The roadmap targets 1.0 release for September 14th (one week before FC3T3) : http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/roadmap.html
FC3 for October 18th
Since Evolution is the default mail client, perhaps it's time to push FireFox in Fedora Core and set it as default browser. Or it's better to wait FireFox 1.0 _and_ Thunderbird 1.0.
Christopher Aillon wrote:
Right. In order to replace Mozilla, you need a browser, a mail client, an irc client, etc. But you're forgetting that we already ship the other pieces. If we throw in Firefox, you have your browser, we ship a mail client already (Evolution), we have X-Chat and GAIM for IRC. The
For some users like me, evolution is unacceptably slow and unusable as it takes several minutes to read ANY MAIL after starting when connecting to my IMAP account. All versions continue to lock up and require killing periodically. I am also extremely annoyed by its brain dead clipboard behavior.
I prefer to use thunderbird because it is almost instant-fast in loading my IMAP folders, and its clipboard behavior is not brain dead.
I realize that evolution is fine for most users, especially if they use local folders. Many large IMAP folders however is just too painful to use with evolution.
Warren Togami wtogami@redhat.com
Christopher Aillon wrote:
Or it's better to wait FireFox 1.0 _and_ Thunderbird 1.0.
How so? That mindset sort of implies an application suite. Which is precisely what Firefox and Thunderbird are striving to get away from.
It would be beneficial to ship firefox in the distribution because AFAIK mozilla still lacks the ability of setting a non-mozilla mail client for sending mail when you click on mailto links. On FC2+ GNOME's Preferred Application chooser allows you to seemlessly choose any browser or mail client and things work as expected, except from mozilla browser.
Warren
On 07/13/2004 01:53 PM, Matias Feliciano wrote:
The roadmap targets 1.0 release for September 14th (one week before FC3T3) : http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/roadmap.html
FC3 for October 18th
Since Evolution is the default mail client, perhaps it's time to push FireFox in Fedora Core and set it as default browser.
I don't see what Evolution has to do with Firefox (nit, the F in Fox is not capitalized).
Or it's better to wait FireFox 1.0 _and_ Thunderbird 1.0.
How so? That mindset sort of implies an application suite. Which is precisely what Firefox and Thunderbird are striving to get away from.
It seems to me that the entire linux desktop is moving away from the "suite" of tools and instead developing a "modular collection" of standalone programs that may be installed and used independently of each other. To that end is there a future to the idea of incorporateing the Thunderbird Mail program as a default mail browser instead of the useful but bulky evolution suite? Or are we looking for the concurrent development of Sunbird (scheduling itch) before that becomes a real option? And as a final point what about the management of contact information in the mozilla suite? does anyone else feel like it should be a bit more formalized and independent from any of the applications? I think that a lot of applications that currently manage contact information could benefit from the development.
Firefox - Web Sunbird - Schedule Thunderbird - Mail "Other"bird/fox - People
-- Michael Favia
Le mar 13/07/2004 à 20:08, Christopher Aillon a écrit :
On 07/13/2004 01:53 PM, Matias Feliciano wrote:
The roadmap targets 1.0 release for September 14th (one week before FC3T3) : http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/roadmap.html
FC3 for October 18th
Since Evolution is the default mail client, perhaps it's time to push FireFox in Fedora Core and set it as default browser.
I don't see what Evolution has to do with Firefox (nit, the F in Fox is not capitalized).
Evolution is the default mail client, we don't need the email capability of the default browser (Mozilla). Firefox seems fine.
Or it's better to wait FireFox 1.0 _and_ Thunderbird 1.0.
How so? That mindset sort of implies an application suite. Which is precisely what Firefox and Thunderbird are striving to get away from.
Many FC2 users use Mozilla as a mail client. Because html :-) cross platform (Windows).
We can't "replace" Mozilla by Firefox only.
FC2 : default email : evolution alternative email : mozilla default browser : Mozilla alternative browser : epiphany
What I would like for FC3 (if possible) : default email : Evolution alternative email : Thunderbird (for mozilla user) default browser : Firefox alternative browser : epiphany
If Thunderbird is not ready at time for FC3 we should keep Mozilla (mostly for its email capability) : Default email : Evolution alternative email : Mozilla Default browser : Firefox alternative browser : Mozilla alternative browser : epiphany
btw, if Firefox is the default browser, in what group should be Mozilla if it is mostly used as a mail client in FC3 (browser or mail client ?).
And for FC4 : Default email : Thunderbird Default Calendar : Mozilla calendar (sunbird) Alternative email/Calendar : Evolution Default browser : Firefox Alternative browser : epiphany
For the desktop "market" it's important to be able to use the same "core desktop" applications with Linux and Windows (OOo, Thunderbird, Firefox).
It's only a wish.
PS : sorry for my English. PS2 : I don't use KDE.
On 07/13/2004 04:15 PM, Matias Feliciano wrote:
Le mar 13/07/2004 à 20:08, Christopher Aillon a écrit :
On 07/13/2004 01:53 PM, Matias Feliciano wrote:
The roadmap targets 1.0 release for September 14th (one week before FC3T3) : http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/roadmap.html
FC3 for October 18th
Since Evolution is the default mail client, perhaps it's time to push FireFox in Fedora Core and set it as default browser.
I don't see what Evolution has to do with Firefox (nit, the F in Fox is not capitalized).
Evolution is the default mail client, we don't need the email capability of the default browser (Mozilla). Firefox seems fine.
