Here is the meeting log from today's Fedora I18n meeting.

16:01:14 <juhp> ok it is after 06:00 UTC 16:01:48 <juhp> I see some people here :) 16:02:33 --> keimoto (i=keimoto@nat/redhat/x-8104ac04241a2761) has joined #fedora-i18n 16:02:36 <juhp> welcome to the first Fedora I18n meeting 16:02:44 <keimoto> hi 16:03:00 <keimoto> candyz0416☺ ping. 16:03:11 --> huzheng (n=huzheng@211.103.237.2) has joined #fedora-i18n 16:03:12 <juhp> hi candyz0416 16:03:18 --> lizhang (n=LingNing@221.220.25.28) has joined #fedora-i18n 16:04:22 <keimoto> hi huzheng lizhang 16:04:28 <huzheng> hi 16:04:33 <lizhang> hi 16:04:41 <paragn> hi 16:04:48 <juhp> okay we're starting these meetings to hopefully have more open discussion on i18n development in fedora 16:04:58 <phuang> hi 16:05:33 <juhp> unfortunately tagoh can't make today's meeting 16:05:41 <juhp> hi guys 16:06:06 <juhp> I think ryo-dairiki and sm|test are also here 16:06:30 <juhp> let's get started and see how much discussion we can generate 16:07:00 <juhp> # Desktop input method install defaults and configuration 16:07:35 <juhp> we have seen some problem with the scim package installation defaults in F7 16:07:49 --> hellwolf (n=hellwolf@121.229.5.142) has joined #fedora-i18n 16:07:57 <keimoto> hi hellwolf 16:08:06 <hellwolf> keimoto, HI 16:08:32 <juhp> hopefully things are already quite a bit better in f8 (devel) 16:08:43 <keimoto> juhp☺ like last time you have changed 'Changjie' to 'Changjie 3' as default. 16:09:19 <juhp> keimoto: right for HK users that should also be an improvement in f8 :) 16:10:01 <keimoto> sure :) 16:10:05 <keimoto> how about Indic lang? 16:10:20 <juhp> I think warren disagrees with me on this, but I would actually like to see scim activated by default again on the desktop in F8 16:10:46 <juhp> keimoto: what about indic? 16:11:03 <keimoto> packages in Indic lang. 16:11:10 <juhp> ah 16:11:29 <keimoto> what is the cons if SCIM activated by default? 16:11:38 <juhp> so currently in devel we have meta packages for major languages using scim 16:12:03 <rahul_b> hi 16:12:21 <juhp> so users can install say scim-lang-bengali say or scim-lang-korean for scim support 16:13:13 <juhp> keimoto: and so scim-m17n no longer needs to be installed by default, nor will be removed if a package group for another indic lang is removed say (like it will in f7) 16:13:17 <juhp> hi rahul_b 16:13:41 <rahul_b> I think these should be installed be default for the selected locale 16:13:55 <juhp> I am wondering if we can/should do something though so that scim is no activated by default on a livecd though 16:14:05 <juhp> rahul_b: yep they will be :) 16:14:38 <juhp> those meta packages are just to help keep necessary packages installed 16:15:00 <juhp> since we don't have real rigid package groups under yum 16:16:06 <juhp> any other comments on install defaults? 16:17:14 <keimoto> I agree to have SCIM activated for all lang. 16:17:17 <juhp> probably next time we will have the meeting earlier and probably warren may join... 16:17:30 <juhp> and we can have more discussion on this 16:18:06 <juhp> keimoto: but not installed for all langs, I suppose? 16:19:00 <juhp> okay let's move on to the next item 16:19:16 <juhp> # I18n comps 16:19:43 <juhp> to add a words on that 16:20:29 --> icman (n=icman@123-240-172-33.