Several comments on yesterday's fail2ban article[1], as well as some internal Red Hat mailing list traffic, raised concern with the use of the word "blacklist". While the etymology of the term is not racist, there are reasonable arguments to be made that it can contribute to unconscious bias. Its meaning is also less obvious than alternatives like "block list".
So there are two questions here:
1. Should we discourage the use of whitelist and blacklist in Fedora Magazine in favor of alternatives like "allow list" and "block list"/"deny list"?
2. Should we start developing a style guide that addresses this and other issues (e.g. the style of projects like "NetworkManager" (not "Network Manager") and other things both malign and benign (like using the words "simple" or "just") that a style guide normally covers)?
I am in favor of both of the above.
For anyone who is interested, I learned today that the latest update to the codespell package (currently in testing[2]) can flag some of these issues: codespell --builtin clear,rare,usage <filename>
[1] https://fedoramagazine.org/protect-your-system-with-fail2ban-and-firewalld-b... [2] https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2020-12bd755a7c
I think if we can reduce the potential for unintentional bias being forced upon our community members we should attempt both approaches.
Stephen
On Tue, 2020-06-23 at 16:32 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
Several comments on yesterday's fail2ban article[1], as well as some internal Red Hat mailing list traffic, raised concern with the use of the word "blacklist". While the etymology of the term is not racist, there are reasonable arguments to be made that it can contribute to unconscious bias. Its meaning is also less obvious than alternatives like "block list".
So there are two questions here:
- Should we discourage the use of whitelist and blacklist in Fedora
Magazine in favor of alternatives like "allow list" and "block list"/"deny list"?
- Should we start developing a style guide that addresses this and
other issues (e.g. the style of projects like "NetworkManager" (not "Network Manager") and other things both malign and benign (like using the words "simple" or "just") that a style guide normally covers)?
I am in favor of both of the above.
For anyone who is interested, I learned today that the latest update to the codespell package (currently in testing[2]) can flag some of these issues: codespell --builtin clear,rare,usage <filename>
[1] https://fedoramagazine.org/protect-your-system-with-fail2ban-and-firewalld-b... [2] https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2020-12bd755a7c
-- Ben Cotton He / Him / His Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream Red Hat TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:35 PM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
Several comments on yesterday's fail2ban article[1], as well as some internal Red Hat mailing list traffic, raised concern with the use of the word "blacklist". While the etymology of the term is not racist, there are reasonable arguments to be made that it can contribute to unconscious bias. Its meaning is also less obvious than alternatives like "block list".
So there are two questions here:
- Should we discourage the use of whitelist and blacklist in Fedora
Magazine in favor of alternatives like "allow list" and "block list"/"deny list"?
Yes.
- Should we start developing a style guide that addresses this and
other issues (e.g. the style of projects like "NetworkManager" (not "Network Manager") and other things both malign and benign (like using the words "simple" or "just") that a style guide normally covers)?
Yes.
I am in favor of both of the above.
For anyone who is interested, I learned today that the latest update to the codespell package (currently in testing[2]) can flag some of these issues: codespell --builtin clear,rare,usage <filename>
I had no idea this exists and that's awesome.
Frankly, 'allowlist'/'denylist' makes way more sense anyway. It doesn't force people using some other languages to figure out a weird etymology. And it has precedent (/etc/hosts.{allow,deny}).
Can we fix the article that's out there now?
Raising my opinion as well. As a Swedish person, I've always associated whitelists as a list of things you can see, since white is bright. Likewise for blacklists as something in the darkness that you cannot see.
I personally would use the same connotation as the project I'm writing about. If I'm writing about Redis I will write about master-replica. Likewise if I'm writing about something that uses whitelist/blacklist wording, I will use that as well.
Using a different connotation than is documented is just confusing. I wouldn't edit the Fedora Magazine article either, even though allowlist/denylist 100% makes more sense in firewalld the article talks about it as a problem and proposes a solution - their firewalld-blacklist package. If it was to be edited across the article to mention denylist instead, and in the end link to a firewalld-blacklist package they created, one would be confused as to why it was coded with one word and released with a different one.
I would vote for discouraging master/slave, and blacklist/whitelist as long as it makes sense and doesn't take away any meaning that needs to be explained.
Having a style guide sounds great, I'm presuming something like codespell can correct custom words as well like RedHat, NetworkManager, fedora, etc.
Eric Gustavsson, RHCSA He/Him/His Software Engineer Red Hat IM: Telegram: @SpyTec E1FE 044A E0DE 127D CBCA E7C7 BD1B 8DF2 C5A1 5384
On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 at 23:03, Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:35 PM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
Several comments on yesterday's fail2ban article[1], as well as some internal Red Hat mailing list traffic, raised concern with the use of the word "blacklist". While the etymology of the term is not racist, there are reasonable arguments to be made that it can contribute to unconscious bias. Its meaning is also less obvious than alternatives like "block list".
So there are two questions here:
- Should we discourage the use of whitelist and blacklist in Fedora
Magazine in favor of alternatives like "allow list" and "block list"/"deny list"?
Yes.
- Should we start developing a style guide that addresses this and
other issues (e.g. the style of projects like "NetworkManager" (not "Network Manager") and other things both malign and benign (like using the words "simple" or "just") that a style guide normally covers)?
Yes.
I am in favor of both of the above.
For anyone who is interested, I learned today that the latest update to the codespell package (currently in testing[2]) can flag some of these issues: codespell --builtin clear,rare,usage <filename>
I had no idea this exists and that's awesome.
Frankly, 'allowlist'/'denylist' makes way more sense anyway. It doesn't force people using some other languages to figure out a weird etymology. And it has precedent (/etc/hosts.{allow,deny}).
Can we fix the article that's out there now?
-- Paul _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
By discouraging as long as it makes sense I meant more in terms of that it doesn't detract or introduce uncertainty that need to be explained
Eric Gustavsson, RHCSA He/Him/His Software Engineer Red Hat IM: Telegram: @SpyTec E1FE 044A E0DE 127D CBCA E7C7 BD1B 8DF2 C5A1 5384
On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 at 23:22, Eric Gustavsson egustavs@redhat.com wrote:
Raising my opinion as well. As a Swedish person, I've always associated whitelists as a list of things you can see, since white is bright. Likewise for blacklists as something in the darkness that you cannot see.
I personally would use the same connotation as the project I'm writing about. If I'm writing about Redis I will write about master-replica. Likewise if I'm writing about something that uses whitelist/blacklist wording, I will use that as well.
