Mike and other fellow Fedorans:
We've discussed this a small amount on f-infrastructure-list, and even more on IRC.
Can we run a beta of Moin 1.6 so we can get the click-through CLA?
What do you want to do about the wiki, in general?
The poor wiki beast. It sits in the middle of all of us, and while Infrastructure owns it operationally ("keep the lights on"), who owns it spiritually?
Should that be Fedora Docs?
Could that be Fedora Docs?
Be careful, those may be different answers. :)
What would such an ownership/stewardship role mean?
For one, we would have to push through the click-through CLA and enable an army of people to own and help maintain page quality. As Wikipedia has learned before us.
For other thoughts here, I open the floor to you all ...
- Karsten
Karsten Wade wrote:
Mike and other fellow Fedorans:
We've discussed this a small amount on f-infrastructure-list, and even more on IRC.
Can we run a beta of Moin 1.6 so we can get the click-through CLA?
a test instance to setup or migrate the production wiki to Moin 1.6?
What do you want to do about the wiki, in general?
pretend it doesn't exist :)
The poor wiki beast. It sits in the middle of all of us, and while Infrastructure owns it operationally ("keep the lights on"), who owns it spiritually?
Should that be Fedora Docs?
Could that be Fedora Docs?
Not sure, the websites team should probably work with docs on this. I feel like there's a lot of content on the wiki that should be elsewhere. I think removing content from the wiki and moving it elsewhere (docs.fp.o or fp.o) Almost like no end-user content should end up in the wiki. (probably a dream world)
Be careful, those may be different answers. :)
What would such an ownership/stewardship role mean?
For one, we would have to push through the click-through CLA and enable an army of people to own and help maintain page quality. As Wikipedia has learned before us.
Now this click-through CLA is one that is not tied to the user correct? Just something they're prompted with when editing the page with an unverified account. I worry what an army of people who don't have enough stake in Fedora to fully sign the CLA will do for/to Fedora. But it is the open way :) I'd like to get rid of the CLA all together.
On a side note, there's going to be an FAS session during FUDCon, I'd encourage anyone that is interested to come on by.
-Mike
On Dec 21, 2007 5:00 AM, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
Karsten Wade wrote:
< snipped Karsten's insightful and carefully crafted words >
Now this click-through CLA is one that is not tied to the user correct? Just something they're prompted with when editing the page with an unverified account. I worry what an army of people who don't have enough stake in Fedora to fully sign the CLA will do for/to Fedora. But it is the open way :) I'd like to get rid of the CLA all together.
I've seen the alternative and it ain't pretty.
On a side note, there's going to be an FAS session during FUDCon, I'd encourage anyone that is interested to come on by.
Thanks for the plug, Mike. I think fixing this at FUDCon is possible and will reap real benefits.
See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JohnBabich/SimplifyingOnboarding for the latest refinement of the session.
Best Regards.
John "freedom in a framework with mutual respect" Babich
John Babich wrote:
On Dec 21, 2007 5:00 AM, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
Karsten Wade wrote:
< snipped Karsten's insightful and carefully crafted words >
Now this click-through CLA is one that is not tied to the user correct? Just something they're prompted with when editing the page with an unverified account. I worry what an army of people who don't have enough stake in Fedora to fully sign the CLA will do for/to Fedora. But it is the open way :) I'd like to get rid of the CLA all together.
I've seen the alternative and it ain't pretty.
On a side note, there's going to be an FAS session during FUDCon, I'd encourage anyone that is interested to come on by.
Thanks for the plug, Mike. I think fixing this at FUDCon is possible and will reap real benefits.
See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JohnBabich/SimplifyingOnboarding for the latest refinement of the session.
I was actually talking about the Fedora Account System 2 session :) That sounds very much like the lowering the barriers session from last year (which, really, we should have every FUDCon and I'm quite glad to see you doing it). Just in case things go for worst and I can't make it to yours and you can't make it to the FAS session. Take a look at this:
https://publictest3.fedoraproject.org/fas/
Its currently still in test so feel free to make up a user, it will have no barring on your actual user and you can just come up with whatever you want. There is a CLA process in there that I think you'll find MUCH easier then the current method. There's also some bits for signing a clickthrough CLA though I'm not sure how far along those bits are. Let me know what you think.
-Mike
Best Regards.
