meetingminutes February 2014

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2014-02-24 - Fedora QA Meeting - minutes
by Adam Williamson 28 Feb '14

28 Feb '14

================================== #fedora-meeting: Fedora QA meeting ================================== Meeting started by handsome_pirate at 16:04:25 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-02-24/fedora-qa.2014-0… . Meeting summary --------------- * Roll Call (handsome_pirate, 16:05:08) * Fedora.next plans (handsome_pirate, 16:08:05) * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Technical_Specification (handsome_pirate, 16:08:21) * installer discussion: partitioning simplification? (handsome_pirate, 16:23:17) * installer discussion: variant installers? (handsome_pirate, 16:47:36) * ACTION: adamw to draft up a proposal to the Anaconda devs about guided partitioning screen (handsome_pirate, 16:50:07) * ACTION: cmurf to fill in blanks on the proposal (handsome_pirate, 16:50:18) * netsplits causing meeting issues (handsome_pirate, 17:07:11) * taskotron update (handsome_pirate, 17:07:24) * Ending meeting due to irc issues (handsome_pirate, 17:09:02) Meeting ended at 17:09:06 UTC. Action Items ------------ * adamw to draft up a proposal to the Anaconda devs about guided partitioning screen * cmurf to fill in blanks on the proposal Action Items, by person ----------------------- * adamw * adamw to draft up a proposal to the Anaconda devs about guided partitioning screen * cmurf * cmurf to fill in blanks on the proposal * **UNASSIGNED** * (none) People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * adamw (71) * handsome_pirate (66) * cmurf (42) * danofsatx-work (25) * roshi (15) * nirik (13) * satellit (11) * zodbot (8) * synchris (6) * danofsatx-dt (6) * tflink (4) * drago01_ (3) * adamw` (2) * danofsatx (2) * bochecha_ (2) * mjg59 (2) * mkrizek (1) * pwhalen (1) Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4 .. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net

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[Base] Fedora Base Design Working Group (2014-02-28) meeting minutes and logs
by Phil Knirsch 28 Feb '14

28 Feb '14

Great discussion today about the current Tech spec for Server. Sgallagh was present as well and provided great feedback on some of the point and questions we had. We'll be revisiting the Tech Specs of Server and Workstation next week and if it's available the Cloud one as well. Thanks & regards, Phil Meeting ended Fri Feb 28 16:06:18 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . Minutes: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-02-28/fedora_base_desi… Minutes (text): http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-02-28/fedora_base_desi… Log: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-02-28/fedora_base_desi… -- Philipp Knirsch | Tel.: +49-711-96437-470 Manager Core Services | Fax.: +49-711-96437-111 Red Hat GmbH | Email: Phil Knirsch <pknirsch(a)redhat.com> Wankelstrasse 5 | Web: http://www.redhat.com/ D-70563 Stuttgart, Germany

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[FZH] Fedora Chinese Meeting Minutes (2014-02-28)
by Alick Zhao 28 Feb '14

28 Feb '14

Hi all, The IRC meeting minutes today are available at the links below. Thanks everyone for attending the meeting. ================== #fedora-zh Meeting ================== Meeting started by alick at 13:04:22 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-zh/2014-02-28/fedora-zh.2014-02-28-… . Meeting summary --------------- * Roll Call (alick, 13:05:07) * FUDCon APAC 2014 (alick, 13:10:15) * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Beijing_2014/CFP (alick, 13:11:50) * ACTION: alick find someone to finish and send out FUDCon CFP (alick, 13:19:55) * ACTION: alick suggest anyone who needs subsidy apply on trac (alick, 13:20:45) * ACTION: zsun forward CFP to RedHat Beijing R&D when ready (alick, 13:20:57) * ACTION: cicku ask design team to create FUDCon marketing stuff (alick, 13:21:25) * ACTION: alick acquire info about hotel (hostel) inside Beihang (alick, 13:24:07) * ACTION: tonghuix_ post info about hotel in Beihang (alick, 13:26:49) * FAD China 2014 (alick, 13:29:19) * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD_China_2014/zh (alick, 13:29:28) * ACTION: alick forward dongfengweixiao's sticker design to tonghui (alick, 13:40:59) * 50张（500个）贴纸：CNY 225. (alick, 13:50:06) * 易拉宝：CNY 130 (alick, 13:53:16) * 光盘30张：4.5x30=135 (alick, 13:58:56) * FUDCon 组织者午餐：350CNY. (alick, 14:02:58) * 预算总计 CNY840 = USD 140 (alick, 14:07:34) * ACTION: alick to request budget on trac. (alick, 14:08:07) Meeting ended at 14:11:21 UTC. Action Items ------------ * alick find someone to finish and send out FUDCon CFP * alick suggest anyone who needs subsidy apply on trac * zsun forward CFP to RedHat Beijing R&D when ready * cicku ask design team to create FUDCon marketing stuff * alick acquire info about hotel (hostel) inside Beihang * tonghuix_ post info about hotel in Beihang * alick forward dongfengweixiao's sticker design to tonghui * alick to request budget on trac. Action Items, by person ----------------------- * alick * alick find someone to finish and send out FUDCon CFP * alick suggest anyone who needs subsidy apply on trac * alick acquire info about hotel (hostel) inside Beihang * alick forward dongfengweixiao's sticker design to tonghui * alick to request budget on trac. * tonghuix * tonghuix_ post info about hotel in Beihang * tonghuix_ * tonghuix_ post info about hotel in Beihang * **UNASSIGNED** * zsun forward CFP to RedHat Beijing R&D when ready * cicku ask design team to create FUDCon marketing stuff People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * alick (94) * tonghuix (31) * zodbot (14) * tonghuix_ (8) * BadGirl (3) * isyangxin (2) * biergaizi (2) * CyrusYzGTt (0) * tiansworld (0) Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4 .. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot

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Summary/Minutes from today's Fedora Infrastructure meeting (2014-02-27)
by Kevin Fenzi 27 Feb '14