Ah. That logic wasn't initially clear to me. But on the flipside, you don't need Firefox to do that. It is possible to have a Mozilla without the mail portion. Try "rpm -e mozilla-mail" for example, or --disable-mailnews if building from source, which we could easily add to the specfiles.
Or it's better to wait FireFox 1.0 _and_ Thunderbird 1.0.
How so? That mindset sort of implies an application suite. Which is precisely what Firefox and Thunderbird are striving to get away from.
Many FC2 users use Mozilla as a mail client. Because html :-) cross platform (Windows).
We can't "replace" Mozilla by Firefox only.
Right. In order to replace Mozilla, you need a browser, a mail client, an irc client, etc. But you're forgetting that we already ship the other pieces. If we throw in Firefox, you have your browser, we ship a mail client already (Evolution), we have X-Chat and GAIM for IRC. The other bits included in Mozilla (for example DOM Inspector) are available as Firefox extensions. So you have your replacements there.
I'll also note that the Firefox roadmap is just a guideline, and is not set in stone. It is conceivable -- quite likely even -- that the Firefox release will slip past Sep 14. How far past, I don't know, but hopefully not too far. The release date for a mozilla.org project is always "when it's ready. which will hopefully be what the roadmap says". Unfortunately, past history has shown that the roadmap release date is seldom achieved.
Oh and by the way, I _do_ want to see Firefox as the default browser, in case that was not obvious. ;-)
Cheers.
Le mar 13/07/2004 à 23:53, Christopher Aillon a écrit :
Right. In order to replace Mozilla, you need a browser, a mail client, an irc client, etc. But you're forgetting that we already ship the other pieces. If we throw in Firefox, you have your browser, we ship a mail client already (Evolution), we have X-Chat and GAIM for IRC. The other bits included in Mozilla (for example DOM Inspector) are available as Firefox extensions. So you have your replacements there.
There is big difference between Evolution and Mozilla. Mozilla "just works" with html mail. I don't write html mail but I receive html mail :-( Evolution is a great software, but at my office I need Mozilla.
On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 15:26, Matias Feliciano wrote:
There is big difference between Evolution and Mozilla. Mozilla "just works" with html mail. I don't write html mail but I receive html mail :-( Evolution is a great software, but at my office I need Mozilla.
Just how does Evolution not "just work" with HTML mail? Sure, remote image loading is turned off by default but that is a feature. You can easily either turn it on globally if you want or load images in a particular message with View->Message Display->Load Images (in Mozilla Mail I have only figured out how to do that configuration globally, and I actually do want to load the images in some mail after seeing the source. I haven't looked hard in Moz though, Evo does the job for me.)
Is there anything else in HTML mail that doesn't work in Evolution?
/Per
On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 16:15, Matias Feliciano wrote:
And for FC4 : Default email : Thunderbird Default Calendar : Mozilla calendar (sunbird) Alternative email/Calendar : Evolution Default browser : Firefox Alternative browser : epiphany
I'd swap your defaults and alternatives, but agree on this set of apps.
For the desktop "market" it's important to be able to use the same "core desktop" applications with Linux and Windows (OOo, Thunderbird, Firefox).
I agree with this, but to me the defaults should be the Linux native and optimized user experience, and the alternatives should be the "Windows migration" applications.
This is assuming of course basically comparable functionality; OO.org is the default since it is the only app with really suitable functionality.
Havoc
Does anyone know why galeon gets so little respect ? It's so much better than epiphany and IMO a lot better than firefox. In particular the bookmarks configuration is the best of any browsers, where you can create your own toolbar forms entries and sub-menus... Is it a stability issue ? Or a political issue of some sort ?
just curious -denis
--- Matias Feliciano feliciano.matias@free.fr wrote:
FC2 : default email : evolution alternative email : mozilla default browser : Mozilla alternative browser : epiphany
What I would like for FC3 (if possible) : default email : Evolution alternative email : Thunderbird (for mozilla user) default browser : Firefox alternative browser : epiphany
On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 18:03 -0700, Denis Leroy wrote:
Does anyone know why galeon gets so little respect ? It's so much better than epiphany and IMO a lot better than firefox. In particular the bookmarks configuration is the best of any browsers, where you can create your own toolbar forms entries and sub-menus... Is it a stability issue ? Or a political issue of some sort ?
This issue was discussed extensively on the GNOME lists when Epiphany was proposed for inclusion in GNOME. Now that Epiphany is officially part of the GNOME Desktop (the upstream for most of Fedora's desktop), unless you have something new to add, I'm not sure what value there is in reviving that discussion.
--- Colin Walters walters@verbum.org wrote:
On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 18:03 -0700, Denis Leroy wrote:
Does anyone know why galeon gets so little respect ? It's so much better than epiphany and IMO a lot better than firefox. In
particular
the bookmarks configuration is the best of any browsers, where you
can
create your own toolbar forms entries and sub-menus... Is it a stability issue ? Or a political issue of some sort ?
This issue was discussed extensively on the GNOME lists when Epiphany was proposed for inclusion in GNOME. Now that Epiphany is officially part of the GNOME Desktop (the upstream for most of Fedora's desktop), unless you have something new to add, I'm not sure what value there is in reviving that discussion.
Indeed, but that was the Gnome community, and the Gnome community made its choice on the highly unpopular and featureless epiphany.
This is the Fedora community, which will make its own decision (and indeed it is leaning towards firefox rather than epiphany). I'm just lobbying for a third candidate to be at least *considered*. That is all.