Using a different connotation than is documented is just confusing. I wouldn't edit the Fedora Magazine article either, even though allowlist/denylist 100% makes more sense in firewalld the article talks about it as a problem and proposes a solution - their firewalld-blacklist package. If it was to be edited across the article to mention denylist instead, and in the end link to a firewalld-blacklist package they created, one would be confused as to why it was coded with one word and released with a different one.
I would vote for discouraging master/slave, and blacklist/whitelist as long as it makes sense and doesn't take away any meaning that needs to be explained.
Having a style guide sounds great, I'm presuming something like codespell can correct custom words as well like RedHat, NetworkManager, fedora, etc.
Eric Gustavsson, RHCSA He/Him/His Software Engineer Red Hat IM: Telegram: @SpyTec E1FE 044A E0DE 127D CBCA E7C7 BD1B 8DF2 C5A1 5384
On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 at 23:03, Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:35 PM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
Several comments on yesterday's fail2ban article[1], as well as some internal Red Hat mailing list traffic, raised concern with the use of the word "blacklist". While the etymology of the term is not racist, there are reasonable arguments to be made that it can contribute to unconscious bias. Its meaning is also less obvious than alternatives like "block list".
So there are two questions here:
- Should we discourage the use of whitelist and blacklist in Fedora
Magazine in favor of alternatives like "allow list" and "block list"/"deny list"?
Yes.
- Should we start developing a style guide that addresses this and
other issues (e.g. the style of projects like "NetworkManager" (not "Network Manager") and other things both malign and benign (like using the words "simple" or "just") that a style guide normally covers)?
Yes.
I am in favor of both of the above.
For anyone who is interested, I learned today that the latest update to the codespell package (currently in testing[2]) can flag some of these issues: codespell --builtin clear,rare,usage <filename>
I had no idea this exists and that's awesome.
Frankly, 'allowlist'/'denylist' makes way more sense anyway. It doesn't force people using some other languages to figure out a weird etymology. And it has precedent (/etc/hosts.{allow,deny}).
Can we fix the article that's out there now?
-- Paul _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:23 PM Eric Gustavsson egustavs@redhat.com wrote:
Raising my opinion as well. As a Swedish person, I've always associated whitelists as a list of things you can see, since white is bright. Likewise for blacklists as something in the darkness that you cannot see.
I'm sure you can understand, though, why our associations in this case are less relevant.
I personally would use the same connotation as the project I'm writing
about. If I'm writing about Redis I will write about master-replica. Likewise if I'm writing about something that uses whitelist/blacklist wording, I will use that as well.
Using a different connotation than is documented is just confusing.
While I agree upstream references may make this difficult there are still actions we can take, such as a note to the effect of the objectionable language, and (if it exists) a link to upstream discussion. We can also work around with a clear note at the top of an article explaining the language we will use.
I wouldn't edit the Fedora Magazine article either, even though
allowlist/denylist 100% makes more sense in firewalld the article talks about it as a problem and proposes a solution - their firewalld-blacklist package. If it was to be edited across the article to mention denylist instead, and in the end link to a firewalld-blacklist package they created, one would be confused as to why it was coded with one word and released with a different one.
This seems a weak problem. After all we have many -devel packages that contain mainly headers.
I would vote for discouraging master/slave, and blacklist/whitelist as
long as it makes sense and doesn't take away any meaning that needs to be explained.
Having a style guide sounds great, I'm presuming something like codespell can correct custom words as well like RedHat, NetworkManager, fedora, etc.
I do agree we avoid creating confusion, but this can be done in many ways that avoid simply falling back to status quo.
I have no objection other than maybe the work it puts on the writer to learn the new terminology. Personally I don't typically think along those lines and I can see where it might be easy for someone to accidentally use a word out of habit and not even realize that it is one that has been flagged by the community as an offensive word.
My only request is that the writers/editors not be expected to learn a long list of words to constantly be thinking about and watching out for. I would rather the list be loaded into the spelling autocorrect system somehow.
My two cents, gb
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:55 PM Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:23 PM Eric Gustavsson egustavs@redhat.com wrote:
Raising my opinion as well. As a Swedish person, I've always associated whitelists as a list of things you can see, since white is bright. Likewise for blacklists as something in the darkness that you cannot see.
I'm sure you can understand, though, why our associations in this case are less relevant.
I personally would use the same connotation as the project I'm writing
about. If I'm writing about Redis I will write about master-replica. Likewise if I'm writing about something that uses whitelist/blacklist wording, I will use that as well.
Using a different connotation than is documented is just confusing.
While I agree upstream references may make this difficult there are still actions we can take, such as a note to the effect of the objectionable language, and (if it exists) a link to upstream discussion. We can also work around with a clear note at the top of an article explaining the language we will use.
I wouldn't edit the Fedora Magazine article either, even though
allowlist/denylist 100% makes more sense in firewalld the article talks about it as a problem and proposes a solution - their firewalld-blacklist package. If it was to be edited across the article to mention denylist instead, and in the end link to a firewalld-blacklist package they created, one would be confused as to why it was coded with one word and released with a different one.
This seems a weak problem. After all we have many -devel packages that contain mainly headers.
I would vote for discouraging master/slave, and blacklist/whitelist as
long as it makes sense and doesn't take away any meaning that needs to be explained.
Having a style guide sounds great, I'm presuming something like codespell can correct custom words as well like RedHat, NetworkManager, fedora, etc.
I do agree we avoid creating confusion, but this can be done in many ways that avoid simply falling back to status quo.
-- Paul _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
At this rate, we will be burning older technical books because the terminology is no longer "acceptable".
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:09 PM Gregory Bartholomew < gregory.lee.bartholomew@gmail.com> wrote:
I have no objection other than maybe the work it puts on the writer to learn the new terminology. Personally I don't typically think along those lines and I can see where it might be easy for someone to accidentally use a word out of habit and not even realize that it is one that has been flagged by the community as an offensive word.
My only request is that the writers/editors not be expected to learn a long list of words to constantly be thinking about and watching out for. I would rather the list be loaded into the spelling autocorrect system somehow.
My two cents, gb
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:55 PM Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:23 PM Eric Gustavsson egustavs@redhat.com
wrote:
Raising my opinion as well. As a Swedish person, I've always associated whitelists as a list of things you can see, since white is bright. Likewise for blacklists as something in the darkness that you cannot
see.
I'm sure you can understand, though, why our associations in this case
are
less relevant.
