Greetings.
I finally sat down and poked around with the current version of zarafa we have setup (7.0.0).
Some observations:
* It seems more responsive and nicer than the 6.x versions were.
* There doesn't seem to be a way to disable features and just show the calendar that I can figure out. The email part is always there. ;( However, unless we have it set to send incoming emails there, it works fine for just sending calendar invites and the like.
* The ical / caldav feeds seem to be there and working. Took a bit to find them, but they do work.
* We can't enable z-push as it's non free, so thats no push for a bunch of mobile devices.
* Calendars are per user. There is a group calendar feature, but it seems to not be available in the free version.
So, I am thinking that if we don't want to offer mail hosting, zarafa isn't going to be something we want to support/deploy.
The only one still getting email into it is Mike. I don't know if other folks are using the calendar or not, but we should check that.
Any further thoughts or conclusions? Or should we set a sunset date?
kevin
On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 12:08, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
Any further thoughts or conclusions? Or should we set a sunset date?
Sunset when freeze is over. Look into Drupal 7 calender options.
On Fri, 23 Sep 2011, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
Greetings.
I finally sat down and poked around with the current version of zarafa we have setup (7.0.0).
Some observations:
It seems more responsive and nicer than the 6.x versions were.
There doesn't seem to be a way to disable features and just show the calendar that I can figure out. The email part is always there. ;( However, unless we have it set to send incoming emails there, it works fine for just sending calendar invites and the like.
The ical / caldav feeds seem to be there and working. Took a bit to find them, but they do work.
We can't enable z-push as it's non free, so thats no push for a bunch of mobile devices.
Calendars are per user. There is a group calendar feature, but it seems to not be available in the free version.
So, I am thinking that if we don't want to offer mail hosting, zarafa isn't going to be something we want to support/deploy.
The only one still getting email into it is Mike. I don't know if other folks are using the calendar or not, but we should check that.
Any further thoughts or conclusions? Or should we set a sunset date?
I demand that Fedora continue to offer and support a mailing solution.... just of me ;-)
+1 to the sunset. Let me know when and I'll make arrangements to get my mail sent back to my normal account.
-Mike
On 24/09/11 15:43, Mike McGrath wrote:
On Fri, 23 Sep 2011, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
Greetings.
I finally sat down and poked around with the current version of zarafa we have setup (7.0.0).
Some observations:
It seems more responsive and nicer than the 6.x versions were.
There doesn't seem to be a way to disable features and just show the calendar that I can figure out. The email part is always there. ;( However, unless we have it set to send incoming emails there, it works fine for just sending calendar invites and the like.
The ical / caldav feeds seem to be there and working. Took a bit to find them, but they do work.
We can't enable z-push as it's non free, so thats no push for a bunch of mobile devices.
Calendars are per user. There is a group calendar feature, but it seems to not be available in the free version.
So, I am thinking that if we don't want to offer mail hosting, zarafa isn't going to be something we want to support/deploy.
The only one still getting email into it is Mike. I don't know if other folks are using the calendar or not, but we should check that.
Any further thoughts or conclusions? Or should we set a sunset date?
I demand that Fedora continue to offer and support a mailing solution.... just of me ;-)
+1 to the sunset. Let me know when and I'll make arrangements to get my mail sent back to my normal account.
-Mike _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
How about hosting zarafa elsewhere ? In a sane legal zone like the EU!
As long as Fedora doesn't itself host this, its not taking part in contributory infringement, I would think.
Regards,
Tristan
Even if that's technically legal, it violates the spirit of what Fedora is all about.
---Brett. On Sep 24, 2011 1:07 PM, "Tristan Santore" < tristan.santore@internexusconnect.net> wrote:
On 24/09/11 15:43, Mike McGrath wrote:
On Fri, 23 Sep 2011, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
Greetings.
I finally sat down and poked around with the current version of zarafa we have setup (7.0.0).
Some observations:
It seems more responsive and nicer than the 6.x versions were.
There doesn't seem to be a way to disable features and just show the
calendar that I can figure out. The email part is always there. ;( However, unless we have it set to send incoming emails there, it works fine for just sending calendar invites and the like.
- The ical / caldav feeds seem to be there and working. Took a bit to
find them, but they do work.
- We can't enable z-push as it's non free, so thats no push for a bunch
of mobile devices.
- Calendars are per user. There is a group calendar feature, but it
seems to not be available in the free version.