-denis
Christopher Aillon schrieb:
On 07/13/2004 04:15 PM, Matias Feliciano wrote:
Le mar 13/07/2004 à 20:08, Christopher Aillon a écrit :
On 07/13/2004 01:53 PM, Matias Feliciano wrote:
The roadmap targets 1.0 release for September 14th (one week before FC3T3) : http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/roadmap.html
FC3 for October 18th
Since Evolution is the default mail client, perhaps it's time to push FireFox in Fedora Core and set it as default browser.
I don't see what Evolution has to do with Firefox (nit, the F in Fox is not capitalized).
Evolution is the default mail client, we don't need the email capability of the default browser (Mozilla). Firefox seems fine.
Ah. That logic wasn't initially clear to me. But on the flipside, you don't need Firefox to do that. It is possible to have a Mozilla without the mail portion. Try "rpm -e mozilla-mail" for example, or --disable-mailnews if building from source, which we could easily add to the specfiles.
Or it's better to wait FireFox 1.0 _and_ Thunderbird 1.0.
How so? That mindset sort of implies an application suite. Which is precisely what Firefox and Thunderbird are striving to get away from.
Many FC2 users use Mozilla as a mail client. Because html :-) cross platform (Windows).
We can't "replace" Mozilla by Firefox only.
Right. In order to replace Mozilla, you need a browser, a mail client, an irc client, etc. But you're forgetting that we already ship the other pieces. If we throw in Firefox, you have your browser, we ship a mail client already (Evolution), we have X-Chat and GAIM for IRC. The other bits included in Mozilla (for example DOM Inspector) are available as Firefox extensions. So you have your replacements there.
I'll also note that the Firefox roadmap is just a guideline, and is not set in stone. It is conceivable -- quite likely even -- that the Firefox release will slip past Sep 14. How far past, I don't know, but hopefully not too far. The release date for a mozilla.org project is always "when it's ready. which will hopefully be what the roadmap says". Unfortunately, past history has shown that the roadmap release date is seldom achieved.
Oh and by the way, I _do_ want to see Firefox as the default browser, in case that was not obvious. ;-)
Cheers.
There is no reason to replace mozilla some people preffer it some not. Just add Firefox and make it selectable in preffered applications.
dragoran wrote:
There is no reason to replace mozilla some people preffer it some not. Just add Firefox and make it selectable in preffered applications.
Actually, there are several:
1. Mozilla (Seamonkey) is considered deprecated by mozilla.org. "Firefox is the future." 2. As a result of #1, more development happens for Firefox; bugs are more likely to get fixed in it. 3. No future Mozilla threads along the lines of: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-July/msg00315.html 4. Shipping two mozilla.org branded browsers is double the work of shipping one. And let me assure you that shipping one is plenty of work.
On Wed, Jul 14, 2004 at 12:26:22AM +0200, Matias Feliciano wrote:
There is big difference between Evolution and Mozilla. Mozilla "just works" with html mail. I don't write html mail but I receive html mail :-( Evolution is a great software, but at my office I need Mozilla.
Well, if one wants to use this argument we should definately change the default mailreader to xterm -e mutt :-)
to muttrc auto_view application/msword auto_view text/html
and to mailcap
application/msword; /local/bin/antiword %s; copiousoutput text/html; elinks -dump -dump-charset iso-8859-15 -default-mime-type text/html %s; needsterminal; copiousoutput;
and you only see ascii no matter what crap people send you :-)
Hi Denis,
(Very Gnome centric discussion altogether this one.)
This is the Fedora community, which will make its own decision (and indeed it is leaning towards firefox rather than epiphany). I'm just lobbying for a third candidate to be at least *considered*. That is all.
A third candidate is already there: Konqueror. And in contrast to Galeon and Epiphany it uses it's own engine. Some seem to forget that the latter both use Mozilla's Gecko engine and thus require (parts of) Mozilla to be around.
Although I like Firefox I don't think it's ready for prime time just yet. Together with the fact mentioned above I don't think we can drop Mozilla yet.
Regarding Galeon, you might want to check out http://galeon.sourceforge.net and scan for the words "End of the line". Unless you want to do some serious maintenance/development yourself Galeon is as good as dead.
Leonard.
On Wed, Jul 14, 2004 at 12:12:26PM +0200, Leonard den Ottolander wrote:
A third candidate is already there: Konqueror. And in contrast to Galeon
Using Konqueror in GNOME pulls in a whole bunch of KDE/Qt stuff, that you do not want (when using GNOME), so I think this is not a real option.
Even when disregarding the implications that using this would have on the size of the base install, doesn't konqy still have problems with some CSS stuff, and other details.
- David
On ons, 2004-07-14 at 12:12 +0200, Leonard den Ottolander wrote:
Hi Denis,
(Very Gnome centric discussion altogether this one.)
This is the Fedora community, which will make its own decision (and indeed it is leaning towards firefox rather than epiphany). I'm just lobbying for a third candidate to be at least *considered*. That is all.
A third candidate is already there: Konqueror. And in contrast to Galeon and Epiphany it uses it's own engine. Some seem to forget that the latter both use Mozilla's Gecko engine and thus require (parts of) Mozilla to be around.
Although I like Firefox I don't think it's ready for prime time just yet. Together with the fact mentioned above I don't think we can drop Mozilla yet.
Regarding Galeon, you might want to check out http://galeon.sourceforge.net and scan for the words "End of the line". Unless you want to do some serious maintenance/development yourself Galeon is as good as dead.
Leonard.
