We need an icon to be used on the desktop which is associated with SELinux. The first intended use would be the icon associated with setroubleshoot to indicate you have an SELinux issue to deal with.
In the interim we've been using Tux with a badge, but we can't use Tux because of legal constraints (however, lets not go down that rathole in this thread :-).
We can't use a police badge because that's very close to the icon used for consolehelper root access.
So far we've come up with:
* Traffic Light (indicates stop/go).
* Crossed swords
* Bobby hat (English policeman)
We would like some suggestions, anybody have a good idea? Just remember it has to be identifiable at small sizes. Images associated with the NSA probably won't get warm feelings in a variety of places.
John Dennis wrote:
We need an icon to be used on the desktop which is associated with SELinux. The first intended use would be the icon associated with setroubleshoot to indicate you have an SELinux issue to deal with.
In the interim we've been using Tux with a badge, but we can't use Tux because of legal constraints (however, lets not go down that rathole in this thread :-).
We can't use a police badge because that's very close to the icon used for consolehelper root access.
So far we've come up with:
Traffic Light (indicates stop/go).
Crossed swords
Bobby hat (English policeman)
We would like some suggestions, anybody have a good idea? Just remember it has to be identifiable at small sizes. Images associated with the NSA probably won't get warm feelings in a variety of places.
Images associated with NSA won't go over well ? Hrmm.... maybe this is a *detailed* look and feel.... how about a star fish, inside an unbroken circle ?
(It is ready made for O'Reilly ;-)
PPS: The crossed swords have my vote, if you don't like the starfish.
That, or you put the starfish inside a pentagon.....instead of an unbroken circle, just different enough from the original to be unique. It would then symbolize "isolation and containment".... aligning the stars legs to the corners of the pentagon, isolating each 5th of the pentagon from the other.
Both are recognizable, but not too similar to familiar logo's among the puzzle palace crowd.
(James Bamford, I am not.)
Of course, you could use the silhouette of a piece of a jigsaw puzzle..... maybe with 5 "connectors", but that would be too obscure...
Or, yet still, combine the elements, a jigsaw puzzle piece, with a starfish, inside a pentagon, on the surface of the puzzle piece. ;-)
Of course, there is the idea of a simple old fashioned "Flask" as a logo...... maybe even an antique flask, like a goatskin wine canteen (Zahato). That idea has some style....
</.02c ALT="To be taken with a grain of salt, and a little imagination.">
Richard Irving wrote:
John Dennis wrote:
We need an icon to be used on the desktop which is associated with SELinux. The first intended use would be the icon associated with setroubleshoot to indicate you have an SELinux issue to deal with.
In the interim we've been using Tux with a badge, but we can't use Tux because of legal constraints (however, lets not go down that rathole in this thread :-).
Rathole? I thought Tux is a penguin... ;-)
We can't use a police badge because that's very close to the icon used for consolehelper root access.
So far we've come up with:
Traffic Light (indicates stop/go).
Crossed swords
Bobby hat (English policeman)
We would like some suggestions, anybody have a good idea? Just remember it has to be identifiable at small sizes. Images associated with the NSA probably won't get warm feelings in a variety of places.
It seems to me that (notwithstanding the political overtones) this position would be denying their significant contributions to this effort. Not just the organization as an entity, but that of key individuals.
Images associated with NSA won't go over well ? Hrmm.... maybe this is a *detailed* look and feel.... how about a star fish, inside an unbroken circle ?
(It is ready made for O'Reilly ;-)
O'Reilly already has their SELinux cover imagery (see McCarty's book) with Civil War era soldiers... :-)
Though one could go further back than that in U.S. history to Paul Revere and the "Mechanics"...
PPS: The crossed swords have my vote, if you don't like the starfish.
That, or you put the starfish inside a pentagon.....instead of an unbroken circle, just different enough from the original to be unique. It would then symbolize "isolation and containment".... aligning the stars legs to the corners of the pentagon, isolating each 5th of the pentagon from the other.
Both are recognizable, but not too similar to familiar logo's among the puzzle palace crowd.
(James Bamford, I am not.)
Of course, you could use the silhouette of a piece of a jigsaw puzzle..... maybe with 5 "connectors", but that would be too obscure...
