to agree on what that happens to be.
On systems with legacy operating systems installed Fedora does not touch the partition table at all. On all other systems GPT is the way to go I'd say...
On a related topic, why in heaven's name is Fedora not including the simple grub setup commands that are familiar to Ubuntu users? Making folks remember a long form instead of providing a few helper scripts seems short-sighted at best, and arrogant/NIH at worst.
Are those commands included in the upstream Grub 2 tarball? In this case you should file a bug to get them included in the Fedora package I think. If not, you have a perfect example why people should improve software by working upstream.
btw, I just installed F16 on an EFI machine and got Grub Legacy. Are there any major problems with Grub 2's EFI support?
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Lars Seipel lars.seipel@googlemail.com wrote:
btw, I just installed F16 on an EFI machine and got Grub Legacy. Are there any major problems with Grub 2's EFI support?
From a brief conversation I had earlier this week, yes there are. The
plan is grub2 for BIOS based machines, grub for EFI in F16. There are EFI changes in grub that need to be ported to grub2 and that is an F17 target.
josh
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 04:04:30AM +0200, Lars Seipel wrote:
On Friday, August 26, 2011 04:58:22 PM Al Dunsmuir wrote:
On systems where 32-bit is XP is running, one by definition is running with a disk of 2 TB or less. Fedora installation must by default do the right thing. We need to agree on what that happens to be.
On systems with legacy operating systems installed Fedora does not touch the partition table at all. On all other systems GPT is the way to go I'd say...
In F16 is it still possible to force creation of MSDOS partition table without GPT using a kickstart script ?
-- Pasi
On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 09:53:53PM +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 04:04:30AM +0200, Lars Seipel wrote:
On Friday, August 26, 2011 04:58:22 PM Al Dunsmuir wrote:
On systems where 32-bit is XP is running, one by definition is running with a disk of 2 TB or less. Fedora installation must by default do the right thing. We need to agree on what that happens to be.
On systems with legacy operating systems installed Fedora does not touch the partition table at all. On all other systems GPT is the way to go I'd say...
In F16 is it still possible to force creation of MSDOS partition table without GPT using a kickstart script ?
Or with some boot/cmdline option?
Afaik for example rhel5 Xen pygrub has issues with GPT, and it'd be good to be able to install F16 domUs on rhel5 Xen by forcing creation of msdos partition table..
-- Pasi
On Fri, 2011-10-14 at 22:44 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 09:53:53PM +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 04:04:30AM +0200, Lars Seipel wrote:
On Friday, August 26, 2011 04:58:22 PM Al Dunsmuir wrote:
On systems where 32-bit is XP is running, one by definition is running with a disk of 2 TB or less. Fedora installation must by default do the right thing. We need to agree on what that happens to be.
On systems with legacy operating systems installed Fedora does not touch the partition table at all. On all other systems GPT is the way to go I'd say...
In F16 is it still possible to force creation of MSDOS partition table without GPT using a kickstart script ?
Or with some boot/cmdline option?
Afaik for example rhel5 Xen pygrub has issues with GPT, and it'd be good to be able to install F16 domUs on rhel5 Xen by forcing creation of msdos partition table..
As of Final TC1 (anaconda 16.21) this should be possible by passing 'nogpt' as a kernel parameter to the installer.
On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 12:47:58PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Fri, 2011-10-14 at 22:44 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 09:53:53PM +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 04:04:30AM +0200, Lars Seipel wrote:
On Friday, August 26, 2011 04:58:22 PM Al Dunsmuir wrote:
On systems where 32-bit is XP is running, one by definition is running with a disk of 2 TB or less. Fedora installation must by default do the right thing. We need to agree on what that happens to be.
On systems with legacy operating systems installed Fedora does not touch the partition table at all. On all other systems GPT is the way to go I'd say...
In F16 is it still possible to force creation of MSDOS partition table without GPT using a kickstart script ?
Or with some boot/cmdline option?
Afaik for example rhel5 Xen pygrub has issues with GPT, and it'd be good to be able to install F16 domUs on rhel5 Xen by forcing creation of msdos partition table..
As of Final TC1 (anaconda 16.21) this should be possible by passing 'nogpt' as a kernel parameter to the installer.
This is great! Thanks!
-- Pasi
On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 12:47:58PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Fri, 2011-10-14 at 22:44 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 09:53:53PM +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 04:04:30AM +0200, Lars Seipel wrote:
On Friday, August 26, 2011 04:58:22 PM Al Dunsmuir wrote:
On systems where 32-bit is XP is running, one by definition is running with a disk of 2 TB or less. Fedora installation must by default do the right thing. We need to agree on what that happens to be.
On systems with legacy operating systems installed Fedora does not touch the partition table at all. On all other systems GPT is the way to go I'd say...
In F16 is it still possible to force creation of MSDOS partition table without GPT using a kickstart script ?
Or with some boot/cmdline option?
Afaik for example rhel5 Xen pygrub has issues with GPT, and it'd be good to be able to install F16 domUs on rhel5 Xen by forcing creation of msdos partition table..
As of Final TC1 (anaconda 16.21) this should be possible by passing 'nogpt' as a kernel parameter to the installer.
I tried F16 Final TC1 with "nogpt" boot option but it didn't work unfortunately.. More info here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=735733
-- Pasi
On 08/25/2011 08:11 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
To boot to a GPT disk from BIOS (rather than EFI) you need a BIOS boot partition. If you use one of the automatic partitioning methods, rather than manual partitioning, F16's installer will create one for you. If you choose manual partitioning on a BIOS system and don't create a BIOS boot partition, anaconda will pop up a (somewhat cryptic) warning.
FWIW, there are bugs on Macintoshes of the sort "can't have GPT, but also can't have MBR", and the Linux-on-Mac people came up with the hybrid GPT/MBR partitioning, i.e. partition data that looks simultaneously like a valid GPT and MBR:
devel@lists.stg.fedoraproject.org
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Adam Williamson -
Al Dunsmuir -
Andrew McNabb -
David Lehman -
Josh Boyer -
Karel Zak -
Lars Seipel -
Pasi Kärkkäinen -
Przemek Klosowski