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) has joined #fedora-i18n 16:21:07 <juhp> this relates a little to the previous item, but more about if we need to add any new package groups to comps and also how to help maintain comps for i18n related packages 16:21:36 <juhp> one idea I had was to add a Fonts package group 16:22:22 <juhp> it would make it very easy to select various fonts to install by grouping them together 16:22:42 <paragn> juhp, but if we install any lang by groupinstall isn't it will install font for that lang also? 16:22:55 <juhp> paragn: yep it will 16:23:29 <juhp> personally I would like to see more font coverage installed by default like in the livecd releases 16:23:40 <keimoto> would it be appropriate to separate font from lang? 16:23:58 <paragn> keimoto, no 16:24:10 <juhp> keimoto: I think that is a bit dangerous unless we install them by default 16:24:15 <keimoto> paragn☺ no for me too... 16:24:25 <paragn> keimoto, :) 16:24:48 <juhp> keimoto: ah I'm suggesting a Fonts in addition to the Lang group entries not a replacement 16:25:02 <keimoto> I would more prefer to add 'Everything' as an option... 16:25:07 <juhp> Fonts group * 16:25:22 <keimoto> juhp☺ oic 16:25:22 <juhp> keimoto: all langs? 16:25:35 <paragn> juhp, in that case its good to have fonts group that will cover extras fonts packages other than what lang support is not installing 16:26:00 <keimoto> juhp☺ yes maybe, or even all pkgs (all pkgs might be hard as there might be redundancies on pkg func). 16:26:29 <juhp> paragn: yeah it could be useful - specially if people just want to read/see those langs and not input them or have lang packs for them 16:26:42 <juhp> it would be lighter :) 16:27:24 <keimoto> juhp☺ will this add burden on user's customization? 16:27:33 <juhp> keimoto: ok but Everything is outside our scope here... 16:27:37 <paragn> juhp, agree :) 16:27:54 <juhp> paragn: ok :) 16:28:16 <juhp> then maybe I will try to cook up a comps patch for that soon and see how it looks 16:28:33 <keimoto> Font Group + Lang Support Group -> confusing user? 16:28:38 <juhp> should be pretty easy 16:28:46 <paragn> keimoto, no instead it will let user to use any other lang font instead to install whole lang support 16:29:21 <rahul_b> paragn, agree :) 16:29:44 <paragn> I suppose Lang Support means -> install all rpms related to that particular language 16:30:01 <paragn> and Font group mean -> install only fonts for any lang 16:30:02 <juhp> keimoto: i think it should be ok we already have some CJK fonts in base-x now for F7 16:30:07 <rahul_b> paragn, what all is included in lang suport currently? 16:30:13 <juhp> paragn: right 16:30:33 <juhp> rahul_b: openoffice and kde langpacks also for example 16:31:09 <juhp> and input methods for example 16:31:17 <paragn> rahul_b, lang support includes aspell,scim.openoffice lang pack 16:31:33 <keimoto> will user check a lang in Font group and anaconda not installing openoffice-langpack? 16:31:35 <juhp> rahul_b: you can look at the comps module in cvs 16:31:49 <rahul_b> users will normally expect everything related to the lang be installed when lang support is requested 16:31:52 <juhp> keimoto: they could if they want 16:32:16 <keimoto> if we assume they know they could :) 16:32:22 <juhp> rahul_b: yeah they will still have that option and by default get the install lang 16:33:01 <juhp> well I think it is worth trying - let us see how it works first 16:33:17 <rahul_b> juhp, ok :) 16:33:49 <juhp> I think Fonts could go in the Base groups 16:34:22 <juhp> hmm or be part of the X Windows group? 16:34:24 <dychen_> Agree, juhp.. 16:34:38 <rahul_b> can we have one package in two groups? 16:34:52 <juhp> but it will be easier to see the fonts in a separate package group I still think 16:35:02 <juhp> rahul_b: yep - we already do :) 16:35:25 <juhp> for example fonts-japanese is both in japanese-support and base-x 16:35:33 <rahul_b> juhp, then I think same should be done for fonts 16:35:55 <juhp> rahul_b: same? 16:36:31 <rahul_b> juhp, putting other font-lang packages in lang group as well in base-x group 16:36:46 <paragn> rahul_b, yes you can see same package listed twice in different groups while customizing packages to be installed 16:37:48 <juhp> rahul_b: hmm, I need to think more about base-x vs a new fonts group 16:38:04 <juhp> but yeah not all fonts are currently listed in base-x only key ones 16:38:16 <juhp> I suppose we could have both 16:39:09 <juhp> ok some good comments and discussion there :) 16:39:21 <juhp> shall we move on to the next topic 16:39:43 <rahul_b> juhp, can we have more than one font in a single font-lang package? 