-- mount -t life -o ro /dev/dna /genetic/research
Le mer 14/07/2004 à 02:03, Per Bjornsson a écrit :
On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 15:26, Matias Feliciano wrote:
There is big difference between Evolution and Mozilla. Mozilla "just works" with html mail. I don't write html mail but I receive html mail :-( Evolution is a great software, but at my office I need Mozilla.
Just how does Evolution not "just work" with HTML mail?
My last "problems" : http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Evolution-1.png http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Mozilla-1.png http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Evolution-2.png http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Mozilla-2.png
Sure, remote image loading is turned off by default but that is a feature. You can easily either turn it on globally if you want or load images in a particular message with View->Message Display->Load Images (in Mozilla Mail I have only figured out how to do that configuration globally, and I actually do want to load the images in some mail after seeing the source. I haven't looked hard in Moz though, Evo does the job for me.)
Is there anything else in HTML mail that doesn't work in Evolution?
I don't know if my problems are related to CSS, crappy html, outlook touch, ... but Evolution isn't "that just works" compliant.
/Per
-- Per Bjornsson perbj@stanford.edu Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Applied Physics, Stanford University
Le mer 14/07/2004 à 02:52, Havoc Pennington a écrit :
On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 16:15, Matias Feliciano wrote:
And for FC4 : Default email : Thunderbird Default Calendar : Mozilla calendar (sunbird) Alternative email/Calendar : Evolution Default browser : Firefox Alternative browser : epiphany
I'd swap your defaults and alternatives, but agree on this set of apps.
For the desktop "market" it's important to be able to use the same "core desktop" applications with Linux and Windows (OOo, Thunderbird, Firefox).
I agree with this, but to me the defaults should be the Linux native and optimized user experience, and the alternatives should be the "Windows migration" applications.
Red Hat/Fedora use Mozilla by default. Why Red Hat choose Mozilla over Galeon and Epiphany ? For migration propose ?
btw, Galeon and Epiphany use Gecko which is not Linux native. cross-platform does not mean "push windows touch anywhere".
Mozilla is a "Windows migration" application only if the Windows user already use Mozilla. Mozilla is a "Linux migration" application only if the Linux user already use Mozilla.
If I show Firefox to a Windows user they don't say : - great Windows application, sound like IE.
If I show Evolution to a Windows user ...
This is assuming of course basically comparable functionality; OO.org is the default since it is the only app with really suitable functionality.
Havoc
Hello Jos,
Using Konqueror in GNOME pulls in a whole bunch of KDE/Qt stuff, that you do not want (when using GNOME), so I think this is not a real option.
It's a pity you don't quote my first sentence ;) . At least Konqueror doesn't require Mozilla to run. Personally I am not too concerned about running KDE apps on Gnome and vice versa.
Leonard.
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:57:15 +1000, Warren Togami wrote:
For some users like me, evolution is unacceptably slow and unusable as it takes several minutes to read ANY MAIL after starting when connecting to my IMAP account. All versions continue to lock up and require killing periodically. I am also extremely annoyed by its brain dead clipboard behavior.
Since upgrading to 1.5.7 I haven't had any problems with its IMAP implementation at all. I used to see periodic deadlocking as well, but the new version (OK, not yet released) is *vastly* improved in this dept.
thanks -mike
Hi David,
Even when disregarding the implications that using this would have on the size of the base install, doesn't konqy still have problems with some CSS stuff, and other details.
Quite possibly but Firefox (which I do use on a much more regular basis then Konqueror by the way) also isn't fully mature yet, and people are already proposing to make that the default browser. If issues are an issue we could probably stop shipping a significant part of the included apps, including quite a few Gnome apps and libraries.
Leonard.
On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 06:45:05PM -0700, Denis Leroy wrote:
This is the Fedora community, which will make its own decision (and indeed it is leaning towards firefox rather than epiphany). I'm just lobbying for a third candidate to be at least *considered*. That is all.
Same here -- I'd also like to see Galeon at least considered as an additional option. Epiphany has taken Gnome's minimalism too far for my tastes, and while Firefox is nice, it lacks a few features that I enjoy in Galeon: gnome session management, an option to only loop through animated GIFs once, and a feature that remembers the zoom level that I prefer for sites that I've previously visited.
On ons, 2004-07-14 at 07:46 -0400, John Kodis wrote:
Same here -- I'd also like to see Galeon at least considered as an additional option. Epiphany has taken Gnome's minimalism too far for my tastes, and while Firefox is nice, it lacks a few features that I enjoy in Galeon: gnome session management, an option to only loop through animated GIFs once,
Maybe you already knew this, but you can go to about:config, and set image.animation_mode to "once" (or "none" to turn off completely"). Or, get the Developer toolbar extension, which has a menu option to do this.
/Peter
Matias Feliciano wrote:
Le mer 14/07/2004 à 02:03, Per Bjornsson a écrit :
On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 15:26, Matias Feliciano wrote:
There is big difference between Evolution and Mozilla. Mozilla "just works" with html mail. I don't write html mail but I receive html mail :-( Evolution is a great software, but at my office I need Mozilla.
Just how does Evolution not "just work" with HTML mail?
My last "problems" : http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Evolution-1.png http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Mozilla-1.png http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Evolution-2.png http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Mozilla-2.png
I generally never give out about stuff, but this takes the biscuit. I assumed evolution (gtkhtml) used gecko as it's rendering engine. I can't believe they invented the wheel again! See question 9 here: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3705&page=4
Pádraig.
