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A few weeks ago we received a ticket[0] asking about publishing man pages for Fedora on the Internet. We know that there are other man pages out there however we have found that they may not be up to date with the versions that are in Fedora.
The overall opinion, that I've seen, is that this would be something that might be worthwhile *if* we can script the entire process.
Does anyone have any ideas for doing this or have any opinions on doing this?
[0] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=828669
- -- Eric
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On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Eric "Sparks" Christensen sparks@fedoraproject.org wrote:
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A few weeks ago we received a ticket[0] asking about publishing man pages for Fedora on the Internet. We know that there are other man pages out there however we have found that they may not be up to date with the versions that are in Fedora.
The overall opinion, that I've seen, is that this would be something that might be worthwhile *if* we can script the entire process.
Does anyone have any ideas for doing this or have any opinions on doing this?
[0] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=828669
- -- Eric
What is the goal of this? What is the budget for making it happen?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Fedora Project - https://fedoraproject.org
Member of:
- Fedora Board
- Documentation Project
097C 82C3 52DF C64A 50C2 E3A3 8076 ABDE 024B B3D1
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On 07/30/2012 03:02 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Eric "Sparks" Christensen
sparks@fedoraproject.org wrote: A few weeks ago we received a ticket[0] asking about publishing man pages for Fedora on the Internet. We know that there are other man pages out there however we have found that they may not be up to date with the versions that are in Fedora.
The overall opinion, that I've seen, is that this would be something that might be worthwhile *if* we can script the entire process.
Does anyone have any ideas for doing this or have any opinions on doing this?
[0] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=828669
-- Eric
What is the goal of this? What is the budget for making it happen?
The goal is to post all of the man pages from all packages that are in Fedora to make the information easier to find (via an Internet search engine).
Budget?
- -Eric
man.fedoraproject.org?
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On 07/30/2012 08:05 PM, Christopher Meng wrote:
man.fedoraproject.org http://man.fedoraproject.org?
Sure
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Eric "Sparks" Christensen sparks@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas for doing this or have any opinions on doing this?
[from the peanut gallery]
This sounds interesting to me, it's something that I'd appreciate. However, there are technical challenges to solve here:
* How do we get all the man pages? Every package can obviously (and should) supply it's own manpage. I know of no systematic way to install *every* one of the 18000+ packages in Fedora in the hope that they drop something in /usr/share/man
* There are some upstream projects (all the GNU ones come to mind - coreutils, tar, a ton of base system utilities) that don't provide complete documentation in the manpage, instead referring you to the abomination that is the info page for the project. What should we do in that case? Yet other upstream projects could provide documentation some other way.
I'd be willing to help with this, but I explicitly *do not* volunteer to manually update man pages every release, nor do I think anyone else would or should :)
I think we can get as many as possible.
But it's really not an easy job.
On Tue, 2012-07-31 at 12:18 +0800, Christopher Meng wrote:
I think we can get as many as possible.
But it's really not an easy job.
I've just been looking at the man2html manual. Apparently, you don't need to convert the man pages to html. The manual says:
This can be used as a stand-alone utility, but is mainly intended as an auxiliary, to enable users to browse their man pages using a html browser like lynx(1), xmosaic(1) or net‐scape(1).
The manual then mentions quite a lot of stuff about CGI(something I know ZERO about). I suggest we involve infra in the discussion? I know bugzilla uses CGI, and infra would probably know how to use man2html?
One requirement seems to be that we have *all* man pages from *all* out packages installed on the host so that man2html can run on it. I'm not sure if we have a host that has all packages installed. Again, infra would probably be able to shed more light on these details.
And, uh, I would like to help out on this ;)
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, 2012-07-31 at 12:18 +0800, Christopher Meng wrote:
I think we can get as many as possible.
But it's really not an easy job.
I've just been looking at the man2html manual. Apparently, you don't need to convert the man pages to html. The manual says:
This can be used as a stand-alone utility, but is mainly intended as an
auxiliary, to enable users to browse their man pages using a html browser like lynx(1), xmosaic(1) or net‐scape(1).
The manual then mentions quite a lot of stuff about CGI(something I know ZERO about). I suggest we involve infra in the discussion? I know bugzilla uses CGI, and infra would probably know how to use man2html?
One requirement seems to be that we have *all* man pages from *all* out packages installed on the host so that man2html can run on it. I'm not sure if we have a host that has all packages installed. Again, infra would probably be able to shed more light on these details.
