Hi! I've been working in a project called "Hermes" (For more information refer to: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Hermes) The idea is to build a Feed Parser customizable by the user that notifies when there are important news... As an additional feature I wanted to integrate a FEDORA SEARCH BOX, so I tought I might use the one that's in http://start.fedoraproject.org/ But I asked some users and I tried it discovering that that search box was a normal, common Google's Search Box.
In order to provide a "better information service" for the user, I tought that building a Fedora's Custom Search Engine based on Google might be useful in both ways to HERMES and the http://start.fedoraproject.org/ webpage, so I built one.
I called it the "Fedora's Engine" and is built over Google's CSE Technology, it's multilanguage, UTF-8 encoded and it has two options: "Search the Whole web making emphasis in some sites" or "Search the Whole web"
The first option makes a search consult all along the web but it make emphasis in these sites:
http://goo.gl/cRfP (Click to see the list)
The second option give the same results as if you're searching on Google
The Search Engine has the "autofill" option enabled and it's fedora branded, as you may see I included all the Fedora relevant sites so this engine is a fully fedora search engine that we can use in the Hermes Project and also in the http://start.fedoraproject.org/ webpage.
The code is right here: http://fpaste.org/DmBz/
You can preview the working engine here:* *http://tinyurl.com/fedorasengine
And If you want to Download the ".html" file with the code, it's right here: http://ubuntuone.com/p/E04/
Hope you find this idea useful :) * * * *
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Manuel Escudero Jmlevick@gmail.com wrote:
Hi! I've been working in a project called "Hermes" (For more information refer to: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Hermes) The idea is to build a Feed Parser customizable by the user that notifies when there are important news... As an additional feature I wanted to integrate a FEDORA SEARCH BOX, so I tought I might use the one that's in http://start.fedoraproject.org/%C2%A0But I asked some users and I tried it discovering that that search box was a normal, common Google's Search Box. In order to provide a "better information service" for the user, I tought that building a Fedora's Custom Search Engine based on Google might be useful in both ways to HERMES and the http://start.fedoraproject.org/ webpage, so I built one. I called it the "Fedora's Engine" and is built over Google's CSE Technology, it's multilanguage, UTF-8 encoded and it has two options: "Search the Whole web making emphasis in some sites" or "Search the Whole web" The first option makes a search consult all along the web but it make emphasis in these sites: http://goo.gl/cRfP (Click to see the list) The second option give the same results as if you're searching on Google The Search Engine has the "autofill" option enabled and it's fedora branded, as you may see I included all the Fedora relevant sites so this engine is a fully fedora search engine that we can use in the Hermes Project and also in the http://start.fedoraproject.org/ webpage. The code is right here: http://fpaste.org/DmBz/ You can preview the working engine here: http://tinyurl.com/fedorasengine And If you want to Download the ".html" file with the code, it's right here: http://ubuntuone.com/p/E04/ Hope you find this idea useful :)
I just tried it. *Very* nice.
2010/8/28 Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at
Thomas Janssen wrote:
I just tried it. *Very* nice.
You DO realize that this stuff is just Google with some options and that it is completely proprietary and out of our control?
Kevin Kofler-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
I think it's necessary... And is not propietary, the code is out there for anyone to play with it, the real owner is fedora :)
Manuel Escudero wrote:
I think it's necessary...
I think that 1. it's not necessary or useful and 2. it may well be a violation of Fedora's trademark guidelines.
And is not propietary, the code is out there for anyone to play with it, the real owner is fedora :)
Huh? This code runs on Google's servers (it even has a google.com URL, which you tried to mask using TinyURL) and it uses Google's top secret search engine technology for which the code is definitely NOT "out there for anyone to play with".
Kevin Kofler
2010/8/29 Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at
Manuel Escudero wrote:
I think it's necessary...
I think that 1. it's not necessary or useful and 2. it may well be a violation of Fedora's trademark guidelines.
And is not propietary, the code is out there for anyone to play with it, the real owner is fedora :)
Huh? This code runs on Google's servers (it even has a google.com URL, which you tried to mask using TinyURL) and it uses Google's top secret search engine technology for which the code is definitely NOT "out there for anyone to play with".
Kevin Kofler-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
1) We're already using a GOOGLE SEARCH BOX!! in http://start.fedoraproject.org/ ¿Do you have the code for this one? NO. And Fedora Project is using it. I'm sharing a "Fedora Solution" an applied search engine for the community. and I can add as many collaborators as I want, I can share my code, I can Modify it, it's more "opensource" that the one that we're already using...
2) I'm not masking anything, I'm just making a shorther link XD XD XD, That's just the prewiew page of the search engine, not the official one.. you can built a new site and put the search engine there, as I did with the first one I built: http://tinyurl.com/gyster
3) Just a question: at least, ¿had you tried fedora's engine? XD
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Manuel Escudero Jmlevick@gmail.com wrote:
- We're already using a GOOGLE SEARCH BOX!! in
http://start.fedoraproject.org/ ¿Do you have the code for this one? NO. And Fedora Project is using it. I'm sharing a "Fedora Solution" an applied search engine for the community. and I can add as many collaborators as I want, I can share my code, I can Modify it, it's more "opensource" that the one that we're already using...
