Hello Kernel People,
It was brought to my attention Jesse Keating, at the end of the Fedora 14 release, that it might be helpful to add some kernel tasks or milestones to the overall release schedule.
I would like to help with this. To do so I need to know which tasks and milestones to include in the schedule. Here is the current development schedule for Fedora 15:
Start End Name Wed 19-Jan Wed 19-Jan Submit Installer Builds for QA Compose Tue 25-Jan Tue 25-Jan Feature Submission Deadline Wed 26-Jan Wed 26-Jan Submit Installer Builds for QA Compose Sat 29-Jan Mon 31-Jan Fudcon Fedora 15--Tempe, Arizona Wed 02-Feb Wed 02-Feb Submit Installer Builds for QA Compose Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Branch Fedora 15 from Rawhide Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Orphan Rawhide Packages Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Feature Freeze (Testable|Complete) Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Spins Freeze--All Fedora 15 Spins Identified Tue 15-Feb Tue 15-Feb Alpha Change Deadline Tue 15-Feb Tue 15-Feb Software String Freeze Wed 16-Feb Wed 16-Feb Submit Installer Builds for Alpha RC Compose Tue 01-Mar Tue 01-Mar Alpha Public Availability Fri 04-Mar Fri 04-Mar Build F-15 collection packages for all language translators Mon 14-Mar Mon 14-Mar Submit Installer Builds for Beta TC Compose Tue 15-Mar Tue 15-Mar Software: Start Rebuild all translated packages Tue 15-Mar Tue 22-Mar Software: Rebuild all translated packages Tue 22-Mar Tue 22-Mar Beta Change Deadline Tue 22-Mar Tue 22-Mar Features 100% Complete Deadline Wed 23-Mar Wed 23-Mar Submit Installer Builds for Beta RC Compose Tue 05-Apr Tue 05-Apr Beta Release Public Availability Fri 15-Apr Fri 15-Apr Submit Installer Builds for Final TC Compose Mon 25-Apr Mon 25-Apr Final Change Deadline Mon 25-Apr Mon 25-Apr Submit Installer Builds for Final RC Compose Tue 10-May Tue 10-May Final (GA) Release
What should we add for the kernel team so that important dates are known and Fedora 15 can be well coordinated?
John
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 03:32:38PM -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
I would like to help with this. To do so I need to know which tasks and milestones to include in the schedule. Here is the current development schedule for Fedora 15:
Sure, right now, we'd target 2.6.38 for F-15, which should be released around the beginning of April.
As it stands, 2.6.37 should be released approximately mid-January, based on us being at 2.6.36-rc3 now and the usually week and a bit between -rc (and usually releasing at approximately -rc8.) Christmas and LCA if Linus goes might be a bit of a delay there, but I'd gather we'll be at 2.6.37 pre-F15-branch.
It's usually a two week merge window for -rc1, and then the usual cycle, of roughly 80 days total before the next kernel release.
Start End Name Wed 19-Jan Wed 19-Jan Submit Installer Builds for QA Compose Tue 25-Jan Tue 25-Jan Feature Submission Deadline Wed 26-Jan Wed 26-Jan Submit Installer Builds for QA Compose Sat 29-Jan Mon 31-Jan Fudcon Fedora 15--Tempe, Arizona Wed 02-Feb Wed 02-Feb Submit Installer Builds for QA Compose Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Branch Fedora 15 from Rawhide
~ 2.6.37 release date.
Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Orphan Rawhide Packages Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Feature Freeze (Testable|Complete) Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Spins Freeze--All Fedora 15 Spins Identified Tue 15-Feb Tue 15-Feb Alpha Change Deadline Tue 15-Feb Tue 15-Feb Software String Freeze Wed 16-Feb Wed 16-Feb Submit Installer Builds for Alpha RC Compose Tue 01-Mar Tue 01-Mar Alpha Public Availability Fri 04-Mar Fri 04-Mar Build F-15 collection packages for all language translators Mon 14-Mar Mon 14-Mar Submit Installer Builds for Beta TC Compose Tue 15-Mar Tue 15-Mar Software: Start Rebuild all translated packages Tue 15-Mar Tue 22-Mar Software: Rebuild all translated packages Tue 22-Mar Tue 22-Mar Beta Change Deadline
~ 2.6.38-rc[7-8]
Tue 22-Mar Tue 22-Mar Features 100% Complete Deadline Wed 23-Mar Wed 23-Mar Submit Installer Builds for Beta RC Compose Tue 05-Apr Tue 05-Apr Beta Release Public Availability
~ 2.6.38 release.
Fri 15-Apr Fri 15-Apr Submit Installer Builds for Final TC Compose Mon 25-Apr Mon 25-Apr Final Change Deadline Mon 25-Apr Mon 25-Apr Submit Installer Builds for Final RC Compose Tue 10-May Tue 10-May Final (GA) Release
What should we add for the kernel team so that important dates are known and Fedora 15 can be well coordinated?
By mid-March we should be well on our way through the 2.6.38 cycle, I think we'll probably stick on 2.6.37 for Alpha (depending on the exact release date) and immediately switch to 2.6.38-rc2 in F-15 afterwards, which should avoid us releasing an Alpha with a 'too raw' -rc1 kernel and still give us plenty of time to clean up issues with 2.6.38-rc[12].
Obviously, the earlier we branch the better, and having more people test the hell out of the kernel upstream the better.
--Kyle
Hi,
2010/11/25 Kyle McMartin kyle@mcmartin.ca:
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 03:32:38PM -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
I would like to help with this. To do so I need to know which tasks and milestones to include in the schedule. Here is the current development schedule for Fedora 15:
Sure, right now, we'd target 2.6.38 for F-15, which should be released around the beginning of April.
Great :)
So, whats with Xen support? http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/virt/2010-November/002324.html
If all the required things will be merged into 2.6.38 it's still too late, because of "Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Feature Freeze (Testable|Complete)"
I know it will probably be in F16, but for the F15 might be at hand (if all required Xen stuff will be merged into mainline).
Kind regards, Michal
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 04:41:35AM +0100, Micha? Piotrowski wrote:
So, whats with Xen support? http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/virt/2010-November/002324.html
Personally, I don't care.
If all the required things will be merged into 2.6.38 it's still too late, because of "Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Feature Freeze (Testable|Complete)"
I put conservative things in the timeline, but said 2.6.37 in "mid-January" which implies 2.6.38-rc1 in "mid-January + approximately 2.5 weeks" which I would round to the first week of February because of LCA.
If the Xen stuff is merged by 2.6.38-rc1 (and if it's not, it won't be in 2.6.38 at all) then I don't see why it can't be a feature. They'll just have to work on all their pieces seperately to begin with.
I know it will probably be in F16, but for the F15 might be at hand (if all required Xen stuff will be merged into mainline).
I'm not taking backports of core kernel code. Full stop.
--Kyle
Kyle McMartin said the following on 11/24/2010 07:09 PM Pacific Time:
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 03:32:38PM -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
I would like to help with this. To do so I need to know which tasks and milestones to include in the schedule. Here is the current development schedule for Fedora 15:
Sure, right now, we'd target 2.6.38 for F-15, which should be released around the beginning of April.
As it stands, 2.6.37 should be released approximately mid-January, based on us being at 2.6.36-rc3 now and the usually week and a bit between -rc (and usually releasing at approximately -rc8.) Christmas and LCA if Linus goes might be a bit of a delay there, but I'd gather we'll be at 2.6.37 pre-F15-branch.
It's usually a two week merge window for -rc1, and then the usual cycle, of roughly 80 days total before the next kernel release.
