= Proposed System Wide Change: Wayland = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Wayland
Change owner(s): Matthias Clasen and the desktop team <mclasen@redhat.com, desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org>
Port the GNOME desktop to Wayland.
== Detailed Description == GNOME is being ported to Wayland. In particular GNOME shell is changed to run as a Wayland compositor instead of an X11 compositor. Other components of GNOME that currently talk directly to the X server, such as gnome-settings- daemon or gnome-control-center, will be ported to corresponding Wayland interfaces. Many GTK+ applications will just work, using the existing Wayland backend. Applications that make use of X-specific APIs will be supported with the xwayland X server, which is started on demand. gdm will be changed to support both Wayland-based sessions and X-based sessions.
This change is targeted at F21. For F20, we aim for having an experimental GNOME shell Wayland compositor available, without necessarily having all the surrounding desktop infrastructure ported. To avoid destabilizing the X compositor, mutter will ship two separate libraries, and gnome-shell will ship two binaries that will link against them. Concretely, we plan to have a separate mutter-wayland package.
For more details, see this page [1].
== Scope == * Proposal owners: ** Port GNOME shell to be a Wayland compositor ** Implement Wayland equivalents for X11 APIs such as XRANDR, XI2 and accessibility features ** Port gnome-settings-daemon, gnome-control-center, gnome-desktop from X11 APIs to Wayland equivalents ** Enable gdm to launch Wayland sessions ** Complete the GTK+ Wayland backend to be on par with the X11 backend ** Package mutter-wayland as a separate package review [2] (DONE)
* Other developers: ** The X team needs to improve xwayland to be good enough for all X11 application - in practice this means we need X 1.16 ** The X team needs to cooperate with us in reimplementing some X11 APIs ** The X team needs to package libevdev (DONE) ** The X team needs to package libinput (DONE) ** It is not necessary for all spins or all desktop environments in Fedora to switch to Wayland at the same time (or ever)
* Release engineering: ** No tasks anticipated
* Policies and guidelines: ** Once we have a basic Wayland-based GNOME session, it would be good to encourage testers and packagers to test their applications under Wayland ** For applications that are known not to work under Wayland, we will need guidelines for how to ensure that they will transparently run under xwayland
[1] https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointNine/Features/WaylandSupport [2] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1007445 _______________________________________________ devel-announce mailing list devel-announce@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel-announce
On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 02:04:56PM +0200, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
This change is targeted at F21. For F20, we aim for having an experimental GNOME shell Wayland compositor available, without necessarily having all the surrounding desktop infrastructure ported. To avoid destabilizing the X compositor, mutter will ship two separate libraries, and gnome-shell will ship two binaries that will link against them. Concretely, we plan to have a separate mutter-wayland package.
Looks like this hasn't been updated since F20. Should probably give a status report of how these F20 changes went off. Last I looked, gnome-wayland was there, but not terribly functional.
--CJD
On Tue, 2014-04-29 at 14:04 +0200, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
GNOME is being ported to Wayland. In particular GNOME shell is changed to run as a Wayland compositor instead of an X11 compositor.
Does that mean that the shell will stop working on things like xrdp (which runs Xvnc behind the scenes)? Or is there some kind of wayland-on-X11 that gets started in that case? Or will mutter/shell get RDP protocol support (like weston) and make xrdp irrelevant?
On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:41 AM, Bojan Smojver bojan@rexursive.com wrote:
On Tue, 2014-04-29 at 14:04 +0200, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
GNOME is being ported to Wayland. In particular GNOME shell is changed to run as a Wayland compositor instead of an X11 compositor.
Does that mean that the shell will stop working on things like xrdp (which runs Xvnc behind the scenes)?
There are no plans to drop X afaik (atleast upstream X keeps working) so in your case you'd simply start an X session instead of a wayland session.
Hi!
Jaroslav Reznik wrote on 29.04.2014 14:04:
Port the GNOME desktop to Wayland.