Or, yet still, combine the elements, a jigsaw puzzle piece, with a starfish, inside a pentagon, on the surface of the puzzle piece. ;-)
Of course, there is the idea of a simple old fashioned "Flask" as a logo...... maybe even an antique flask, like a goatskin wine canteen (Zahato). That idea has some style....
Filled with a good single malt?
</.02c ALT="To be taken with a grain of salt, and a little imagination.">
Some interesting ideas.
How about this one:
A gold key, the shape of which is consistent with the key in the NSA logo being held onto by the eagle. Superimposed over the key is a red exclamation point or perhaps a red "I" information bubble icon.
That's my 0.02 cents (or 0.0222 CD) ;-)
Marc Schwartz
On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 10:22 -0500, Marc Schwartz wrote:
We would like some suggestions, anybody have a good idea? Just remember it has to be identifiable at small sizes. Images associated with the NSA probably won't get warm feelings in a variety of places.
It seems to me that (notwithstanding the political overtones) this position would be denying their significant contributions to this effort. Not just the organization as an entity, but that of key individuals.
I did not mean to denigrate the contributions of the NSA nor anyone associated with it, rather I wanted draw attention to the power of images. Previous threads which considered a logo or icon for SELinux often saw suggestions related to the NSA, but this would be problematic.
Perception is key in selecting iconography. Any visible suggestion that the software which has been installed on a user's system could be related to NSA monitoring will create barriers to acceptance. We're trying to dismantle the acceptance barriers, not erect new ones. Those of us involved in SELinux work clearly understand the technology has nothing to do with NSA monitoring but that is of little value when countering public perception fueled by uninformed conclusions. Bear in mind the iconography will be viewed not just by Linux geeks familiar with the technology and its history but potentially by any desktop user, domestic and international for whom this may be their first visible introduction to the technology. We don't want them to draw the false conclusion the NSA has tentacles into their private computer.
On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 12:30 -0400, John Dennis wrote:
On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 10:22 -0500, Marc Schwartz wrote:
We would like some suggestions, anybody have a good idea? Just remember it has to be identifiable at small sizes. Images associated with the NSA probably won't get warm feelings in a variety of places.
It seems to me that (notwithstanding the political overtones) this position would be denying their significant contributions to this effort. Not just the organization as an entity, but that of key individuals.
I did not mean to denigrate the contributions of the NSA nor anyone associated with it, rather I wanted draw attention to the power of images. Previous threads which considered a logo or icon for SELinux often saw suggestions related to the NSA, but this would be problematic.
Perception is key in selecting iconography. Any visible suggestion that the software which has been installed on a user's system could be related to NSA monitoring will create barriers to acceptance. We're trying to dismantle the acceptance barriers, not erect new ones. Those of us involved in SELinux work clearly understand the technology has nothing to do with NSA monitoring but that is of little value when countering public perception fueled by uninformed conclusions. Bear in mind the iconography will be viewed not just by Linux geeks familiar with the technology and its history but potentially by any desktop user, domestic and international for whom this may be their first visible introduction to the technology. We don't want them to draw the false conclusion the NSA has tentacles into their private computer.
John,
I appreciate the position. I did not mean to infer that the icon(s) needed to be overt representations based upon their logo, which in turn is tied to the commonality of official U.S. government logos.
Something more subtle would still seem acceptable without invoking negative reactions, here and abroad.
At some point, most security related iconography is going to be related to the fundamental issues inherent in this discussion, whether they be some form of badge/shield (police or military), swords (or more generally, weapons of some type) or something similar.
That's why I referenced the key. It is something of a more general security symbol, while still tying back to the NSA in a more subtle fashion.
As someone smarter than I once said:
"Facts are negotiable, perception is reality"
Having a daughter who just returned from spending five weeks in northern Uganda working with Invisible Children, I can certainly appreciate the power and impact of images...
Thanks John.
Regards,
Marc
I propose an Horus eye since selinux checks the system against forbidden accesses. I haven't the faintest idea if it's used by the NSA or anyone else (probably - it's an old a well-known symbol)
Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
I propose an Horus eye since selinux checks the system against forbidden accesses. I haven't the faintest idea if it's used by the NSA or anyone else (probably - it's an old a well-known symbol)
Talk about "noiding the masses out", even kindly fatherly Darpa had to drop that from their "Scientia Est Potentia" campaign.... :-P
McCarthyism, "born again" or not, is a double edged sword at best.
I wonder who will deliver the "Have you no shame ?" speech *this* time... ;-P
(Were these different times, your idea has merit... alas...)