And, uh, I would like to help out on this ;)
I had a brief conversation with the guys in #fedora-admin about the idea this afternoon. It doesn't sound like there is a single resource that currently has every .rpm or src.rpm on it for us to play with for a new app, and they understandably weren't enthusiastic about enabling that kind of kludge. For every package, we'd have to find out if there was an update, pull the updated rpm/src.rpm, extract the manpages, parse over them, and push to the web app. TThey advised that the packages app looks like the best bet for accomplishing this in a sustainable manner, since it's digging through each rpm anyway. That doesn't gain us much besides affirmation, but it does give us somewhere to focus our efforts.
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012, Pete Travis wrote:
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, 2012-07-31 at 12:18 +0800, Christopher Meng wrote:
I think we can get as many as possible.
But it's really not an easy job.
I've just been looking at the man2html manual. Apparently, you don't need to convert the man pages to html. The manual says:
This can be used as a stand-alone utility, but is mainly intended as an
auxiliary, to enable users to browse their man pages using a html browser like lynx(1), xmosaic(1) or net‐scape(1).
The manual then mentions quite a lot of stuff about CGI(something I know ZERO about). I suggest we involve infra in the discussion? I know bugzilla uses CGI, and infra would probably know how to use man2html?
One requirement seems to be that we have *all* man pages from *all* out packages installed on the host so that man2html can run on it. I'm not sure if we have a host that has all packages installed. Again, infra would probably be able to shed more light on these details.
And, uh, I would like to help out on this ;)
I had a brief conversation with the guys in #fedora-admin about the idea this afternoon. It doesn't sound like there is a single resource that currently has every .rpm or src.rpm on it for us to play with for a new app, and they understandably weren't enthusiastic about enabling that kind of kludge. For every package, we'd have to find out if there was an update, pull the updated rpm/src.rpm, extract the manpages, parse over them, and push to the web app. TThey advised that the packages app looks like the best bet for accomplishing this in a sustainable manner, since it's digging through each rpm anyway. That doesn't gain us much besides affirmation, but it does give us somewhere to focus our efforts.
It's definitely not necessary to install every RPM - you may find man pages in RPM without installing it, by just unpacking rpm one by one in e.g. tmp. Getting a script that goes thru all RPMs in "everything" repository of latest fedora release once a month would do the trick. Still there will be a work on a "thing" that converts man2html, as I'd bet there will be errors in man html pages caused by this conversion.
Adam Pribyl
On Jul 31, 2012 2:09 AM, "Adam Pribyl" <pribyl pribyl@lowlevel.cz@pribyl@lowlevel.cz lowlevel.cz pribyl@lowlevel.cz> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2012, Pete Travis wrote:
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Ankur Sinha <sanjay.ankursanjay.ankur@gmail.com
@ sanjay.ankur@gmail.comgmail.com sanjay.ankur@gmail.com>wrote:
On Tue, 2012-07-31 at 12:18 +0800, Christopher Meng wrote:
I think we can get as many as possible.
But it's really not an easy job.
I've just been looking at the man2html manual. Apparently, you don't need to convert the man pages to html. The manual says:
This can be used as a stand-alone utility, but is mainly intended as an
auxiliary, to enable users to browse their man pages using a html
browser
like lynx(1), xmosaic(1) or net‐scape(1).
The manual then mentions quite a lot of stuff about CGI(something I know ZERO about). I suggest we involve infra in the discussion? I know bugzilla uses CGI, and infra would probably know how to use man2html?
One requirement seems to be that we have *all* man pages from *all* out packages installed on the host so that man2html can run on it. I'm not sure if we have a host that has all packages installed. Again, infra would probably be able to shed more light on these details.
And, uh, I would like to help out on this ;)
I had a brief conversation with the guys in #fedora-admin about the idea this afternoon. It doesn't sound like there is a single resource that currently has every .rpm or src.rpm on it for us to play with for a new app, and they understandably weren't enthusiastic about enabling that
kind
of kludge. For every package, we'd have to find out if there was an
update,
pull the updated rpm/src.rpm, extract the manpages, parse over them, and push to the web app. TThey advised that the packages app looks like the best bet for accomplishing this in a sustainable manner, since it's
digging
through each rpm anyway. That doesn't gain us much besides affirmation, but it does give us somewhere to focus our efforts.
It's definitely not necessary to install every RPM - you may find man
pages in RPM without installing it, by just unpacking rpm one by one in e.g. tmp. Getting a script that goes thru all RPMs in "everything" repository of latest fedora release once a month would do the trick. Still there will be a work on a "thing" that converts man2html, as I'd bet there will be errors in man html pages caused by this conversion.