Sorry, but what is actually proposed here? The above sentence for me doesn't make any sense(¹), as Gnome 3.12 is able to run on Wayland already (not perfectly, but it works afaik), so it was ported already I'd say.
Is this about integrating this work in Fedora? Or more porting work? Or even make Wayland the default in F21? The section "How To Test" sounds as if the later is the case, but it's not entirely clear to me.
CU knurd
(¹) This is not the first change proposal where the summary or the "Detailed Description" is more confusing then helpful to me (which makes me write this mail). It afaics would help a lot if those areas would use words that ordinary people (think of people that have only basic computer skills here) would be able to understand.
----- Original Message -----
Hi!
Jaroslav Reznik wrote on 29.04.2014 14:04:
Port the GNOME desktop to Wayland.
Sorry, but what is actually proposed here? The above sentence for me doesn't make any sense(¹), as Gnome 3.12 is able to run on Wayland already (not perfectly, but it works afaik), so it was ported already I'd say.
Is this about integrating this work in Fedora? Or more porting work? Or even make Wayland the default in F21? The section "How To Test" sounds as if the later is the case, but it's not entirely clear to me.
CU knurd
(¹) This is not the first change proposal where the summary or the "Detailed Description" is more confusing then helpful to me (which makes me write this mail). It afaics would help a lot if those areas would use words that ordinary people (think of people that have only basic computer skills here) would be able to understand.
I usually try to work with change owners on clear wording, sometimes it works better, sometimes worst but that's why we have announcements in place.
For wording - Changes are *not* supposed to be read by general public, it's internal planning tool and docs/marketing guys makes it consumable in the end. But generally I agree - better wording, better understanding.
Jaroslav
-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Hi!
Jaroslav Reznik wrote on 30.04.2014 16:27:
----- Original Message -----
Jaroslav Reznik wrote on 29.04.2014 14:04:
Port the GNOME desktop to Wayland.
Sorry, but what is actually proposed here? The above sentence for me doesn't make any sense(¹), as Gnome 3.12 is able to run on Wayland already (not perfectly, but it works afaik), so it was ported already I'd say.
Is this about integrating this work in Fedora? Or more porting work? Or even make Wayland the default in F21? The section "How To Test" sounds as if the later is the case, but it's not entirely clear to me.
(¹) This is not the first change proposal where the summary or the "Detailed Description" is more confusing then helpful to me (which makes me write this mail). It afaics would help a lot if those areas would use words that ordinary people (think of people that have only basic computer skills here) would be able to understand.
I usually try to work with change owners on clear wording,
I know. Many thanks for all your hard work.
[…]
For wording - Changes are *not* supposed to be read by general public,
But we know the public reads them, as those that write websites, blogs and sometimes even magazines articles will pick these things up -- especially in cases like this. Unclear words or statements thus could lead to confusion or bad press.
Side note: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
it's internal planning tool and docs/marketing guys makes it consumable in the end.
Thus FESCo, ordinary developers like me (we get these change propose mails for a reason) and docs/marketing should be able to properly understand it -- which afaics to often is not the case :-/
But generally I agree - better wording, better understanding.
+1
CU knurd
From Fedora Docs (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Wayland)
To avoid destabilizing the X compositor, mutter will ship two separate
libraries, and gnome-shell will ship two binaries that will link against them. Concretely, we plan to have a separate mutter-wayland package.
Mutter-Wayland in GNOME 3.13.1 is merged to Mutter, so how can have 2 different packages?
On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Thorsten Leemhuis fedora@leemhuis.infowrote:
Hi!
Jaroslav Reznik wrote on 30.04.2014 16:27:
----- Original Message -----
Jaroslav Reznik wrote on 29.04.2014 14:04:
Port the GNOME desktop to Wayland.
Sorry, but what is actually proposed here? The above sentence for me doesn't make any sense(¹), as Gnome 3.12 is able to run on Wayland already (not perfectly, but it works afaik), so it was ported already I'd say.