John "freedom in a framework with mutual respect" Babich
<snip>
I was actually talking about the Fedora Account System 2 session :) That sounds very much like the lowering the barriers session from last year (which, really, we should have every FUDCon and I'm quite glad to see you doing it). Just in case things go for worst and I can't make it to yours and you can't make it to the FAS session. Take a look at this:
https://publictest3.fedoraproject.org/fas/
Its currently still in test so feel free to make up a user, it will have no barring on your actual user and you can just come up with whatever you want. There is a CLA process in there that I think you'll find MUCH easier then the current method. There's also some bits for signing a clickthrough CLA though I'm not sure how far along those bits are. Let me know what you think.
-Mike
I entered my phone number and generated this error.
Error! The following error(s) have occured with your request:
* telephoneNumber: Please enter a number, with area code, in the form ###-###-####, optionally with "ext.####"
Not everyone will have the same number format e.g. 618 1234 5678 is my phone number including the country code being the 618.
Cheers,
Marc
Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:
<snip>
I was actually talking about the Fedora Account System 2 session :) That sounds very much like the lowering the barriers session from last year (which, really, we should have every FUDCon and I'm quite glad to see you doing it). Just in case things go for worst and I can't make it to yours and you can't make it to the FAS session. Take a look at this:
https://publictest3.fedoraproject.org/fas/
Its currently still in test so feel free to make up a user, it will have no barring on your actual user and you can just come up with whatever you want. There is a CLA process in there that I think you'll find MUCH easier then the current method. There's also some bits for signing a clickthrough CLA though I'm not sure how far along those bits are. Let me know what you think.
-MikeI entered my phone number and generated this error.
No doubt, we'll want to get that fixed. In the future, the best place to put these bugs is the FAS2 hosted instance:
In the meantime, feel free to enter a false number :)
-Mike
<snip>
No doubt, we'll want to get that fixed. In the future, the best place to put these bugs is the FAS2 hosted instance:
In the meantime, feel free to enter a false number :)
-Mike
Done.
https://fedorahosted.org/fas2/ticket/19
Thanks,
Marc
On Dec 21, 2007 5:05 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote: <snip>
I was actually talking about the Fedora Account System 2 session :) That sounds very much like the lowering the barriers session from last year (which, really, we should have every FUDCon and I'm quite glad to see you doing it). Just in case things go for worst and I can't make it to yours and you can't make it to the FAS session. Take a look at this:
I stand corrected. Should we combine the two sessions? There seems to be enough overlap to justify it. On the other hand, perhaps my proposed session should be broader in scope and address all ways to improve the contributor experience, AKA lowering the barriers.
Its currently still in test so feel free to make up a user, it will have no barring on your actual user and you can just come up with whatever you want. There is a CLA process in there that I think you'll find MUCH easier then the current method. There's also some bits for signing a clickthrough CLA though I'm not sure how far along those bits are. Let me know what you think.
I'll check it out.
Thanks,
John "lower those barriers" Babich
John Babich wrote:
On Dec 21, 2007 5:05 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
<snip>
I was actually talking about the Fedora Account System 2 session :) That sounds very much like the lowering the barriers session from last year (which, really, we should have every FUDCon and I'm quite glad to see you doing it). Just in case things go for worst and I can't make it to yours and you can't make it to the FAS session. Take a look at this:
I stand corrected. Should we combine the two sessions? There seems to be enough overlap to justify it. On the other hand, perhaps my proposed session should be broader in scope and address all ways to improve the contributor experience, AKA lowering the barriers.
Its currently still in test so feel free to make up a user, it will have no barring on your actual user and you can just come up with whatever you want. There is a CLA process in there that I think you'll find MUCH easier then the current method. There's also some bits for signing a clickthrough CLA though I'm not sure how far along those bits are. Let me know what you think.
I'll check it out.
Thanks,
John "lower those barriers" Babich
Just a point about Lowering the Barriers. Right now if you follow the instructions on the web pages you will never join the Doc. There are ways to do it in other places and I tried one. Not sure yet if it worked :-)
If this lower those barriers do not address the real problems I have presented, then they will not help.
Karl
Karl Larsen wrote:
John Babich wrote:
On Dec 21, 2007 5:05 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
<snip>
I was actually talking about the Fedora Account System 2 session :) That sounds very much like the lowering the barriers session from last year (which, really, we should have every FUDCon and I'm quite glad to see you doing it). Just in case things go for worst and I can't make it to yours and you can't make it to the FAS session. Take a look at this:
I stand corrected. Should we combine the two sessions? There seems to be enough overlap to justify it. On the other hand, perhaps my proposed session should be broader in scope and address all ways to improve the contributor experience, AKA lowering the barriers.
