docs March 2007

docs@lists.stg.fedoraproject.org

32 participants
70 discussions

Re: DUG Review
by Rahul Sundaram 21 Mar '07

21 Mar '07

Timothy Murphy wrote: > On Tue 20 Mar 2007, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Want a more spicy "review"? >> >> http://beranger.org/index.php?article=2452 > > I complete agree with the complaint in this review > that the DUG is excessively Gnome-centric. > > I asked some time ago about a problem I had > following some instructions in the DUG, > and was told that the assumption was that > the reader was running Gnome rather than KDE. > > It seems to me pretty silly to start by discarding > half (or more) of one's audience. Complaining is only half the part though. The guide is GNOME centric because the volunteers who wrote it preferred to focus on the default environment and applications. If you want to you are welcome to contribute to a KDE specific equivalent. Rahul

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Network Configuration
by Nicolas A. Corrarello 20 Mar '07

20 Mar '07

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello Ppl. I was thinking to add to the Desktop user Guide a per provider "Connecting to Internet Chapter" It has to be localized, with each country brand to help starting users. I was thinking to write first a generic guide of: Using PPPOE Using DHCP Using a Fixed IP Address Using Wireless That someone from each country could localise, for example in Argentina: Using PPPOE (For ADSL, like Speedy(TM), Arnet(TM)) Using DHCP (For CableModem(TM), like Fibertel(TM), or Ciudad Internet Flash(TM)) Using a Fixed IP Adress (For you LAN, or major providers, like IPlan(TM), or Telmex(TM) Using Wireless Comments? NC -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF/+ue4UWy+d/Ik+4RAmXXAJ0W/8Osjpv6YIovGtITBZLTRDnpbQCeJzCU 0NPfkCa5ZT6KwxNiIr4dwac= =8Jux -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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DUG Review
by Paul W. Frields 20 Mar '07

20 Mar '07

http://distrocenter.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/03/13/1919208 Contributors to the DUG: 1. Read. 2. Cry/wail/gnash teeth. 3. Ingest. 4. Discuss. 5. Fix. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug

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Thai Documents
by Pittayakom Sa-ingtong 20 Mar '07

20 Mar '07

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Document in need for an editor
by Nicolas A. Corrarello 20 Mar '07

20 Mar '07

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello Everyone: Some of us have been working on the document http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/NetworkInstall and I think it is in need for an editor because its becoming really mature. Y.S. Nicolas Corrarello -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF/v9S4UWy+d/Ik+4RAgaBAKCU05K3a3xJVHpmQnBzFXV7oaZOCQCcD0// M4iRfsYjWkUR2PCFZrOxJpk= =1xRV -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Fedora Bounty for translations
by Dimitris Glezos 19 Mar '07

19 Mar '07

Hey all. I just written a proposal for a Google Summer of Code for "an upstream-compatible L10N platform for Fedora". http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraBounties#L10NPlatform Comments? Suggestions? Anyone experienced in Python thinking of taking it? GSoC pays around $4000 (€3000) for each successfully completed project plus $500 that go to the Fedora Project. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) --

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moving to docs.fedoraproject.org
by Karsten Wade 19 Mar '07

19 Mar '07

We are in the process of moving our documentation publishing to http://docs.fedoraproject.org. To start, it is going to mirror what was formerly at fedora.redhat.com/docs. For the next few days/until the end of the coming week, publishing (such as new translations like the Installation Guide in Polish) is going to be ... sporadic. In a few days we'll ask for everyone to help us find Web site bugs and make things flow better. thx - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

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Web GUI
by Mike McGrath 18 Mar '07

18 Mar '07

For good or bad its here. I'm keeping it semi-enabled. What do you guys think? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MikeMcGrath?action=edit&editor=gui Basically append &editor=gui to whatever your editing. -Mike

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Re: fedora-docs-list Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
by Magnus Glantz 18 Mar '07

18 Mar '07

Karsten, Ooops, the username is 'Magnus Glantz', it was my alias that was 'magnusg' (which has now aswell been changed to 'Magnus Glantz'). :-) BG, //M > Message: 9 > Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:29:46 -0700 > From: Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com> > Subject: Re: fedora-docs-list Digest, Vol 37, Issue 15 > To: fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com > Message-ID: <1173842986.4220.47.camel(a)erato.phig.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 23:23 +0100, Magnus Glantz wrote: > > Karsten, > > > My Wiki username is: magnusg > > Magnus, > > A Wiki username is normally in the form of FirstnameLastname, such as > MagnusGlantz. This is a requirement/preference of the Wiki engine, and > we don't have any other implementation working. If you'll create a user > with the form FirstnameLastname, many of us can add you right away. > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project > Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 > ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ >

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IRC log FDSCo 18-Mar-2007 (summary to follow separately)
by Karsten Wade 18 Mar '07

18 Mar '07

SSIA 09:01 < quaid> <meeting> 09:01 < quaid> Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/MeetingAgenda 09:01 < quaid> :) 09:02 < stickster> Good $TIMEOFDAY, everyone 09:02 < stickster> First up: GSoC 09:02 < quaid> lots of new energy there this week :) 09:03 < couf> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode 09:03 < quaid> yep 09:03 < glezos> Quoting from 2 hours ago: 09:03 < glezos> KillerX I'm interested in applying for the docbook to PDF converter project :) 09:03 * quaid saw that confab 09:03 < stickster> Yup, may have a sucker^Wtaker 09:03 < glezos> KillerX So I'll whip up a proposal and get back to you then 09:03 < quaid> well, yeah, rather than back to us, its really, back to the proposal process via code.google.com 09:04 < glezos> quaid, how about crafting a proposal for L10N WUI? 09:04 < glezos> mmcgrath also thought it would be a good idea 09:04 < quaid> ok, but same question I have about timing. 09:04 < quaid> August seems pretty late 09:04 * quaid looks at Releases/8/Schedule 09:04 < stickster> Here's KillerX's web site: http://anant.wordpress.com/ 09:05 < quaid> see, the problem is ... 09:05 < quaid> if you go 6 mon. forward from current string freeze (which is tomorrow) 09:05 < quaid> that makes string freeze Sep. 09:05 < quaid> that is awfully close, isn't it? 09:06 < glezos> quaid, well, we can start with a WUI for statistics (fairly easy) and stage 2 could be the remotely-hosted-PO-thing 09:06 < stickster> quaid: We could raise that with RelEng and craft a time buffer into the next cycle 09:06 < stickster> Slips happen, and all 09:06 < couf> time buffer++ 09:07 < glezos> Do we have any other stuff we'd like to craft as GSoC proposals? 09:07 * stickster notes that string freeze will likely be Tuesday instead 09:07 < couf> so we've got 3 bounties which have something to do with docs 09:08 < glezos> For example, say, a Web frontend for DocBook+CVS in Python? 09:08 < glezos> Ie. port of http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/ to Python 09:08 < glezos> just throwing ideas here 09:08 * quaid doesn't want to port that one, but knows what you mean 09:08 < couf> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraBounties is the place 09:08 < quaid> yes, it is the place 09:09 < stickster> Once again, I think that hiding that in Plone code would be ideal 09:09 < stickster> Once again, I think that having Plone folks would be ideal++ 09:09 < glezos> stickster, well, port to Python/Plone then 09:09 < couf> aye Plone++ 09:09 < stickster> heh 09:10 * stickster still thinks we need some expert opinion on using ReST/docutils for easy writing and better portability to DocBook 09:10 < glezos> There are 800 positions for students.. I guess crafting proposals that will not certainly be used by us doesn't hurt that much 09:11 < stickster> Wow, that's a load of positions 09:12 < stickster> OK, so glezos, you want to draft a proposal then? Is there any time left for the students to see it and apply by deadline? 09:12 < stickster> < 1 week? 09:12 < quaid> six days 09:12 < quaid> I need to do the same for the Plone install 09:12 < quaid> does that count as a student project? 09:12 < glezos> dunno.. I could write one I guess 09:12 < stickster> Hmm 09:12 < quaid> i.e., there isn't much code in a Plone install 09:13 < stickster> right 09:13 < stickster> Plone module for interaction with SCM/DocBook though... 09:13 < stickster> Whether using ReST go-between or not... 09:13 < quaid> mspevack_out threw up a request for Plone help internally, and the best so far is a team that just wrangled an install, but they seem to be offering "answers to questions" v. actual task-doing. 