We wish we weren't and we want to learn from our mistakes rather than repeat them. In the case of the start page I believe it was a concession combined with the hope that it would be replaced with a free solution in the future. It at the very least should not used as a shining example of the way Fedora does things.
John
We wish we weren't and we want to learn from our mistakes rather than repeat them. In the case of the start page I believe it was a concession combined with the hope that it would be replaced with a free solution in the future. It at the very least should not used as a shining example of the way Fedora does things.
Is Google really that bad or are some people being a bit too principled? Couldn't we think of the market leader of free-as-in-beer search engines as a commodity and just use it while it's free? I don't fret about running my computer on open source electricity.
I think anyone who shudders at the thought of supporting Google by using their search should be condemned to use something that behaves like the RH's bugzilla search for the rest of their career... :)
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Camilo Mesias wrote:
We wish we weren't and we want to learn from our mistakes rather than repeat them. In the case of the start page I believe it was a concession combined with the hope that it would be replaced with a free solution in the future. It at the very least should not used as a shining example of the way Fedora does things.
Is Google really that bad or are some people being a bit too principled? Couldn't we think of the market leader of free-as-in-beer search engines as a commodity and just use it while it's free? I don't fret about running my computer on open source electricity.
I think anyone who shudders at the thought of supporting Google by using their search should be condemned to use something that behaves like the RH's bugzilla search for the rest of their career... :)
We have a free software policy, while we continue to revise it, google's search engine is clearly against that policy:
http://infrastructure.fedoraproject.org/csi/free-software-policy/en-US/html-...
-Mike
2010/8/29 Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Camilo Mesias wrote:
We wish we weren't and we want to learn from our mistakes rather than repeat them. In the case of the start page I believe it was a concession combined with the hope that it would be replaced with a free solution in the future. It at the very least should not used as a shining example of the way Fedora does things.
Is Google really that bad or are some people being a bit too principled? Couldn't we think of the market leader of free-as-in-beer search engines as a commodity and just use it while it's free? I don't fret about running my computer on open source electricity.
I think anyone who shudders at the thought of supporting Google by using their search should be condemned to use something that behaves like the RH's bugzilla search for the rest of their career... :)
We have a free software policy, while we continue to revise it, google's search engine is clearly against that policy:
http://infrastructure.fedoraproject.org/csi/free-software-policy/en-US/html-...
-Mike-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN... http://start.fedoraproject.org/ is using a Google Search Box... YOU DON'T HAVE THE CODE TO PLAY WITH IT OR ANYTHING... With "Fedora's engine" I'm giving you the chance of having something more "opensource" and also more specific and useful for the fedora users...
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Manuel Escudero Jmlevick@gmail.com wrote:
AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN... http://start.fedoraproject.org/ is using a Google Search Box... YOU DON'T HAVE THE CODE TO PLAY WITH IT OR ANYTHING... With "Fedora's engine" I'm giving you the chance of having something more "opensource" and also more specific and useful for the fedora users...
I think McGrath has already mentioned that the current start page is only in because of its age. I am not sure how utilizing Google Search makes anything more open source. Its just using a web service.
2010/8/29 Arthur Pemberton pemboa@gmail.com
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Manuel Escudero Jmlevick@gmail.com wrote:
AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN... http://start.fedoraproject.org/ is using a Google Search Box... YOU DON'T HAVE THE CODE TO PLAY WITH IT OR
ANYTHING...
With "Fedora's engine" I'm giving you the chance of having something more "opensource" and also more specific and useful for the fedora users...
I think McGrath has already mentioned that the current start page is only in because of its age. I am not sure how utilizing Google Search makes anything more open source. Its just using a web service.
-- Fedora 13 (www.pembo13.com) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Well, I tought that if you're using a GoogleBox, maybe having a customizable Google box will be useful and interesting because we can code it as we want... Have any of you used Fedora's engine?
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 15:07:51 -0500 Manuel Escudero Jmlevick@gmail.com wrote:
2010/8/29 Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com
...snip...
We have a free software policy, while we continue to revise it, google's search engine is clearly against that policy:
http://infrastructure.fedoraproject.org/csi/free-software-policy/en-US/html-...
AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN... http://start.fedoraproject.org/ is using a Google Search Box... YOU DON'T HAVE THE CODE TO PLAY WITH IT OR ANYTHING... With "Fedora's engine" I'm giving you the chance of having something more "opensource" and also more specific and useful for the fedora users...
I appreciate that you are working up ideas here to improve things. :) Please do keep that up.
However, as others have pointed out, the only reason the start page is using google right now is a old historical accident. We should change it.
There was a thread on the advisory board list not long back about doing that... changing it to the front page of fedoraproject.org or some kind of fedora news site. I think exploring those directions would be more productive. Perhaps the websites team could weigh in on what kinds of things would be better than what we have now?