Start End NameWed 19-Jan Wed 19-Jan Submit Installer Builds for QA Compose Tue 25-Jan Tue 25-Jan Feature Submission Deadline Wed 26-Jan Wed 26-Jan Submit Installer Builds for QA Compose Sat 29-Jan Mon 31-Jan Fudcon Fedora 15--Tempe, Arizona Wed 02-Feb Wed 02-Feb Submit Installer Builds for QA Compose Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Branch Fedora 15 from Rawhide
~ 2.6.37 release date.
Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Orphan Rawhide Packages Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Feature Freeze (Testable|Complete) Tue 08-Feb Tue 08-Feb Spins Freeze--All Fedora 15 Spins Identified Tue 15-Feb Tue 15-Feb Alpha Change Deadline Tue 15-Feb Tue 15-Feb Software String Freeze Wed 16-Feb Wed 16-Feb Submit Installer Builds for Alpha RC Compose Tue 01-Mar Tue 01-Mar Alpha Public Availability Fri 04-Mar Fri 04-Mar Build F-15 collection packages for all language translators Mon 14-Mar Mon 14-Mar Submit Installer Builds for Beta TC Compose Tue 15-Mar Tue 15-Mar Software: Start Rebuild all translated packages Tue 15-Mar Tue 22-Mar Software: Rebuild all translated packages Tue 22-Mar Tue 22-Mar Beta Change Deadline
~ 2.6.38-rc[7-8]
Tue 22-Mar Tue 22-Mar Features 100% Complete Deadline Wed 23-Mar Wed 23-Mar Submit Installer Builds for Beta RC Compose Tue 05-Apr Tue 05-Apr Beta Release Public Availability
~ 2.6.38 release.
Fri 15-Apr Fri 15-Apr Submit Installer Builds for Final TC Compose Mon 25-Apr Mon 25-Apr Final Change Deadline Mon 25-Apr Mon 25-Apr Submit Installer Builds for Final RC Compose Tue 10-May Tue 10-May Final (GA) Release
What should we add for the kernel team so that important dates are known and Fedora 15 can be well coordinated?
By mid-March we should be well on our way through the 2.6.38 cycle, I think we'll probably stick on 2.6.37 for Alpha (depending on the exact release date) and immediately switch to 2.6.38-rc2 in F-15 afterwards, which should avoid us releasing an Alpha with a 'too raw' -rc1 kernel and still give us plenty of time to clean up issues with 2.6.38-rc[12].
Obviously, the earlier we branch the better, and having more people test the hell out of the kernel upstream the better.
--Kyle
This is good information about which version you think Fedora will use, however it doesn't really help build a Fedora schedule for the kernel team.
What specific tasks do you want inserted into the schedule?
For example: 1) On which date do you want to decide on the upstream kernel version for Fedora 15?
2) How many days before the creation of the RC for Alpha, Beta, and Final should the latest kernel be packaged for Fedora?
3) What dates and tasks are important to the kernel team to remember AND complete in order to have a smooth Alpha, Beta, and Final release cycle?
4) What are important tasks that have been overlooked in the past that if tracked (and set to your list as a reminder) would have helped the kernel to play nicer with the rest of the Fedora release cycle?
John
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 11:54:37AM -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
This is good information about which version you think Fedora will use, however it doesn't really help build a Fedora schedule for the kernel team. What specific tasks do you want inserted into the schedule?
For example:
- On which date do you want to decide on the upstream kernel version
for Fedora 15?
As upstream doesn't do guaranteed release dates, we can't really be any more concrete than the hand-wavy guesses that Kyle mentioned.
So we can say "F15 is going to be 2.6.38" now, and that's about as best a guess we can do. .39 is going to be way after GA, and .37 will be 'stale' by the time GA occurs. The exact timing of .38 however is tied to factors we don't control. Guessing the release date is pretty pointless.
- How many days before the creation of the RC for Alpha, Beta, and
Final should the latest kernel be packaged for Fedora?
historically, we've just kept building new candidates for as long as we have release critical bugs. I think that criteria is more useful to meet than a date. There's always 'one more bug' of course, but the acceptance criteria for blockers near the end is pretty tight.