Its currently still in test so feel free to make up a user, it will have no barring on your actual user and you can just come up with whatever you want. There is a CLA process in there that I think you'll find MUCH easier then the current method. There's also some bits for signing a clickthrough CLA though I'm not sure how far along those bits are. Let me know what you think.
I'll check it out.
Thanks,
John "lower those barriers" Babich
Just a point about Lowering the Barriers. Right now if you follow the instructions on the web pages you will never join the Doc. There are ways to do it in other places and I tried one. Not sure yet if it worked :-)
Karl listen, I've been nice by not saying anything but now I'm going to. Over 1500 people have completed the very process that you're complaining about. Even in the time you've tried to apply people have succeeded. Its not an easy process but it does take a level of competence and independance to complete (we're working on making it better, really) I'm not making fun, but your jabs and quips aren't helping anyone. The docs mailing list is not the place for technical support for signing the CLA and the fedora-list is not a blog.
-Mike
Mike McGrath wrote:
Karl Larsen wrote:
John Babich wrote:
On Dec 21, 2007 5:05 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
<snip>
I was actually talking about the Fedora Account System 2 session :) That sounds very much like the lowering the barriers session from last year (which, really, we should have every FUDCon and I'm quite glad to see you doing it). Just in case things go for worst and I can't make it to yours and you can't make it to the FAS session. Take a look at this:
I stand corrected. Should we combine the two sessions? There seems to be enough overlap to justify it. On the other hand, perhaps my proposed session should be broader in scope and address all ways to improve the contributor experience, AKA lowering the barriers.
Its currently still in test so feel free to make up a user, it will have no barring on your actual user and you can just come up with whatever you want. There is a CLA process in there that I think you'll find MUCH easier then the current method. There's also some bits for signing a clickthrough CLA though I'm not sure how far along those bits are. Let me know what you think.
I'll check it out.
Thanks,
John "lower those barriers" Babich
Just a point about Lowering the Barriers. Right now if you follow the instructions on the web pages you will never join the Doc. There are ways to do it in other places and I tried one. Not sure yet if it worked :-)
Karl listen, I've been nice by not saying anything but now I'm going to. Over 1500 people have completed the very process that you're complaining about.
Thank you Mike! I have asked if anyone else has succeeded in joining and never got an answer. If 1500 people have done so then there is a problem with my Linux F8 or my way of doing it.
Even in the time you've tried to apply people have succeeded. Its not an easy process but it does take a level of competence and independance to complete (we're working on making it better, really) I'm not making fun, but your jabs and quips aren't helping anyone.
My jabs were because it seemed like nothing worked. Now I know I am too stupid to succeed.
The docs mailing list is not the place for technical support for signing the CLA and the fedora-list is not a blog.
-Mike
Actually signing the CLA is duck soup. You print the file they send you and mail it to the address given. Could not be more simple.
Karl
On Friday 21 December 2007 07:02:09 pm Mike McGrath wrote:
Karl listen, I've been nice by not saying anything but now I'm going to. Over 1500 people have completed the very process that you're complaining about. Even in the time you've tried to apply people have succeeded. Its not an easy process but it does take a level of competence and independance to complete (we're working on making it better, really) I'm not making fun, but your jabs and quips aren't helping anyone. The docs mailing list is not the place for technical support for signing the CLA and the fedora-list is not a blog.
Since you have put the boot in ... I take it the aim of the Fedora Documentation Project is to produce documentation that makes it easier to use Fedora. If the documentors cannot produce documentation that makes it easy to use their own system, can we have confidence that they will do better with Fedora?
Timothy Murphy wrote:
On Friday 21 December 2007 07:02:09 pm Mike McGrath wrote:
Karl listen, I've been nice by not saying anything but now I'm going to. Over 1500 people have completed the very process that you're complaining about. Even in the time you've tried to apply people have succeeded. Its not an easy process but it does take a level of competence and independance to complete (we're working on making it better, really) I'm not making fun, but your jabs and quips aren't helping anyone. The docs mailing list is not the place for technical support for signing the CLA and the fedora-list is not a blog.
Since you have put the boot in ... I take it the aim of the Fedora Documentation Project is to produce documentation that makes it easier to use Fedora.
Indeed.
If the documentors cannot produce documentation that makes it easy to use their own system,
How so? As Mike pointed out already, there are over 1500 people who managed to accomplish this, following the procedure from those pages. Regardless of the fact that the accounts system needs revision due to its complexity, procedure seems to be clear for a large number of people.
can we have confidence that they will do better with Fedora?