I personally would use the same connotation as the project I'm writing
about. If I'm writing about Redis I will write about master-replica. Likewise if I'm writing about something that uses whitelist/blacklist wording, I will use that as well.
Using a different connotation than is documented is just confusing.
While I agree upstream references may make this difficult there are still actions we can take, such as a note to the effect of the objectionable language, and (if it exists) a link to upstream discussion. We can also work around with a clear note at the top of an article explaining the language we will use.
I wouldn't edit the Fedora Magazine article either, even though
allowlist/denylist 100% makes more sense in firewalld the article talks about it as a problem and proposes a solution - their firewalld-blacklist package. If it was to be edited across the article to mention denylist instead, and in the end link to a firewalld-blacklist package they created, one would be confused as to why it was coded with one word and released with a different one.
This seems a weak problem. After all we have many -devel packages that contain mainly headers.
I would vote for discouraging master/slave, and blacklist/whitelist as
long as it makes sense and doesn't take away any meaning that needs to be explained.
Having a style guide sounds great, I'm presuming something like codespell can correct custom words as well like RedHat, NetworkManager, fedora, etc.
I do agree we avoid creating confusion, but this can be done in many ways that avoid simply falling back to status quo.
-- Paul _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
Obviously existing printed material cannot be changed. But newer editions of books can most certainly address these things if they so desire.
Paul, Ben - there was an OSPO talk about inclusive terminology that was put up a couple of weeks ago that might be of some interest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZuFeFuazwo
Eric Gustavsson, RHCSA He/Him/His Software Engineer Red Hat IM: Telegram: @SpyTec E1FE 044A E0DE 127D CBCA E7C7 BD1B 8DF2 C5A1 5384
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 01:11, John Paul Wohlschied wohlschied@gmail.com wrote:
At this rate, we will be burning older technical books because the terminology is no longer "acceptable".
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:09 PM Gregory Bartholomew gregory.lee.bartholomew@gmail.com wrote:
I have no objection other than maybe the work it puts on the writer to learn the new terminology. Personally I don't typically think along those lines and I can see where it might be easy for someone to accidentally use a word out of habit and not even realize that it is one that has been flagged by the community as an offensive word.
My only request is that the writers/editors not be expected to learn a long list of words to constantly be thinking about and watching out for. I would rather the list be loaded into the spelling autocorrect system somehow.
My two cents, gb
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:55 PM Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:23 PM Eric Gustavsson egustavs@redhat.com wrote:
Raising my opinion as well. As a Swedish person, I've always associated whitelists as a list of things you can see, since white is bright. Likewise for blacklists as something in the darkness that you cannot see.
I'm sure you can understand, though, why our associations in this case are less relevant.
I personally would use the same connotation as the project I'm writing
about. If I'm writing about Redis I will write about master-replica. Likewise if I'm writing about something that uses whitelist/blacklist wording, I will use that as well.
Using a different connotation than is documented is just confusing.
While I agree upstream references may make this difficult there are still actions we can take, such as a note to the effect of the objectionable language, and (if it exists) a link to upstream discussion. We can also work around with a clear note at the top of an article explaining the language we will use.
I wouldn't edit the Fedora Magazine article either, even though
allowlist/denylist 100% makes more sense in firewalld the article talks about it as a problem and proposes a solution - their firewalld-blacklist package. If it was to be edited across the article to mention denylist instead, and in the end link to a firewalld-blacklist package they created, one would be confused as to why it was coded with one word and released with a different one.
This seems a weak problem. After all we have many -devel packages that contain mainly headers.
I would vote for discouraging master/slave, and blacklist/whitelist as
long as it makes sense and doesn't take away any meaning that needs to be explained.
Having a style guide sounds great, I'm presuming something like codespell can correct custom words as well like RedHat, NetworkManager, fedora, etc.
I do agree we avoid creating confusion, but this can be done in many ways that avoid simply falling back to status quo.
-- Paul _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
So what is next? Do we have to change the colors of chess pieces to pink and blue? I had a discussion recently with a "person of color" if that is the correct term these days on the subject of "firing" Aunt Jemima. He thought it was really kind of stupid. I think he is right.
Surely there must be something that is more important than this childish nonsense.
On 6/23/2020 6:16 PM, Eric Gustavsson wrote:
Obviously existing printed material cannot be changed. But newer editions of books can most certainly address these things if they so desire.
Paul, Ben - there was an OSPO talk about inclusive terminology that was put up a couple of weeks ago that might be of some interest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZuFeFuazwo
Eric Gustavsson, RHCSA He/Him/His Software Engineer Red Hat IM: Telegram: @SpyTec E1FE 044A E0DE 127D CBCA E7C7 BD1B 8DF2 C5A1 5384
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 01:11, John Paul Wohlschied wohlschied@gmail.com wrote:
At this rate, we will be burning older technical books because the terminology is no longer "acceptable".
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:09 PM Gregory Bartholomew gregory.lee.bartholomew@gmail.com wrote:
I have no objection other than maybe the work it puts on the writer to learn the new terminology. Personally I don't typically think along those lines and I can see where it might be easy for someone to accidentally use a word out of habit and not even realize that it is one that has been flagged by the community as an offensive word.
My only request is that the writers/editors not be expected to learn a long list of words to constantly be thinking about and watching out for. I would rather the list be loaded into the spelling autocorrect system somehow.
My two cents, gb
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:55 PM Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:23 PM Eric Gustavsson egustavs@redhat.com wrote:
Raising my opinion as well. As a Swedish person, I've always associated whitelists as a list of things you can see, since white is bright. Likewise for blacklists as something in the darkness that you cannot see.
I'm sure you can understand, though, why our associations in this case are less relevant.
I personally would use the same connotation as the project I'm writing
about. If I'm writing about Redis I will write about master-replica. Likewise if I'm writing about something that uses whitelist/blacklist wording, I will use that as well.
Using a different connotation than is documented is just confusing.
While I agree upstream references may make this difficult there are still actions we can take, such as a note to the effect of the objectionable language, and (if it exists) a link to upstream discussion. We can also work around with a clear note at the top of an article explaining the language we will use.
I wouldn't edit the Fedora Magazine article either, even though
allowlist/denylist 100% makes more sense in firewalld the article talks about it as a problem and proposes a solution - their firewalld-blacklist package. If it was to be edited across the article to mention denylist instead, and in the end link to a firewalld-blacklist package they created, one would be confused as to why it was coded with one word and released with a different one.