09:14 < stickster> understood 09:14 < glezos> quaid, maybe dubbing it "Make Plone a publishing platform" and include stuff like the one stickster just mentioned 09:14 < quaid> ah, plone module, ok 09:14 < stickster> If you asked me what the scope of that work is, I couldn't begin to tell you. 09:15 < stickster> I want to get myself to some Plone training but don't see it happening any time soon. 09:15 < EvilBob> Morning All 09:15 < EvilBob> Sorry I over slept 09:16 < couf> we should get a Plone.org guy doing a GSoC for us :) 09:16 < stickster> Hi Bob 09:16 < EvilBob> GSoC, damaestro is interested in doing one 09:16 < couf> alas, the deadline is very very soon 09:16 < stickster> OK, before we get too off-track, maybe we should set the action items for this and move on 09:16 < EvilBob> A plone item would be right up his alley 09:17 < quaid> ok 09:17 < quaid> that might do it 09:17 < quaid> I'll write up the plone thing 09:17 < stickster> suggestion: Notify Anant to let him know where to send proposal 09:17 < quaid> glezos if you can post up a first pass at the l10n wui 09:18 < glezos> quaid, I think you have a clearer idea for it.. :) 09:18 < quaid> how did KillerX find us here and not find the Google page? 09:18 < glezos> I can expand on it 09:18 < quaid> glezos: oh :) 09:18 < quaid> ok 09:18 < stickster> no idea :-D 09:18 < quaid> I'll put up first passes at both, then 09:18 < glezos> quaid, thanks. 09:18 < couf> ok, who's mentoring or wants to help mentoring? 09:19 < glezos> I can mentor for L10N WUI 09:19 < quaid> looks like anant.wordpress.org has links to SoC site already, I reckon we don't need to contact him wit hthat 09:19 < couf> glezos: /me can co-mentor on that one 09:20 < glezos> how can we make sure the applicants indeed take it seriously and will walk it through? 09:20 < couf> basicly the money does it all :) 09:20 < stickster> quaid: Good point, /me needs to read more 09:21 < couf> anyone want to take the PDF conversion? 09:22 < stickster> I can't commit for any mentoring this summer, my schedule is more than spoken for at this point :-\ 09:22 < stickster> I'm happy to drop in and advise ad-hoc anytime though 09:22 < quaid> hmm 09:22 < stickster> "asst. mentor" 09:22 < quaid> I was looking to step back a bit and give others a chance to mentor 09:23 < quaid> maybe we can co-mentor on the Plone one and I'll catch all the slack 09:24 < stickster> Guys, we need to get quaid out of doing every task. I wish I could do more but I can't commit more time until probably around July. 09:24 < EvilBob> I am willing to co-mentor however It would not be right to Mentor Damaestro because of our other working relationship 09:24 < stickster> Oh, do you employ him on the side? Like $$$? 09:24 < stickster> or maybe just 1 $ :-D 09:24 < glezos> is there no chance any older FDSCo members to help out? 09:25 < quaid> we'll have to ask 09:25 < EvilBob> stickster: something like that 09:25 < quaid> we can proceed and work out the mentoring as we go, too 09:25 < couf> sure 09:25 < EvilBob> stickster: he is a resource in my business I will put it that way 09:25 < stickster> I see 09:26 < couf> Shall we move on? 09:26 < quaid> k 09:26 < glezos> I should mention that mmcgrath might be interested in co-mentoring the L10N WUI too (the multi-repository thing anyway). 09:27 < glezos> docs.fedoraproject.org 09:27 < glezos> quaid, any comments/updates? 09:28 -!- hers [n=chatzill(a)222.248.201.228] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/0000000000]"] 09:28 < quaid> you know ... 09:28 < stickster> Hmm, mmcgrath as mentor -- great way to ensure things are Done Right 09:28 < stickster> s/mentor/co-mentor/ 09:29 < quaid> I'm unclear, sorry, if when we tag LIVE in CVS which site it is going to 09:29 < quaid> I've asked mmcgrath but I haven't noticed his response :) 09:29 < stickster> quaid: I haven't tried it lately to see 09:29 < quaid> we need the LIVE tagging to affect docs.fp.o now 09:30 < quaid> so we can reorganize that side 09:30 < couf> iirc, it's still only going to f.r.c 09:30 < stickster> Does Mike know where that CVS=>Web glue is on f.r.c? 09:30 * quaid posted a change last week, looks 09:30 < quaid> he does 09:31 < glezos> I know it's pretty late, but I'd like once more to raise the issue of doing it under fp.org/docs/ 09:31 < quaid> ok, that change went to fr.c 09:31 < quaid> glezos: FI said it would be easier to handle a sub-domain 09:31 < quaid> and we want one URL, right? 09:31 < stickster> yup 09:31 < quaid> and there is an existing trend in the project to use name.fp.org 09:31 < couf> +1 09:32 < quaid> hosted.fp.org, cvs.fp.o, git.fp.org, etc. 09:32 < stickster> quaid: What was your change? 09:32 < stickster> nm 09:33 < quaid> http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/developers-guide/s1-ui-gnome-guidelines.html 09:33 < glezos> if plone comes, it will be under fp.org/. If we then decide to integrate docs in there, we'd do it at fp.org/docs/, right? 