Is this about integrating this work in Fedora? Or more porting work? Or even make Wayland the default in F21? The section "How To Test" sounds as if the later is the case, but it's not entirely clear to me.
(¹) This is not the first change proposal where the summary or the "Detailed Description" is more confusing then helpful to me (which makes me write this mail). It afaics would help a lot if those areas would use words that ordinary people (think of people that have only basic computer skills here) would be able to understand.
I usually try to work with change owners on clear wording,
I know. Many thanks for all your hard work.
[…]
For wording - Changes are *not* supposed to be read by general public,
But we know the public reads them, as those that write websites, blogs and sometimes even magazines articles will pick these things up -- especially in cases like this. Unclear words or statements thus could lead to confusion or bad press.
Side note: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
it's internal planning tool and docs/marketing guys makes it consumable in the end.
Thus FESCo, ordinary developers like me (we get these change propose mails for a reason) and docs/marketing should be able to properly understand it -- which afaics to often is not the case :-/
But generally I agree - better wording, better understanding.
+1
CU knurd -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Hi
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 9:27 AM, alex diavatis wrote:
From Fedora Docs (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Wayland)
To avoid destabilizing the X compositor, mutter will ship two separate
libraries, and gnome-shell will ship two binaries that will link against them. Concretely, we plan to have a separate mutter-wayland package.
Mutter-Wayland in GNOME 3.13.1 is merged to Mutter, so how can have 2 different packages?
Because Fedora 21 branch has GNOME 3.12
Rahul
Am 03.05.2014 15:51, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 9:27 AM, alex diavatis wrote:
From Fedora Docs (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Wayland) >To avoid destabilizing the X compositor, mutter will ship two separate libraries, and gnome-shell will ship two binaries that will link against them. Concretely, we plan to have a separate mutter-wayland package. Mutter-Wayland in GNOME 3.13.1 is merged to Mutter, so how can have 2 different packages?Because Fedora 21 branch has GNOME 3.12
says who?
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=514458
* Thu May 01 2014 Kalev Lember kalevlember@gmail.com - 3.13.1-2 - Obsolete mutter-wayland * Wed Apr 30 2014 Florian Müllner fmuellner@redhat.com - 3.13.1-1 - Update to 3.13.1
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=514690
* Fri May 02 2014 Kalev Lember kalevlember@gmail.com - 3.13.1-1 - Update to 3.13.1
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 03.05.2014 15:51, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 9:27 AM, alex diavatis wrote:
From Fedora Docs (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Wayland) >To avoid destabilizing the X compositor, mutter will ship two separate libraries, and gnome-shell will ship two binaries that will link against them. Concretely, we plan to have a separate mutter-wayland package. Mutter-Wayland in GNOME 3.13.1 is merged to Mutter, so how can have 2 different packages?Because Fedora 21 branch has GNOME 3.12
says who? [...]
The whole confusion is because the feature was initially written for 3.12 but then the whole .next thing happened. In short the text needs to be updated.
drago01,
After upgrading Rawhide today, the Wayland session (/usr/share/wayland-sessions) vanished. How do you start Gnome On Wayland on Rawhide?
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 5:01 PM, drago01 drago01@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 03.05.2014 15:51, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 9:27 AM, alex diavatis wrote:
From Fedora Docs (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Wayland) >To avoid destabilizing the X compositor, mutter will ship twoseparate libraries, and gnome-shell will ship two binaries that will link against them. Concretely, we plan to have a separate mutter-wayland package.
Mutter-Wayland in GNOME 3.13.1 is merged to Mutter, so how can have2 different packages?
Because Fedora 21 branch has GNOME 3.12
says who? [...]
The whole confusion is because the feature was initially written for 3.12 but then the whole .next thing happened. In short the text needs to be updated. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
After upgrading Rawhide today, the Wayland session
(/usr/share/wayland-sessions) vanished.