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Marc Schwartz wrote:
Richard Irving wrote:
Of course, there is the idea of a simple old fashioned "Flask" as a logo...... maybe even an antique flask, like a goatskin wine canteen (Zahato). That idea has some style....
Filled with a good single malt?
Only if it has been *properly* aged in a burnt oak barrel. ;-)
</.02c ALT="To be taken with a grain of salt, and a little imagination.">
Some interesting ideas.
How about this one:
A gold key, the shape of which is consistent with the key in the NSA logo being held onto by the eagle. Superimposed over the key is a red exclamation point or perhaps a red "I" information bubble icon.
I like that. I also like the black and white alternating pentacle on the edge of the seal, it is distinctive symbol.
How about combining idea's, as long as they still work at the icon level.....
The flask (Bota) has an outline that conforms with many of the PHI curves, such as the nautilus, that trademark the Unix philosophy... (debian logo, the snail shell.... etc.)
So does the pentacle, obviously. (Although, not -curves-...)
A: The bota flask, with the alternating black and white pentacle, on the side.... with the Key superimposed over the pentacle... gives one an excuse to make the key "Golden", as well.... (this is rather simple)
B: Or, the Golden key about to be inserted into a lock, the keyhole is located in the center of an alternating pentacle, perhaps in the interior pentagon.... With a golden or red capital "I", as the keyhole.... but the lock outline, describing the symbol PHI, using the I (the keyhole) as the center I of the phi symbol. (The outline of the lock forming the oblong O around the I) (this, a little more complex...)
Another .02c, dreams are cheap. :-)
That's my 0.02 cents (or 0.0222 CD) ;-)
Marc Schwartz
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On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 12:45 -0400, Richard Irving wrote:
Marc Schwartz wrote:
Richard Irving wrote:
Of course, there is the idea of a simple old fashioned "Flask" as a logo...... maybe even an antique flask, like a goatskin wine canteen (Zahato). That idea has some style....
Filled with a good single malt?
Only if it has been *properly* aged in a burnt oak barrel. ;-)
Burnt oak barrels previously used to age Sherry... ;-)
Some interesting ideas.
How about this one:
A gold key, the shape of which is consistent with the key in the NSA logo being held onto by the eagle. Superimposed over the key is a red exclamation point or perhaps a red "I" information bubble icon.
I like that. I also like the black and white alternating pentacle onthe edge of the seal, it is distinctive symbol.
How about combining idea's, as long as they still work at the icon level.....
The flask (Bota) has an outline that conforms with many of the PHIcurves, such as the nautilus, that trademark the Unix philosophy... (debian logo, the snail shell.... etc.)
So does the pentacle, obviously. (Although, not -curves-...)
A: The bota flask, with the alternating black and white pentacle, on the side.... with the Key superimposed over the pentacle... gives one an excuse to make the key "Golden", as well.... (this is rather simple)
B: Or, the Golden key about to be inserted into a lock, the keyhole is located in the center of an alternating pentacle, perhaps in the interior pentagon.... With a golden or red capital "I", as the keyhole.... but the lock outline, describing the symbol PHI, using the I (the keyhole) as the center I of the phi symbol. (The outline of the lock forming the oblong O around the I) (this, a little more complex...)
Phine ideas! ;-)
Another .02c, dreams are cheap. :-)
Yes, but turning them in to reality is hard work indeed... :-)
Cheers,
Marc
How about an alligator?
knute...
We need an icon to be used on the desktop which is associated with SELinux. The first intended use would be the icon associated with setroubleshoot to indicate you have an SELinux issue to deal with.
In the interim we've been using Tux with a badge, but we can't use Tux because of legal constraints (however, lets not go down that rathole in this thread :-).
We can't use a police badge because that's very close to the icon used for consolehelper root access.
So far we've come up with:
Traffic Light (indicates stop/go).
Crossed swords
Bobby hat (English policeman)
We would like some suggestions, anybody have a good idea? Just remember it has to be identifiable at small sizes. Images associated with the NSA probably won't get warm feelings in a variety of places. -- John Dennis jdennis@redhat.com Red Hat Inc.
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Knute Johnson wrote:
How about an alligator?
knute...
Hrmm.... a fresh idea. Interesting.
A subtle derivative might be a Gecko in a London Fog, with the collar turned up....