27 Feb '14

============================================ #fedora-meeting: Infrastructure (2014-02-27) ============================================ Meeting started by nirik at 19:00:04 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-02-27/infrastructure.2… . Meeting summary --------------- * Greetings starfighter! (nirik, 19:00:04) * New folks introductions and Apprentice tasks (nirik, 19:01:48) * Applications status / discussion (nirik, 19:04:02) * LINK: https://apps.fedoraproject.org/nuancier (pingou, 19:05:30) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/reviewboard/dashboard/ (nirik, 19:12:18) * Sysadmin status / discussion (nirik, 19:27:30) * download servers and netapp i/o has been a big issue this week. ongoing. (nirik, 19:36:50) * more puppet -> ansible conversions are ready to go (nirik, 19:37:09) * LINK: http://fedorapeople.org/~kevin/ansible-20140224.odp (nirik, 19:38:25) * LINK: http://skvidal.fedorapeople.org/misc/rbac-playbook I find just this (mirek, 19:43:03) * Upcoming Tasks/Items (nirik, 19:48:40) * LINK: https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/list/infrastructure/ (nirik, 19:48:41) * Open Floor (nirik, 19:50:03) * LINK: http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/lookaside/pkgs/389-admin/389-admin-1.1.12.tar… for example (pingou, 19:53:20) Meeting ended at 20:05:11 UTC. Action Items ------------ Action Items, by person ----------------------- * **UNASSIGNED** * (none) People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * nirik (124) * pingou (54) * mirek (17) * smooge (17) * threebean (15) * willo (13) * sgallagh (11) * danofsatx-work (7) * adimania (5) * misc (4) * zodbot (4) * abadger1999 (3) * lmacken (3) * docent (1) * lbazan (1) * relrod (1) * janeznemanic (1) * kushalk124 (1) * ausmarton (1) * fchiulli (1) * mdomsch (0) * puiterwijk (0) * dgilmore (0) -- 19:00:04 <nirik> #startmeeting Infrastructure (2014-02-27) 19:00:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 27 19:00:04 2014 UTC. The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:00:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 19:00:04 <nirik> #meetingname infrastructure 19:00:04 <nirik> #topic Greetings starfighter! 19:00:04 <nirik> #chair smooge relrod nirik abadger1999 lmacken dgilmore mdomsch threebean pingou puiterwijk 19:00:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'infrastructure' 19:00:04 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 dgilmore lmacken mdomsch nirik pingou puiterwijk relrod smooge threebean 19:00:10 <abadger1999> howdy 19:00:34 <janeznemanic> hi 19:00:35 * adimania is here 19:00:41 * pingou 19:00:44 * lmacken 19:01:03 * threebean is here 19:01:05 <relrod> here 19:01:08 * ausmarton is here 19:01:19 * docent is here 19:01:25 * willo is here 19:01:32 <danofsatx-work> here 19:01:33 <nirik> morning everyone. ;) 19:01:43 <danofsatx-work> but not for long, need to reload F20 :( 19:01:48 <nirik> #topic New folks introductions and Apprentice tasks 19:01:54 <nirik> danofsatx-work: fun times. ;) 19:01:58 * kushalk124 is here 19:02:09 <nirik> any new folks like to introduce themselves? or apprentices with questions or comments? 19:02:22 <danofsatx-work> new system - old load isn't optimized for it, so I get to redo it, yet again.... 19:03:55 <nirik> ok, moving along then... as always feel free to chime in with questions or comments anytime. 19:04:02 <nirik> #topic Applications status / discussion 19:04:14 <nirik> any application side news this week? 19:04:26 * mirek is here 19:04:26 <pingou> new fedocal in prod 19:04:32 <pingou> new nuancier in prod 19:04:33 * fchiulli is here. Sorry for being late. 19:04:46 <pingou> (and new(er) nuancier in stg w/ fedmsg integration -- need to test this) 19:04:58 <nirik> pingou: cool. ;) 19:05:08 <mirek> those problems with copr (caused by createrepo_c) are hopefuly solved 19:05:09 <abadger1999> Cool. 19:05:13 <nirik> pingou: this is full nuancier now right? not lite? 19:05:23 <pingou> nirik: yup :) 19:05:24 <pingou> all features included 19:05:30 <pingou> https://apps.fedoraproject.org/nuancier 19:05:39 <pingou> and with a nicer frontpage :) 19:05:48 <nirik> mirek: cool. So it was createrepo_c sucking up all memory? or ? 19:05:50 <pingou> mirek: nice! 19:06:21 <mirek> nirik: yes, I even seen process with 10GB RAM. 19:06:29 <pingou> and with threebean we pushed some commits to summershum (support .gem, more info in the logs and on fedmsg) 19:06:42 <nirik> thats a pile. ;( 19:06:43 <mirek> I find the cause and give it to upstream with reproducer 19:07:16 <lmacken> once createrepo_c is semi-stable, getting mash to use it could be a great easyfix task 19:07:16 <nirik> mirek: I should have arm socs for you before too long... need to get dhcpd to not mess up the cloud dhcp and setup a pxe server to install them, etc. 19:07:42 * mirek is happy 19:07:51 <nirik> lmacken: theres still stuff missing tho I think... no deltarpms? 19:08:11 <pingou> (no deltarpms was mentionned at devconf) 19:08:16 <lmacken> nirik: ah, yeah I haven't looked at it too closely, but that's a blocker for sure :) 19:09:02 <nirik> mirek: those ansible module issues you ran into are really weird. it's like something is modifying your pythonpath, but only sometimes? 19:10:24 <mirek> yes, it really puzzle me, I want to spend some time, but today it happen on prod so I was in hurry to return it back online 19:10:34 <nirik> sure, understand 19:11:32 <nirik> oh, I had one thing to note... 19:11:56 <nirik> a while back puiterwijk got our reviewboard on fedorahosted back up and running 19:12:14 <nirik> I keep not having time to poke around on it more... but we should see if it's usable for us for any needs... 19:12:18 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/reviewboard/dashboard/ 19:12:29 <nirik> it is much faster than before... 19:12:57 <pingou> not accessible w/o fas account? 19:13:03 <sgallagh> nirik: I can assist with administration if there are questions 19:13:09 <pingou> ah, it's the dashboard link 19:13:10 <nirik> pingou: openid 19:13:15 <threebean> nice 19:13:18 <sgallagh> pingou: https://fedorahosted.org/reviewboard/r/ is available directly 19:13:28 <sgallagh> So you can read but not edit. 19:13:45 <sgallagh> puiterwijk elected to make the login page automatically bounce to OpenID. 19:13:49 <nirik> oh reminds me I need to file a bug on the openid part... 19:14:30 <nirik> it makes a local FirstnameLastname user for reviewboard. 19:14:47 <nirik> but... it can't handle users with neat utf8 stuff in name. ;) 19:15:06 <pingou> ^^ 19:15:23 <nirik> I'm sure we are shocked. ;) 19:15:35 * pingou looks at abadger1999 19:15:49 <sgallagh> I personally wish he'd just elected to mangle the openid for the username 19:15:56 <nirik> yeah, seems easier. 19:16:00 <sgallagh> sgallagh-id-fedoraproject-org would have worked better. 19:16:20 <abadger1999> <nod> 19:16:34 <sgallagh> And guaranteed not to be overloaded if we have two John Smiths 19:17:00 <nirik> anyhow, I know we have github for many application reviewing needs, but if it's nice enough we could look at it for ansible changes during freeze or the like. 19:17:03 <sgallagh> That's fixable. Please CC me on the bug report. 19:17:17 <nirik> sgallagh: where's the best place to fiile? 19:17:24 <sgallagh> nirik: FWIW, I'm working on Git hooks to be able to manage pull requests through Review Board. 19:17:42 <sgallagh> So you get the nice review UI of RB alongside the process management of github 19:17:52 <nirik> cool. 19:17:57 <sgallagh> nirik: Just use the Infra trac for instance-specific ones 19:18:02 <nirik> k 19:18:39 <nirik> ok, any other application news? 19:18:47 <threebean> kinda application-y: 19:19:04 <threebean> pushed out a nice error logging config for fedmsg this morning -> http://infrastructure.fedoraproject.org/cgit/ansible.git/commit/?id=1b875b5… 19:19:17 <pingou> it's *nice*! 19:19:21 <threebean> so, we'll get error emails from the badges awarder and the notifications daemon. from summershum too. 19:19:39 <nirik> oh nice. these are when it can't send? or ? 19:19:52 <threebean> well, whenever log.error('blah blah') is called. 19:19:59 <threebean> so its up to each app to catch its own problems and log them. 19:20:16 <pingou> pkgdb2, fedocal and nuancier also send emails 19:20:31 <pingou> I was wondering if we should create an alias to receive these emails 19:20:40 <nirik> yeah, where do they go now? 19:20:51 <threebean> (the fedmsg ones go to sysadmin-datanommer-members(a)fp.o 19:20:53 <pingou> pkgdb2, fedocal and nuancier to me (only) 19:20:56 <nirik> we do have sysadmin-logs, but thats more sysadminy than applicationy 19:21:14 <pingou> sysapp-logs? :D 19:21:40 * pingou doesn't dare to propose appy-logs 19:21:48 <threebean> we had exceptions from fedora-packages coming to lmacken and I for a while.. but there were just too many. 19:22:05 <nirik> a group is often nice because it's easy to manage who's in it, etc. 19:22:14 <nirik> no aliases to change, etc 19:22:18 <pingou> +1 19:23:01 <pingou> on the app side, I've been working a little on FAS3 today https://github.com/fedora-infra/fas/pull/56 19:23:03 <threebean> could we, create an alias for each app so you don't have to choose the firehose or nothing? 19:23:28 <nirik> threebean: we could, but if they are aliases, that means updating them via puppet (or ansible) and more pain in freezes, etc. 19:23:35 <pingou> maybe use gitproject as for fedorahosted? 19:23:36 * threebean nods 19:24:35 <nirik> how about: fedmsglogs-applicationname? just tracking groups 19:24:57 <pingou> wfm too 19:25:18 <nirik> the git ones might be folks who dont want our specific error logs 19:25:32 <threebean> oo, wait. I'm not sure how to distinguish fedmsglogs between applications. :/ 19:26:10 <pingou> then just <app>-logs, fedmsg-logs being just one of them 19:26:14 * threebean nods 19:26:29 <nirik> sure. 19:27:06 <nirik> ok, any other apps news? ;) 19:27:30 <nirik> #topic Sysadmin status / discussion 19:27:43 <nirik> on the sysadmin side, smooge and I have been having fun with download servers. 19:27:57 <nirik> turns out the load on them has been at least part of the thing slowing our netapp storage down. ;( 19:27:59 <smooge> download download 19:28:29 <nirik> we tried cachefilesd the other day, but it made the machines unstable sadly. 19:28:42 <nirik> so, now we are limiting rsyncs per download server 19:28:57 <nirik> we also have a iptables hashlimit to limit ips that hit rsync too much 19:29:00 <mirek> how big is the traffic (or data transfers) 19:29:02 <mirek> ? 