16:39:52 <juhp> # Renaming of fonts-* to reflect upstream projects 16:40:06 <juhp> rahul_b: yes that is the topic :) 16:40:17 <rahul_b> juhp, yeah :) 16:40:26 <juhp> rahul_b: currently we do for various languages I think 16:41:08 <juhp> like fonts-japanese contains both truetype and bitmap fonts from different projects 16:41:28 <rahul_b> juhp, I have not seen that for indic 16:41:54 <rahul_b> juhp, adn since many upstream projects are willing to be part of fedora, we need to decide on taht 16:42:09 <juhp> so the suggestion was made a while back on one of the mailing-lists to rename our fonts to follow the upstream names 16:42:36 <juhp> rahul_b: right not for indic I guess 16:43:11 <juhp> I think it is also true for Korean and Chinese though 16:45:17 <juhp> well I guess it should be discussed more on the fedora mailing lists, but I am thinking to cause some trouble and file bugs against those packages to have them split up and renamed to follow the upstream project 16:46:21 <rahul_b> how about adding some foo font into, say fonts-hindi? 16:47:16 <rahul_b> and will it affect the default font selection scheme? 16:48:11 <juhp> Nicolas Mailhot originally made the suggestion I think - pity he can't be here this time 16:48:48 <juhp> rahul_b: right good questions 16:49:18 <juhp> rahul_b: generally it would be better to package it separately if it comes from a different upstream 16:49:25 <rahul_b> other distros do include more than one font per package 16:49:47 --> ifelix (i=felix@nat/redhat-in/x-23cf1ed7b6fceb05) has joined #fedora-i18n 16:49:48 <juhp> rahul_b: do you have some examples 16:49:58 <juhp> ? 16:50:04 <rahul_b> juhp, then it becomes a burden for user to remember the font package name 16:50:08 <dychen_> How about "meta" package. 16:50:30 <juhp> rahul_b: right but they can use the lang support group for that 16:50:37 <paragn> juhp, yes if different upstream then package in different rpms 16:50:46 <juhp> dychen_: yup that may also be good 16:50:48 <rahul_b> like in ubutu, 'raghu' and 'gargi' both are part of fonts-indic 16:50:49 <dychen_> We can still separate the fonts from different source. 16:51:14 <juhp> rahul_b: aha and we don't ship them? 16:51:24 <rahul_b> juhp, nope 16:51:27 <dychen_> Then bind them to meta package like fonts-hindi-free fonts-hindi-restrict. 16:51:28 <juhp> hmm 16:51:34 <juhp> rahul_b: should we? :) 16:51:39 <juhp> ah 16:51:43 <rahul_b> but we have requests for few others 16:51:51 <rahul_b> : 16:51:53 <rahul_b> :) 16:52:12 <juhp> rahul_b: are you willing to package them and submit them for package review? :) 16:52:27 <juhp> are they free? 16:52:39 <rahul_b> juhp, yup they are free, GPLed 16:52:47 <juhp> cool 16:53:15 <rahul_b> infact we also have a bug for same on fonts-panjabi 16:53:37 <juhp> rahul_b: aha - and can someone package them you think? 16:54:02 <juhp> rahul_b: how many langs do they cover or are they all separate? 16:54:19 <rahul_b> juhp, I plan to package them 16:54:27 <juhp> rahul_b: great! :-) 16:54:33 <rahul_b> mostly they are one font per lang 16:54:37 <juhp> ok 16:54:59 <juhp> rahul_b: so they would be an alternative to Lohit? 