On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 12:52 +0200, Matias Feliciano wrote:
Le mer 14/07/2004 à 02:52, Havoc Pennington a écrit :
On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 16:15, Matias Feliciano wrote:
And for FC4 : Default email : Thunderbird Default Calendar : Mozilla calendar (sunbird) Alternative email/Calendar : Evolution Default browser : Firefox Alternative browser : epiphany
I'd swap your defaults and alternatives, but agree on this set of apps.
For the desktop "market" it's important to be able to use the same "core desktop" applications with Linux and Windows (OOo, Thunderbird, Firefox).
I agree with this, but to me the defaults should be the Linux native and optimized user experience, and the alternatives should be the "Windows migration" applications.
Red Hat/Fedora use Mozilla by default. Why Red Hat choose Mozilla over Galeon and Epiphany ? For migration propose ?
If you read Havoc's mail a bit more carefully, he was advocating Epiphany over Mozilla.
btw, Galeon and Epiphany use Gecko which is not Linux native. cross-platform does not mean "push windows touch anywhere".
Gecko is more or less invisible to the end user, so it's not important in this discussion. Other things like preferences and dialogs are more user-visible.
Leonard den Ottolander wrote:
Hi David,
Even when disregarding the implications that using this would have on the size of the base install, doesn't konqy still have problems with some CSS stuff, and other details.
Quite possibly but Firefox (which I do use on a much more regular basis then Konqueror by the way) also isn't fully mature yet, and people are already proposing to make that the default browser. If issues are an issue we could probably stop shipping a significant part of the included apps, including quite a few Gnome apps and libraries.
Please explain using concrete examples reasons why Firefox is not "fully mature yet"? While I personally am slightly annoyed by the way the preferences are laid out, I am otherwise generally very happy with firefox in all regards.
Warren Togami wtogami@redhat.com
On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 12:12 +0200, Leonard den Ottolander wrote: ......
Regarding Galeon, you might want to check out http://galeon.sourceforge.net and scan for the words "End of the line".
That was the name of the last release of the 1.2.x gtk1/gnome1 branch which has been frozen for more than an year now and just occasionally updated for mozilla api changes. Perhaps you are aware that both Fedora Core 1 and 2 have been shipping a gtk2 based mozilla.
Unless you want to do some serious maintenance/development yourself Galeon is as good as dead.
Huh? Somehow you missed all the steady activity on the 1.3.x gtk2/gnome2 branch which has regular releases, has reached a good level of maturity and will soon be promoted to a stable status. In addition to being nicely integrated in the GNOME2 environment and following the letter of the HIG it also has many of the nifty features that made 1.2.x popular. Hardly dead or unmaintained....
Yanko
Yanko
On 07/14/2004 08:56 AM, Warren Togami wrote:
Leonard den Ottolander wrote:
Quite possibly but Firefox (which I do use on a much more regular basis then Konqueror by the way) also isn't fully mature yet, and people are already proposing to make that the default browser. If issues are an issue we could probably stop shipping a significant part of the included apps, including quite a few Gnome apps and libraries.
Please explain using concrete examples reasons why Firefox is not "fully mature yet"?
Here's one: http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/releases/0.9.1.html
"Firefox 0.9 is a Technology Preview. While this software works well enough to be relied upon as your primary browser in most cases, we make no guarantees of its performance or stability. It is a pre-release product and should not be relied upon for mission-critical tasks."
On Wed, Jul 14, 2004 at 02:24:19PM +0200, Peter Backlund wrote:
Maybe you already knew this, but you can go to about:config, and set image.animation_mode to "once" (or "none" to turn off completely"). Or, get the Developer toolbar extension, which has a menu option to do this.
No, I hadn't noticed that. I have seen mention of the about:config pseudo-URL, but hadn't checked through all the options. Thanks for pointing this out.
BTW, do you know of some easy way (i.e., other than reading the source code) to figure out what the allowable values for these parameters are?
--- Warren Togami wtogami@redhat.com wrote:
Please explain using concrete examples reasons why Firefox is not "fully mature yet"? While I personally am slightly annoyed by the way the preferences are laid out, I am otherwise generally very happy with firefox in all regards.
Warren Togami wtogami@redhat.com
I love firefox too and it's my de-facto browser on Windows VMs. Firefox and Galeon are very similar, both are designed to be light-weight (but not featureless) browsers on top of the mozilla engine. However, firefox is not a true gnome application and does not integrate with the Gnome desktop well, unlike galeon which uses Gnome's default configurations whenever possible (proxy settings, etc...) and can be used as the default browser in Nautilus (type a URL in Nautilus, click on 'View as' and select 'View as web page (Galeon)'.). Also, firefox is not easy to package (see FreshRpms' threads on that subject). ..
Denis Leroy denis at poolshark dot org
Le mer 14/07/2004 à 14:50, Colin Walters a écrit :
If you read Havoc's mail a bit more carefully, he was advocating Epiphany over Mozilla.
? And I am advocating Mozilla/Firefox over epiphany. It's matter of taste. This is not the point.
The point is : - can we consider Mozilla as a "Windows migration" application
I think no. Mozilla isn't something like Wine, dosemu, vfat, vmware,...
Mozilla is a cross-platform application and it appear that it also works under Windows.
Gimp has been ported to Windows and the developers don't say : - Ooops, we did a "Windows migration" application and Gimp should be an alternative for Linux.