19:29:19 * danofsatx-work makes a note to alter his rsync scripts 19:29:37 <nirik> in bytes/packets? a lot. ;) 19:29:53 <nirik> we did have some ip's hitting 100's of times a day 19:30:20 <danofsatx-work> for the record, that wasn't me ;) I hit it once every 7-10 days 19:30:31 <nirik> we are likely going to be moving storage for them next week. 19:31:07 <willo> i'll be making progress on migration of those servers to ansible this weekend 19:31:10 <nirik> looks like around 10TB a day or so as a ballpark 19:31:43 <nirik> perhaps 15 19:31:47 <nirik> willo: great. ;) 19:32:03 <adimania> migration of paste module to ansible should be good to go. 19:32:21 <adimania> I'll pick up another one this weekend probably. 19:32:22 <nirik> adimania: thanks for working on it. ;) 19:32:40 <adimania> nirik, thanks for all the help :) 19:32:52 <pingou> I wonder if we should track a list of remaining module to port to ansible? 19:33:27 <adimania> pingou, that would be really helpful. 19:33:33 <nirik> pingou: we could start doing that yeah... it's a bit of a mess tho due to puppet having old junk in it that we arent actually using anymore. 19:33:47 <nirik> like for example I think talk.fedoraproject.org/asterisk module is still there. 19:34:07 <nirik> but we could perhaps list machines in puppet only and extrapolate ? 19:34:28 <willo> track on a wiki page maybe? 19:34:54 <smooge> I would go with a trac wiki page :) 19:35:12 <smooge> sorry my humour is off. rebooting 19:35:16 <nirik> we could. would somone like to write up at least part of such a thing? I'd be happy to edit it and add info, etc. 19:35:22 <nirik> smooge: :) 19:35:55 <willo> i'll take a stab 19:36:18 <nirik> willo: cool! 19:36:33 <nirik> lets see... 19:36:34 <willo> i'll email list when outline is done for input 19:36:50 <nirik> #info download servers and netapp i/o has been a big issue this week. ongoing. 19:36:53 <nirik> willo: sounds great. 19:37:09 <nirik> #info more puppet -> ansible conversions are ready to go 19:37:31 <nirik> I have one of our arm chassis up in the cloud network, just need to get dhcpd working and pxe server to install them... 19:38:01 <nirik> Oh, I gave a talk to boulder devops monday night on ansible. My slides are at: 19:38:25 <nirik> http://fedorapeople.org/~kevin/ansible-20140224.odp 19:38:42 <nirik> for anyone who wants them. Not sure how much sense they make without me gibbering over them, but there they are. ;) 19:38:49 <smooge> cool 19:39:10 <willo> so no vid of the gibbering for posting to youtube ;) 19:39:11 <nirik> we have some new machines arriving tomorrow (I think) 19:39:24 <nirik> willo: sadly no, they are looking for a a/v person, but didn't have one. 19:39:51 <mirek> I have one idea... write something like rbac-playbook but for cloud, so sysadmin-cloud would be able to run euca-* and nova commands. Can someone send me current source of rbac-playbook so I can base it on that please. I just find som e old version on seth site 19:40:40 <nirik> mirek: not a bad idea... 19:41:04 <nirik> we aren't setup to run nova commands from there... but the euca ones would work after you source a eucarc... 19:41:20 <nirik> wonder if that is possible to just do in sudo? 19:41:41 <nirik> ie "source this, then run command" ? 19:41:57 <mirek> source is not command 19:42:02 <mirek> it is bash internals 19:42:32 <nirik> yeah, but it looks like sudo you can pass a env_file for this. 19:42:33 <smooge> I normally write a shell script if I have to source stuff 19:42:33 <mirek> but it can be very similar to rbac-playbook, and easy, I just want to reuse some recent code 19:43:03 <mirek> http://skvidal.fedorapeople.org/misc/rbac-playbook I find just this 19:43:15 <nirik> right, I can send you the current one... 19:43:24 <nirik> it's pretty primitive tho. 19:43:29 <mirek> thanks 19:43:31 <nirik> for example, command line args aren't supported. 19:43:41 <nirik> which may break it for ec2 stuff. 19:43:47 <mirek> I will keep it primitive for sure :) 19:44:24 <nirik> ok, feel free to look, but I think env_file with the ec2rc and allowing euca* might be easier... 19:44:43 <nirik> thats just a change to sudoers 19:45:04 <nirik> or... hum. 19:45:38 <nirik> what if we add a acl to the ec2rc file to allow sysadmin-cloud to read it. Then you can just source it and run commands as you. They shouldn't need any privs 19:46:07 <nirik> it would mean all sysadmin-cloud folks would have the credientals 19:46:42 <mirek> ahh chacl(1) yes, that should work 19:47:01 <nirik> anyhow, will ponder on it and try and get something that works. ;) 19:47:28 <nirik> anything else sysadmin related? 19:47:31 * lbazan here late.. 19:48:40 <nirik> #topic Upcoming Tasks/Items 19:48:41 <nirik> https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/list/infrastructure/ 19:48:55 <nirik> anything upcoming folks would like to note or schedule? 19:49:14 <nirik> I still haven't done much on FAD organizing. Hopefully more news by next week 19:49:24 <threebean> nirik: same here 19:50:03 <nirik> #topic Open Floor 19:50:17 <pingou> I have been playing with the lookaside cache 19:50:19 <nirik> anyone have anything for open floor? questions, comments, ideas, favorate pies? 19:50:29 <pingou> I was wondering how often we have 1 tarball with multiple md5 19:50:36 <pingou> the results are interesting: http://paste.fedoraproject.org/80881/39350540/ 19:50:57 <nirik> wow. 19:51:07 <pingou> but that on all the current tree, so there are some old versions in there 19:51:10 <nirik> I wonder if thats indicative of uploads that fail... 19:51:25 <nirik> or if it's upstreams that change stuff and re-release. 19:51:34 <pingou> I'm afraid for the later 19:51:36 <threebean> holy.. 19:51:53 <pingou> I'm not sure yet what to do with this, mail on devel, blog post? 19:52:13 <pingou> maybe it might be worth asking people to watch out for this 19:52:18 <nirik> I wonder if we could find out more by looking at commits on those spec files? 19:52:21 <pingou> accident happens but... 19:52:24 <smooge> how do they get 2 different md5s? 19:52:28 <mirek> What does that mean? E.tgz has 10 md5 sums -- does that mean that 10 packages have the same tar.gz? 19:52:35 <pingou> smooge: two different tarball with the same name 19:52:44 <pingou> mirek: yup 19:52:47 <smooge> ah ok. 19:52:51 <nirik> it means you upload foo-1.0.tar.gz 19:53:00 <nirik> then upload it again, but with a different md5 19:53:05 <smooge> ahhhhh 19:53:20 <pingou> http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/lookaside/pkgs/389-admin/389-admin-1.1.12.tar… for example 19:53:23 <misc> either upstream did it, which is bad 19:53:30 <smooge> so I guess a timestamp,md5sum would be needed 19:53:42 <misc> or someone did regenerate the tarball from git, this kind of stuff 19:53:42 <nirik> misc: yeah, but does sadly happen 19:53:49 <pingou> smooge: we kinda have the timestamp on the apache page ;-) 19:53:57 <misc> or someone modified the tarball, cause patch is too mainstream :) 19:54:03 <pingou> misc: regenerate the tarball w/o renaming it 19:54:25 <nirik> I wonder, could we grab all those, then unpack and diff -Nur on them to see how they are different? I guess so, but might take a long time to figure out all of them. 19:54:38 <pingou> 5569 packages had multiple md5 for at least 1 of their version 19:54:43 <pingou> might be a little much :) 19:54:58 <misc> nirik: skip texlive, this will reduce the time to see :) 19:55:01 <pingou> nirik: smooge but that's the output from my demand from yesterday (install tree on pkgs01) 19:55:04 <pingou> :) 19:55:15 <smooge> so what is the problem? the build system grabs the wrong one? we are worried people are uploading different ones 19:55:36 <pingou> smooge: the build system will grab whatever is in the source file, so we should be fine there 19:55:36 <nirik> pingou: I'd say devel list I guess. Ask people if they are hitting upload issues (which we could try and fix) or other? 19:55:49 <pingou> it's more about packager/upstream behavior 19:55:52 <nirik> well, if it's a upload issue, we should try and fix it. 19:56:01 <nirik> if it's a upstream issue, we should be very sad, but ok. 19:56:09 <nirik> if it's a packager issue, we should tell them not to do that. ;) 19:56:21 * pingou is on the list 19:56:43 <smooge> pingou, but the source file says 389-admin-1.1.12.tar.bz2 and the lookaside cache has 3 of them 19:56:58 <nirik> smooge: the sources file has md5 too 19:57:03 <pingou> smooge: 3 different md5, and the source file has the md5 19:57:07 <smooge> duh 19:57:09 <smooge> thanks 19:57:11 <pingou> :) 19:57:19 <smooge> I deal with budgets and PPC for a week 19:57:31 <pingou> you're in pretty good shape then! :D 19:57:32 <smooge> well mostly budgets 19:57:34 <nirik> anyhow, perhaps devel list and hope we can get folks interested in investigating more so we don't have to? 19:57:46 <pingou> nirik: ok we'll do that :) 19:58:04 <nirik> crowdsource all the things! :) 19:58:26 <pingou> nirik: but I doubt texlive are bad upload, I'm pretty sure they are small sources :) 19:58:46 <nirik> oh... I wonder if that data would be nice too... size ? 19:58:53 <pingou> ? 19:59:02 <nirik> because if there are 4 of them and 3 of them are really small, it sounds like an upload problem? 19:59:19 <smooge> i was thinking spec file 19:59:22 <nirik> if all are close to the same size, it sounds more like upstream re-released or packager messed up 19:59:56 <nirik> pingou: so, for each of those on your list, a 'ls -l' of the same md5sum one? 20:00:09 <nirik> ls -lR 20:00:13 <smooge> actually even then it could be a bad upload. We had someone complaining a while back and it turned out about being a bad proxy in front 20:00:31 <nirik> sure, but it might give some more indications. 20:00:38 <pingou> nirik: good idea 20:01:38 <nirik> ok, if nothing else, will close out in a minute. 20:02:03 <willo> quick update from me 20:02:28 <nirik> willo: sure, whats up? 20:02:42 <willo> I'm about half way through collating a list of networks before I start on the diagrams 20:03:10 <danofsatx-work> willo: sorry I dropped off on helping you with this - school became harder than I anticipated for this semester. 20:03:22 <nirik> cool. please do ask me if you have questions. 20:03:29 <willo> i'll have something shortly to get input on assumptions 20:03:42 <willo> assumputions about purpose etc 20:03:46 <danofsatx-work> but things are stabilizing, so feel free to ping me for anything 20:03:47 <willo> nirik: no prob 20:04:00 <willo> danofsatx-work: no probs will do 20:04:18 <nirik> great. ;) 20:04:36 <willo> listing it out in spreadsheet and i'll stick it up on fedorapeople and ping mailing list 20:04:48 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone! Lets get back to it in #fedora-admin, #fedora-apps, #fedora-noc. 20:04:55 <nirik> willo: sounds goodly. 20:05:11 <nirik> #endmeeting

