Hi All,
Fedora 29
Xfce 4.13
I have a customer interested in me putting Fedora 29 on a laptop.
Problem: Xfce 4.13 is too buggy to release on the general public. Me, I am loyal and know how to cope with the bugs, but a typical user, I would not wish that on them.
Is 4.14 anywhere near?
If not, is there a way to lock Fedora 29 into Xfce 4.12?
If not, I guess Mate would be the closest alternative. I could always go with gnome, but it has a bad case of the weirds.
Many thanks, -T
ToddAndMargo via users writes:
Hi All,
Fedora 29
Xfce 4.13
I have a customer interested in me putting Fedora 29 on a laptop.
Problem: Xfce 4.13 is too buggy to release on the general public. Me, I am loyal and know how to cope with the bugs, but a typical user, I would not wish that on them.
The only bug I'm aware of is the cursor pointer flickering, which is not even xfce's fault, but buggy Gnome code.
xfce 4.13 has been fine for me.
On 3/29/19 6:34 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
xfce 4.13 has been fine for me.
4.13 has been a pain in my neck:
Libre Office pulses at me https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14863
Black backgrounds in panels https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=50266#p50266
Panel 0 is missing https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=50418#p50418
Clicking on MTP device crashes Thunar https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15172
Default browser does not work https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15238
AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
ToddAndMargo via users writes:
On 3/29/19 6:34 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
xfce 4.13 has been fine for me.
4.13 has been a pain in my neck:
Libre Office pulses at me https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14863
That's the one that I find the most annoying. But it's not a showstopper.
Black backgrounds in panels https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=50266#p50266
I've noticed some occasional glitches like that.
I guess that my standards are pretty low. I don't mind minor, non-critical bugs like this, and just write it off as a cost of doing business.
Clicking on MTP device crashes Thunar https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15172
That's probably the only one I'd consider to be a showstopper. Reminds me of a bug that tipped the scales for me in the other direction: way back when, Gnome's file manager decided one day that my usb-storage mp3 player was an MTP device. Hillarity ensued. The bug collected dust for a year, before I ditched Gnome and went with XFCE, after I noticed that the lightweight XFCE build I installed on a netbook happily mounted the same MP3 player.
Ditching the unusable "usability-improved" Gnome 3 was also a bonus. Never looked back.
Default browser does not work https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15238
AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
I don't think there's a viable way to down or upgrade xfce. If it was only one RPM, I would seriously look into rebuilding it. But it's quite a few dependencies, and probably a whole pile of packages needs to be rebuilt.
If I were to try this experiment, this is how I would proceed (of course, its unrealistic to expect Joe sixpack to put up with this, I understand this):
1) Grab the newer XFCE base library package, and attempt to hack the current XFCE source rpm to build it. There's a reasonable chance all that needs to be done is to bump the version number in the source RPM. Assuming that the rebuild succeeds (and if not, one will simply have to figure out why, and there's no cookie-cutter recipe for that, you're way off the beaten path): I would try a test upgrade, using rpm with the --test option.
2) I would actually think that a dependency failure would be the best result. This will tell you which packages need to be rebuilt next. At this time I would switch to mock, install the upgraded xfce packages in a mock buildroot, and proceed to attempt to build the newer RPM of each package.
3) If there wasn't a dependency failure, I would proceed cautiously. Upgrading the base package would be ok, but it may or may not solve your issues, in which case you'll have to guess which next part of the stack you want to upgrade.
If I were to proceed at all, I would go the upgrade rather than a downgrade root. After downgrading, dnf will keep wanting to upgrade xfce every time. I think there's a way to lock it.
One possible answer to this conundrum is the modular Fedora effort. I've only been following it with half an ear, but at least on paper it seems to address this very issue: offer alternative version of Fedora components. But someone has to volunteer to maintain all of that stuff, of course…
On 3/29/19 7:32 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
ToddAndMargo via users writes:
On 3/29/19 6:34 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
xfce 4.13 has been fine for me.
4.13 has been a pain in my neck:
Libre Office pulses at me https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14863
That's the one that I find the most annoying. But it's not a showstopper.
Black backgrounds in panels https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=50266#p50266
I've noticed some occasional glitches like that.
I guess that my standards are pretty low. I don't mind minor, non-critical bugs like this, and just write it off as a cost of doing business.
Clicking on MTP device crashes Thunar https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15172
That's probably the only one I'd consider to be a showstopper. Reminds me of a bug that tipped the scales for me in the other direction: way back when, Gnome's file manager decided one day that my usb-storage mp3 player was an MTP device. Hillarity ensued. The bug collected dust for a year, before I ditched Gnome and went with XFCE, after I noticed that the lightweight XFCE build I installed on a netbook happily mounted the same MP3 player.
Ditching the unusable "usability-improved" Gnome 3 was also a bonus. Never looked back.
Default browser does not work https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15238
AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
I don't think there's a viable way to down or upgrade xfce. If it was only one RPM, I would seriously look into rebuilding it. But it's quite a few dependencies, and probably a whole pile of packages needs to be rebuilt.
If I were to try this experiment, this is how I would proceed (of course, its unrealistic to expect Joe sixpack to put up with this, I understand this):
- Grab the newer XFCE base library package, and attempt to hack the
current XFCE source rpm to build it. There's a reasonable chance all that needs to be done is to bump the version number in the source RPM. Assuming that the rebuild succeeds (and if not, one will simply have to figure out why, and there's no cookie-cutter recipe for that, you're way off the beaten path): I would try a test upgrade, using rpm with the --test option.
- I would actually think that a dependency failure would be the best
result. This will tell you which packages need to be rebuilt next. At this time I would switch to mock, install the upgraded xfce packages in a mock buildroot, and proceed to attempt to build the newer RPM of each package.