I don't know. Can you?
This is becoming a bit silly. Can we finally wrap-up?
Vladimir
Vladimir Kosovac wrote:
Timothy Murphy wrote:
On Friday 21 December 2007 07:02:09 pm Mike McGrath wrote:
Karl listen, I've been nice by not saying anything but now I'm going to. Over 1500 people have completed the very process that you're complaining about. Even in the time you've tried to apply people have succeeded. Its not an easy process but it does take a level of competence and independance to complete (we're working on making it better, really) I'm not making fun, but your jabs and quips aren't helping anyone. The docs mailing list is not the place for technical support for signing the CLA and the fedora-list is not a blog.
Since you have put the boot in ... I take it the aim of the Fedora Documentation Project is to produce documentation that makes it easier to use Fedora.
Indeed.
If the documentors cannot produce documentation that makes it easy to use their own system,
How so? As Mike pointed out already, there are over 1500 people who managed to accomplish this, following the procedure from those pages. Regardless of the fact that the accounts system needs revision due to its complexity, procedure seems to be clear for a large number of people.
can we have confidence that they will do better with Fedora?
I don't know. Can you?
This is becoming a bit silly. Can we finally wrap-up?
Vladimir
+1
Regards, Dan O'Brien
Getting back on topic...
Karsten, Moin 1.6 was _finally_ released. The Fedora Infrastructure are currently discussing the plans about upgrading Moin.
More news soon :)
Paulo
On Dec 22, 2007 3:03 AM, Timothy Murphy gayleard@eircom.net wrote:
On Friday 21 December 2007 10:14:37 pm Dan O'Brien wrote:
This is becoming a bit silly. Can we finally wrap-up?
Vladimir
+1
Regards, Dan O'Brien
I always find it strange when people write to a thread asking why people don't stop writing to the thread ...
-- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
Vladimir Kosovac wrote:
Timothy Murphy wrote:
On Friday 21 December 2007 07:02:09 pm Mike McGrath wrote:
Karl listen, I've been nice by not saying anything but now I'm going to. Over 1500 people have completed the very process that you're complaining about. Even in the time you've tried to apply people have succeeded.
This being fact, and my computer with me working it has failed, I would like to go off line with someone who was able to complete the CLA part sending a file made on their computer back to Fedora. I will be out of town for about a week.
If you have time to help please write me direct.
Karl
Its not an easy process but it does take a
Snip
On Dec 21, 2007 10:03 PM, Karl Larsen k5di@zianet.com wrote:
<snip>
John Babich wrote:
Just a point about Lowering the Barriers. Right now if you followthe instructions on the web pages you will never join the Doc. There are ways to do it in other places and I tried one. Not sure yet if it worked :-)
I beg to differ with you there, but I think there is definitely room for improvement.
If this lower those barriers do not address the real problems I havepresented, then they will not help.
That's the challenge, Karl. I feel your frustration and will do my best to address the stumbling blocks. All I ask is that you to hang in there while we sort it out.
BR,
John Babich
John Babich wrote:
On Dec 21, 2007 5:05 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
<snip>
I was actually talking about the Fedora Account System 2 session :) That sounds very much like the lowering the barriers session from last year (which, really, we should have every FUDCon and I'm quite glad to see you doing it). Just in case things go for worst and I can't make it to yours and you can't make it to the FAS session. Take a look at this:
I stand corrected. Should we combine the two sessions? There seems to be enough overlap to justify it. On the other hand, perhaps my proposed session should be broader in scope and address all ways to improve the contributor experience, AKA lowering the barriers.
I thought about that as well. The thing about FAS is we were going to discuss some developer specific things (the api, etc) as well as possible integration in the future with things like having LDAP on the back end and OpenID on the front. Perhaps you and I can talk a bit before we all go up on stage and announce our topics and see if maybe we should combine our sessions and then take FAS to a hackfest or something.
-Mike
On Dec 21, 2007 10:04 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
John Babich wrote:
<snip>
I thought about that as well. The thing about FAS is we were going to discuss some developer specific things (the api, etc) as well as possible integration in the future with things like having LDAP on the back end and OpenID on the front. Perhaps you and I can talk a bit before we all go up on stage and announce our topics and see if maybe we should combine our sessions and then take FAS to a hackfest or something.
Sounds like a plan.
BR,
John Babich
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