12:10 < stickster> <meeting> 12:10 < BobJensen> I say go for it 12:10 < stickster> Hi everybody! 12:11 < jmbuser> hello 12:11 < stickster> Present right now are stickster, BobJensen, and jmbuser; couf will be along shortly, and quaid may amble in at some point 12:11 < BobJensen> Greetings 12:11 < stickster> Item: release notes status 12:11 < stickster> So we had a successful drop to the L10N folks, and translations are proceeding apace. 12:12 < stickster> I dumped an update for the postats (and a new, less locally-dependent script) on the wiki last night: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Translation/Statistics 12:12 < jmbuser> stickster: Congrats 12:12 < stickster> The deadline is 2359 UTC on May 02 2007, so about 3.5 days left 12:13 < kushal> stickster, have a question ? 12:13 < stickster> Several locales are completely done, not as many as we'd like but fine work so far 12:13 < stickster> kushal: go 12:13 < kushal> stickster, is 100% is required to be in ISO ? 12:14 < kushal> l10n 12:14 < quaid> oi 12:14 < kushal> EOF 12:14 < stickster> kushal: For release notes, it will probably be something in the 90% range 12:14 < BobJensen> We have used 90% in the past 12:14 < stickster> kushal: If it's not that high, you can still get an entry in the Web-only release that comes a week or two afterward 12:14 < kushal> stickster, and other pages like homepage, readme 12:15 < kushal> stickster, I am only guy here for bn_IN :) 12:15 < stickster> kushal: We are going to do a more proactive job of updating the fedora-release-notes package this release cycle 12:15 < kushal> stickster, will try to be in 905 12:16 < stickster> So if it's not ready for the ISO, you will still be able to get a later release with a new RPM 12:16 * couf is alive 12:16 < kushal> s/905/90% 12:16 < stickster> The problem is having a half-done translation on the installation program does not look very attractive 12:16 < kushal> stickster, Yes 12:16 < stickster> But if the goal is functionality for later spins including updates, we can just make a new RPM later including the new translations 12:17 < kushal> I will do my best 12:17 < stickster> kushal: we know you will -- much appreciated 12:17 < kushal> thank you 12:17 < stickster> kushal: If you want, get the homepage and about-fedora done first and then worry about release-notes 12:17 < quaid> now would be a good time for us to hear if there is going to be a schedule slip for the final release; that is, one that effects our schedule 12:17 < kushal> stickster, both done 12:18 < vpv> will release-notes get into ISO if it completely translated but about-fedora, homepage etc. are not complete? 12:18 < kushal> stickster, readme is also covered 12:18 < stickster> kushal: as of last night I see 32/8 for your about-fedora and 32/5 for homepage 12:18 < BobJensen> vpv: yes, they are separate modules now as I understand it 12:19 < kushal> stickster, yes, still confused with some words :p 12:19 < stickster> vpv: Asked and answered 12:19 < kushal> stickster, those will be fixed tomorrow 12:19 < stickster> kushal: thanks 12:19 < stickster> OK, let's move on, we can pick up other L10N questions after the meeting 12:19 < vpv> BobJensen: thanks 12:19 < stickster> quaid: +1 on schedule slip... don't know anything yet about one 12:19 < stickster> BobJensen: +1 12:20 < glezos> hi ya all. Sorry for being late. I'll try to be around, doing some other obligations at the same time 12:20 < stickster> glezos: HI!! 12:20 < glezos> stickster: :) 12:20 < stickster> Wow, our attendance has swelled :-) 12:20 * stickster hands gavel to quaid thinking we're done with topic #1 12:21 < couf> yep, let's move on 12:21 < jmbuser> +1 12:21 < quaid> oh, joy! 12:22 < quaid> let's talk about them guides ... 12:22 < stickster> so... guide schedule. :-\ 12:22 < stickster> I'll come right out and say we're a little behind here. I am working on the IG now (like, last few days) 12:22 * quaid admittedly isn't having a great insight about this. 12:23 < stickster> And I think I may be ready for the scheduled PO drop 12:23 < quaid> ok, that we can talk about 12:23 < stickster> But there are things that have happened in the distro that I didn't even expect over the last month, which has put me further behind :-( 12:23 < quaid> we don't want to be in the position of pushing content for trans that isn't really ready, right? 