On ons, 2004-07-14 at 12:15 -0400, John Kodis wrote:
On Wed, Jul 14, 2004 at 02:24:19PM +0200, Peter Backlund wrote:
Maybe you already knew this, but you can go to about:config, and set image.animation_mode to "once" (or "none" to turn off completely"). Or, get the Developer toolbar extension, which has a menu option to do this.
No, I hadn't noticed that. I have seen mention of the about:config pseudo-URL, but hadn't checked through all the options. Thanks for pointing this out.
BTW, do you know of some easy way (i.e., other than reading the source code) to figure out what the allowable values for these parameters are?
Here's a partial list:
http://kb.mozillazine.org/index.phtml?title=Firefox_:_FAQs_:_About:config_En...
/Peter
On Wednesday 14 July 2004 03:42 am, David Nielsen wrote:
Even when disregarding the implications that using this would have on the size of the base install, doesn't konqy still have problems with some CSS stuff, and other details.
You should check back on Konqueror. If you've been out of the loop over 6 months on it, you've missed a lot. KHTML is in Safari, Apple's browser. They've contributed a lot in the last few months, and I daresay that KHTML is comparable to Mozilla nowadays. Its reputation has yet to catch up.
Christopher Aillon wrote:
dragoran wrote:
There is no reason to replace mozilla some people preffer it some not. Just add Firefox and make it selectable in preffered applications.
Actually, there are several:
- Mozilla (Seamonkey) is considered deprecated by mozilla.org.
"Firefox is the future." 2. As a result of #1, more development happens for Firefox; bugs are more likely to get fixed in it.
Yep, though there still is a community around the suite (seamonkey).
- No future Mozilla threads along the lines of:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-July/msg00315.html
That won't happen for a long while AFAICT.
- Shipping two mozilla.org branded browsers is double the work of
shipping one. And let me assure you that shipping one is plenty of work.
I'm sure.
That said, I prefer thunderbird and firefox over seamonkey, so you have another vote to drop seamonkey (mozilla).
On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 12:52 +0200, Matias Feliciano wrote:
Le mer 14/07/2004 à 02:03, Per Bjornsson a écrit :
On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 15:26, Matias Feliciano wrote:
There is big difference between Evolution and Mozilla. Mozilla "just works" with html mail. I don't write html mail but I receive html mail :-(
Do you ever receive html mail that isn't spam?
Evolution is a great software, but at my office I need Mozilla.
Just how does Evolution not "just work" with HTML mail?
My last "problems" : http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Evolution-1.png http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Mozilla-1.png http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Evolution-2.png http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Mozilla-2.png
Which version of gtkhtml3 and evolution were these with? Have you filed these two in Bugzilla?
[snip]
yaneti@declera.com (Yanko Kaneti) writes:
Unless you want to do some serious maintenance/development yourself Galeon is as good as dead.
Huh? Somehow you missed all the steady activity on the 1.3.x gtk2/gnome2 branch which has regular releases, has reached a good level of maturity and will soon be promoted to a stable status. In addition to being nicely integrated in the GNOME2 environment and following the letter of the HIG it also has many of the nifty features that made 1.2.x popular.
Following the Gnome HIG is a death sentence for applications which are used regularly. Browsers are such a kind of applications... e.g.:
* HIG requires reuse of Gnome Proxy settings, but these are broken/non-existent since early days (or: where is the no_proxy support?). For browsers, it may be sometimes usefully to use different proxies but changing them would affect the entire system. * optimizations for often used applications like smaller toolbars are possible for the entire system only. This may conflict with the settings for seldom used applications where e.g. 'Icons & Text' is needed. * lots of important settings can be done with regedit only; README.ExtraPrefs is probably the most useful file in galeon. Ordinary users want to configure things without reading a huge document.
Trying to follow Gnome HIG for galeon 1.3 is wasting of resources; there is already Epiphany. Developers could try to make it a powerful browser again, but this slot is filled by Firefox already.
Enrico
On 07/14/2004 03:16 PM, Mike Fedyk wrote:
Christopher Aillon wrote:
dragoran wrote:
There is no reason to replace mozilla some people preffer it some not. Just add Firefox and make it selectable in preffered applications.
Actually, there are several:
- Mozilla (Seamonkey) is considered deprecated by mozilla.org.
"Firefox is the future." 2. As a result of #1, more development happens for Firefox; bugs are more likely to get fixed in it.
Yep, though there still is a community around the suite (seamonkey).
A user community, sure. A development community? Not really.
- No future Mozilla threads along the lines of:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-July/msg00315.html
That won't happen for a long while AFAICT.
One could easily come to the conclusion that the new Mozilla release schedule with the extra alpha cycle is to slow down releases for fear of needing a 1.10. Silly? Mozilla avoided 0.10 in the pre-1.0 days. Firefox is doing the same today. One could then further conclude that 1.9 (later this year) will be the last in the Seamonkey regime....
wtogami@redhat.com (Warren Togami) writes:
Please explain using concrete examples reasons why Firefox is not "fully mature yet"?
The extension concept needs improvements:
* extensions should be signed; current situation where you have *only* unsigned extensions trains users to accept the big red warning as the normal case
* there are too much extensions, it is too easy to install them and there is no working way to upgrade them. Users will end in lots of extensions of unknown authors which were not updated for ages. This will be a huge security problem
* extensions are difficultly to manage; they need a special (active) installation routine and are indexed by non-human readable keys. AFAIK, there does not exist a way to install them on the CLI ('-installExtension' does not work afais)
I hope, that firefox will implement the features natively so that most extensions becomes unneeded.