So, I am thinking that if we don't want to offer mail hosting, zarafa isn't going to be something we want to support/deploy.
The only one still getting email into it is Mike. I don't know if other folks are using the calendar or not, but we should check that.
Any further thoughts or conclusions? Or should we set a sunset date?
I demand that Fedora continue to offer and support a mailing solution.... just of me ;-)
+1 to the sunset. Let me know when and I'll make arrangements to get my mail sent back to my normal account.
-Mike _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
How about hosting zarafa elsewhere ? In a sane legal zone like the EU!
As long as Fedora doesn't itself host this, its not taking part in contributory infringement, I would think.
Regards,
Tristan
-- Tristan Santore BSc MBCS TS4523-RIPE Network and Infrastructure Operations InterNexusConnect Mobile +44-78-55069812 Tristan.Santore@internexusconnect.net
Former Thawte Notary (Please note: Thawte has closed its WoT programme down, and I am therefore no longer able to accredit trust)
For Fedora related issues, please email me at: TSantore@fedoraproject.org _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
On 24/09/11 19:11, brett lentz wrote:
Even if that's technically legal, it violates the spirit of what Fedora is all about.
---Brett.
On Sep 24, 2011 1:07 PM, "Tristan Santore" <tristan.santore@internexusconnect.net mailto:tristan.santore@internexusconnect.net> wrote:
On 24/09/11 15:43, Mike McGrath wrote:
On Fri, 23 Sep 2011, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
Greetings.
I finally sat down and poked around with the current version of zarafa we have setup (7.0.0).
Some observations:
It seems more responsive and nicer than the 6.x versions were.
There doesn't seem to be a way to disable features and just show the
calendar that I can figure out. The email part is always there. ;( However, unless we have it set to send incoming emails there, it works fine for just sending calendar invites and the like.
- The ical / caldav feeds seem to be there and working. Took a bit to
find them, but they do work.
- We can't enable z-push as it's non free, so thats no push for a bunch
of mobile devices.
- Calendars are per user. There is a group calendar feature, but it
seems to not be available in the free version.
So, I am thinking that if we don't want to offer mail hosting, zarafa isn't going to be something we want to support/deploy.
The only one still getting email into it is Mike. I don't know if other folks are using the calendar or not, but we should check that.
Any further thoughts or conclusions? Or should we set a sunset date?
I demand that Fedora continue to offer and support a mailing solution.... just of me ;-)
+1 to the sunset. Let me know when and I'll make arrangements to get my mail sent back to my normal account.
-Mike _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
mailto:infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
How about hosting zarafa elsewhere ? In a sane legal zone like the EU!
As long as Fedora doesn't itself host this, its not taking part in contributory infringement, I would think.
Regards,
Tristan
-- Tristan Santore BSc MBCS TS4523-RIPE Network and Infrastructure Operations InterNexusConnect Mobile +44-78-55069812 Tristan.Santore@internexusconnect.net
mailto:Tristan.Santore@internexusconnect.net
Former Thawte Notary (Please note: Thawte has closed its WoT programme down, and I am therefore no longer able to accredit trust)
For Fedora related issues, please email me at: TSantore@fedoraproject.org mailto:TSantore@fedoraproject.org _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
mailto:infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
Using foss service providers does not violate what we are about, and besides, if that was the case then we should also ban our users from mentioning rpmfusion in the help channel, which is preposterous. Just because the United States has decided to have patents on software, which nobody in Fedora agrees with, nor Red Hat for that matter, then you can't ask Europe to enforce such stupidity. What you are saying is, that we cant basically add European service providers to the list of US based service providers we already use. Of course, external providers of free services we use to market Fedora, such as facebook, have also faced patent infringement claims. Also, we would not be hosting it ourselves, we do not violate the principal of having only freely usable software in the distribution. The distribution has nothing to do with obtaining services from a third-party.
Of course,, if there was a better option, which we can mass-roll out to allow everyone to work more efficiently together, then great, but people have been banging on about a product we need, and nothing has fit the bill.
And, as a contributor, Id like to have the ability to gain access to such collaboration systems, it should be for everyone, not just a select few.
Regards,
Tristan
On Sep 24, 2011 2:23 PM, "Tristan Santore" < tristan.santore@internexusconnect.net> wrote:
On Sep 24, 2011 1:07 PM, "Tristan Santore" <tristan.santore@internexusconnect.net mailto:tristan.santore@internexusconnect.net> wrote:
On 24/09/11 15:43, Mike McGrath wrote:
On Fri, 23 Sep 2011, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
Greetings.