12:23 < stickster> Correct 12:23 < couf> quaid: +1 12:24 < stickster> But we don't want a blank space for the IG for F7 eithre 12:24 < stickster> *either 12:24 < couf> any probable changes to anaconda coming (/me guesses not) 12:24 < quaid> well, IG is one thing, yes 12:24 < stickster> There's the FUG also 12:25 < quaid> we're at the time to focus all our energies on only the FUG and FIG 12:25 < quaid> everything else, well 12:25 < stickster> I think mether has some work going on the Yum guide 12:25 < stickster> But he's doing that on the wiki, so meh 12:25 < quaid> meh 12:25 * stickster doesn't care for shepherding wiki docs anymore, too big a PITA 12:25 < quaid> so there is a conversion back, maybe we can use the Info for that 12:26 < stickster> Sure, depending on the extent of changes 12:26 < quaid> ok, how about we tell everyone on list that we are not going to try to deliver anything for F7 except the relnotes modules, FIG, FUG, and Yum guide 12:26 < couf> I'm guessing it's gonna be all new content 12:27 < quaid> and get the lead writers for those to specify right away what help they need 12:27 < quaid> so it can get done 12:27 < stickster> I think Rahul snapped up a couple people for this work just recently on the list (?) 12:27 < stickster> I don't know what they've done, though, since I haven't seen much in the way of wiki commits. 12:28 < couf> I know he's got 1 or 2 guys, but not sure what's going on there 12:28 < JonRob> he asked for help and pointed us in direction of the "working notes" 12:28 < JonRob> (hi btw) 12:28 < JonRob> i've been waiting for a break in my schedule to get started, and i suppose the same is true of others 12:29 < couf> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/SoftwareManagementGuide/WorkingNot... 12:29 * stickster sees yumex at top of list and rolls his eyes 12:31 < couf> yeah, we should choose pirut or yumex 12:31 < jmbuser> I did the proposed topics and they certainly are not cast in stone 12:31 < stickster> couf: pirut, clearly. 12:31 < couf> stickster: my guess, yes :) 12:31 < jmbuser> Feel free to change them as needed 12:32 < stickster> Well, let's not get into the weeds here. Point is, as quaid said, if work is needed somewhere, post for assistance 12:32 < stickster> We need to carry more traffic and issues to the list 12:32 * stickster is scribbling away on IG, and should be able to handle the work there 12:33 < quaid> stickster: uh, are you sure? 12:33 < couf> stickster: thank you 12:33 < stickster> yeah, I think so 12:33 < quaid> ok 12:34 < quaid> spin up a build soon and ask for comments, perhaps 12:34 < stickster> quaid: Actually, I was just going to say.... 12:34 < stickster> (and this is for everyone) 12:34 < stickster> A GREAT way of looking at current state of docs is to use yelp, the GNOME help browser. 12:34 < stickster> Do a CVS checkout of the doc, then do "make validate-xml-en_US" 12:35 < stickster> then run "yelp file://$PWD/en_US/<nameofdoc>.xml" 12:35 < stickster> That's how I do spot checks, it removes the need for a build. 12:35 * couf gotta run -- dinner 12:35 < stickster> The less extra work required, the more likely it will get done! :-D 12:35 < stickster> yelp reads DocBook automatically. A little of the presentation might differ, but that's trivial. 12:36 < quaid> well, you'll get more eyes with an HTTP URL :), but maybe it's not required 12:36 * glezos is happy to note that it reads localized documents as well. 12:36 < stickster> glezos: yup 12:36 < glezos> stickster: great info, thanks. Do send an email on the lists about this.. 12:37 < stickster> glezos: good point, will do 12:37 < glezos> much easier to proofread than a browser 12:37 < jmbuser> +1 12:40 < stickster> Anything else on this topic or is everyone napping now? 12:41 < JonRob> so what are the immediate goals? 12:41 < stickster> JonRob: For what? 12:41 < JonRob> FUG, FIG and SIG? 12:41 < JonRob> with regard to the guides 12:41 < stickster> FIG -- none from here, I'm working on it. 12:41 < JonRob> ok 12:42 < stickster> SMG -- Rahul is in charge, please ping him on the list 12:42 < JonRob> yeah ok 12:42 < JonRob> just thought it would be good to have it clearly laid out 12:42 < jmbuser> I volunteered to lead the FUG - I plan to do a marathon session if need be 12:42 < stickster> JonRob: I see two bullets on the front matter of the SMG -- 1. check for changes in F7 12:42 < stickster> 2. see WorkingNotes for new items to add 12:43 < stickster> JonRob: Have you a working Rawhide system? 12:43 < JonRob> i plan to install test 4 once it's released 12:43 < stickster> JonRob: It was released on Thursday 12:43 < JonRob> oh i missed that one! 12:43 < JonRob> well then yes, i will do soon 12:43 < stickster> JonRob: Once yo uhave it installed, read the content and check the instructions it gives against your system, and make changes as needed to match reality 12:44 < JonRob> ok :D 12:44 < stickster> Once the existing material has been checked and verified, you can move on to new stuff 12:44 < stickster> Just my opinion, maybe Rahul's is different, so I don't want to step on his toes 12:44 < JonRob> ok sorry, i think accidentaly sidetracked things there - wasn't my intention! 