- If there wasn't a dependency failure, I would proceed cautiously.
Upgrading the base package would be ok, but it may or may not solve your issues, in which case you'll have to guess which next part of the stack you want to upgrade.
If I were to proceed at all, I would go the upgrade rather than a downgrade root. After downgrading, dnf will keep wanting to upgrade xfce every time. I think there's a way to lock it.
One possible answer to this conundrum is the modular Fedora effort. I've only been following it with half an ear, but at least on paper it seems to address this very issue: offer alternative version of Fedora components. But someone has to volunteer to maintain all of that stuff, of course…
For me, I adore Xfce and know how to put up with 4.13 (odd numbers are testing releases).
For customers, I would not let 4.13 loose on them. I will probably use Mate instead.
ToddAndMargo via users writes:
For me, I adore Xfce and know how to put up with 4.13 (odd numbers are testing releases).
For customers, I would not let 4.13 loose on them. I will probably use Mate instead.
So, skip the corresponding Fedora release. F28 is still good enough. Or, bribe someone to maintain an XFCE 4.14 Fedora module.
On 3/29/19 8:22 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
ToddAndMargo via users writes:
For me, I adore Xfce and know how to put up with 4.13 (odd numbers are testing releases).
For customers, I would not let 4.13 loose on them. I will probably use Mate instead.
So, skip the corresponding Fedora release. F28 is still good enough. Or, bribe someone to maintain an XFCE 4.14 Fedora module.
The Xfce folks are excited about the upcoming 4.14 release.
I will see how 4.13 works on a fresh install. If it is too buggered up, I will reinstall Mate.
On 30.03.2019, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
4.13 has been a pain in my neck:
Libre Office pulses at me https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14863
[....]
Don't know anything about the other bugs you've listed, but this one is a well-known bug in gtk3 - not XFCE.
Sam Varshavchik:
The only bug I'm aware of is the cursor pointer flickering, which is not even xfce's fault, but buggy Gnome code.
xfce 4.13 has been fine for me.
I understand the frustrations. There are indeed some bugs with Xfce 4.13 as it is not really a stable release as is 4.12.
I also can live with it or I fixed some of them, e.g. the flickering. I think it is a Gtk issue like you said. Just go to the mouse settings and change the value for the size of the cursor to something else and then back to your preferred one in the theme tab. I think it was mentioned in some of the bug reports.
On 3/31/19 4:58 PM, David Dusanic wrote:
Sam Varshavchik:
The only bug I'm aware of is the cursor pointer flickering, which is not even xfce's fault, but buggy Gnome code.
xfce 4.13 has been fine for me.
I understand the frustrations. There are indeed some bugs with Xfce 4.13 as it is not really a stable release as is 4.12.
I also can live with it or I fixed some of them, e.g. the flickering. I think it is a Gtk issue like you said. Just go to the mouse settings and change the value for the size of the cursor to something else and then back to your preferred one in the theme tab. I think it was mentioned in some of the bug reports.
Do you know if 4.14 be in Fedora 30?
On 4/1/19 12:03 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
Do you know if 4.14 be in Fedora 30?
Well, if you download the latest F30 Xfce Live image you'd find out it is still 4.13. Also, I see no sign of 4.14 in Koji.
On 3/31/19 9:36 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
On 4/1/19 12:03 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
Do you know if 4.14 be in Fedora 30?
Well, if you download the latest F30 Xfce Live image you'd find out it is still 4.13. Also, I see no sign of 4.14 in Koji.
Where did you find 30?
On 4/1/19 1:03 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 3/31/19 9:36 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
On 4/1/19 12:03 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
Do you know if 4.14 be in Fedora 30?
Well, if you download the latest F30 Xfce Live image you'd find out it is still 4.13. Also, I see no sign of 4.14 in Koji.
Where did you find 30?
https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/branched/
I used the 3/29 image
On 3/31/19 10:28 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
On 4/1/19 1:03 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 3/31/19 9:36 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
On 4/1/19 12:03 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
Do you know if 4.14 be in Fedora 30?
Well, if you download the latest F30 Xfce Live image you'd find out it is still 4.13. Also, I see no sign of 4.14 in Koji.
Where did you find 30?
https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/branched/
I used the 3/29 image
Thank you!
ToddAndMargo via users:
Where did you find 30?
You can search for packages and even for the upcoming release and EPEL:
https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/
On 4/1/19 6:43 AM, David Dusanic wrote:
ToddAndMargo via users:
Where did you find 30?
You can search for packages and even for the upcoming release and EPEL:
Thank you!
On 3/31/19 9:03 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
On 3/31/19 4:58 PM, David Dusanic wrote:
Sam Varshavchik:
The only bug I'm aware of is the cursor pointer flickering, which is not even xfce's fault, but buggy Gnome code.
xfce 4.13 has been fine for me.
I understand the frustrations. There are indeed some bugs with Xfce 4.13 as it is not really a stable release as is 4.12.
I also can live with it or I fixed some of them, e.g. the flickering. I think it is a Gtk issue like you said. Just go to the mouse settings and change the value for the size of the cursor to something else and then back to your preferred one in the theme tab. I think it was mentioned in some of the bug reports.
Do you know if 4.14 be in Fedora 30?
Very very unlikely.
No one knows right now when 4.14 will be out. Upstream Xfce is a group of folks working on this in their spare time, so it will take enough work to get things ready, then someone with enough time/will to manage the release process.
If they follow the process they did for previous releases there will be a number of 4.14pre releases then 4.14rc releases, then the final 4.14.
So, I wouldn't expect it anytime soon, and do expect some pre/rc releases in the run up to final.
kevin
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David Dusanic -
Ed Greshko -
Heinz Diehl -
Kevin Fenzi -
Sam Varshavchik -
ToddAndMargo