- What dates and tasks are important to the kernel team to remember AND
complete in order to have a smooth Alpha, Beta, and Final release cycle?
- What are important tasks that have been overlooked in the past that
if tracked (and set to your list as a reminder) would have helped the kernel to play nicer with the rest of the Fedora release cycle?
Disabling debug-by-default is the only real date-driven thing we do. Everything else is driven either by upstream release schedules, or by the QA team deciding if something is blocker worthy or not.
Dave
Disclaimer: I'm pursuing this issue because Jesse told me the kernel team wanted to be better integrated into the Fedora development schedule. I'm getting the impression, however, that may not be want you want. To be clear, I'm not trying to force a schedule on the kernel team. Instead I want to help create something that will useful to Fedora and to you. If neither of these objectives can be met, then my work here is done. :) If there is a better way to approach and go it, please let me know.
Dave Jones said the following on 11/29/2010 12:10 PM Pacific Time:
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 11:54:37AM -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
This is good information about which version you think Fedora will use, however it doesn't really help build a Fedora schedule for the kernel team. What specific tasks do you want inserted into the schedule?
For example:
- On which date do you want to decide on the upstream kernel version
for Fedora 15?
As upstream doesn't do guaranteed release dates, we can't really be any more concrete than the hand-wavy guesses that Kyle mentioned.
So we can say "F15 is going to be 2.6.38" now, and that's about as best a guess we can do. .39 is going to be way after GA, and .37 will be 'stale' by the time GA occurs. The exact timing of .38 however is tied to factors we don't control. Guessing the release date is pretty pointless.
I am not suggesting or saying we guess at an upstream kernel version or that we can guarantee an upstream release date. I am asking, when during the Fedora release process, does *Fedora* decide which upstream version of the kernel it wants to include in it's upcoming release. In other words, at what point in the Fedora release cycle do we stop taking the "latest from upstream" and lock onto a version that Fedora will GA with?
- How many days before the creation of the RC for Alpha, Beta, and
Final should the latest kernel be packaged for Fedora?
historically, we've just kept building new candidates for as long as we have release critical bugs. I think that criteria is more useful to meet than a date. There's always 'one more bug' of course, but the acceptance criteria for blockers near the end is pretty tight.
In Fedora 14, Dave Lehman from the anaconda team requested specific dates to reminded that a new installer build was needed, typically a few days before important composes. Would a similar reminder for the kernel be helpful to make sure that important patches get testing coverage or address blocker bugs?
- What dates and tasks are important to the kernel team to remember AND
complete in order to have a smooth Alpha, Beta, and Final release cycle?
- What are important tasks that have been overlooked in the past that
if tracked (and set to your list as a reminder) would have helped the kernel to play nicer with the rest of the Fedora release cycle?
Disabling debug-by-default is the only real date-driven thing we do. Everything else is driven either by upstream release schedules, or by the QA team deciding if something is blocker worthy or not.
Which date should that happen on?
John
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 03:01:59PM -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
Disclaimer: I'm pursuing this issue because Jesse told me the kernel team wanted to be better integrated into the Fedora development schedule. I'm getting the impression, however, that may not be want you want. To be clear, I'm not trying to force a schedule on the kernel team. Instead I want to help create something that will useful to Fedora and to you. If neither of these objectives can be met, then my work here is done. :) If there is a better way to approach and go it, please let me know.
The discussion I had with Jesse about this a while ago was more related to things like the readyness meetings should really have someone from the kernel team representing.
So we can say "F15 is going to be 2.6.38" now, and that's about as best a guess we can do. .39 is going to be way after GA, and .37 will be 'stale' by the time GA occurs. The exact timing of .38 however is tied to factors we don't control. Guessing the release date is pretty pointless.