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Summary/Minutes from today's FPC Meeting (2014-02-27 17:00 - 18:50 UTC)
by James Antill 27 Feb '14

27 Feb '14

============================================= #fedora-meeting-1: Fedora Packaging Committee ============================================= Meeting started by spot at 17:03:44 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2014-02-27/fpc.2014-02-27… . Meeting summary --------------- * Software collections in Fedora (https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/339) (spot, 17:06:57) * Go Packaging Draft - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/382 (spot, 17:13:06) * workarounds for rpm symlink <-> directory issue - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/385 (spot, 17:14:18) * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User:Patches/PackagingDrafts/Sy… (spot, 17:15:05) * Recommend %autosetup over %setup - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/388 (spot, 17:27:47) * LINK: http://www.rpm.org/wiki/PackagerDocs/Autosetup has the meat (spot, 17:32:57) * ACTION: spot's mini-draft approved (+1:7, 0:1, -1:0) (spot, 17:43:54) * Exception for bundled libs in icecat - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/391 (spot, 17:45:32) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/472#comment:16 (abadger1999, 17:48:08) * LINK: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1049889 => no comment (RemiFedora, 18:03:31) * icecat bundling tabled for this week as there's both questions of what we should be doing and fairness wrt firefox. (abadger1999, 18:09:10) * #393 New Packaging Guidelines: Drupal 7 (abadger1999, 18:09:28) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/393 (abadger1999, 18:09:34) * Drupal7 guidelines approved with the virtual provides requirement changed to MUST (+1:6, 0:0, -1:0) (abadger1999, 18:28:49) * #394 Outdated guideline about Requires(foo,bar) syntax (abadger1999, 18:28:51) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/394 (abadger1999, 18:28:59) * Remove the Scriptlets requirements section from the Guidelines and add them to the epel guidelines for EL5 (+1:5, 0:0, -1:0) (abadger1999, 18:31:21) * #395 Mono guidelines include hard-coded library paths (abadger1999, 18:31:53) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/395 (abadger1999, 18:31:58) * Mono path macros approved with the folowing changes: prepend with an underscore and use %{_prefix} (+1:5, 0:0, -1:0) (abadger1999, 18:37:20) * #396 Reserve static UID/GID for OpenStack ironic daemon (abadger1999, 18:37:34) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/396 (abadger1999, 18:37:39) * #397 Please, choose an ID number for a new group called "input" (abadger1999, 18:39:01) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/397 (abadger1999, 18:39:07) * Open floor (abadger1999, 18:50:19) Meeting ended at 18:52:30 UTC. Action Items ------------ * spot's mini-draft approved (+1:7, 0:1, -1:0) Action Items, by person ----------------------- * spot * spot's mini-draft approved (+1:7, 0:1, -1:0) * **UNASSIGNED** * (none) People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * spot (96) * abadger1999 (92) * geppetto (51) * tibbs|w (32) * RemiFedora (24) * Rathann (22) * limburgher (9) * SmootherFrOgZ (7) * zodbot (6) * willb (5) * tstclair (2) * nirik (2) Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4 .. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot

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Summary/Minutes from today's irc support sig meeting (2014-02-27)
by Kevin Fenzi 27 Feb '14

27 Feb '14

============================================= #fedora-meeting: IRC Support SIG (2014-02-27) ============================================= Meeting started by nirik at 18:00:25 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-02-27/irc-support-sig.… . Meeting summary --------------- * init process (nirik, 18:00:26) * (cantstanya, 18:02:22) * Week in review (nirik, 18:04:04) * if anyone wants AntiSpamMeta to hilight them on alerts, let me know (nb, 18:10:07) * Open Floor (nirik, 18:11:48) Meeting ended at 18:21:05 UTC. Action Items ------------ Action Items, by person ----------------------- * **UNASSIGNED** * (none) People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * nirik (27) * Khaytsus (17) * cantstanya (12) * EvilBob (12) * nb (8) * zodbot (3) * Sonar_Gal (2) -- 18:00:25 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2014-02-27) 18:00:26 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 27 18:00:25 2014 UTC. The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:26 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:26 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig 18:00:26 <nirik> #topic init process 18:00:26 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig' 18:00:56 <nirik> anyone around for an irc support sig meeting? 18:01:05 * EvilBob 18:02:10 <cantstanya> #topic 18:02:22 <cantstanya> #info 18:03:14 <nirik> cantstanya: ? 18:03:33 <cantstanya> aren't those supposed to be useful commands 18:03:45 <nb> cantstanya, for meeting chairs, not for normal users 18:03:48 <nirik> for people running meetings sure... 18:04:02 <nirik> please go see the meetbot wiki page for more info. ;) 18:04:04 <nirik> #topic Week in review 18:04:25 <nirik> anything anyone would like to note from the previous week? 18:04:48 <EvilBob> There are no updated F20 Live Media yet. 18:05:25 <EvilBob> fenris02 mistakenly pointed a user to the link last night 18:05:29 <nirik> bummer. 18:05:30 * Khaytsus 18:05:32 <nirik> hopefully soon. 18:05:49 * Sonar_Gal 18:06:00 * nb 18:06:08 <nirik> There were some broken deps in f20 updates issues, but they were all fixed pretty fast and should be ok now. 18:06:34 <nirik> as always asking people to use --skip-broken or just waiting a while should clear those up 18:07:49 <nirik> otherwise it's been reasonably normal. 18:08:18 <Khaytsus> How's the antispameta bot doing? 18:08:40 <nirik> it's not bothered me any, not seen much it's done tho 18:08:58 <Khaytsus> Right. So either users are behaving, or it's not alerting. Seems I did see one alert from it. 18:09:03 <Khaytsus> I set a highlight for it 18:09:05 <nb> it's alerted a couple times 18:09:08 <nb> i think 18:09:33 <Khaytsus> I might have set the hilight late, seems 3-4 days ago 18:10:04 <Khaytsus> We didn't expect it to be babbling all of the time anyway :) 18:10:07 <nb> #info if anyone wants AntiSpamMeta to hilight them on alerts, let me know 18:10:36 <nirik> yeah, quiet is good. 18:10:50 <EvilBob> I still think we should put it in #fedora-unregistered to skew it's data 18:10:58 <EvilBob> ;) 18:11:01 <cantstanya> its* 18:11:48 <nirik> #topic Open Floor 18:11:55 <nirik> anyone have items for open floor? 18:12:08 <Khaytsus> nb: Hilighting on this should work for all users, right? att-#fedora 18:12:12 <cantstanya> hi, it's me, cantstanya 18:12:17 <cantstanya> OK so, nirik is probably related to ikonia (the guy from Umbongo). EvilBob is definitely related to IdleOne (from Umbongo) and Darth_Slack (from Slackware). All five aforementioned individuals, in addition to fenris02, are jelly of my belly. Also EvilBob has been on bully overdrive lately. 18:12:30 <Khaytsus> defuq? 18:12:37 <cantstanya> that will be all. 18:12:53 <Khaytsus> Thanks for your input. 18:13:02 <cantstanya> your welcome 18:13:06 <Khaytsus> you're 18:13:08 <nirik> cantstanya: ok, so back to ban for you then I guess? 18:13:12 <cantstanya> no it's yours 18:13:17 <cantstanya> not you are 18:13:24 <Khaytsus> Anywho. 18:14:05 * EvilBob just shakes his head 18:14:26 <Khaytsus> I had something else but I lost it in that train wreck 18:14:33 * Sonar_Gal is watching 18:14:34 <Khaytsus> But it wasn't anything important 18:14:37 <nb> Khaytsus, yeah 18:14:44 <Khaytsus> Ticket 165 going to hang out forever? 18:15:20 <nirik> oh, I thought I closed that long ago... 18:15:23 <nirik> we discussed it. 18:15:56 <Khaytsus> nb: Thanks. It alerts in #fedora-ops right? How about for other channels it's in (or is it in any others yet?) 18:16:12 <nirik> would someone like to go close that ticket? if not, I can try later... 18:16:31 <nb> Khaytsus, yeah, it alerts in #fedora-ops for #fedora and #fedora-social 18:16:40 <Khaytsus> nb: That'll do it for me :) 18:16:53 <nb> it's only in those two, plus -ops for fedora. other channels alert in their own ops channels 18:16:58 <Khaytsus> Gotcha 18:17:52 <EvilBob> nirik: So is cantstanya going back in the ban list then? 18:18:20 <EvilBob> nirik: They asked to be removed just so they could solve a problem and then wanted to be returned to it. 18:18:29 <nirik> well, they asked us to after they asked that one question, so, sure, happy to honor the request. 18:18:41 <cantstanya> EvilBob: stop being so angry. 18:18:53 <EvilBob> nirik: Good enough for me. 18:19:35 <EvilBob> cantstanya: stop attacking people that were on your side. 18:19:49 <EvilBob> Hell, just stop attacking people 18:19:54 <EvilBob> Best of luck to you. 18:20:13 <cantstanya> Pointing out the obvious isn't attacking, but okay. 18:20:20 * nirik shakes his head. 18:20:29 <nirik> anyhow, will close out in a minute if nothing else. 18:21:03 <nirik> Thanks for coming everyone. 18:21:05 <nirik> #endmeeting

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Server Technical Specification Working Session Minutes (2014-02-27)
by Stephen Gallagher 27 Feb '14