09:33 < quaid> wrapped HIG citetitle with a url 09:33 < quaid> glezos: nope 09:33 < quaid> glezos: that is our choice, right? 09:33 < glezos> quaid, ok.. I'm just trying to make sure we won't have to make redirects in the future. 09:34 < quaid> well, we likely want to redirect from /docs 09:34 < glezos> ok. 09:34 < couf> with Plone we could have fp.org/docs which collects links to docs.fp.org 09:34 < quaid> let's put it this way ... 09:34 < quaid> we can still debate this, if we want 09:34 < quaid> I'm not locked in anything 09:34 < quaid> and yes this is the best/last chance, I think 09:35 < stickster> But if FI has reasons why they want it docs.fp.o, argue it there 09:35 < quaid> mike said we can do it any way we want, but the sub-dmain was "easier" or "better" I disrecall which 09:35 < quaid> but it is up to us what we want 09:35 < stickster> I haven't observed us really caring one way or the other, so we yield to FI 09:36 < stickster> As long as Google leads readers to the good stuff 09:36 < glezos> quaid, I don't have a preference. Only to not have to change it in the future. 09:36 < stickster> We shouldn't have to, I would think. 09:36 < stickster> mod_rewrite makes everything OK, yes? 09:37 < glezos> stickster, well.. not exactly. Cookies might have a problem for subdomains for example. 09:37 < stickster> That only depends on our giving them out properly, though, right? 09:37 < glezos> My only reservation is that subdomains are usually totally separate systems or software. They serve completely different functionality. But sure, with mod_rewrites you can get it all done. 09:37 < EvilBob> ! 09:37 < stickster> Again, this is for an FI argument. As a Doc'er, I totally don't care. 09:38 < glezos> OK, let's move on. I don't want to delay discussions. I will talk it up with mmcgrath to make sure. 09:38 < EvilBob> I would suggest our plone work happen under fp.o 09:38 < EvilBob> use docs.fp.o for published xml results 09:39 < quaid> yet docs.fp.o is going to be a plone front-end 09:39 < quaid> that is, it will be a virtual folder or something, right? 09:39 < glezos> quaid, no idea. 09:40 < EvilBob> I would think that d.fp.o would be static only 09:40 < stickster> I disagree, I see GNOME using subdomains for working projects 09:40 < stickster> And they're using Plone AIUI 09:41 * glezos is OK with both ways. 09:42 < glezos> shall we move on? 09:42 < quaid> EvilBob: I think static is orthogonal in this case; yes static output, but it should be put in that location by plone via workflow 09:42 < quaid> well 09:42 < quaid> I guess I'm not done 09:42 < stickster> heh 09:42 < quaid> I want to get a "litmus test" here 09:42 < quaid> Red Hat IS 'recommends' that we just redirect from f.r.c/* to fp.org and let people find what they want from there 09:43 < quaid> this is because they maintain a >1000 line set of redirects around redhat.com and say it is crazy-making 09:43 < quaid> so, mmcgrath and I discussed and we recommend a mod_rewrite rule 09:43 < quaid> that will preserve the post / content and let us parse it on the Fedora side (so no hassle to RH IS any more) 09:44 < glezos> quaid, sounds rational. 09:44 < quaid> so, this is still in negotiation, afaict; since we don't get to tell them what to do but only ask, we can't be sure how things are going to land. 09:44 < quaid> so there is a chance it will be the first 09:44 < quaid> that is, all redirect to front page, start googlejuice from scratch, etc. 09:44 < EvilBob> NOTE: there are issues when using multiple domains and subdomains in plone 09:44 < quaid> my assumption is that this is bad from a user experience, but I want to hear from ya'll 09:45 < quaid> EvilBob: what about subdomains in one domain/. 09:45 < quaid> ? 09:45 < EvilBob> that is what I was trying to make clear and failed 09:45 < quaid> EvilBob: meaning, subs in one domain should be OK, but across multiple domains is crazy? 09:45 < EvilBob> quaid: each (sub)domain requires a swperate plone instance 09:46 < EvilBob> errr instance is the wrong word 09:46 < EvilBob> testing.fu.o is not the same plone site as fu.o for example 09:47 < stickster> Can't it be, if you mod_rewrite from Apache as the front end? 09:47 < glezos> Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for a software system to choke with subdomains.. That's why usually they are intended for different systems (bugzilla, cvs-frontend, web content). Heck, even web designers have problems (grabbing images with relative paths) 09:47 < EvilBob> each and every one of the unity sites are separate 09:48 < glezos> We can further discuss this on the mailing list CCed with -infrastructure. 