Adam Pribyl
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Adam,
I think you misunderstood my comments. It isn't possible to actually install *every* RPM, and I didn't imply that we should try. While the idea of grabbing the relevant files and unpacking them in /tmp is simple, doesn't scale well. Your monthly cron job might take all month to run! Downloading tens of thousands of packages and shuffling their contents through scripts is the "kludge" I was referring to.
I'm not qualified for digging around in the packages app, but I'm glad to see there might be some interest. The formatting surely needs some attention. I just want to see the code that does the formatting paired with the code that does the extracting in a way that doesn't consume a large amount of resources and can be kept updated as the updates are pushed - without human intervention.
For reference, Debian's method is described here: http://lists.debian.org/debian-services-admin/2011/08/msg00003.html I think we can come up with something more elegant and efficient. --pete
Hey Kevin,
I hope it's acceptable to contact you in this way. I don't like resorting to name dropping to prove a point, but your insight would be a valuable counter to my relatively ineffective musings.
Would you please comment on this thread?
Sure. I was not subscribed, so hopefully I have the references ok.
My thoughts:
I think pursuing expanding the packages application to handle man pages as well would be the best way forward right now. It already pulls out icons from packages, so I am hoping it wouldn't be too hard to it to also look for man pages and display them somehow. Then we not only have them, but they are up to date, searchable and can leverage an existing setup.
Failing that, I am really worried about any solution that is "a bunch of shell scripts" that manipulates all 12,000 of our packages. That's the sort of solution that someone gets working with duct tape and bailing wire and then disappears and Fedora Infrastructure is left trying to keep it working. ;) If we do want to move forward on that path, please see:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Request_For_Resources and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Request_for_resources_SOP
Which is a process that would make sure we have a group of people working on it, there's plans and known resource usage, etc.
kevin
On Transifex we have translation project of man pages [1]. May be it will be useful to cooperate with its teams (Russian and Spanish)?
I was active member of this project before, but it was long time ago. Unfortunately now I don't have current information. As I know Yuri Kozlov (Russian, [2]) is the most active maintainer today.
[1] - https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/man-pages/ [2] - https://www.transifex.com/accounts/profile/yuray/
On 7/31/12, Inna Kabanova ikabanova@russianfedora.ru wrote:
On Transifex we have translation project of man pages [1]. May be it will be useful to cooperate with its teams (Russian and Spanish)?
I was active member of this project before, but it was long time ago. Unfortunately now I don't have current information. As I know Yuri Kozlov (Russian, [2]) is the most active maintainer today.
[1] - https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/man-pages/ [2] - https://www.transifex.com/accounts/profile/yuray/
-- Best regards, Inna Kabanova / Russian Fedora Team ru.fedoracommunity.org
----- Исходное сообщение -----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
A few weeks ago we received a ticket[0] asking about publishing man pages for Fedora on the Internet. We know that there are other man pages out there however we have found that they may not be up to date with the versions that are in Fedora.
The overall opinion, that I've seen, is that this would be something that might be worthwhile *if* we can script the entire process.
Does anyone have any ideas for doing this or have any opinions on doing this?
[0] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=828669
- -- Eric
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Fedora Project - https://fedoraproject.org
Member of:
- Fedora Board
- Documentation Project
097C 82C3 52DF C64A 50C2 E3A3 8076 ABDE 024B B3D1
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Is it sponsered by any one or organization?
On 30 July 2012 10:16:04 Eric "Sparks" Christensen wrote:
A few weeks ago we received a ticket[0] asking about publishing man pages for Fedora on the Internet. We know that there are other man pages out there however we have found that they may not be up to date with the versions that are in Fedora.
The overall opinion, that I've seen, is that this would be something that might be worthwhile *if* we can script the entire process.
Does anyone have any ideas for doing this or have any opinions on doing this?
[0] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=828669
-- Eric
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Fedora Project - https://fedoraproject.org
Member of:
- Fedora Board
- Documentation Project
097C 82C3 52DF C64A 50C2 E3A3 8076 ABDE 024B B3D1
Hi:
For the ground-breaking kind of effort this would take, I think it's a waste of time. We'd be better off spending this effort on improving our pre-existing, user-oriented documentation. The fact is, only a very small percentage of the population uses manual pages and there isn't much advantage for them to be accessible in a web browser.