27 Feb '14

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 ============================================================================== #fedora-meeting-1: Server Technical Specification Working Session (2014-02-27) ============================================================================== Meeting started by sgallagh at 15:00:35 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2014-02-27/fedora-meeting… . Meeting summary - --------------- * roll call (sgallagh, 15:00:47) * Supported Architectures (sgallagh, 15:08:48) * AGREED: Fedora Server will support ix86, x86_64 and armv7hl architectures on the XFS filesystem (+5, 0, -0) (sgallagh, 15:25:55) * Partitioning and LVM (sgallagh, 15:26:04) * By default, /tmp should be on disk, not a tmpfs (mitr, 15:51:10) * ACTION: sgallagh to talk with anaconda devs about guided vs. custom partition changes (sgallagh, 15:54:18) * For anaconda discussions: 1) do we eliminate the option or give choice - talk to anaconda, 2) do we want LVM by default, 3) thinp by default (sgallagh, 15:56:02) * AGREED: Fedora Server would prefer a single choice for the guided storage setup (+5, 0, 0) (sgallagh, 16:14:42) * AGREED: Fedora Server would prefer the use of LVM backing the non-/boot partitions (+5, 0, 0) (sgallagh, 16:15:11) * No consensus was reached on the topic of LVM thin-provisioning (sgallagh, 16:15:26) * Keep in mind the multiple-disk installation case. (sgallagh, 16:32:25) * Firewall (sgallagh, 16:40:09) * AGREED: Fedora Server will enable firewalld by default (+5, 0, 0) (sgallagh, 16:40:11) * Server Desktop (sgallagh, 16:40:18) * Software Installation (sgallagh, 16:57:58) * AGREED: Available packages will be shown based on the selected install source. Fedora Server will not restrict any from being installed, but does not commit to supporting anything not part of the Roles. (+5, 0, 0) (sgallagh, 17:03:28) Meeting ended at 17:03:33 UTC. Action Items - ------------ * sgallagh to talk with anaconda devs about guided vs. custom partition changes Action Items, by person - ----------------------- * sgallagh * sgallagh to talk with anaconda devs about guided vs. custom partition changes * **UNASSIGNED** * (none) People Present (lines said) - --------------------------- * sgallagh (194) * simo (174) * adamw (77) * nirik (66) * mitr (53) * jwb (31) * pjones- (13) * mizmo (10) * zodbot (6) * tuanta (4) * spot (3) * andreasn_ (3) * abadger1999 (2) * Evolution (0) * davidstrauss (0) Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4 .. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMPcHQACgkQeiVVYja6o6NbMgCbBntagVCds7opBnb9YewVVcUG VaUAn1G7JZCd6xbVRxAx90ZyGf9p5Or5 =H4R5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Minutes from today's (26 February 2014) Cloud WG Meeting
by Joe Brockmeier 26 Feb '14

26 Feb '14

========================================== #fedora-meeting-1: cloud WG weekly meeting ========================================== Meeting started by jzb at 17:01:42 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2014-02-26/fedora-meeting… . Meeting summary --------------- * Status on Cloud To-Do list (jzb, 17:04:59) * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud/Cloud_ToDo (jzb, 17:05:12) * ACTION: mattdm ping about getting a Cantas board set up. (jzb, 17:06:26) * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud_Changelist (mattdm, 17:07:32) * ACTION: jzb send call for activity day Friday. (jzb, 17:10:19) * Technical Specification Sample: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Technical_Specification (jzb, 17:11:56) * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud/Cloud_ToDo#technical_specifications (mattdm, 17:12:53) * New Business (jzb, 17:15:54) * ACTION: mattdm to ping zooz about GCE status, connect up with Google people (mattdm, 17:17:08) * mattdm also working on hp cloud and amazon marketplace internally (mattdm, 17:17:41) Meeting ended at 17:19:22 UTC. Action Items ------------ * mattdm ping about getting a Cantas board set up. * jzb send call for activity day Friday. * mattdm to ping zooz about GCE status, connect up with Google people Action Items, by person ----------------------- * jzb * jzb send call for activity day Friday. * mattdm * mattdm ping about getting a Cantas board set up. * mattdm to ping zooz about GCE status, connect up with Google people * **UNASSIGNED** * (none) People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * mattdm (37) * jzb (35) * zodbot (5) * geppetto (1) * samkottler (0) * rbergeron (0) Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4 .. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot -- Joe Brockmeier | Principal Cloud & Storage Analyst jzb(a)redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/ Twitter: @jzb | http://dissociatedpress.net/

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Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-02-26)
by Kevin Fenzi 26 Feb '14