Enrico
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:11:53 +0200, Enrico Scholz enrico.scholz@informatik.tu-chemnitz.de wrote:
- extensions should be signed; current situation where you have *only* unsigned extensions trains users to accept the big red warning as the normal case
I agree with this in terms of human engineering, but don't know if this is a reason to keep it out of core. Let me fire up the letter writing bot to all the extention authors about signing their code right now.....
there are too much extensions, it is too easy to install them and there is no working way to upgrade them. Users will end in lots of extensions of unknown authors which were not updated for ages. This will be a huge security problem
extensions are difficultly to manage; they need a special (active) installation routine and are indexed by non-human readable keys. AFAIK, there does not exist a way to install them on the CLI ('-installExtension' does not work afais)
I think the lack of a clean admin solution to installing and maintaining a centralized set of extentions is a problem that should keep it out of core. I'd personally like to see extention management in firefox get to the point where an rpm package version of firefox could come with user installable extention support disabled completely with extentions being expected to be installed via rpm packages by default. I think the new Xvfb trick being used in fedora.us package raises some serious questions about firefox being ready to be in Core and certaintly not the default browser. The scriptable cli installation of extentions from rpms needs to be worked out correctly i think before its ready for consideration.
-jef
Le mer 14/07/2004 à 21:23, David Malcolm a écrit :
On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 12:52 +0200, Matias Feliciano wrote:
My last "problems" : http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Evolution-1.png http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Mozilla-1.png http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Evolution-2.png http://feliciano.matias.free.fr/Capture-Mozilla-2.png
Which version of gtkhtml3 and evolution were these with?
FC2 : gtkhtml3-3.0.10-1 evolution-1.4.6-2
Have you filed these two in Bugzilla?
No.
The point is that I saw too many "bad rendering" with Evolution (since 1.0). Now i only use Evolution at home to read Evolution-friendly mails (Linux stuff like fedora list :-)). If I need a good html viewer I use Mozilla and I don't try to fix Evolution. I know, I am wrong.
I will not be surprised if many users do like me (mozilla => html (windows environment), evolution => txt (Linux environment)).
Christopher Aillon wrote:
On 07/14/2004 03:16 PM, Mike Fedyk wrote:
Christopher Aillon wrote:
dragoran wrote:
There is no reason to replace mozilla some people preffer it some not. Just add Firefox and make it selectable in preffered applications.
Actually, there are several:
- Mozilla (Seamonkey) is considered deprecated by mozilla.org.
"Firefox is the future." 2. As a result of #1, more development happens for Firefox; bugs are more likely to get fixed in it.
Yep, though there still is a community around the suite (seamonkey).
A user community, sure. A development community? Not really.
Not completely gone. Beonex is still based on seamonkey. And so are several other offerings.
That won't happen for a long while AFAICT.
- No future Mozilla threads along the lines of:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-July/msg00315.html
One could easily come to the conclusion that the new Mozilla release schedule with the extra alpha cycle is to slow down releases for fear of needing a 1.10. Silly? Mozilla avoided 0.10 in the pre-1.0 days. Firefox is doing the same today. One could then further conclude that 1.9 (later this year) will be the last in the Seamonkey regime....
Hmm, interesting.
Only time will tell...
On 07/14/2004 06:04 PM, Mike Fedyk wrote:
Christopher Aillon wrote:
On 07/14/2004 03:16 PM, Mike Fedyk wrote:
Yep, though there still is a community around the suite (seamonkey).
A user community, sure. A development community? Not really.
Not completely gone. Beonex is still based on seamonkey. And so are several other offerings.
Beonex is also on hold while BenB waits for Firefox 1.0 to come out so he can start basing it off of that. There are no new Beonex releases planned in the near term.
Denis Leroy wrote:
I love firefox too and it's my de-facto browser on Windows VMs. Firefox and Galeon are very similar, both are designed to be light-weight (but not featureless) browsers on top of the mozilla engine. However, firefox is not a true gnome application and does not integrate with the Gnome desktop well, unlike galeon which uses Gnome's default
If you are referring to GNOME HIG, I personally do not agree that all of the HIG rules are beneficial (especially the proxy rule), but I also am not interested in debating the HIG.
If you are referring to MIME integration, MIME is a mess across the entirety of GNOME itself (don't know about 2.8 work) and not limited to just the browser.
configurations whenever possible (proxy settings, etc...) and can be used as the default browser in Nautilus (type a URL in Nautilus, click on 'View as' and select 'View as web page (Galeon)'.). Also, firefox is not easy to package (see FreshRpms' threads on that subject). ..
firefox packaging has been solved: https://bugzilla.fedora.us/show_bug.cgi?id=1617 fedora.us used an ugly debian packaging hack temporarily, and will soon move to this upstream fix. http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=247846
Warren Togami wtogami@redhat.com
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004, David Malcolm wrote:
On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 12:52 +0200, Matias Feliciano wrote:
Le mer 14/07/2004 à 02:03, Per Bjornsson a écrit :
On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 15:26, Matias Feliciano wrote:
There is big difference between Evolution and Mozilla. Mozilla "just works" with html mail. I don't write html mail but I receive html mail :-(
Do you ever receive html mail that isn't spam?
Company internal announcements and such often are html where I work (but then I consider those as spam more often than not :)
- Panu -
On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 12:12 +0200, Leonard den Ottolander wrote:
Regarding Galeon, you might want to check out http://galeon.sourceforge.net and scan for the words "End of the line". Unless you want to do some serious maintenance/development yourself Galeon is as good as dead.