I am not suggesting or saying we guess at an upstream kernel version or that we can guarantee an upstream release date. I am asking, when during the Fedora release process, does *Fedora* decide which upstream version of the kernel it wants to include in it's upcoming release. In other words, at what point in the Fedora release cycle do we stop taking the "latest from upstream" and lock onto a version that Fedora will GA with?
we can usually make a guesstimate as soon as we're done with the previous release. I don't think we've ever gotten it wrong, and had to drop back to the previous version. One time we did cut things a little fine, but we ended up slipping the release anyway, so it worked out. iirc that time, we were trying to be too aggressive and squeeze 3 rebases in because upstream did a shorter release. Two seems to be the limit for 6 month schedules.
historically, we've just kept building new candidates for as long as we have release critical bugs. I think that criteria is more useful to meet than a date. There's always 'one more bug' of course, but the acceptance criteria for blockers near the end is pretty tight.
In Fedora 14, Dave Lehman from the anaconda team requested specific dates to reminded that a new installer build was needed, typically a few days before important composes. Would a similar reminder for the kernel be helpful to make sure that important patches get testing coverage or address blocker bugs?
Sure.
- What dates and tasks are important to the kernel team to remember AND
complete in order to have a smooth Alpha, Beta, and Final release cycle?
- What are important tasks that have been overlooked in the past that
if tracked (and set to your list as a reminder) would have helped the kernel to play nicer with the rest of the Fedora release cycle?
Disabling debug-by-default is the only real date-driven thing we do. Everything else is driven either by upstream release schedules, or by the QA team deciding if something is blocker worthy or not.
Which date should that happen on?
We usually leave debug on all the way up until the final beta, then turn it off for final. Again, there have been exceptions. If we're seeing corruption bugs for eg, we've left it on longer until they've been sorted.
Dave
Dave Jones said the following on 11/29/2010 03:12 PM Pacific Time:
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 03:01:59PM -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
In Fedora 14, Dave Lehman from the anaconda team requested specific dates to reminded that a new installer build was needed, typically a few days before important composes. Would a similar reminder for the kernel be helpful to make sure that important patches get testing coverage or address blocker bugs?
Sure.
I will add reminders for kernel to the schedule similar to anaconda.
Which date should that happen on?
We usually leave debug on all the way up until the final beta, then turn it off for final. Again, there have been exceptions. If we're seeing corruption bugs for eg, we've left it on longer until they've been sorted.
Dave
I will add this as a reminder going into final.
Any other dates the kernel team would like added to the schedule? If I don't hear anything by this Friday I will assume we've captured what you want.
John
John Poelstra said the following on 12/01/2010 04:28 PM Pacific Time:
I will add this as a reminder going into final.
Any other dates the kernel team would like added to the schedule? If I don't hear anything by this Friday I will assume we've captured what you want.
See the kernel tasks added to the development schedule and let me know if I can add anything else for you.
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-15/f-15-devel-tasks.html
John
On Fri, Dec 03, 2010 at 02:49:48PM -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
Any other dates the kernel team would like added to the schedule? If I don't hear anything by this Friday I will assume we've captured what you want.
See the kernel tasks added to the development schedule and let me know if I can add anything else for you.
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-15/f-15-devel-tasks.html
Thanks very much for all your hard work, John.
--Kyle
Kyle McMartin said the following on 12/04/2010 04:56 PM Pacific Time:
On Fri, Dec 03, 2010 at 02:49:48PM -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
Any other dates the kernel team would like added to the schedule? If I don't hear anything by this Friday I will assume we've captured what you want.
See the kernel tasks added to the development schedule and let me know if I can add anything else for you.
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-15/f-15-devel-tasks.html
Thanks very much for all your hard work, John.
--Kyle
Glad I could help. Going forward Robyn Bergeron can assist with updating or modifying the schedule. I'll be dropping off this list now as Robyn has taken over my responsibilities.
John
kernel@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
Dave Jones -
John Poelstra -
Kyle McMartin -
Michał Piotrowski