09:49 < quaid> how a bout just on f-i-l? 09:49 < stickster> glezos++ 09:49 < glezos> quaid, ok 09:49 < stickster> Oops, I'm not on f-i-l 09:49 < quaid> since it's really a technical issue 09:49 < EvilBob> we have hacked together a system that shares the user accounts but the content is completely separate and you need to login when changing name space 09:49 < quaid> stickster: :D 09:49 < quaid> EvilBob: ok, great point, thanks 09:49 * stickster refuses to join another mailing list until he drops at least two 09:49 < stickster> :-d 09:49 < stickster> :-d 09:49 < quaid> stickster: i've got some suggestions ... :D 09:49 < stickster> aw, hell with it 09:49 < stickster> heh 09:49 < stickster> awright, trans update 09:50 < quaid> is that me? 09:50 * quaid guesses so 09:51 < couf> hmm no it's glezos :) 09:51 < quaid> oh, good 09:51 < quaid> except I guess I have something to report to him :) 09:51 < couf> then go on :) 09:51 < glezos> um 09:51 < glezos> well, I tried GNOME's Damned Lies interface 09:51 < quaid> on Friday i talked with mmcgrath and poelcat (John Poelstra); poelcat is now looking into the feasibility of him being a facilitator within Red hat for those parts 09:52 < glezos> Which seems to have future. I contacted it's maintainer and he said he's willing to help out in porting (it's already well written and supoprts modules etc) 09:52 < quaid> meaning we'd need to PM the Fedora side ourselves 09:52 < glezos> The second part of L10N WUI that quaid and I are thinking is make it possible to serve remotely-hosted POs (ie act as a SCM client) 09:53 < glezos> See: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/RFR/L10nCVSandUI 09:53 * EvilBob is away (phone) 09:53 < glezos> Sonar_Gal, if we find a student to investigate these two for GSoC we'd be perfect. 09:53 < couf> poor Sonar_Gal 09:53 < glezos> agr. So, So, *So* 09:54 < glezos> We could also write them as two different proposals, right? 09:55 < stickster> 11 min/me reads 09:55 < stickster> oops, I mean: 09:55 < stickster> me reads 09:56 < quaid> from what I was reporting, a different twist has come up that I think we should address/decide upon 09:56 < quaid> but I'm unclear if it is ours to decide :) 09:56 < quaid> so maybe a step back ... 09:56 < quaid> do we feel we have enough representation from all the involved communities? 09:56 < quaid> to form a short-term SIG so we can vote/decide on stuff. 09:57 < stickster> having couf and glezos here helps, but we should probably reach out for some more input, yes 09:57 < quaid> in that I don't think this is really FDSCo's to decide ... 09:57 < couf> hmm, good question, sig++ both involvment: not that much imo 09:57 < quaid> ok, so here is the ponderable ... 09:57 < couf> s/both/but 09:57 < quaid> poelcat is checking on a possible resource offer from the group that 'owns' elvis.rh.c internally 09:58 < quaid> not knowing yet what that means ... I want to figure out what parameters we have for accepting such help/. 09:58 < quaid> for example, here are two ways I could see help coming: 09:58 < quaid> i. Help comes to work within the community on a joint solution; sharing of resources; Fedora/RHEL model, etc. 09:59 < quaid> ii. Help comes to "fix" problems in elvis.rh.c, and keeps all their work and processes internal until they are ready for us to start testing externally 09:59 < quaid> would we want help in both of those cases? or only in i)? 09:59 < stickster> only i. 09:59 < couf> only i 10:00 < quaid> I share this feeling :) 10:00 < quaid> but ... 10:00 < quaid> the problem is I don't speak the 100+ languages of our trans community 10:00 < glezos> quaid, I'm for i too, and AFAICT, mspevack shares this opinion. 10:00 < quaid> and what if 80% of them want "big Daddy Red hat" to take care of this for them, and they don't care 10:01 < glezos> (ie bring Fedora-affected systems & processes to the community space) 10:01 < couf> hmm, I'm noticing a change of attitude towards this on the trans-list, people are stepping up 10:01 < quaid> I'm concerned that we are acting from a perceived opinion, that is, we perceive that the rest of the l10n community shares our opinion, when we can't directly know that because of lang and cultural differences 10:01 < couf> and are feeling things have to change 10:01 < glezos> quaid, I'll make that clear enough: 99% of the L10N community does translations for Fedora, not RHEL. 10:02 < quaid> yes, but does "vocal" == "majority"? 