I finally sat down and poked around with the current version of
zarafa
we have setup (7.0.0).
Some observations:
It seems more responsive and nicer than the 6.x versions were.
There doesn't seem to be a way to disable features and just show
the
calendar that I can figure out. The email part is always there. ;( However, unless we have it set to send incoming emails there, it works fine for just sending calendar invites and the like.
- The ical / caldav feeds seem to be there and working. Took a bit to
find them, but they do work.
- We can't enable z-push as it's non free, so thats no push for a
bunch
of mobile devices.
- Calendars are per user. There is a group calendar feature, but it
seems to not be available in the free version.
So, I am thinking that if we don't want to offer mail hosting, zarafa isn't going to be something we want to support/deploy.
The only one still getting email into it is Mike. I don't know if other folks are using the calendar or not, but we should check that.
Any further thoughts or conclusions? Or should we set a sunset date?
I demand that Fedora continue to offer and support a mailing
solution....
just of me ;-)
+1 to the sunset. Let me know when and I'll make arrangements to get
my
mail sent back to my normal account.
-Mike _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
mailto:infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
How about hosting zarafa elsewhere ? In a sane legal zone like the EU!
As long as Fedora doesn't itself host this, its not taking part in contributory infringement, I would think.
Regards,
Tristan
-- Tristan Santore BSc MBCS TS4523-RIPE Network and Infrastructure Operations InterNexusConnect Mobile +44-78-55069812 Tristan.Santore@internexusconnect.net
mailto:Tristan.Santore@internexusconnect.net
Former Thawte Notary (Please note: Thawte has closed its WoT programme down, and I am therefore no longer able to accredit trust)
For Fedora related issues, please email me at: TSantore@fedoraproject.org mailto:TSantore@fedoraproject.org _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
mailto:infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
On 24/09/11 19:11, brett lentz wrote:
Even if that's technically legal, it violates the spirit of what Fedora is all about.
---Brett.
Using foss service providers does not violate what we are about, and besides, if that was the case then we should also ban our users from mentioning rpmfusion in the help channel, which is preposterous.
This is a straw man and has nothing to do with what I said.
Just because the United States has decided to have patents on software, which nobody in Fedora agrees with, nor Red Hat for that matter, then you can't ask Europe to enforce such stupidity.
I don't see how that's relevant or has anything to do with what I said.
What you are saying is, that we cant basically add European service providers to the list of US based service providers we already use.
No. That is not at all what I said.
I said that gaining access to otherwise non-free software through the use of a technicality is not the Fedora way.
Of course, external providers of free services we use to market Fedora, such as facebook, have also faced patent infringement claims. Also, we would not be hosting it ourselves, we do not violate the principal of having only freely usable software in the distribution. The distribution has nothing to do with obtaining services from a third-party.
Yes. I understood your point the first time. I disagree with you that this is an appropriate option.
Of course,, if there was a better option, which we can mass-roll out to allow everyone to work more efficiently together, then great, but people have been banging on about a product we need, and nothing has fit the
bill.
Correction: Nothing *yet* has fit the bill.
And, as a contributor, Id like to have the ability to gain access to such collaboration systems, it should be for everyone, not just a select few.
You aren't the only one with this desire. I, and many others share it. But I don't believe it's a good idea to sacrifice our principles and start using technicalities just to gain access to a particular piece of software.
Just because something is technically possible doesn't make it a good solution.
Regards,
Tristan
---Brett.
-- Tristan Santore BSc MBCS TS4523-RIPE Network and Infrastructure Operations InterNexusConnect Mobile +44-78-55069812 Tristan.Santore@internexusconnect.net
Former Thawte Notary (Please note: Thawte has closed its WoT programme down, and I am therefore no longer able to accredit trust)
For Fedora related issues, please email me at: TSantore@fedoraproject.org _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
My 2 cents:
Fedora Infrastructure isn't going to deploy and support non free software. Anywhere. See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure_Licensing For some info. I think we could make it more clear though.
Even if we did deploy the zarafa-zpush stuff, it wouldn't matter to me about sunsetting/ending the zarafa deployment. The biggest issue in my mind is that we don't want to get into the business of hosting end user email. There's no way to use the calendar part without having email, so I don't think this is a good solution to our calendar issues.