26 Feb '14

=================================== #fedora-meeting: FESCO (2014-02-26) =================================== Meeting started by nirik at 18:00:06 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-02-26/fesco.2014-02-26… . Meeting summary --------------- * init process/roll call (nirik, 18:00:07) * ticket #1178 Fedora 21 scheduling strategy (nirik, 18:03:54) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1178 (nirik, 18:03:54) * Websites team is asking for 6 weeks before alpha (instead of normal 2 weeks), with content, features, and dl links known before then (mattdm, 18:06:41) * changes here are the changes process, not changes to how fedora is made (nirik, 18:18:39) * AGREED: Fedora Changes Process submission deadline for system-wide changes is April 7th. Deadline for true standalone changes will be sometime later than that. Changes to how fedora is produced for fedora.next are still due on March 3rd. (+7,0,0) (nirik, 18:29:42) * ticket #1221 Product working group activity reports (nirik, 18:31:50) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1221 (nirik, 18:31:50) * cloud WG is holding an online activity day on Friday to get the list of changes/requirements into shape for next week's deadline (mattdm, 18:32:56) * server is going to have another meeting thursday to work on it's changes. (nirik, 18:33:21) * ACTION: nirik to follow progress of different install frontend from workstation (nirik, 18:41:04) * ticket #1235 Gnome 3.12 update for F20 (nirik, 18:43:26) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1235 (nirik, 18:43:26) * AGREED: defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so (+8,0,0) (nirik, 18:49:22) * ticket #1237 Graceful handling of guideline violating content (nirik, 18:49:51) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1237 (nirik, 18:49:51) * AGREED: no FESCo change. The FPC could update the guidelines if they want, but FESCo recommends that no change be made (+8,0,0) (nirik, 18:59:04) * ticket #1238 Should Bodhi reset karma to 0 when builds are changed? (nirik, 18:59:26) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1238 (nirik, 18:59:26) * AGREED: FESCo agrees that karma should be reset when packages are edited in an update (+8,-1,0) (nirik, 19:07:47) * LINK: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1020839 (nirik, 19:08:28) * Next weeks chair (nirik, 19:08:35) * notting to chair next week (nirik, 19:09:00) * Open Floor (nirik, 19:09:06) * retester badge idea! https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-badges/ticket/251 (mattdm, 19:10:24) Meeting ended at 19:16:13 UTC. Action Items ------------ * nirik to follow progress of different install frontend from workstation Action Items, by person ----------------------- * nirik * nirik to follow progress of different install frontend from workstation * **UNASSIGNED** * (none) People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * nirik (108) * mattdm (79) * sgallagh (50) * dgilmore (44) * abadger1999 (26) * pjones (26) * mitr (24) * jreznik (20) * notting (15) * zodbot (12) * jwb (9) * ajax (3) * drago01 (2) * t8m (0) * mmaslano (0) -- 18:00:06 <nirik> #startmeeting FESCO (2014-02-26) 18:00:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Feb 26 18:00:06 2014 UTC. The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:07 <nirik> #meetingname fesco 18:00:07 <nirik> #chair abadger1999 dgilmore mattdm mitr notting nirik pjones t8m sgallagh mmaslano jwb 18:00:07 <nirik> #topic init process/roll call 18:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco' 18:00:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 dgilmore jwb mattdm mitr mmaslano nirik notting pjones sgallagh t8m 18:00:15 <sgallagh> .hellomynameis sgallagh 18:00:17 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh(a)redhat.com> 18:00:31 * abadger1999 here 18:00:37 * notting is here 18:00:48 <jwb> i am somewhat here 18:01:17 <mattdm> I am all here, as the cloud meeting ending nice and early 18:01:19 * jreznik is available for anything fesco wants from him ;) 18:01:30 <mattdm> jreznik Cake, please. 18:01:48 <mitr> Hello all 18:02:57 * dgilmore is here 18:03:32 <nirik> ok, I guess lets go ahead and get started... 18:03:33 <pjones> yay, my other meeting ended. 18:03:50 <nirik> pjones: cool. :) sadly this one is just begun... 18:03:54 <nirik> #topic ticket #1178 Fedora 21 scheduling strategy 18:03:54 <nirik> .fesco 1178 18:03:54 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1178 18:03:56 <zodbot> nirik: #1178 (Fedora 21 scheduling strategy) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1178 18:04:21 <nirik> so, in this ticket it was suggested we set a 'not sooner than' for deadline for changes... thoughts? discussion? 18:04:34 <notting> there was a response from websites on-list with actual data about time they needed 18:05:03 <nirik> yeah. 18:05:25 <jreznik> nirik: it was in changes ticket, so far I just announced it's opened and asked folks to submit them asap... if you set deadline, I'll send update 18:05:32 <nirik> they also noted they were unsure what we wanted to do with spins.fedoraproject.org... which we should clarify if we can? 18:05:32 <mattdm> they're asking for 6 weeks before alpha 18:06:23 <dgilmore> mattdm: websites likely has a lot of work to do 18:06:41 <mattdm> #info Websites team is asking for 6 weeks before alpha (instead of normal 2 weeks), with content, features, and dl links known before then 18:07:06 <jreznik> mattdm: with august in mind (not saying it's the target, just to put it into context), alpha would have to in the end of May 18:07:30 <jreznik> and before that 6 weeks you need answers for website guys first, so add a few more weeks 18:07:49 * dgilmore rerally thinks we should look at october, see if we can get done what we want to in that time 18:07:49 <mattdm> jreznik So mid april for all the features to be finalized?F 18:08:00 <mattdm> dgilmore +1 to the last two things you've said :) 18:08:45 <mattdm> I'm ready to declare a Halloween release and then work back from there 18:08:45 <notting> jreznik: six weeks before that alpha would mean we'd need answers for websites RSN 18:08:46 <nirik> I don't think we should set the schedule today... 18:08:46 <jreznik> dgilmore: it's really becoming october but let's have that data collected first before playing with it for several times 18:08:56 <jreznik> nirik: no 18:08:56 <dgilmore> I think having a deadline of sorts people will know I can get foo done in that time. we may not get everything we want but we should be able to make a great start 18:09:02 <nirik> we could set a deadline for changes tho if we wanted... 18:09:33 <mattdm> nirik change submission? 18:10:01 <nirik> right. 18:10:25 <jreznik> for change submission I'd like to have some flexibility in accepting changes even later, on the other hand it would be nice to have overview of what's going to happen as soon as possible 18:10:34 <jreznik> ask WGs to break PRDs/tech specs into changes 18:10:46 <mattdm> jreznik +1 18:11:00 <mattdm> maybe we require those changes _first_? 18:11:00 <jreznik> ask other teams to propose changes too - and you know, it depends on what WGs wants etc 18:11:15 <jreznik> mattdm: yeah, maybe 18:11:22 <nirik> we are asking working groups to give us info by march 3rd currently. 18:11:57 <jreznik> nirik: it's tech spec - so beginning of April to break it into changes? 18:12:01 <mattdm> the cloud wg is basically making a list of changes we plan to file 18:12:16 <mattdm> jreznik +1 18:12:23 <nirik> I don't know. we are kinda operating in new lands here. 18:12:36 <mattdm> and then let's ask for other system-wide changes to be filed by the same time 18:12:37 <jreznik> we are, but change process fits pretty well here 18:13:14 <pjones> mattdm: yeah, that sounds like a workable plan 18:13:44 <mattdm> and then we can have a second deadline later for the stand-alone changes 18:14:00 <mattdm> and we can also accept system-wide changes on a case-by-case basis, with a naturally higher bar 18:14:03 <notting> mattdm: that seems workable 18:14:06 <nirik> sure 18:14:23 <mattdm> (last statement meant to be "can accept later") 18:14:42 <sgallagh> The only problem with having a later deadline for stand-alone is that sometimes those get promoted to "system-wide" 18:14:46 <nirik> so, concrete proposal(s)? 18:15:14 <mattdm> sgallagh good point -- maybe some wording in the deadline annoucement along those lines 18:15:22 <jreznik> sgallagh: again - case by case 18:15:37 <sgallagh> Right, but with a later deadline, they by definition have less time to sort it out 18:15:40 <mattdm> ("if you think this might _possibly_ have wider impact, getting this in sooner rather than later is best for all") 18:15:46 <sgallagh> Or else we have to slip, etc. 18:15:53 <jreznik> and I'm ok with this way - actually something I really wanted 18:15:54 <mattdm> ("if you think your self-contained change might _possibly_ have wider impact, getting this in sooner rather than later is best for all") 18:16:08 <jreznik> yep 18:17:08 <mattdm> #proposal Changes from working group prds/tech specs, and other system-wide changes, due April 7th 18:17:17 <mattdm> (first monday in april) 18:17:38 <jreznik> wfm 18:17:43 <sgallagh> mattdm: +1 18:17:51 <nirik> so, we would then set the schedule after that? 18:18:01 <mattdm> nirik yes? 18:18:02 <abadger1999> For meeting notes, could we make cleat that this is part of the changes process rather than the "changes to how fedora is produced"? 18:18:18 <abadger1999> *clear 18:18:22 <nirik> thats longer without a clear schedule, but sure I guess. 18:18:35 <mattdm> abadger1999 the changes process is how we make changes to how fedora is produced, right/ 18:18:37 <mattdm> ? 18:18:39 <nirik> #info changes here are the changes process, not changes to how fedora is made 18:18:59 <notting> mattdm: +1 18:19:02 <abadger1999> mattdm: Not that I've been thinking... I've been thinking that the Changes process is what is changing within fedora. 18:19:28 <mattdm> abadger1999 eg changes process applies to fedora-distribution, not to fedora-project 18:19:38 <mattdm> sure I guess that's reasonable. 18:19:45 <abadger1999> mattdm: The changes to how fedora is produced continue to be due on Mar 3 and then we work out with releng/infra/etc which of those things are doable in our timeframe. 18:19:49 <dgilmore> abadger1999: right, we could use the change process for how we produce fedora 18:20:06 <dgilmore> but to me its changes in fedora 18:20:33 <mattdm> abadger1999 got it. although for the cloud wg at least, most of our stuff will be expressable in the form of this type of Changes 18:20:35 <nirik> abadger1999: right, but those things we do do, we also make into 'changes' so we can track them and have people following them, etc. 18:20:52 <abadger1999> nirik: <nod> That would be fine for me. 18:21:02 <jreznik> abadger1999: idea is to break these tech specs into changes, so it's trackable etc. 18:21:12 <jreznik> nirik was faster :) 18:21:23 <mattdm> I see that it is kind of an expansion of the scope of the changes process, but I think it's a reasonable one 18:21:25 <abadger1999> I just don't want to see new changes to how fedora is produced for the first time on April 7th 18:21:45 <mattdm> given that we don't really have a framework for the other, and this is a relatively lightweight and already tested one 18:21:46 <jreznik> abadger1999: no, definitely not 18:21:57 <nirik> abadger1999: +1 18:22:01 <dgilmore> abadger1999: we will likely see those changes later than that 18:22:17 <mattdm> dgilmore I think abadger1999 means the _plan_ for them 18:22:19 <mattdm> not the implementation 18:22:25 <abadger1999> mattdm: right. 18:22:31 <dgilmore> mattdm: well I can't do the plan yet 18:22:38 <jreznik> mattdm: well, it's standard process how even our downstream produces theirs releases 18:22:39 <nirik> right. I think we should feel free to reject anything like that that shows up at the last minute... 