This seems a weak problem. After all we have many -devel packages that contain mainly headers.
I would vote for discouraging master/slave, and blacklist/whitelist as
long as it makes sense and doesn't take away any meaning that needs to be explained.
Having a style guide sounds great, I'm presuming something like codespell can correct custom words as well like RedHat, NetworkManager, fedora, etc.
I do agree we avoid creating confusion, but this can be done in many ways that avoid simply falling back to status quo.
-- Paul _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
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This kind of comment is not constructively adding to the dialogue. Let's stay focused on the specific issue under discussion.
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 10:53 PM Dale Raby daleraby@gmail.com wrote:
So what is next? Do we have to change the colors of chess pieces to pink and blue? I had a discussion recently with a "person of color" if that is the correct term these days on the subject of "firing" Aunt Jemima. He thought it was really kind of stupid. I think he is right.
Surely there must be something that is more important than this childish nonsense.
On 6/23/2020 6:16 PM, Eric Gustavsson wrote:
Obviously existing printed material cannot be changed. But newer editions of books can most certainly address these things if they so desire.
Paul, Ben - there was an OSPO talk about inclusive terminology that was put up a couple of weeks ago that might be of some interest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZuFeFuazwo
Eric Gustavsson, RHCSA He/Him/His Software Engineer Red Hat IM: Telegram: @SpyTec E1FE 044A E0DE 127D CBCA E7C7 BD1B 8DF2 C5A1 5384
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 01:11, John Paul Wohlschied wohlschied@gmail.com wrote:
At this rate, we will be burning older technical books because the terminology is no longer "acceptable".
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:09 PM Gregory Bartholomew gregory.lee.bartholomew@gmail.com wrote:
I have no objection other than maybe the work it puts on the writer to learn the new terminology. Personally I don't typically think along those lines and I can see where it might be easy for someone to accidentally use a word out of habit and not even realize that it is one that has been flagged by the community as an offensive word.
My only request is that the writers/editors not be expected to learn a long list of words to constantly be thinking about and watching out for. I would rather the list be loaded into the spelling autocorrect system somehow.
My two cents, gb
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:55 PM Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:23 PM Eric Gustavsson egustavs@redhat.com wrote:
Raising my opinion as well. As a Swedish person, I've always associated whitelists as a list of things you can see, since white is bright. Likewise for blacklists as something in the darkness that you cannot see.
I'm sure you can understand, though, why our associations in this case are less relevant.
I personally would use the same connotation as the project I'm writing
about. If I'm writing about Redis I will write about master-replica. Likewise if I'm writing about something that uses whitelist/blacklist wording, I will use that as well.
Using a different connotation than is documented is just confusing.
While I agree upstream references may make this difficult there are still actions we can take, such as a note to the effect of the objectionable language, and (if it exists) a link to upstream discussion. We can also work around with a clear note at the top of an article explaining the language we will use.
I wouldn't edit the Fedora Magazine article either, even though
allowlist/denylist 100% makes more sense in firewalld the article talks about it as a problem and proposes a solution - their firewalld-blacklist package. If it was to be edited across the article to mention denylist instead, and in the end link to a firewalld-blacklist package they created, one would be confused as to why it was coded with one word and released with a different one.
This seems a weak problem. After all we have many -devel packages that contain mainly headers.
I would vote for discouraging master/slave, and blacklist/whitelist as
long as it makes sense and doesn't take away any meaning that needs to be explained.
Having a style guide sounds great, I'm presuming something like codespell can correct custom words as well like RedHat, NetworkManager, fedora, etc.
I do agree we avoid creating confusion, but this can be done in many ways that avoid simply falling back to status quo.
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No one is suggesting anything of the sort. This is about expending almost no effort to be more inclusive. Costs us nothing and avoids contributing to the daily "paper cuts" inflicted on others.
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 7:11 PM John Paul Wohlschied wohlschied@gmail.com wrote:
At this rate, we will be burning older technical books because the terminology is no longer "acceptable".
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:09 PM Gregory Bartholomew < gregory.lee.bartholomew@gmail.com> wrote:
I have no objection other than maybe the work it puts on the writer to learn the new terminology. Personally I don't typically think along those lines and I can see where it might be easy for someone to accidentally use a word out of habit and not even realize that it is one that has been flagged by the community as an offensive word.
My only request is that the writers/editors not be expected to learn a long list of words to constantly be thinking about and watching out for. I would rather the list be loaded into the spelling autocorrect system somehow.
My two cents, gb
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:55 PM Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 5:23 PM Eric Gustavsson egustavs@redhat.com
wrote:
Raising my opinion as well. As a Swedish person, I've always associated whitelists as a list of things you can see, since white is bright. Likewise for blacklists as something in the darkness that you cannot
see.
I'm sure you can understand, though, why our associations in this case
are
less relevant.
I personally would use the same connotation as the project I'm writing
about. If I'm writing about Redis I will write about master-replica. Likewise if I'm writing about something that uses whitelist/blacklist wording, I will use that as well.
Using a different connotation than is documented is just confusing.
While I agree upstream references may make this difficult there are
still
actions we can take, such as a note to the effect of the objectionable language, and (if it exists) a link to upstream discussion. We can also work around with a clear note at the top of an article explaining the language we will use.
I wouldn't edit the Fedora Magazine article either, even though
allowlist/denylist 100% makes more sense in firewalld the article talks about it as a problem and proposes a solution - their firewalld-blacklist package. If it was to be edited across the article to mention denylist instead, and in the end link to a firewalld-blacklist package they created, one would be confused as to why it was coded with one word and released with a different one.
This seems a weak problem. After all we have many -devel packages that contain mainly headers.
I would vote for discouraging master/slave, and blacklist/whitelist as
long as it makes sense and doesn't take away any meaning that needs to be explained.
Having a style guide sounds great, I'm presuming something like codespell can correct custom words as well like RedHat, NetworkManager, fedora, etc.
I do agree we avoid creating confusion, but this can be done in many
ways
that avoid simply falling back to status quo.
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Ok, so as the writer of the article here are my thoughts...
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against changing it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at least in English) which has nothing to do with race.