Galeon isn't dead. Galeon 1.2.x is dead. Galeon 1.3.x is still going strong. It IMHO is far better than Mozilla, Firefox, Konqueror, and Epiphany(PoS). It's biggest issue is that it isn't cross platform.
--- "Nathan G. Grennan" fedora-devel-list@cygnusx-1.org wrote:
On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 12:12 +0200, Leonard den Ottolander wrote:
Regarding Galeon, you might want to check out http://galeon.sourceforge.net and scan for the words "End of the
line".
Unless you want to do some serious maintenance/development yourself Galeon is as good as dead.
Galeon isn't dead. Galeon 1.2.x is dead. Galeon 1.3.x is still going strong. It IMHO is far better than Mozilla, Firefox, Konqueror, and Epiphany(PoS). It's biggest issue is that it isn't cross platform.
Out of curiosity, does anyone on this list actually uses epiphany as their main everyday-day browser ?
Denis Leroy http://www.poolshark.org/
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 10:39 -0700, Denis Leroy wrote:
--- "Nathan G. Grennan" fedora-devel-list@cygnusx-1.org wrote:
On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 12:12 +0200, Leonard den Ottolander wrote:
Regarding Galeon, you might want to check out http://galeon.sourceforge.net and scan for the words "End of the
line".
Unless you want to do some serious maintenance/development yourself Galeon is as good as dead.
Galeon isn't dead. Galeon 1.2.x is dead. Galeon 1.3.x is still going strong. It IMHO is far better than Mozilla, Firefox, Konqueror, and Epiphany(PoS). It's biggest issue is that it isn't cross platform.
Out of curiosity, does anyone on this list actually uses epiphany as their main everyday-day browser ?
Yep.
On ven, 2004-07-16 at 13:40 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 10:39 -0700, Denis Leroy wrote:
--- "Nathan G. Grennan" fedora-devel-list@cygnusx-1.org wrote:
On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 12:12 +0200, Leonard den Ottolander wrote:
Regarding Galeon, you might want to check out http://galeon.sourceforge.net and scan for the words "End of the
line".
Unless you want to do some serious maintenance/development yourself Galeon is as good as dead.
Galeon isn't dead. Galeon 1.2.x is dead. Galeon 1.3.x is still going strong. It IMHO is far better than Mozilla, Firefox, Konqueror, and Epiphany(PoS). It's biggest issue is that it isn't cross platform.
Out of curiosity, does anyone on this list actually uses epiphany as their main everyday-day browser ?
Yep.
Apart from a well-known not-real welsh user of-course (ducks)
Nicolas Mailhot wrote :
Out of curiosity, does anyone on this list actually uses epiphany as their main everyday-day browser ?
Yep.
Apart from a well-known not-real welsh user of-course (ducks)
Actually, I've been using it as my main browser for a while now too... it just does what I need, which is let me browse websites inside tabs an keep a few bookmarks handy.
Matthias
Hi Yanko,
Unless you want to do some serious maintenance/development yourself Galeon is as good as dead.
Huh? Somehow you missed all the steady activity on the 1.3.x gtk2/gnome2 branch which has regular releases, has reached a good level of maturity and will soon be promoted to a stable status.
Hardly dead or unmaintained....
My mistake. I wrongly interpreted the "It's also significant because I'm not planning to try and keep up with mozilla beyond 1.7." under http://galeon.sourceforge.net/news/index.php#82 to mean Galeon would be no longer maintained after Mozilla 1.7. Thought the developers had given up because of the emergence of Epiphany. I do understand now this remark is only about the 1.2 branch and Galeon is still alive. Sorry 'bout this misinformation.
Leonard.
epiphany_user++
- David On fre, 2004-07-16 at 10:39 -0700, Denis Leroy wrote:
--- "Nathan G. Grennan" fedora-devel-list@cygnusx-1.org wrote:
On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 12:12 +0200, Leonard den Ottolander wrote:
Regarding Galeon, you might want to check out http://galeon.sourceforge.net and scan for the words "End of the
line".
Unless you want to do some serious maintenance/development yourself Galeon is as good as dead.
Galeon isn't dead. Galeon 1.2.x is dead. Galeon 1.3.x is still going strong. It IMHO is far better than Mozilla, Firefox, Konqueror, and Epiphany(PoS). It's biggest issue is that it isn't cross platform.
Out of curiosity, does anyone on this list actually uses epiphany as their main everyday-day browser ?
Denis Leroy http://www.poolshark.org/
ons, 14,.07.2004 kl. 21.26 +0200, skrev Enrico Scholz:
yaneti@declera.com (Yanko Kaneti) writes:
Unless you want to do some serious maintenance/development yourself Galeon is as good as dead.
Huh? Somehow you missed all the steady activity on the 1.3.x gtk2/gnome2 branch which has regular releases, has reached a good level of maturity and will soon be promoted to a stable status. In addition to being nicely integrated in the GNOME2 environment and following the letter of the HIG it also has many of the nifty features that made 1.2.x popular.
Following the Gnome HIG is a death sentence for applications which are used regularly. Browsers are such a kind of applications... e.g.:
- HIG requires reuse of Gnome Proxy settings, but these are broken/non-existent since early days (or: where is the no_proxy
Sorry for the late reply. Just wanted to point out the existence of the gconf key system->http_proxy->ignore_hosts which gives you this functionality.
- lots of important settings can be done with regedit only;
And please use arguments rather than trying to scare people into believing that GConf == Windows Registry ;-)
Cheers Kjartan
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