18:22:51 <dgilmore> because I don't know, trying to get some tools opened up 18:23:00 <dgilmore> which needs a legal review and sign off 18:23:15 <nirik> there could always be exceptions... 18:23:15 <dgilmore> which I don't know when or if that will happen 18:23:21 <mattdm> dgilmore okay, so, it might be more like "a plan for a plan". 18:23:38 <mattdm> and if we have the high-level tracking for that as a change, we can know what the blockers are 18:23:50 <dgilmore> its very wishy washy right now what exact changes we will get 18:23:55 <mattdm> and for example ask spot to try to unblock certain things 18:24:29 <abadger1999> #proposal Fedora Changes Process submission deadline is April 7th. Changes to how fedora is produced for fedora.next are still due on March 3rd. 18:24:30 <dgilmore> mattdm: its nothing to do with spot 18:24:51 <mattdm> dgilmore yeah but he is in a position to help, I think. 18:24:55 <nirik> dgilmore: if it misses this time it could be next, or it could be an exception... 18:24:57 <abadger1999> err... I left out system-wide there. 18:25:03 * abadger1999 adds that 18:25:12 <dgilmore> mattdm: he is not in this 18:25:22 <mattdm> okay 18:25:33 <dgilmore> mattdm: current plans may fall through totally and we will have to work a new plan 18:26:06 <abadger1999> #proposal Fedora Changes Process submission deadline for system-wide changes is April 7th. Deadline for true standalone changes will be sometime later than that. Changes to how fedora is produced for fedora.next are still due on March 3rd. 18:26:18 <mattdm> abadger1999 +1 18:26:24 <notting> abadger1999: +1 18:26:27 <abadger1999> +1 18:26:28 <nirik> sure, +1 18:26:36 <mattdm> (with the understanding that the actual announcement will cover some of the other things discussed blah blah blah) 18:27:01 <sgallagh> abadger1999: +1 18:28:05 <mitr> Were'nt we talking about breaking the tech specs into changes _after_ Mar 3? 18:28:18 <mitr> Or am I just behind on the conversation? 18:28:21 <mattdm> mitr -- yes? april 7th 18:28:41 <dgilmore> +1 18:28:57 <abadger1999> mitr: yeah, that's to some extent fine. And very probably going to happen no matter what. 18:29:07 <dgilmore> abadger1999: though we wont know changes for how fedora is produced for a long time yet 18:29:13 <pjones> abadger1999: +1 18:29:23 <mitr> abadger1999: Agreeing on a deadline that will be ignored "no matter what" is strange 18:29:36 <mattdm> dgilmore I think you are reading that phrase in a more low-level technical sense than is meant 18:29:38 <mitr> Anyhow, this got +7? already 18:29:42 <nirik> #agreed Fedora Changes Process submission deadline for system-wide changes is April 7th. Deadline for true standalone changes will be sometime later than that. Changes to how fedora is produced for fedora.next are still due on March 3rd. (+7,0,0) 18:30:09 <nirik> anything more on this? or move on? 18:30:20 <abadger1999> mitr: My feeling is we wnat to have an outline of "We want these new things" on Mar3rd. fesco and wg's work out details of what is needed to implement those new things between then and april 7th. Have some plans with contingency plans by april 7th. 18:30:21 <dgilmore> mattdm: well there is a difference between how we produce things and what we produce 18:30:36 <dgilmore> I guess abadger1999 meant changes in what we produce 18:30:48 <mitr> abadger1999: An outline is not a set of Change pages. 18:31:05 <abadger1999> mitr: did we ask for Change pages for our March 3rd deadline? 18:31:21 <mattdm> abadger1999 no. a list. 18:31:25 <abadger1999> rihgt. 18:31:32 <mitr> abadger1999: That's how I read that, within the context of the other sentences of the decision. 18:31:40 <mitr> OK, I'm mistaken, let's move on... 18:31:43 <nirik> mitr: I think you are being confused by the overloading of the word 'changes' 18:31:50 <nirik> #topic ticket #1221 Product working group activity reports 18:31:50 <nirik> .fesco 1221 18:31:50 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1221 18:31:52 <zodbot> nirik: #1221 (Product working group activity reports) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1221 18:32:01 <nirik> anything anyone would like to note or discuss? 18:32:37 <mitr> "Biggest topic around Workstation was the plan to use a different installation frontend. That needs to be discussed with the anaconda team, rcm and FESCO by the Workstation WG." 18:32:42 <nirik> I had one query... jwb: what is meant by workstation using a 'different install frontend' ? 18:32:56 <mattdm> #info cloud WG is holding an online activity day on Friday to get the list of changes/requirements into shape for next week's deadline 18:33:21 <nirik> #info server is going to have another meeting thursday to work on it's changes. 18:33:24 <jwb> nirik, unless i can summon mclasen, i will probably have to get back to you on that if you want specifics 18:33:52 <nirik> ok, fair enough. This is just changes to anaconda defaults/paths? or is it being proposed to write an entirely new installer? 18:34:00 <jwb> basically i think the desire is to make an install somehow more scoped to the product installation 18:34:19 <jwb> i've suggested that it be anaconda, with perhaps some work from the WG on a different frontend or plugin to do that 18:34:26 <ajax> i would expect "frontend" here to mean the UI and possibly the defaults 18:34:27 <dgilmore> jwb: beyond different groups and package sets? 18:34:35 <jwb> but i haven't had time to follow up with everyone on this yet 18:34:41 <jwb> dgilmore, yes, beyond that 18:34:43 <jwb> now... 18:34:45 <ajax> if they meant "replace anaconda as kickstart parser and backend" i think they'd have said that 18:34:58 <mattdm> new anaconda design is very amenable to plugins and other little modifications 18:35:11 <nirik> fair enough... 'install frontend' makes me worry someone is talking about writing a new installer. 18:35:19 <jwb> if FESCo wants to enforce anaconda usage across the products to avoid entirely new installers, please say so 18:35:31 <jwb> i don't think that's the intention here, but you could clarify anyway 18:35:38 <pjones> I'm pretty sure we have actually said that in the past. 18:35:55 <ajax> pjones: likewise 18:35:57 <mitr> jwb: pknisrch has explicitly brought this up as "needs to be discussed by FESCo", so we do 18:35:59 <sgallagh> Actually, I'm pretty sure we left that to the Base Design group to assert. 18:36:00 <nirik> could be. I'm happy saying that. ;) 18:36:05 <pjones> sgallagh: no, before that. 18:36:07 <mattdm> I think writing a new installer would be so much crazy work that it would be redundant to forbid it 18:36:23 <sgallagh> mattdm: +1 18:36:32 <pjones> mattdm: and yet there have been mockups produced in the past... 18:36:58 <mitr> mattdm: That's not always stopped people :) 18:37:00 <nirik> in any case, I think customizing the way anaconda presents things/defaults is a great idea for workstation, and one nice thing having products helps us do. 18:37:28 <mitr> Anyway, we should probably wait for either Base or Workstation to bring at least a core of a proposal (or a summary of an agreement :) ) 18:37:36 <pjones> mitr: yeah. 18:38:10 <mitr> Do we want a separate ticket to track this now, or leave this up to Base/Workstation as well for now? 18:38:34 <nirik> I just wanted clarification. I can ask/follow on the workstation mailing list for that 18:38:39 <mattdm> I'm also a little bit reluctant to flat out forbid possible areas of innovation. I think it would be better to give requirements ("must support kickstart" or whatever)... and I think it's best for the base wg to do that. 18:38:43 <sgallagh> nirik: Please do 18:38:53 <abadger1999> sgallagh: We failed to leave that up to Base Design last week for lack of a specific caes... this would be a specific case, though :-) 18:39:20 * nirik is fine letting things move on for a while and get sorted out by the folks we appointed to work on the products. ;) 18:39:32 <pjones> mattdm: if we say "must support kickstart" and that results in a second implementation of kickstart and now we've got compatibility overhead, I'm going to be mighty pissed off. 18:39:53 <mattdm> pjones true. 18:40:05 <mattdm> that was an off-the-cuff example. 18:40:22 <nirik> shall we move on? or is there other stuff we wanted to discuss or ask about? 18:40:37 <sgallagh> nirik: Mind taking an action item on talking to Workstation for clarification? 18:41:04 <nirik> #action nirik to follow progress of different install frontend from workstation 18:41:06 <nirik> ok? 18:41:39 <mattdm> anyone else want to drop some infos for the meeting minutes? 18:41:40 <dgilmore> we rejected box grinder as a suitable tool for making fedora because it didnt take a kickstart as input 18:41:56 <dgilmore> they added commands in comments in the kickstart 18:42:45 <pjones> ew. 18:42:46 <nirik> dgilmore: oh yeah, that was fun. 18:42:46 <dgilmore> I think its well understood that we support kickstart at the core andf that it needs to remain compatable 18:43:25 <mattdm> yes. but that was totally a side-track we shouldn't go into now please 18:43:26 <nirik> #topic ticket #1235 Gnome 3.12 update for F20 18:43:26 <nirik> .fesco 1235 18:43:26 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1235 18:43:26 <nirik> 18:43:29 <zodbot> nirik: #1235 (Gnome 3.12 update for F20) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1235 18:43:51 <mattdm> I think this should be deferred, based on mailing list discussion 18:43:54 <sgallagh> Show of hands: who has been running hughsie's COPR? 18:43:57 <notting> yeah, i think so 18:44:00 * sgallagh raises his hand 18:44:02 <nirik> I'm ok in principal with this, but would want it to go thru a lot of testing. 18:44:08 <mattdm> sgallagh not me -- I'm running rawhide 18:44:10 <nirik> and we don't know the full scope yeah... 18:44:28 <dgilmore> sgallagh: would have to use gnome first 18:44:34 <mattdm> As I said in the ticket, I'm good as long as the extensions effort happens 18:44:44 <sgallagh> dgilmore: I use a *heavily* modded GNOME 3 18:44:57 <sgallagh> Astonishingly, all of my extensions continued to work from 3.10 18:45:04 <sgallagh> That's worth something, at least. 18:45:35 <dgilmore> i think making sure extentions continue to work is a must 18:45:43 <mattdm> sgallagh I've got two that don't out of twelve. 18:45:56 <nirik> if we defer, when do we defer till? 18:46:01 <nirik> when 3.12 is released? 18:46:04 <nirik> before that? 18:46:09 <dgilmore> KDE update to new major releases, I don't think we can stop gnome, but we need to make sure its well tested and all pushed together 18:46:16 <mattdm> nirik until the SIG wants to reopen it? 18:46:30 <mitr> nirik: 1) til the desktop SIG actually ask us about this, 2) I'd kind of like to see answers to my comment#1 18:46:31 <nirik> dgilmore: +1, I agree 18:46:43 <drago01> most of them should work after bumping the number in json ... ones that connect to dbus and use e4x should get updated to use a string for the xml instead (takes about 30 sec to fix) 18:46:46 <mitr> dgilmore: KDE have set this policy in advance 18:46:51 <drago01> but mostly needs testing 18:47:06 <nirik> proposal: defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so. 18:47:10 <dgilmore> mitr: right, which is why we need to make sure that its handled carefully. 