But, I digress.... ;-)
FWIW, I still like incorporating the "Key" idea, so far... I also like the "wine flask" (Bota) idea, but the black and white alternating pentacle, like the Horus Eye, may be over the top... then again, maybe not... it is a little more subtle.
Another .02c. </noise><signal>
Le Jeu 31 août 2006 01:54, Richard Irving a écrit :
FWIW, I still like incorporating the "Key" idea, so far... I also like the "wine flask" (Bota) idea, but the black and white alternating pentacle, like the Horus Eye, may be over the top... then again, maybe not... it is a little more subtle.
Note that the original Horus Eye was painted on boats to protect them, which is exactly what selinux does. The spy associations came much later
Le Jeu 31 août 2006 11:03, Nicolas Mailhot a écrit :
Le Jeu 31 août 2006 01:54, Richard Irving a écrit :
FWIW, I still like incorporating the "Key" idea, so far... I also like the "wine flask" (Bota) idea, but the black and white alternating pentacle, like the Horus Eye, may be over the top... then again, maybe not... it is a little more subtle.
Note that the original Horus Eye was painted on boats to protect them, which is exactly what selinux does. The spy associations came much later
(and you can probably disambiguate the meaning by drawing a trireme prow around it)
What about something with a honeycomb structure, to suggest the compartmented nature of an SELinux system?
Keys suggest crypto.
- James
Daniel J Walsh wrote:
James Morris wrote:
What about something with a honeycomb structure, to suggest the compartmented nature of an SELinux system?
Keys suggest crypto.
- James
Another suggestion would be a shield, think Middle Ages.
How about something like a Tux with a sword and shield.
http://www.barelyfitz.com/services/3d/tux-frontpage.jpg
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Andy Suchoski wrote:
Daniel J Walsh wrote:
James Morris wrote:
What about something with a honeycomb structure, to suggest the compartmented nature of an SELinux system?
Keys suggest crypto.
- James
Another suggestion would be a shield, think Middle Ages.
How about something like a Tux with a sword and shield.
Cute but Tux/Penquins are not allowed. Also they want to avoid hats.
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On Thursday 31 August 2006 10:03am, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
Andy Suchoski wrote:
[snip]
Cute but Tux/Penquins are not allowed. Also they want to avoid hats.
How about a maze with paths that lead to "rooms" inside, but no connections between the separate paths.
The rooms could even have something in them to indicate they are "serving" different things.
The outer wall could look like a computer case or motherboard.
Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
On Thursday 31 August 2006 10:03am, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
Andy Suchoski wrote:
[snip]
Cute but Tux/Penquins are not allowed. Also they want to avoid hats.
How about a maze with paths that lead to "rooms" inside, but no connections between the separate paths.
The rooms could even have something in them to indicate they are "serving" different things.
The outer wall could look like a computer case or motherboard.
that wont work as a small icon
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On Thursday 31 August 2006 10:50am, dragoran wrote:
Lamont R. Peterson wrote:
On Thursday 31 August 2006 10:03am, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
Andy Suchoski wrote:
[snip]
Cute but Tux/Penquins are not allowed. Also they want to avoid hats.
How about a maze with paths that lead to "rooms" inside, but no connections between the separate paths.
The rooms could even have something in them to indicate they are "serving" different things.
The outer wall could look like a computer case or motherboard.
that wont work as a small icon
You have a good point, there. It would have to be kept simple. It could work as a small icon, by just drawing only a small part, such as only 2 rooms with short paths and let the rest "fade out" into the "distance" (i.e., let further walls be truncated).
I realized while I was suggesting it that this could easily become too complicated to work well for an icon type logo. Still, I put the idea out there, we just have to suppress our tendency to want to see the whole big picture at once and, instead, just zoom in to show only enough to clearly see that which sets SELinux apart (pun intended).
On Thursday 31 August 2006 09:35am, Daniel J Walsh wrote: [snip]
Another suggestion would be a shield, think Middle Ages.
That reminds me of the AppArmor logo. Probably not a good idea because of that parallel.
Thank you everyone for your wonderful suggestions, it's been a treat to read though and consider. I tried to condense and summarize the thread with some editorial prerogative with the hope of narrowing things down so we can get a few images to review. If you have artistic skills and would like to submit a contribution that would be wonderful. We'll also take a few take a couple of ideas to our graphic artist Diana Fong and see what she comes up with.