We need to think about our distribution's target user base. If you're looking up a manual page, you're using a terminal emulator, and you should be comfortable enough to know how to use the up-arrow, down-arrow, and 'q' buttons on your keyboard. In other words, I think the advantage of web-based manual pages is negligible.
But... If we do put them online, we should not say "man" anywhere, if possible.
But... If we can localize the manual pages *and* send the translations upstream, then maybe it's worth it.
Christopher.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Christopher Antila < crantila@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On 30 July 2012 10:16:04 Eric "Sparks" Christensen wrote:
A few weeks ago we received a ticket[0] asking about publishing man pages for Fedora on the Internet. We know that there are other man pages out there however we have found that they may not be up to date with the versions that are in Fedora.
The overall opinion, that I've seen, is that this would be something that might be worthwhile *if* we can script the entire process.
Does anyone have any ideas for doing this or have any opinions on doing this?
[0] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=828669
-- Eric
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Fedora Project - https://fedoraproject.org
Member of:
- Fedora Board
- Documentation Project
097C 82C3 52DF C64A 50C2 E3A3 8076 ABDE 024B B3D1
Hi:
For the ground-breaking kind of effort this would take, I think it's a waste of time. We'd be better off spending this effort on improving our pre-existing, user-oriented documentation. The fact is, only a very small percentage of the population uses manual pages and there isn't much advantage for them to be accessible in a web browser.
We need to think about our distribution's target user base. If you're looking up a manual page, you're using a terminal emulator, and you should be comfortable enough to know how to use the up-arrow, down-arrow, and 'q' buttons on your keyboard. In other words, I think the advantage of web-based manual pages is negligible.
But... If we do put them online, we should not say "man" anywhere, if possible.
But... If we can localize the manual pages *and* send the translations upstream, then maybe it's worth it.
If we wanted to go forward looking at the packages app, is there a way for us to look its implementation? I see it uses moshka, but the keywords I tossed at http://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/ didn't find anything.
I like the idea of pushing translated manpages upstream. Does `man` itself have localization features?
--pete
On 8/1/12, Pete Travis me@petetravis.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Christopher Antila < crantila@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On 30 July 2012 10:16:04 Eric "Sparks" Christensen wrote:
A few weeks ago we received a ticket[0] asking about publishing man pages for Fedora on the Internet. We know that there are other man pages out there however we have found that they may not be up to date with the versions that are in Fedora.
The overall opinion, that I've seen, is that this would be something that might be worthwhile *if* we can script the entire process.
Does anyone have any ideas for doing this or have any opinions on doing this?
[0] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=828669
-- Eric
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Fedora Project - https://fedoraproject.org
Member of:
- Fedora Board
- Documentation Project
097C 82C3 52DF C64A 50C2 E3A3 8076 ABDE 024B B3D1
Hi:
For the ground-breaking kind of effort this would take, I think it's a waste of time. We'd be better off spending this effort on improving our pre-existing, user-oriented documentation. The fact is, only a very small percentage of the population uses manual pages and there isn't much advantage for them to be accessible in a web browser.
We need to think about our distribution's target user base. If you're looking up a manual page, you're using a terminal emulator, and you should be comfortable enough to know how to use the up-arrow, down-arrow, and 'q' buttons on your keyboard. In other words, I think the advantage of web-based manual pages is negligible.
But... If we do put them online, we should not say "man" anywhere, if possible.
But... If we can localize the manual pages *and* send the translations upstream, then maybe it's worth it.
If we wanted to go forward looking at the packages app, is there a way for us to look its implementation? I see it uses moshka, but the keywords I tossed at http://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/ didn't find anything.
I like the idea of pushing translated manpages upstream. Does `man` itself have localization features?
--pete
Well,I think that may also be a giant project...And tough,too.
On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:24:45 -0600 Pete Travis me@petetravis.com wrote:
If we wanted to go forward looking at the packages app, is there a way for us to look its implementation? I see it uses moshka, but the keywords I tossed at http://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/ didn't find anything.
It's actually in the 'fedora-community' project. It was intended to be a replacement for the fedora-community app, but has really grown in different ways.
See:
http://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/fedoracommunity.git/log/?h=fedora-packages
for the code.
I like the idea of pushing translated manpages upstream. Does `man` itself have localization features?
Well, you can ship localized versions... other than that I don't think so.
kevin
docs@lists.stg.fedoraproject.org
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Adam Pribyl -
Ankur Sinha -
Christopher Antila -
Christopher Meng -
Eric Christensen -
Inna Kabanova -
Jon Stanley -
Kevin Fenzi -
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky -
Pete Travis