18:47:16 <notting> nirik: wfm 18:47:18 <notting> +1 18:47:20 <pjones> mitr: I'm not sure that makes much difference 18:47:21 <mitr> nirik: +1 18:47:23 <dgilmore> but I don't think we can stop it 18:47:40 <dgilmore> nirik: +1 18:47:41 <mitr> pjones: Not sure about "much" either 18:47:43 <mattdm> nirik +1 18:47:55 <pjones> nirik: +1 18:48:28 <mattdm> dgilmore sure we can, but it's better when it doesn't come to that! 18:48:50 <pjones> mattdm: truth 18:48:51 <nirik> #agreed defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so (+6,0,0) 18:48:53 <sgallagh> dgilmore: No one is trying to bludgeon it in 18:48:53 <abadger1999> nirik: +1 18:48:58 <nirik> #undo 18:48:58 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: AGREED by nirik at 18:48:51 : defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so (+6,0,0) 18:49:00 <sgallagh> In fact, I'm very pleased with how they've gone about this. 18:49:07 <nirik> #agreed defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so (+7,0,0) 18:49:09 <sgallagh> +1 to the proposal, FWIW 18:49:16 <nirik> #undo 18:49:16 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: AGREED by nirik at 18:49:07 : defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so (+7,0,0) 18:49:22 <nirik> #agreed defer this for now, revisit when sig asks us to do so (+8,0,0) 18:49:31 <nirik> such a handy thing, undo. ;) 18:49:41 <sgallagh> I wish it applied to more of life... 18:49:51 <nirik> #topic ticket #1237 Graceful handling of guideline violating content 18:49:51 <nirik> .fesco 1237 18:49:51 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1237 18:49:52 <zodbot> nirik: #1237 (Graceful handling of guideline violating content) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1237 18:50:28 <nirik> I think this is a lot of hypothetical. ;) 18:50:44 <mattdm> #proposal: no FESCo change. The FPC could update the guidelines if they want 18:50:47 <sgallagh> I stand by my statement in the ticket. If we've decided it's unacceptable, providing a policy to go around that decision is ridiculous 18:50:58 <dgilmore> sgallagh: indeed 18:51:07 <sgallagh> Let them build from source if they want desperately their penis-icon (or whatever0 18:51:44 <pjones> mattdm: +1 18:51:45 <nirik> mattdm: +1 18:52:18 <sgallagh> Counter-proposal: FESCo recommends that no policy change be made to simplify this. 18:52:41 <nirik> I'm +1 to that too. 18:52:44 <sgallagh> I'm -1 to mattdm on this. 18:52:45 <mitr> mattdm: +1 18:52:47 <dgilmore> +1 18:52:54 <sgallagh> dgilmore: Which? 18:53:16 <mattdm> I'm 0 to sgallagh's :) 18:53:18 <notting> i'm +1 to sgallagh 18:53:38 <mattdm> yay counting! 18:53:49 <dgilmore> sgallagh: FPC changing guidelines is always an option, +1 to recommending no changes be made 18:53:53 <nirik> mattdm: +4/-1, sgallagh: +3 18:53:56 <abadger1999> sgallagh: +1 18:54:07 <mitr> sgallagh: FPC is the right body to handle this in any case; I think we do have some precedent for packaging guidelines to work well with non-Fedora use cases, so there's little reason to _forbid_ this, though why would anyone want to spend time on having such a policy is a mystery to me 18:54:21 <nirik> so I think that gives sgallagh's +5? 18:54:56 <sgallagh> mitr: Was that a +1 to my statement? 18:55:13 <mitr> sgallagh: That was -1 18:55:30 <abadger1999> nirik: it's hard to tell but I think it's +5 if sgallagh is +1 to his own proposal. 18:55:40 <sgallagh> I'm +1 to my own, yes 18:56:03 <nirik> mitr / mattdm: so you object to us telling FPC not to change this? or ? 18:56:04 <mitr> sgallagh: But I think I'll go with "whatever means FESCo won't spend more time on this" 18:56:14 <notting> i'm +1 to mattdm as well 18:56:35 <abadger1999> +1 mattdm too. 18:56:38 * nirik notes sgallagh's proposal is 'reccommends' not 'orders' 18:56:47 * sgallagh nods 18:56:50 <mitr> nirik: I think this is in FPCs jurisdiction, and giving users such a choice is in principle not objectionable to me. I fully expect FPC to refuse. 18:56:51 <nirik> so, perhaps we can come up with one proposal everyone can agree on? 18:57:09 <mattdm> #proposal: no FESCo change. The FPC could update the guidelines if they want, but FESCo recommends that no change be made 18:57:19 <mitr> +1 18:57:20 <abadger1999> +1 18:57:21 <pjones> mattdm: +1 18:57:22 <nirik> +1 18:57:32 <sgallagh> nirik: I think we basically just agreed with "No FESCo change. The FPC could update the guidelines if they want. FESCo recommends that no policy change be made to simplify this." 18:57:46 <sgallagh> mattdm: +1 18:57:55 <mattdm> +1 myself to make the counting easier :) 18:58:07 <nirik> dgilmore / notting ? 18:58:14 <notting> +1 18:58:49 <pjones> I'm still for this proposal, but there's some degree to which we maybe want to say that disagreements with FPC rulings need to be less of "mommy says no ask daddy". 18:58:59 <dgilmore> +1 18:59:04 <nirik> #agreed no FESCo change. The FPC could update the guidelines if they want, but FESCo recommends that no change be made (+8,0,0) 18:59:26 <nirik> #topic ticket #1238 Should Bodhi reset karma to 0 when builds are changed? 18:59:26 <nirik> .fesco 1238 18:59:26 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1238 18:59:28 <zodbot> nirik: #1238 (Should Bodhi reset karma to 0 when builds are changed?) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1238 18:59:36 <nirik> +1 to reset here. 18:59:40 <nirik> t8m was +1 in ticket 18:59:53 <notting> it makes sense to me. +1 18:59:55 <pjones> +1 18:59:57 * mattdm had no idea this wasn't the way it already worked 18:59:58 <mattdm> +`1 19:00:00 <nirik> mitr was also +1, but is here too. ;) 19:00:11 <pjones> mattdm: yeah, likewise. 19:00:11 <dgilmore> +1 to reset 19:00:14 <mitr> Yes, +1 19:00:27 <sgallagh> -1 (I have reasons) 19:00:40 <mattdm> sgallagh let's hear em! 19:00:43 <dgilmore> bodhi needs a lot of work 19:00:49 <nirik> there's always one person in a crowd. ;) 19:00:49 <dgilmore> sgallagh: indeed please share 19:00:58 <sgallagh> First of all, we already have a system that rarely gets sufficient karma to begin with. 19:01:13 <mattdm> dgilmore top priority after taskotron and hyperkitty :) 19:01:23 <pjones> sgallagh: irrelevant, if the karma isn't for the thing on the update. 19:01:27 <sgallagh> By resetting positive karma when an update is updated, we're telling people that the time they spent to vote on it was wasted 19:01:59 <sgallagh> I can see people who voted negatively being inclined to retest and change to positive if their issue is fixed. 19:02:00 <pjones> I mean that's unfortunate, but you're making "we can't get enough testing" an argument for ignoring that we haven't got enough testing. 19:02:22 <sgallagh> No, I'm using "my testing is ignored, so why bother" as an argument 19:02:31 <nirik> so, making testers happy is more important than actually producing tested things ? ;) 19:02:34 <sgallagh> I think this change will actively reduce the willingness of testers 19:02:52 <mattdm> I don't get why it correlates to "my testing is ignored" 19:02:56 <sgallagh> It provides a negative-feedback response to good behavior 19:03:04 <mattdm> testing was useful for previous thing, and now there is a new thing 19:03:09 <mattdm> new thing is different from old thing. 19:03:21 <nirik> another chance to test! 19:03:26 <sgallagh> mattdm: "Nothing I cared about changed, but now I have to update the karma again?" 19:03:28 <mattdm> more badges! 19:03:39 <pjones> I agree we need to make testing more appealing and plausibly even make it /seem/ more rewarding, but misapplying old tests is a really bad way to do that. 19:03:41 <dgilmore> sgallagh: we have no way to know that 19:03:42 <mattdm> sgallagh How do you know nothing you cared about changed? Maybe it is broken now. 19:03:46 <sgallagh> There are a LOT of Bodhi updates out there with many packages in them 19:03:50 <mattdm> pjones +1 19:04:08 <sgallagh> Do we reset testing to zero if one of the GNOME mega-updates changes one of the lesser-known applications? 19:04:12 <notting> i think it needs to be a requirement to reset to 0 if autokarma is used. doesn't need to be overall, but if that makes it simplest.... 19:04:20 <dgilmore> sgallagh: we should 19:04:23 <nirik> yes. 19:04:49 <sgallagh> I'd rather see "negative karma is reset to zero" than "all karma is reset to zero" 19:05:05 <mattdm> sgallagh In Glorious Future Bodhi 2, there are more fine-grained reports you can make, and maybe those won't all need to be reset 19:05:07 <pjones> °_O 19:05:12 <abadger1999> +1 to reset 19:05:19 <pjones> positive karma is the fiction here. 19:05:22 <nirik> mattdm: right. 19:05:35 <pjones> negative karma is the part that's not dangerous, even though it might no longer apply. 19:05:51 <pjones> false positives enable releasing software that's broken. 19:06:11 <mattdm> and paper over things being untested with what looks like positive test feedback 19:06:12 <dgilmore> sgallagh: id rather make it easy and rewarding for someone to say yes its still working 19:06:16 <sgallagh> Ok, fair point. I was trying to find a compromise, but I think I'm just going to go back to disagreeing with resetting 19:06:22 <mattdm> dgilmore +1,000,000 19:06:30 <sgallagh> dgilmore: Sure, but our current system discourages that 19:06:36 <nirik> anyhow, I guess we agree to disagree and move on? or is there either sides that are wanting to change votes? 19:06:40 <sgallagh> Right now, it's generally a *hassle* to set karma even once 19:06:43 * mattdm hands out more badges 19:06:57 <sgallagh> If we start telling people "Now you have to do it multiple times for the same update", they're just going to stop bothering. 19:06:58 <pjones> nirik: mattdm has given you the "agree to disagree and move on" badge. 19:07:02 <nirik> badge: retested a edited update 19:07:09 <mattdm> lol 19:07:14 <nirik> :) 19:07:35 <dgilmore> i see retest badges 19:07:39 <pjones> sgallagh: it's worth noting that several of the people in this conversation /thought that was the status quo/ 19:07:47 <nirik> #agreed FESCo agrees that karma should be reset when packages are edited in an update (+8,-1,0) 19:07:52 <sgallagh> Can we please solve the karma-reporting problem first? Maybe work with the desktop folks on a better UI? 19:08:03 <nirik> sgallagh: there's a gui in review I think? 19:08:20 <sgallagh> nirik: I'd love to hear more about that (offline) 19:08:28 <nirik> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1020839 19:08:35 <nirik> #topic Next weeks chair 19:08:40 <nirik> who wants it? 19:08:43 <notting> i'll do it 19:09:00 <nirik> #info notting to chair next week 19:09:02 <nirik> thanks notting 19:09:06 <nirik> #topic Open Floor 19:09:12 <nirik> any items for open floor? 19:10:00 <sgallagh> General question for the WGs: Are you in good shape for the deliverable next week? 19:10:21 <sgallagh> Answering for Server WG, I think it's going to be tight, but I hope our planned meeting tomorrow gets us there. 19:10:24 <mattdm> #info retester badge idea! https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-badges/ticket/251 19:10:49 <mattdm> sgallagh Cloud WG will be good after our frantic activity day on friday :) 19:11:01 <nirik> mattdm: now you can get that badge for suggesting a badge. (If you didn't already have it) 19:11:28 <sgallagh> I think they only give that one out if your badge is accepted. 19:11:34 <mattdm> nirik _So_ already there. 19:11:35 <nirik> right. 19:12:03 <abadger1999> sgallagh: Thought on that -- it's okay to send a list that doesn't have all the deliverables scoped out... better to have a list and idea of how important it is to your plans for f21 and we can work on how long/who needs to be involved after that. 19:12:25 <sgallagh> abadger1999: Fair points 19:12:28 <nirik> communicate early and often, IMHO. 19:12:34 <abadger1999> nirik: +1 19:12:46 <dgilmore> abadger1999: I think so 19:13:28 <dgilmore> having an idea of whats needed will help others to say oh you need foo as well etc 19:13:50 <dgilmore> for instance cloud gets an install tree and media 19:14:09 <dgilmore> because its needed to make other deliverables and will let others make cloud images 19:14:50 <nirik> me nods. 19:15:00 <nirik> ok, if nothing else, will close out in a minute... 19:16:10 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone! 19:16:13 <nirik> #endmeeting

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[Fwd: Meeting Minutes / February 25, 2014]
by Adam Williamson 25 Feb '14

25 Feb '14

-- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net

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meetingminutes February 2014