Some of the suggestions, at least for me, did not intuitively invoke an association with protection (e.g. the bota flask). Other suggestions seemed too generic leaving one wondering without ambiguity what the image was trying to tell me, e.g. watching eyes, keys in locks, shields, etc. While some of these images do in fact invoke the notion of protection they've also become quite overloaded, e.g is the icon for my virus protection?, my key ring?, my authentication logon? etc. It has to somehow be distinctively unique so the user does not confuse it with something else. More to the point we also want to train people to associate the image with SELinux exclusively, I don't think we can do that with something like a key in a lock. Finally we should bear in mind the audience will be international.
Let's do a straw poll vote:
A) Star fish inscribed in a circle (pentagon)
B) Golden key inscribed in a pentagon
C) Mousetrap
D) Gecko in a trench coat with the collar turned up
E) Crossed swords
Here is some of the contextual background:
Richard Irving:
how about a star fish, inside an unbroken circle ?
starfish inside a pentagon.instead of an unbroken circle, just different enough from the original to be unique. It would then symbolize "isolation and containment".... aligning the stars legs to the corners of the pentagon, isolating each 5th of the pentagon from the other.
there is the idea of a simple old fashioned "Flask" ...
The flask (Bota) has an outline that conforms with many of the PHI curves, such as the nautilus, that trademark the Unix philosophy... (debian logo, the snail shell.... etc.) So does the pentacle, obviously.
The bota flask, with the alternating black and white pentacle, on the side with the Key superimposed over the pentacle... gives one an excuse to make the key "Golden", as well.... (this is rather simple)
I also like the black and white alternating pentacle on the edge of the seal, it is distinctive symbol.
The Golden key about to be inserted into a lock, the keyhole is located in the center of an alternating pentacle, perhaps in the interior pentagon. With a golden or red capital "I", as the keyhole.... but the lock outline, describing the symbol PHI, using the I (the keyhole) as the center I of the phi symbol. (The outline of the lock forming the oblong O around the I)
A subtle derivative might be a Gecko in a London Fog, with the collar turned up....
PPS: The crossed swords have my vote, if you don't like the starfish.
Marc Schwartz
A gold key, the shape of which is consistent with the key in the NSA logo being held onto by the eagle. Superimposed over the key is a red exclamation point or perhaps a red "I" information bubble icon.
Nicolas Mailhot
I propose an Horus eye since selinux checks the system against forbidden accesses.
How about a comics-like mousetrap squeezing a bad guy (complete with mask/scarf/black fedora/whatever) ?
James Morris
What about something with a honeycomb structure, to suggest the compartmented nature of an SELinux system?
Dan Walsh
Another suggestion would be a shield, think Middle Ages.
On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 09:55 -0400, John Dennis wrote:
Let's do a straw poll vote:
A) Star fish inscribed in a circle (pentagon)
B) Golden key inscribed in a pentagon
C) Mousetrap
D) Gecko in a trench coat with the collar turned up
E) Crossed swords
The starfish inscribed in a circle reminds me of the badge worn by sheriffs in westerns, but that might too cultural and possibly too generic. The mousetrap and gecko are cool, fun, playful and don't have other strong associations, I like them. But my vote probably goes for B, it seems to strike the right balance between existing associations, is uniquely different, maintains dignity, and would be recognizable at small sizes.
At 10:03 AM -0400 9/1/06, John Dennis wrote:
On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 09:55 -0400, John Dennis wrote:
Let's do a straw poll vote:
A) Star fish inscribed in a circle (pentagon)
B) Golden key inscribed in a pentagon
C) Mousetrap
D) Gecko in a trench coat with the collar turned up
E) Crossed swords
The starfish inscribed in a circle reminds me of the badge worn by sheriffs in westerns, but that might too cultural and possibly too generic. The mousetrap and gecko are cool, fun, playful and don't have other strong associations, I like them. But my vote probably goes for B, it seems to strike the right balance between existing associations, is uniquely different, maintains dignity, and would be recognizable at small sizes.
I expect that pentagons are out, because of the association with the US Department of Defense.
How about an exterior window showing a (view of a room with a) barred interior door? That derives from the SELinux metaphor that even if "they" get in through the windows, the doors to other rooms are still locked. That should be doable as an icon, and recognizable as the same icon when shown as a small icon. It would have lots of right-angles, so even I could draw one.
selinux@lists.fedoraproject.org
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