16:54:59 <rahul_b> except the one I made myself which covers five langs 16:55:05 <juhp> :) 16:55:12 <rahul_b> juhp, hmm :) 16:55:55 <juhp> any other comments before we move on? 16:56:35 <paragn> juhp, I do have 16:56:47 <juhp> I will try to post a mail asking for more comments but I think the renaming would mainly affect Asian fonts (since we seem to be the main "culprits";o) 16:57:03 <juhp> paragn: please go ahead 16:57:06 <paragn> juhp, before we discuss on including any new font we must first decide on some packaging guidelines for fonts packages 16:57:15 <juhp> paragn: agreed 16:57:53 <juhp> I had been reviewing a few fonts going on the naming guideline of "<name>-fonts" 16:58:09 <juhp> but it should be written down somewhere I agree 16:58:28 <juhp> so we should make a proposal for that to fedora-packaging 16:58:34 <paragn> juhp, also decide on how to deal with fonts coming from different upstream projects 16:58:42 <juhp> right 16:58:47 <paragn> can they be included in single meta rpm? 16:59:23 <juhp> well I don't know if that really needs special attention since by default we assume separate packages for separate upstreams 16:59:47 <juhp> so really our fonts packages are breaking that rule IMHO 17:00:17 <juhp> of course most of the CJK fonts in fonts-* are not changing that much ... 17:00:32 <paragn> yes so per font we need to create separate rpm 17:00:38 <juhp> I think so 17:01:09 <juhp> I think it was originally so in RHL say and then they were merged - at least for some of them 17:01:25 <juhp> like taipei-fonts now in fonts-chinese used to be a separate package 17:01:37 <juhp> so it may be reincarnated ;) 17:01:54 <paragn> juhp, I think better to have discussion on this on mailing list :) 17:01:59 <juhp> paragn: but agree it might be good to make it explicit :) 17:02:04 <juhp> paragn: yup 17:02:07 <juhp> let's do that 17:02:19 <paragn> we can move to next topic now :) 17:02:41 <juhp> # Plans for next meeting 17:02:59 <keimoto> how often is the meeting? 17:03:05 <juhp> first I wanted to say let's do the next meeting on #fedora-meeting 17:03:29 <juhp> we can probably catch some more people who lurk there :) 17:03:54 <juhp> my motivation for having it here was to draw more attention to this channel 17:04:15 <juhp> keimoto: well let us see until we settle down to a routine 17:04:48 <juhp> I propose to have another meeting next week at an earlier time (ie morning in E Asia) 17:04:57 <juhp> it may be hard for people in India though :-/ 17:05:36 <juhp> probably fortnightly would be sufficient or maybe even once a month 17:05:48 <juhp> it really depends on what people think 17:06:20 <juhp> any comments on the day of the week and time? 17:07:06 <keimoto> alternatively for ppl from another half of the earth 17:07:36 <juhp> keimoto: yeah I think it is a good idea to alternate between am and pm 17:07:41 <keimoto> so might be this time is easy for asia and eastern europe 17:07:52 <keimoto> next time is US and western Europe. 17:08:30 <juhp> for am here probably some people from US will join in 17:08:32 <keimoto> or even cut it into: asia-pac, europe, us 17:08:53 <juhp> keimoto: will pm here may be better for europe but anyway 17:09:14 <juhp> but of course it really depends on the availability of people 17:09:20 <keimoto> yea 17:09:36 <keimoto> pm here is gd from us to eastern europe 17:09:42 <juhp> many of them may be working 17:09:49 <keimoto> (from asia to europe) 17:10:29 <keimoto> juhp☺ should we put meeting log on somewhere? 17:10:33 <juhp> anyway we will experiment and see what kind of attendance we get 17:10:45 <juhp> keimoto: yep it will be on the wiki 17:10:47 <keimoto> and have a place to inform ppl about topics of next meeting? 17:10:49 <keimoto> okay 17:11:05 <juhp> I added some pages for that earlier 17:11:33 <paragn> juhp, cool 17:11:52 <juhp> any more comments, before we open the discussion 17:13:01 <juhp> # Open discussion 17:13:45 <juhp> any other topics for i18n people want to discuss? 17:15:38 <juhp> ok, a couple more minutes for any comments and then let's the meeting 17:17:18 <juhp> just wanted to say that for the next meeting we should probably use the wiki for generating the agenda like other fedora meetings are doing 17:18:12 <juhp> okay thank you very much for attending today's fedora-i18n meeting :) 17:18:23 <juhp> meeting is Closed