10:02 < quaid> glezos: :) 10:02 < couf> quaid: fair enough 10:02 < stickster> We want to avoid disenfranchising folks, especially since it could affect overall Fedora l10n 10:03 < stickster> But FOSS has always been about taking ownership/responsibility for doing things 10:03 < quaid> ok 10:03 < glezos> stickster, certainly. But we need to be able to do our jobs. We want to do much more than what elvis can provide and we are willing to do them quickly. 10:03 < stickster> We could take a better quality, lower drag poll, I suppose 10:03 < couf> the big problem is that not everyone is on the list, and looks at it 10:03 < quaid> right 10:03 < stickster> If people don't have to write an email to the list, we may get more responses. 10:03 < stickster> sure, there's that as ewll. 10:03 < stickster> s/ewll/well/ 10:03 < quaid> and the thing is ... the translators who work for RH are on many sub-lists and they could tell us, but what would they tell us? 10:04 * EvilBob is off the phone 10:04 < EvilBob> I need to run, buddy is broke down.... 10:04 < quaid> ok, I guess the point is not really moot 10:04 < quaid> EvilBob: cheers 10:04 < glezos> My goal for L10N WUI is for it to support upstream translations. If this works, then RH could use it for any project it likes. 10:04 < quaid> in that Fedora leadership doesn't want systems that happen behind doors for us to "benefit" from 10:05 < quaid> we have taken the lesser-quality-for-now because it is open stance 10:05 < quaid> glezos: +1 we could do this the right way, for sure 10:05 < stickster> We can attract more interest and participation by simply starting the gears turning 10:05 < quaid> ok, I just wanted to be sure we all agreed oon this direction, and my thinking was sound. 10:06 * stickster wants to make sure someone keeps in the back of their head that we would like to connect this, as well, to Plone in the far-flung future if at all possible 10:06 < glezos> Ideally, this shift towards the community space will benefit all of us. So, I see the best thing would be for RH L10N team to help materialize our vision, just like the Merge. 10:06 < quaid> glezos: I saw you wondering about "does scml10n need to sign the GPG" and I can't see any way around it 10:06 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KarstenWade/Drafts/CLAAcceptanceHierarchies#p… 10:06 < stickster> glezos: Right. The reason that has worked out so well is that people Just Did It. 10:06 < quaid> the proposal there is clear -- once in SCM, the risk is higher, etc. 10:07 < stickster> Extras is the biggest success story in Fedora 10:07 < couf> yeah certainly CLA for cvsl10n 10:07 < quaid> note that ... Fedora didn't do the best internal marketing job around the mere 10:07 < stickster> quaid: CLA++ 10:07 < quaid> merge 10:07 < glezos> quaid, right now they don't have to sign the CLA for i18n.redhat.com. 10:07 < quaid> and we are trying to avoid stepping in that bear trap 10:07 < quaid> glezos: yes, I know; they should have; IMNSHO that was a big mistake 10:07 < stickster> quaid: I'm not so sure that it was a bad job... but I don't see the internal lists. ;-) 10:07 < couf> glezos: CLA was concieved after i18n 10:08 < quaid> we are shipping lots of content we don't have a clear right to use, unless there is something in i18n I don't get 10:08 < stickster> There hasn't been much public grumbling, and what there was of it was mostly due to misunderstandings and people entrenching for no good reason. 10:08 < glezos> quaid, there is an alternative. Give the option through the WUI for a person to submit a translation and the language maintainer has to approve/commit it. 10:08 < quaid> glezos: sure 10:08 < quaid> glezos: that's like the Wiki model 10:08 < couf> QA is realy needed 10:09 < quaid> they still need to agree to something when submitting that is essentially the CLA :) 10:09 < quaid> that is, the WikiLicense is really the CLA + OPL 10:09 < glezos> OK. Once we have a prototype WUI we can figure more complex stuff then. 10:09 < stickster> This all comes back to the click-through, waiting on Legal. 