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but rather as a stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution and I'm not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't help themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
Thanks, Richard
I tend to lean in your direction on this Richard, but I don't really feel strongly about it enough to object to rephrasing things to suit some. In the larger context, doing nothing and sticking with what we currently have is also a viable option as this does feel a bit "knee jerk" in it's context. (ie... response to a single comment, and additional corporate influence to look correct in light of today's environment). Personally, I think if we took Greg's suggestion about having a grammar and dictionary plugin on the WP site prompt us about sensitive words that would go a long way. But more importantly if we as a group wish to have some positive influence on the discussion, we should be promoting more diversity and equality throughout the magazine and indeed the Fedora organization wherever we can. Also, to add to what you are saying, forcing someone to a POV doesn't succeed in winning them over. It's only through communication and idea sharing that we can break down these barriers, and learn from each other. Education, Equity, Empathy are the beginning steps. The Fedora Foundations are a good starting point to work from.
Stephen
On Tue, 2020-06-23 at 17:05 -0500, Richard Shaw wrote:
Ok, so as the writer of the article here are my thoughts...
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against changing it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at least in English) which has nothing to do with race.
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but rather as a stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution and I'm not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't help themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
Thanks, Richard _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
I'll agree with the previous two comments. I tend to try and be inclusive to everyone (with a few exceptions) but overreacting here won't fix anything. I'll do my best to follow whatever guidelines/changes are needed but I'd rather everyone just be reasonable adults in the first place, and not much in IT has anything to do with race etc as the internet tends to be international with people of all races contributing quite a bit.
On that note if anyone feels I've excluded them (in the past or future) it probably wasn't intentional ping me and we can hopefully sort it out.
On June 23, 2020 6:23:03 PM CDT, s40w5s@gmail.com wrote:
I tend to lean in your direction on this Richard, but I don't really feel strongly about it enough to object to rephrasing things to suit some. In the larger context, doing nothing and sticking with what we currently have is also a viable option as this does feel a bit "knee jerk" in it's context. (ie... response to a single comment, and additional corporate influence to look correct in light of today's environment). Personally, I think if we took Greg's suggestion about having a grammar and dictionary plugin on the WP site prompt us about sensitive words that would go a long way. But more importantly if we as a group wish to have some positive influence on the discussion, we should be promoting more diversity and equality throughout the magazine and indeed the Fedora organization wherever we can. Also, to add to what you are saying, forcing someone to a POV doesn't succeed in winning them over. It's only through communication and idea sharing that we can break down these barriers, and learn from each other. Education, Equity, Empathy are the beginning steps. The Fedora Foundations are a good starting point to work from.
Stephen
On Tue, 2020-06-23 at 17:05 -0500, Richard Shaw wrote:
Ok, so as the writer of the article here are my thoughts...
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against changing it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at least in English) which has nothing to do with race.
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but rather as a stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution and I'm not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't help themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
Thanks, Richard _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
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It's reasonable for people who draw our attention to a pervasive problem to expect us to listen. I for one appreciate you being willing to go with guidelines it changes, it's helpful.
One note on IT though: plenty of studies show that it's absolutely *not* a diverse labor force. And I don't mean they argue whether it is it isn't. It's simple fact, it's not. So we can't rely on "lots of people contribute" when so few people contributing tend to be people of color.
It's important to remember this isn't about intent. No one's being judged here. This is about setting up for better inclusivity in the future, nothing more or less.
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020, 7:56 PM SysOp sysop+fedora@sysoplab.com wrote:
I'll agree with the previous two comments. I tend to try and be inclusive to everyone (with a few exceptions) but overreacting here won't fix anything. I'll do my best to follow whatever guidelines/changes are needed but I'd rather everyone just be reasonable adults in the first place, and not much in IT has anything to do with race etc as the internet tends to be international with people of all races contributing quite a bit.
On that note if anyone feels I've excluded them (in the past or future) it probably wasn't intentional ping me and we can hopefully sort it out.
On June 23, 2020 6:23:03 PM CDT, s40w5s@gmail.com wrote:
I tend to lean in your direction on this Richard, but I don't really feel strongly about it enough to object to rephrasing things to suit some. In the larger context, doing nothing and sticking with what we currently have is also a viable option as this does feel a bit "knee jerk" in it's context. (ie... response to a single comment, and additional corporate influence to look correct in light of today's environment). Personally, I think if we took Greg's suggestion about having a grammar and dictionary plugin on the WP site prompt us about sensitive words that would go a long way. But more importantly if we as a group wish to have some positive influence on the discussion, we should be promoting more diversity and equality throughout the magazine and indeed the Fedora organization wherever we can. Also, to add to what you are saying, forcing someone to a POV doesn't succeed in winning them over. It's only through communication and idea sharing that we can break down these barriers, and learn from each other. Education, Equity, Empathy are the beginning steps. The Fedora Foundations are a good starting point to work from.
Stephen
On Tue, 2020-06-23 at 17:05 -0500, Richard Shaw wrote:
Ok, so as the writer of the article here are my thoughts...
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against changing it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at least in English) which has nothing to do with race.
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but rather as a stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution and I'm not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't help themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
Thanks, Richard _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives:
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List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives:
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On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:06 PM Richard Shaw hobbes1069@gmail.com wrote:
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against changing it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at least in English) which has nothing to do with race.
Yes, it's a color, but the list isn't black, so that's not relevant. I agree that it has a long non-racial usage, but it also has less clarity. Unlike the term "slave", I would not object to *any* use of the word blacklist, but it should be used judiciously. If upstream uses it, then by all means let's use it in command line invocations, file names, etc. But let's not use it in the descriptive part of the article. (analogy: ssh is the command, SSH is the protocol; foo.blacklist is the file, foo blocklist is the concept)
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but rather as a stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution and I'm not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't help themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
We should be very careful about deciding whether or not we're causing offense to a group that is almost entirely unrepresented in our community. No one has suggested a language police, just establishing a set of standards that address specific issues. Will those standards change over time? Absolutely. The English I write isn't the same as William Shakespeare (in a variety of ways). Submitting an article that uses "blacklist" isn't a code of conduct issue; it's something to look at in the editorial review process.
Yes, this particular terminology is getting more attention right now due to issues in the United States. That doesn't mean it's not worth looking at.
The issue at hand is not removing the word "black" from use; let's not cloud the actual topic. We are looking at the case of "whitelist/blacklist" as a metaphor for "good/bad." For example, "black box" has no such issue as that usage is unambiguously about visibility. Here's a good writeup on this and surrounding issues, and I recommend taking the time to read and understand it: https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.2
Paul
On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 8:21 AM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 6:06 PM Richard Shaw hobbes1069@gmail.com wrote:
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against changing it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at least in English) which has nothing to do with race.