12:45 < stickster> Not a problem, just trying to emphasize that proactivity is a good rule, it's easier to get forgiveness than permission 12:45 * stickster says, as he mucks up CVS with hubris 12:45 < stickster> Tommy would be so proud! :-D 12:46 < jmbuser> I just got F7T4 LiveCD ISO yesterday downloaded and burned, and plan to install to hard drive ASAP 12:46 < stickster> jmbuser: That should work fine for testing yum, I'd think 12:46 * glezos notes that quote from stickster... a really good one.. 12:47 < stickster> Make sure after you install you update yum from Rawhide -- it just got a heck of a lot faster in the last 24 hours! 12:47 < jmbuser> stickster: ok 12:47 < stickster> jmbuser: Sorry, I think I just confused you with JonRob, sorry 12:47 < JonRob> sure 12:47 < stickster> sorry 2x 12:47 * quaid is sorry, bit distracting here this morning 12:47 < stickster> Everyone's sorry, see? 12:48 < jmbuser> sorry 12:48 < stickster> So, there's really not much left on the agenda, just AOB 12:48 < stickster> :_D 12:49 * glezos looked up AOB in wikipedia and wonders if it is an acronym for 'Antyfaszystowska Organizacja Bojowa' 12:50 < JonRob> haha 12:50 < stickster> All Other Bidnez 12:50 < jmbuser> lol 12:50 < stickster> anyone? 12:50 < glezos> oh, a Q 12:51 < glezos> about l10n 12:51 < stickster> glezos: go 12:51 < jmbuser> stcikster: Can I run yum anyway? 12:51 < stickster> jmbuser: uh... sure :-) 12:51 < glezos> did we notice a decrease of docs translations in F7 or an increase? Asking because we were worried if it would be a good idea for Docs not to use elvis for this release 12:51 < quaid> hmmm, good question ... 12:51 < stickster> yes it is 12:52 < quaid> ha! I just threw out my fc6 checkout ... 12:52 < stickster> glezos: I can't tell you activity-related stats but you can see from the stats on the wiki what work has been done 12:52 < quaid> but we can count PO files, right? 12:52 < stickster> sure 12:53 * quaid uses viewcvs 12:53 * stickster thinks he heard glezos volunteer to do the analysis 12:53 < stickster> s/the/an/ since we all know the old saw about stats 12:54 * glezos remembers being given the task without volunteering... :) 12:54 < glezos> I'll do it, ok :) 12:54 < glezos> BTW. Maybe its a good time to decide how much percentage of relnotes translation we would accept, since we have some minutes... Last year in greek we translated everything but the eclipse and gcc sections so, technically, we were below 95%.. but I think it was an OK document to be published 12:54 < stickster> I think 90% is a good mark 12:55 < quaid> ah, good point there 12:55 < stickster> homepage and about-fedora are very small so I think 100% is not a huge requirement 12:55 < BobJensen> stickster: +1 12:55 < glezos> stickster: if the 10% is scattered in the document, it's a very bad mark, but if it's a particular section (especially a deep, highly technical one), even 80% would be a good mark 12:55 < glezos> +1 for homepage & rest 12:55 < quaid> I think glezos point is a good one 12:56 < stickster> Well, we have to set a mark somewhere 12:56 < quaid> maybe we can make that guidance clear 12:56 < stickster> 80% is fine by me too, but it needs to be a mark. 12:56 < quaid> is the % mark the right one though? 12:56 < BobJensen> and the mark has to be easy to check 12:56 < stickster> I don't kow, but any mark we set 3.5 days before the PO deadline is not a super-helpful one for translators 12:56 < stickster> s/kow/know/ 12:56 < stickster> BobJensen: +1 12:56 < glezos> I suggest to lower the mark but be very precise on what we'd like the 20% to be. 12:57 < BobJensen> raw numbers will prevent us from having to manually browse all the translations 12:57 < glezos> Take a look at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats 12:57 < stickster> BobJensen: and... +1 again 12:58 < BobJensen> if some translation is below that but the translator had to leave out a section and would like a manual review I think that perhaps we could look that way 12:58 < glezos> stickster: I agree that it's kind of late... Should have thought of it earlier. :( 12:58 < stickster> I'm going to recuse myself from this decision, simply because the work to enforce it is going to be beyond me this cycle. 12:59 < glezos> OTOH, sending an email saying "80% is OK as far as the 20% is a continuous section or two, of the following: ..." 12:59 < stickster> Whatever we decide, it needs to be documented on the wiki under DocsProject/Schedule for the next release 12:59 < stickster> +email 12:59 < glezos> OK, I'll send an email 12:59 < stickster> Yeah, let's please discuss on the list before we lay anything down 12:59 < glezos> and see what people think.. if a team believes it needs to loosen the 90% for this release, we can talk about it. 12:59 < BobJensen> "Hey I am at 85% one or two sections are 'untouched' but the rest is done" would be OK IMO" 13:00 < stickster> We should keep in mind the multi-release goal, though -- 13:00 < stickster> We are only 3.5 days from deadline for what goes on the ISO. 13:00 < stickster> There's still a whole additional *3 WEEKS* for the Web-only release notes version. 