I would like to see things like:
- Information on how to join fedora. - Info on how to get help with your fedora install. - Important news in the fedora world - Perhaps a view of the current planet feed or something?
I don't think a search engine is that usefull as most browsers have a search function, and a boring search engine box will make most people just change the page to something they use more.
All just my 2c worth.
kevin
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
However, as others have pointed out, the only reason the start page is using google right now is a old historical accident. We should change it.
There was a thread on the advisory board list not long back about doing that... changing it to the front page of fedoraproject.org or some kind of fedora news site.
Yes. The Board has discussed this several times, and the consensus is to work with the marketing team to try to come up with something that is more useful than the current start page.
I think exploring those directions would be more productive. Perhaps the websites team could weigh in on what kinds of things would be better than what we have now?
I would like to see things like:
- Information on how to join fedora.
- Info on how to get help with your fedora install.
- Important news in the fedora world
- Perhaps a view of the current planet feed or something?
Those are the exact kinds of things we were discussing.
-- Jared Smith Fedora Project Leader
On Sun, 2010-08-29 at 15:07 -0500, Manuel Escudero wrote:
AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN... http://start.fedoraproject.org/ is using a Google Search Box... YOU DON'T HAVE THE CODE TO PLAY WITH IT OR ANYTHING... With "Fedora's engine" I'm giving you the chance of having something more "opensource"
Passing additional configuration to the Google search does not make the whole any more "open source" (or less).
and also more specific and useful for the fedora users...
I'll buy that.
But there's no point in improving the Google search on http://start.fedoraproject.org if it is going to be replaced anyway with something that complies with the free software policy.
2010/8/29 Matt McCutchen matt@mattmccutchen.net
On Sun, 2010-08-29 at 15:07 -0500, Manuel Escudero wrote:
AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN... http://start.fedoraproject.org/ is using a Google Search Box... YOU DON'T HAVE THE CODE TO PLAY WITH IT OR ANYTHING... With "Fedora's engine" I'm giving you the chance of having something more "opensource"
Passing additional configuration to the Google search does not make the whole any more "open source" (or less).
and also more specific and useful for the fedora users...
I'll buy that.
But there's no point in improving the Google search on http://start.fedoraproject.org if it is going to be replaced anyway with something that complies with the free software policy.
-- Matt
-- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
I wanna see the day when that box get replaced... This is the problem with linux communities most users talk and just few ones work to do better things. Anyway, good luck with everything...
(I thought I posted something like this earlier; maybe it was a private reply by mistake)
Camilo Mesias camilo@mesias.co.uk wrote:
Is Google really that bad or are some people being a bit too principled? Couldn't we think of the market leader of free-as-in-beer search engines as a commodity and just use it while it's free?
I've found Duck Duck Go[1]'s results to have a much higher quality than Google's. Google has a low signal:noise ratio for the kinds of searches I do these days.
I don't fret about running my computer on open source electricity.
Electricity isn't something you can take, modify, remix, and then redistribute and is therefore out-of-scope for the Free Software definition.
I think anyone who shudders at the thought of supporting Google by using their search should be condemned to use something that behaves like the RH's bugzilla search for the rest of their career... :)
DDG also has a sensible privacy policy (no logs kept (at least that's the claim)), all https accessible, https results if possible (Wikipedia), topic searches (!haskell, !python, etc.), and the One-Click Box. The author also posts some code about how things are done on his blog every now and then. The category selection[2] is also very nice. Also, DDG will punt to Google if it doesn't have anything or few results.
I think the search engine field will, more than likely, be dominated by closed source since other than the code it's all how much metal you can afford to put beind the url. Even if I'm wrong in the long run (and I hope I am), we can choose the least bad choice.
--Ben
[1]https://duckduckgo.com/ [2]https://duckduckgo.com/?q=eclipse
Just to clear a few things up and to simplify things a little for those that may have just entered the discussion.
Google Search is not open-source. Yes, sure you can use and access Google Search freely and implement it into your own site code, but all the Google Search code and it's working functions remains on Google's servers and all the searching is done via Google's servers. By including Google Search into your own site, in this case x-Fedora.org-x, you are simply using Google Search via linking on your site. Think hyperlinking, nothing more.
Google Search source code is not open-source and I don't have a problem with that and I think that the policy guidelines for which the Fedora/Red Hat Development Community abides should be revised/relaxed slightly to highlight this. But that's not for me to decide.
It's a tough situation as there are free and open-source web search tools that we could include into Fedora, but it's not going to be for web search and only for internal Fedora server searching. Hence why I believe the policy guidelines should be revised, because there's is simply no free and open source web search engine like Google/Yahoo and Bing Search. Let's hope this changes in the future.
Regards
devel@lists.stg.fedoraproject.org
-
Arthur Pemberton -
Ben Boeckel -
Camilo Mesias -
Chris Jones -
inode0 -
Jared K. Smith -
Kevin Fenzi -
Kevin Kofler -
Manuel Escudero -
Matt McCutchen -
Mike McGrath -
Thomas Janssen