Yes, it's a color, but the list isn't black, so that's not relevant. I agree that it has a long non-racial usage, but it also has less clarity. Unlike the term "slave", I would not object to *any* use of the word blacklist, but it should be used judiciously. If upstream uses it, then by all means let's use it in command line invocations, file names, etc. But let's not use it in the descriptive part of the article. (analogy: ssh is the command, SSH is the protocol; foo.blacklist is the file, foo blocklist is the concept)
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but rather as a stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution and I'm not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't help themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
We should be very careful about deciding whether or not we're causing offense to a group that is almost entirely unrepresented in our community. No one has suggested a language police, just establishing a set of standards that address specific issues. Will those standards change over time? Absolutely. The English I write isn't the same as William Shakespeare (in a variety of ways). Submitting an article that uses "blacklist" isn't a code of conduct issue; it's something to look at in the editorial review process.
Yes, this particular terminology is getting more attention right now due to issues in the United States. That doesn't mean it's not worth looking at.
-- Ben Cotton He / Him / His Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream Red Hat TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 7:41 AM Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
The issue at hand is not removing the word "black" from use; let's not cloud the actual topic. We are looking at the case of "whitelist/blacklist" as a metaphor for "good/bad." For example, "black box" has no such issue as that usage is unambiguously about visibility. Here's a good writeup on this and surrounding issues, and I recommend taking the time to read and understand it: https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.2
Ok, I read it. He uses lots of flowery language and big words. I even agreed up until I got here:
"...it is a good-evil metaphor and therefore entirely based in racism."
Right there the writer directly connects good/evil with race without further justification and I don't think it is justifiable.
Ok I intended to stay out of this conversation because I knew it would get me riled up, but I let this pull me back in. I do not plan to respond again.
Thanks, Richard
On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 07:47:10AM -0500, Richard Shaw wrote:
"...it is a good-evil metaphor and therefore entirely based in racism."
Right there the writer directly connects good/evil with race without further justification and I don't think it is justifiable.
I think part of this disconnect is due to a difference in how people use the word "racist". Specifically, there is a narrow definition where racism is specific, overt prejudice or negative action based primarily on race. But people also use it in a broader sense, with a focus on the -ism. That is, as a system. Without even getting into facts or beliefs about racism as this larger social construct, just simply people talking past each other causes a lot of stress when I think actually common ground could be found.
It's easy to read the above as referring to the first, and basically an individual call-out saying, effectively, "if you've ever used 'black and white' as a metaphor for negative and positive, you are clearly a bad person, a racist". But it can also simply mean: the association of black and white with negative and positive is intractably linked with social constructs that perpetuate racial injustice.
Now, you might disagree with the latter. But I hope it wouldn't make you personally upset. And, I think there's compelling reasons to believe that, regardless of any original intentions, it's time to move on from this particular analogy, especially in tech where we have lots of other expressive ways to describe the same concepts more clearly and directly.
On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 12:02 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 07:47:10AM -0500, Richard Shaw wrote:
"...it is a good-evil metaphor and therefore entirely based in racism."
Right there the writer directly connects good/evil with race without further justification and I don't think it is justifiable.
I think part of this disconnect is due to a difference in how people use the word "racist". Specifically, there is a narrow definition where racism is specific, overt prejudice or negative action based primarily on race. But people also use it in a broader sense, with a focus on the -ism. That is, as a system. Without even getting into facts or beliefs about racism as this larger social construct, just simply people talking past each other causes a lot of stress when I think actually common ground could be found.
It's easy to read the above as referring to the first, and basically an individual call-out saying, effectively, "if you've ever used 'black and white' as a metaphor for negative and positive, you are clearly a bad person, a racist". But it can also simply mean: the association of black and white with negative and positive is intractably linked with social constructs that perpetuate racial injustice.
Now, you might disagree with the latter. But I hope it wouldn't make you personally upset. And, I think there's compelling reasons to believe that, regardless of any original intentions, it's time to move on from this particular analogy, especially in tech where we have lots of other expressive ways to describe the same concepts more clearly and directly.
Well said. We don't want to ascribe ill intent to how these terms came about, or to people using them. We simply have an opportunity to make an incremental improvement in our overall inclusivity at trivial or no cost, and should take it.
Hello all,
Since when the word "black" is bad? It's a colour. Same as white, blue, orange and pale pink. Changing the use of two terms associated with colours doesn't make any sense and will be confusing for everyone. I'm absolutely against it. We don't need to obfuscate the meaning of things or make it hard to understand to non-native English speakers. Also, did anyone actually got offended by this term? Or is it just a case of opening the umbrella before it rains?
Kind regards, Lailah
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 00:06, Richard Shaw hobbes1069@gmail.com wrote:
Ok, so as the writer of the article here are my thoughts...
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against changing it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at least in English) which has nothing to do with race.
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but rather as a stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution and I'm not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't help themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
Thanks, Richard _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
I don't know how to say this any more clearly. Please read back into the thread. The issue is not the use of the word "black."
The issue is the use of "blacklist/whitelist" where black and white are representative of evil and good respectively. It serves no useful purpose and is better expressed as allow/deny. Blacklist and whitelist are *themselves* obfuscatory terms. That's why it only makes more sense to stop using them.
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:20 PM Silvia Sánchez bhkohane@gmail.com wrote:
Hello all,
Since when the word "black" is bad? It's a colour. Same as white, blue, orange and pale pink. Changing the use of two terms associated with colours doesn't make any sense and will be confusing for everyone. I'm absolutely against it. We don't need to obfuscate the meaning of things or make it hard to understand to non-native English speakers. Also, did anyone actually got offended by this term? Or is it just a case of opening the umbrella before it rains?
Kind regards, Lailah
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 00:06, Richard Shaw hobbes1069@gmail.com wrote:
Ok, so as the writer of the article here are my thoughts...
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against changing it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at least
in
English) which has nothing to do with race.
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but rather as
a
stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution and I'm not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't help themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
Thanks, Richard _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives:
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I don't know how to say this more clearly: this entire discussion is a waste of time as it is a non-issue. The only reason it has come up for discussion is because of the current social unrest. Light vs. Dark goes back to the very dawn of civilization... which began in Africa. Whitelist and blacklist do not have any racial connotations and they never did. Everyone knows this. Are you afraid of some baseless accusations that hasn't even been made?
If you don't want to use the terms then don't use them. It really doesn't make any difference. Use positive list and negative list if they make more sense to you. The only ones who really care are white liberals who perhaps feel a little guilty.
Enough on this subject already! This is not a political discussion list... and if it is, I'll be unsubscribing.