I'd advise folks wanting a good calendar solution to work with the Insight folks on their solution: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Insight_use_cases_for_calendar https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Insight
hopefully that will get us team and schedule calendars and we can expand from that.
kevin
On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 11:07, Tristan Santore tristan.santore@internexusconnect.net wrote:
On 24/09/11 15:43, Mike McGrath wrote:
On Fri, 23 Sep 2011, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
How about hosting zarafa elsewhere ? In a sane legal zone like the EU!
The EU's laws are no better or worse than the US laws on this. Mainly because local laws trump EU laws unless you want to spend millions on defense lawyers and time.
As long as Fedora doesn't itself host this, its not taking part in contributory infringement, I would think.
You really need to go spend some time with (practicing) lawyers in the EU. Most of the people who say otherwise are usually non-practicing or arm-chair lawyers.
On 24/09/11 19:39, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 11:07, Tristan Santore tristan.santore@internexusconnect.net wrote:
On 24/09/11 15:43, Mike McGrath wrote:
On Fri, 23 Sep 2011, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
How about hosting zarafa elsewhere ? In a sane legal zone like the EU!
The EU's laws are no better or worse than the US laws on this. Mainly because local laws trump EU laws unless you want to spend millions on defense lawyers and time.
As long as Fedora doesn't itself host this, its not taking part in contributory infringement, I would think.
You really need to go spend some time with (practicing) lawyers in the EU. Most of the people who say otherwise are usually non-practicing or arm-chair lawyers.
Local laws do not trump EU law, if these have been ratified, so you are factually incorrect. And we do not have software patents, period. No ifs, no buts. You can have code part of a patent, but only associated with a hardware product, the hardware product is patented.
And Kevin's explanation is an adequate one, it does not fit our needs. The problem is, maybe there should be something else, before something else is trashed. Further, this was never really publicised, it was in "testing", which explains why Mike is the only user, which I find a bit annoying, mainly because we have been at this for a while now.
Also, I should state, that the frustration at "the z-push thing/contributory infringement, is the most annoying thing ever, it makes me and others, who are based in the EU, frustrated and mad. Personally I think businesses in FOSS should relocate out of the US, period. I was not having a go personally at anyone here.
Anyway, so what else are we going to deploy, I have been waiting more than 2 year for some fancy ical stuff for our meetings, and appointments, etc., making us all more effective at what we are trying to do.
Maybe we need something completely foss, not only for us, but for Red Hat internally, maybe some other distributions and foss projects, too. Possibly we should suggest something to other groups, and see if people from multiple groups could be pooled together to start something.
Just an idea.
Regards,
Tristan
Hey guys,
I realize the topic of software patents is a hotly debated topic, particularly in free software circles, and while we all disdain their existence, I don't know that this list of the place for what this conversation has morphed into.
Fedora isn't going to be trying to circumvent the software patent problem by moving services offshore, we have the foundational principle of free software, and that includes free from being patent encumbered.
Let's revert this discussion back to discussing when/how to sunset Zarafa.
--David
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 21:18:37 +0100 Tristan Santore tristan.santore@internexusconnect.net wrote:
...snip...
And Kevin's explanation is an adequate one, it does not fit our needs. The problem is, maybe there should be something else, before something else is trashed. Further, this was never really publicised, it was in "testing", which explains why Mike is the only user, which I find a bit annoying, mainly because we have been at this for a while now.
Well, we shouldn't IMHO push out a solution that does not meet our needs and will be a burden to maintain just to have something in place. ;)
It was never publicized because it was simply in testing and we never decided to fully deploy and announce it.
...snip...
Anyway, so what else are we going to deploy, I have been waiting more than 2 year for some fancy ical stuff for our meetings, and appointments, etc., making us all more effective at what we are trying to do.
Well, the current front runner is the insight folks... but if you have a magic bullet solution, please do feel free to bring it up. ;)
Maybe we need something completely foss, not only for us, but for Red Hat internally, maybe some other distributions and foss projects, too. Possibly we should suggest something to other groups, and see if people from multiple groups could be pooled together to start something.
I think the insight work is the best chance currently to provide a calendar solution that might meet our needs and be something we can grow.
kevin
infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
brett lentz -
David Nalley -
Kevin Fenzi -
Mike McGrath -
Stephen John Smoogen -
Tristan Santore