13:00 < BobJensen> right 13:01 < stickster> And we can do a post-release fedora-release-notes package update after the fact, too 13:01 < stickster> Which we ARE going to make use of this release cycle. 13:01 < quaid> how about .... 90% or explain why we should accept it? 13:01 < quaid> so, it forces the review back on the team, if they think they hit the mark regardless of %, then justify it to u 13:01 < stickster> Where explanation != "we have many users in <LANG> locale" 13:01 < BobJensen> I think keeping the expectation high will make for a better finish on the project's product 13:01 < quaid> don't make us hunt it down, etc. 13:02 < BobJensen> quaid: +1 13:02 * stickster wants to avoid any self-recriminations around here about not getting things done on time -- we did a GREAT job getting things out on time this release, and we allowed MORE translation time than ever before 13:02 < quaid> glezos: does that seem fair to you? 13:03 < quaid> processes++ 13:03 < glezos> quaid: didn't really understand it, sorry 13:03 < quaid> glezos: like this ... 13:04 < quaid> glezos: we send a reminder email that 90% is the mark, but that we understand that it matters what is left untranslated in such a case, so ... 13:04 < quaid> glezos: the reminder email says that we are going to stick with 90%, but if a translator/team thinks they hit the mark or did good enough 13:04 < quaid> they need to send in a "request for exception" 13:05 < quaid> and that triggers a review, so we look through the translation and see if it is indeed good enouhg. 13:05 < glezos> OK. I guess I'll be the one handling the exceptions...? :) 13:05 < BobJensen> we can be flexible if there is a good reason for it 13:05 < stickster> I think the decision should be made by a team of Docs folks including glezos 13:05 < quaid> glezos: well, could be :) ... but we mainly need to find editor help to say, "yeah, good enough" 13:06 < quaid> team approach++ 13:06 < stickster> We do it *on the list* 13:06 < glezos> stickster: glad you said that. :) 13:06 < quaid> co' 13:06 < glezos> wouldn't want to tackle this alone 13:06 < stickster> right 13:06 < quaid> btw, did anyone else notice the bogus "release notes" in the test4 announcement? 13:06 < glezos> OK, I'm writing the email now to get it over with 13:07 < stickster> Well, I wouldn't say bogus since it appears they were compiled from our actual relnotes, but yes 13:07 * quaid wrote a kind of harsh email about that he needs to mellow down a bit 13:07 < quaid> stickster: were they recent? 13:07 < stickster> Yes, like 24-48 hours before release apparently 13:07 < stickster> Looks like wwoods did it -- he may not be cognizant of our processes yet 13:08 < quaid> hmmm, not for a lack of trying 13:08 < jmbuser> I thought they kind of came out of nowhere 13:08 < quaid> stickster: it looked like it contained content not in the Beats 13:08 < stickster> hm 13:08 < stickster> Well, Rahul did a few updates over the last few days that will be in the Web-only version, wonder if that was inclusive 13:09 < quaid> ok, I'll find a way to email wwoods without being a jerk about it :) 13:09 < stickster> IYDM could you cc me and/or f-docs-l? 13:09 < stickster> (latter if appropriate) 13:09 < quaid> it's just, you know, we worked are arses off to get the notes in the ISO and on the Web, and we scored one deep link in that whole announcement and that's it 13:10 < quaid> stickster: yeah, you and jesse are on it, since it's a release process we need to work out 13:11 < stickster> OK, I'll jump in with $0.02 13:11 < stickster> I think maybe he got the mistaken impression from our test1-test3 process that test4 would go the same way, regardless of our repeated statements at the top saying "real relnotes coming in test4" :-D 13:12 < stickster> We could be real bastards and redirect the wiki page to Docs/Beats 13:12 < JonRob> *wonders if this will all be in the meeting minutes :D 13:12 < stickster> Certainly 13:12 < stickster> We always dump an IRC log 13:13 < stickster> OK, are we about done then? 13:13 * jmbuser thinks transparency is a good thing 13:13 < quaid> yes, thanks :) 13:13 * stickster needs to jet and get some other things done, then return to FIG 13:14 < jmbuser> +1 13:14 < stickster> not that it concerns anyone else :-D 13:14 * stickster ego-- 13:16 < BobJensen> +1 to wrap it up 13:17 < jmbuser> agreed 13:18 < stickster> Someone needs to volunteer to mail log and minutes, and post links as shown in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes 13:19 < jmbuser> that would be me :-) 13:19 < stickster> sweet 13:19 < jmbuser> who wants to count it down? 13:20 < EvilBob> 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 13:21 < stickster> </meeting>