On June 25, 2020 6:43:05 PM CDT, Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know how to say this any more clearly. Please read back into the thread. The issue is not the use of the word "black."
The issue is the use of "blacklist/whitelist" where black and white are representative of evil and good respectively. It serves no useful purpose and is better expressed as allow/deny. Blacklist and whitelist are *themselves* obfuscatory terms. That's why it only makes more sense to stop using them.
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:20 PM Silvia Sánchez bhkohane@gmail.com wrote:
Hello all,
Since when the word "black" is bad? It's a colour. Same as white,
blue,
orange and pale pink. Changing the use of two terms associated with colours doesn't make
any
sense and will be confusing for everyone. I'm absolutely against it. We don't need to obfuscate the meaning of things or make it hard to understand to non-native English speakers. Also, did anyone actually got offended by this term? Or is it just a
case
of opening the umbrella before it rains?
Kind regards, Lailah
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 00:06, Richard Shaw hobbes1069@gmail.com
wrote:
Ok, so as the writer of the article here are my thoughts...
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against
changing
it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at
least
in
English) which has nothing to do with race.
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but
rather as
a
stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution
and I'm
not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't
help
themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
Thanks, Richard _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to
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That's really looking for a cat's fifth leg. Blacklist has nothing to do with evil, it's just a list of things you don't want to see or use, and whitelist is a list of things you want to explicitly allow. Let's say we're talking about drivers, and I want to blacklist a specific drivers because it's clashing with the default. Does that mean that driver is evil? No, it's just means there's a conflict of versions or products. Trying to find good and evil in a technical issue is pointless and I agree with others that this is a non-issue discussion. The terms are not obfuscatory. They have been used for decades if not more, and people understand them without even reaching for a dictionary. If it makes you feel better, use another term. I for myself will not. My life is complicated enough to worry about terms that haven't and never had any foul meaning. For the records, I did read the thread.
Best regards, Lailah
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 01:43, Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know how to say this any more clearly. Please read back into the thread. The issue is not the use of the word "black."
The issue is the use of "blacklist/whitelist" where black and white are representative of evil and good respectively. It serves no useful purpose and is better expressed as allow/deny. Blacklist and whitelist are *themselves* obfuscatory terms. That's why it only makes more sense to stop using them.
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:20 PM Silvia Sánchez bhkohane@gmail.com wrote:
Hello all,
Since when the word "black" is bad? It's a colour. Same as white, blue, orange and pale pink. Changing the use of two terms associated with colours doesn't make any sense and will be confusing for everyone. I'm absolutely against it. We don't need to obfuscate the meaning of things or make it hard to understand to non-native English speakers. Also, did anyone actually got offended by this term? Or is it just a case of opening the umbrella before it rains?
Kind regards, Lailah
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 00:06, Richard Shaw hobbes1069@gmail.com wrote:
Ok, so as the writer of the article here are my thoughts...
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against
changing
it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at least
in
English) which has nothing to do with race.
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but rather
as a
stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution and
I'm
not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't help themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
Thanks, Richard _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 5:55 PM Silvia Sánchez bhkohane@gmail.com wrote:
That's really looking for a cat's fifth leg. Blacklist has nothing to do with evil, it's just a list of things you don't want to see or use, and whitelist is a list of things you want to explicitly allow. Let's say we're talking about drivers, and I want to blacklist a specific drivers because it's clashing with the default. Does that mean that driver is evil? No, it's just means there's a conflict of versions or products.
hey, so serious question: what does blacklist mean? is it a list to restrict or deny someone?
Trying to find good and evil in a technical issue is pointless and I agree with others that this is a non-issue discussion. The terms are not obfuscatory. They have been used for decades if not more, and people understand them without even reaching for a dictionary. If it makes you feel better, use another term. I for myself will not. My life is complicated enough to worry about terms that haven't and never had any foul meaning. For the records, I did read the thread.
Best regards, Lailah
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 01:43, Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know how to say this any more clearly. Please read back into the thread. The issue is not the use of the word "black."
The issue is the use of "blacklist/whitelist" where black and white are representative of evil and good respectively. It serves no useful purpose and is better expressed as allow/deny. Blacklist and whitelist are *themselves* obfuscatory terms. That's why it only makes more sense to stop using them.
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:20 PM Silvia Sánchez bhkohane@gmail.com wrote:
Hello all,
Since when the word "black" is bad? It's a colour. Same as white, blue, orange and pale pink. Changing the use of two terms associated with colours doesn't make any sense and will be confusing for everyone. I'm absolutely against it. We don't need to obfuscate the meaning of things or make it hard to understand to non-native English speakers. Also, did anyone actually got offended by this term? Or is it just a case of opening the umbrella before it rains?
Kind regards, Lailah
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 00:06, Richard Shaw hobbes1069@gmail.com wrote:
Ok, so as the writer of the article here are my thoughts...
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against
changing
it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at least
in
English) which has nothing to do with race.
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but rather
as a
stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution and
I'm
not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't help themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
Thanks, Richard _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives:
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Hello Vipul,
It's not referred to people most of the time. You can say, for example, "Ricky and his colleagues were blacklisted because of their political views" meaning they are pushed aside when they apply to jobs for political reasons. That's a common behaviour in dictatorships, but that's not the usual meaning. Typically a whitelist is a list of things or events you purposely want to allow. For example, email addresses you want to make sure won't be missed or overlooked. Or a list of input hardware you want your computer to use first or exclusively. In the same way, a blacklist is a list of things or events you want to leave out. For example, your computer is misbehaving and you suspect is one of your graphic cards. You blacklist one of them and reboot. That means the system will ignore that card and solely use the other. Or your website is getting spammed by a few senders. You blacklist their addresses and servers so your website is not taken down. An example of these terms working together would be the following: you want to allow certain programmes to connect to internet but not others. You whitelist the ones you want through the firewall and blacklist the ones you want to restrict partially or totally.
Hope this helps to clarify,
Kind regards, Lailah
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 14:28, Vipul Siddharth siddharthvipul1@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 5:55 PM Silvia Sánchez bhkohane@gmail.com wrote:
That's really looking for a cat's fifth leg. Blacklist has nothing to do with evil, it's just a list of things you don't want to see or use, and whitelist is a list of things you want to explicitly allow. Let's say we're talking about drivers, and I want to blacklist a specific drivers because it's clashing with the default. Does that mean that driver is evil? No, it's just means there's a conflict of versions or products.
hey, so serious question: what does blacklist mean? is it a list to restrict or deny someone?