How do you start Gnome On Wayland on Rawhide?
I know how to start a Gnome Wayland session, but I mean why isn't on GDM by default.
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 5:29 PM, alex diavatis alexis.diavatis@gmail.comwrote:
drago01,
After upgrading Rawhide today, the Wayland session (/usr/share/wayland-sessions) vanished. How do you start Gnome On Wayland on Rawhide?
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 5:01 PM, drago01 drago01@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 03.05.2014 15:51, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 9:27 AM, alex diavatis wrote:
From Fedora Docs (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Wayland) >To avoid destabilizing the X compositor, mutter will ship twoseparate libraries, and gnome-shell will ship two binaries that will link against them. Concretely, we plan to have a separate mutter-wayland package.
Mutter-Wayland in GNOME 3.13.1 is merged to Mutter, so how canhave 2 different packages?
Because Fedora 21 branch has GNOME 3.12
says who? [...]
The whole confusion is because the feature was initially written for 3.12 but then the whole .next thing happened. In short the text needs to be updated. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 4:29 PM, alex diavatis alexis.diavatis@gmail.com wrote:
drago01,
After upgrading Rawhide today, the Wayland session (/usr/share/wayland-sessions) vanished. How do you start Gnome On Wayland on Rawhide?
This is in a sub package now you have to install gnome-session-wayland-session
This is in a sub package now you have to install
gnome-session-wayland-session
Thanks!
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 5:41 PM, drago01 drago01@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 4:29 PM, alex diavatis alexis.diavatis@gmail.com wrote:
drago01,
After upgrading Rawhide today, the Wayland session (/usr/share/wayland-sessions) vanished. How do you start Gnome On Wayland on Rawhide?
This is in a sub package now you have to install gnome-session-wayland-session -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
----- Original Message -----
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 03.05.2014 15:51, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 9:27 AM, alex diavatis wrote:
From Fedora Docs (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Wayland) >To avoid destabilizing the X compositor, mutter will ship two >separate libraries, and gnome-shell will ship two binaries that will >link against them. Concretely, we plan to have a separate >mutter-wayland package. Mutter-Wayland in GNOME 3.13.1 is merged to Mutter, so how can have 2 different packages?Because Fedora 21 branch has GNOME 3.12
says who? [...]
The whole confusion is because the feature was initially written for 3.12 but then the whole .next thing happened. In short the text needs to be updated.
Matthias updated it, I asked him but probably it needs more updates.
Jaroslav
-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
On Mon, 2014-05-05 at 03:59 -0400, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
The whole confusion is because the feature was initially written for 3.12 but then the whole .next thing happened. In short the text needs to be updated.
Matthias updated it, I asked him but probably it needs more updates.
Sorry, I didn't pay much attention to Fedora last week. I'll do better this week.
Indeed, the feature page made much more sense when it was originally written, before 3.10. As has been pointed out, we've made considerable progress in porting to Wayland already. But, the port is not 100% complete yet. I'll try to reword the feature page to emphasize the completion aspect.
What we are aiming for in F21 is to have the Wayland session ready for day-to-day use without major regressions.
On Wed, 2014-04-30 at 16:05 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote:
Is this about integrating this work in Fedora? Or more porting work? Or even make Wayland the default in F21? The section "How To Test" sounds as if the later is the case, but it's not entirely clear to me.
I've tried to clarify the detailed description a bit, but I'm afraid it is still not great. It might be better to just strip all mention of F20 from the feature.
Whether to switch the default or not depends on whether we manage to complete the port without user-visible regressions in time for F21. That is the goal, we'll see if we get there this time.
devel@lists.stg.fedoraproject.org
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alex diavatis -
Bojan Smojver -
Casey Dahlin -
drago01 -
Jaroslav Reznik -
Matthias Clasen -
Rahul Sundaram -
Reindl Harald -
Thorsten Leemhuis