10:09 < quaid> I think it is a big mistake to ever debate if a contribution "should" be under the CLA 10:10 < quaid> when an Ambassador makes a speach, it's a contribution, needs to be covered, etc. 10:10 < quaid> stickster: working on that one :) 10:10 < quaid> my "PlainEnglishCLA" did offend, which I was afraid of :), and got justly shot-down 10:10 < glezos> quaid, let's just say that the actual committer takes responsibility for the submitted contributions. I think these are slightly minor issues. 10:10 < stickster> Careful with extending the license agreement to vocal speech 10:10 * quaid had called it "HumanSpeakCLA" but changed that to not offend the lawyers 10:11 < glezos> lol 10:11 < quaid> glezos: good point, like bugzilla; minor point 10:11 < stickster> I think you'd find a lot of trouble in that. If it's a written presentation that's held somewhere or committed to paper, sure... but speech is not generally licensed :-) 10:11 < quaid> stickster: yes, I mean, written and put on wiki 10:11 < quaid> or whatever 10:11 < stickster> heh 10:11 < stickster> ok, +1 that 10:11 < quaid> I just mean, don't try to classify what is or is not a contribution 10:11 < couf> :) 10:12 < stickster> right 10:12 < quaid> rather classify what is the risk in taking that contribution 10:12 < stickster> If it goes in, it has to be covered, period. 10:12 < stickster> If we hold on to it, it has to be covered. 10:12 < quaid> and applyu CLA difficulties by risk levels 10:12 < quaid> submit via bugzilla or ml as a patch, low risk, etc. 10:12 < quaid> ok, we've beaten on this one enough? 10:13 < glezos> guess so 10:13 < quaid> I'll let you know what poelcat says 10:13 < quaid> but we're essentially on our own on the Fedora side 10:13 < couf> yay 10:13 < quaid> and we're seeking clarity on what "don't break our system" means so we can achieve or reject that 10:14 < stickster> OK, so back to agenda then... wiki reorg ==> couf 10:14 < stickster> yes? 10:14 < couf> all right 10:14 < couf> everyone has seen it, and approved right? 10:15 < couf> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-March/msg00039.html 10:16 < stickster> Yes, with comments as posted earlier 10:16 < couf> I'm just looking for the best way to get this started 10:16 * quaid admits to not having dived into that one 10:16 < couf> i) get an wiki from FI (RFR) 10:16 < glezos> couf, write a wiki page with the structure as bullets? 10:17 < couf> ii) personal wiki-userspace 10:17 < couf> iii) just dive in 10:17 < glezos> I'd vote for iii) 10:17 < stickster> iii) 10:18 < quaid> fine with me 10:18 < stickster> couf: See how much you can do by only reorganizing, and cutting, pages 10:18 < stickster> Rather than writing *more* 10:18 < couf> right on, I'm planning on doing this in the next two weeks 10:18 < couf> stickster: I'm going for less rather than more 10:19 < stickster> We can always hand-craft later as needed 10:19 < quaid> yes, odds are, what we need is there, and needs to be trimmed and combined 10:19 < stickster> hoo-rah 10:20 < stickster> couf: Anything else you need before starting? 10:20 < couf> hmm, not really, I'm gonna setup a template this week 10:20 < quaid> ref. Docs/Drafts => DocsProject/Drafts ... I think we want to keep those in Docs/ because we want people to 'beta test' them 10:21 < stickster> Yeah, I think someone mentioned that on the list... hmmm, lemmesee 10:21 < couf> yeah I got that one :) 10:21 < quaid> ok, good 10:21 * quaid missed that, just read through the thread 10:21 < stickster> coo' 10:21 < quaid> otherwise it sounds great to me, and I'll help wherever I can as we proceed 10:22 * stickster notes, moving up on 90 minutes, meeting red alert! 10:22 < couf> okay guys, in two weeks the project-wiki will be totaly different :) 10:22 < couf> cool 10:22 < couf> let's move on then :) 10:22 < stickster> OK, PDF 10:22 < couf> Last item on list is PDF 10:23 < glezos> next subject: PDF guides. Should we bother going after them *now* or wait for F7 to make them through the tolchain? 10:23 < stickster> I would rather do this right (and leverage GSoC) than do it twice 10:24 < glezos> stickster, we could get F7 IG in PDF with cups-pdf with a couple of clicks.. 10:24 * stickster has yet to see a stunning argument for PDF production other than allowing people to print something prettier than HTML, which isn't necessarily in our interests... 10:24 * glezos thinks PDFs will increase the popularity of our Docs 10:24 < stickster> We can allow users to do this now with a print CSS and save the trouble 10:25 < glezos> people just save it on their Desktops for future reference for example... 10:25 < stickster> In the web includes: "Print me!" 10:25 < stickster> For future reference when? After they install? 10:25 < stickster> We want people to come back for the latest version 10:25 < quaid> it's all about different styles 10:25 < stickster> yeah, I'm not opposed to PDF at all, just for the record 10:25 < quaid> enough people like the PDF style for a guide, but honestly its hard to tell how much it matters 10:26 < glezos> I guess people just don't know that some HTML is very nicely printable 10:26 < stickster> I just think having to keep up with republishing manually is dreary 10:26 < stickster> glezos: the "Print Me" button can take care of that. 10:26 < couf> right, we should just have the "print me" link on the page and let users do it 10:27 * stickster has printed several articles from RHM for example, to distribute to bosses and peers 10:27 < quaid> that would be worth rebuilding docs for, yes 10:27 < stickster> Well, the print me button should appear courtesy of SSI's and not in our publishing process, IYAM 10:27 < quaid> since some of them aren't even buildable but need porting to the new Makefile/tools 10:28 < couf> and if anyone comes up with *the* solution to PDF production, we'll handle it then 10:28 < glezos> anyway. just thinking that people do like PDFs, not sure for what reasons though... probably the self-packed one-file-contains-everything idea 10:28 < stickster> Oh I see, you mean, "Wow, I'd even fix <XYZ> doc if it got that button slapped on it" 10:29 < stickster> For our *real* PDF's, I really want an actual to-die-for style, including stylish page markings and sidebars from admonitions. 10:29 < couf> stickster++ 10:29 < glezos> stickster+++ 10:29 * couf has to bail 10:29 < glezos> we've even found a name for the style... to-die-for.xsl 10:30 < couf> see ya (buffer rolling) 10:30 -!- couf is now known as couf_away 10:30 < stickster> heh 10:30 < stickster> bye couf 10:31 < glezos> Haven't received any emails on this: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-March/msg00139.html 10:31 < quaid> so, can we do the SSI version? 10:31 < stickster> quaid: that depends on how we publish to docs.fp.o 10:31 < quaid> stickster: today it is the same as f.r.c 10:31 < stickster> Right now, there's bare PHP sitting up there with nothing backing it up 10:31 < quaid> and is likely to stay that way for a while 10:32 < stickster> So we certainly can move the includes there as well, and restyle if necessary 10:32 < stickster> Is PHP running on that host? And is it likely to? 10:32 < stickster> (if not) 10:33 < stickster> glezos: Give it a couple days, weekend work is sketchy 10:33 < quaid> I don't know how he has it set up 10:33 < stickster> me neither 10:33 < quaid> well, presumably like before 10:34 < quaid> PHP builds static pages on the backend 10:34 < quaid> I can include the SSI wherever we want 10:34 < stickster> Yeah, I think we need the images up there too 10:34 < stickster> And the CSS for now, so we can monkey with it 10:35 < stickster> Wait... where will we access all that? 10:35 < quaid> via cvs 10:35 < stickster> Oh, I guess if he just hooks those in from the Web module in CVS the same way, should be fine 10:35 < stickster> jinx 10:35 < quaid> yep, and I'm ready to reorganize to chop out all the non-docs from the Nav 10:35 < stickster> OK, may have just missed those pieces then 10:35 < stickster> I can help too 10:35 < quaid> cool 10:36 < stickster> The "Print Me" shouldn't be too hard 10:36 < quaid> let's first get the word that pub of LIVE is on docs.fp.o, which it appears it is not 10:36 < stickster> We'll add a publishing bit for html-nochunks to fit into, that would be the best printable I would think 10:36 < glezos> CSS can do very neat things.. unfortunately not everything, but OK. 10:37 < mmcgrath> quaid: I'll set that up today (the whole live publish) 10:38 < glezos> should we publish the meeting log? Or probably trancuate it leaving only the TODO stuff (as reminders for next week)? 10:39 < stickster> Marvelous Mike makes a miraculous meeting materialization! 10:39 < quaid> mmcgrath: ok, I was just emailing f-i-l 10:39 * quaid cancels that 10:39 < quaid> glezos: both; full log with summary above 10:41 < quaid> </meeting> -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

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docs March 2007