Trying to find good and evil in a technical issue is pointless and I
agree
with others that this is a non-issue discussion. The terms are not obfuscatory. They have been used for decades if not more, and people understand them without even reaching for a dictionary. If it makes you feel better, use another term. I for myself will not.
My
life is complicated enough to worry about terms that haven't and never
had
any foul meaning. For the records, I did read the thread.
Best regards, Lailah
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 01:43, Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know how to say this any more clearly. Please read back into
the
thread. The issue is not the use of the word "black."
The issue is the use of "blacklist/whitelist" where black and white are representative of evil and good respectively. It serves no useful
purpose
and is better expressed as allow/deny. Blacklist and whitelist are *themselves* obfuscatory terms. That's why it only makes more sense to
stop
using them.
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:20 PM Silvia Sánchez bhkohane@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello all,
Since when the word "black" is bad? It's a colour. Same as white,
blue,
orange and pale pink. Changing the use of two terms associated with colours doesn't make any sense and will be confusing for everyone. I'm absolutely against it. We don't need to obfuscate the meaning of things or make it hard to understand to non-native English speakers. Also, did anyone actually got offended by this term? Or is it just a
case
of opening the umbrella before it rains?
Kind regards, Lailah
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 00:06, Richard Shaw hobbes1069@gmail.com
wrote:
Ok, so as the writer of the article here are my thoughts...
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against
changing
it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at
least
in
English) which has nothing to do with race.
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but
rather
as a
stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution
and
I'm
not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't
help
themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
Thanks, Richard _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to
magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines:
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List Archives:
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List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives:
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-- Vipul Siddharth He/His/Him Fedora | CentOS CI Infrastructure Team Red Hat w: vipul.dev
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 6:48 PM Silvia Sánchez bhkohane@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Vipul,
It's not referred to people most of the time. You can say, for example, "Ricky and his colleagues were blacklisted because of their political views" meaning they are pushed aside when they apply to jobs for political reasons. That's a common behaviour in dictatorships, but that's not the usual meaning. Typically a whitelist is a list of things or events you purposely want to allow. For example, email addresses you want to make sure won't be missed or overlooked. Or a list of input hardware you want your computer to use first or exclusively. In the same way, a blacklist is a list of things or events you want to leave out. For example, your computer is misbehaving and you suspect is one of your graphic cards. You blacklist one of them and reboot. That means the system will ignore that card and solely use the other. Or your website is getting spammed by a few senders. You blacklist their addresses and servers so your website is not taken down. An example of these terms working together would be the following: you want to allow certain programmes to connect to internet but not others. You whitelist the ones you want through the firewall and blacklist the ones you want to restrict partially or totally.
Hope this helps to clarify,
indeed it does. It's clear from the response that it's to allow/deny people/things be in politics/networking/ well.. anywhere! so why not just use allow/deny list? doesn't it make more sense to use it directly rather than a metaphor?
Kind regards, Lailah
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 14:28, Vipul Siddharth siddharthvipul1@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 5:55 PM Silvia Sánchez bhkohane@gmail.com wrote:
That's really looking for a cat's fifth leg. Blacklist has nothing to do with evil, it's just a list of things you don't want to see or use, and whitelist is a list of things you want to explicitly allow. Let's say we're talking about drivers, and I want to blacklist a specific drivers because it's clashing with the default. Does that mean that driver is evil? No, it's just means there's a conflict of versions or products.
hey, so serious question: what does blacklist mean? is it a list to restrict or deny someone?
Trying to find good and evil in a technical issue is pointless and I agree with others that this is a non-issue discussion. The terms are not obfuscatory. They have been used for decades if not more, and people understand them without even reaching for a dictionary. If it makes you feel better, use another term. I for myself will not. My life is complicated enough to worry about terms that haven't and never had any foul meaning. For the records, I did read the thread.
Best regards, Lailah
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 01:43, Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know how to say this any more clearly. Please read back into the thread. The issue is not the use of the word "black."
The issue is the use of "blacklist/whitelist" where black and white are representative of evil and good respectively. It serves no useful purpose and is better expressed as allow/deny. Blacklist and whitelist are *themselves* obfuscatory terms. That's why it only makes more sense to stop using them.
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:20 PM Silvia Sánchez bhkohane@gmail.com wrote:
Hello all,
Since when the word "black" is bad? It's a colour. Same as white, blue, orange and pale pink. Changing the use of two terms associated with colours doesn't make any sense and will be confusing for everyone. I'm absolutely against it. We don't need to obfuscate the meaning of things or make it hard to understand to non-native English speakers. Also, did anyone actually got offended by this term? Or is it just a case of opening the umbrella before it rains?
Kind regards, Lailah
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 00:06, Richard Shaw hobbes1069@gmail.com wrote:
Ok, so as the writer of the article here are my thoughts...
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against
changing
it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at least
in
English) which has nothing to do with race.
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but rather
as a
stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution and
I'm
not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't help themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
Thanks, Richard _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives:
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-- Vipul Siddharth He/His/Him Fedora | CentOS CI Infrastructure Team Red Hat w: vipul.dev
It is an interesting question, and the term "blacklist" has a myriad of meanings depending upon the context. There is a television series called The Black List in which the term means a list of evil people who are above the law... or so they believe. Amazon maintains a blacklist of certain books, though they will deny that they do. I know because my books are all on it. There was the famous blacklist of "commies" from the era of "Tailgunner" Joe McCarthy. In the context you use the term in your question (as applied to a person) it means both to restrict and deny. In the era of McCarthyism, many people had their livelihoods destroyed just because they were accused. There was a Black lady who was accused of something.... I don't remember her name or what she was accused of... but after a while it became obvious that this woman did not have anything close to the ability to have done what she was accused of. That was pretty much the end of McCarthyism.
In this thread, though, we are not applying it to people, just data.
Are black chess pieces "evil"? No, they are just diametrically opposed to the white pieces.
When I pick a product or service, I don't normally look into the race of the author, the owner of the business or the inventor of the product. Most of the people who care for my autistic son at his day program are Black. A book I just picked up called "War Girls" was written by a Black man. I note this because I've had the book for a few days now and just happened to notice the author's picture this morning.
I think that if a term like "blacklist" offends you, then you need to grow thicker skin. Years ago I was unloading a bunch of guns from the trunk of my car. It was probably about 2:30 in the morning and a couple of young men were walking down the sidewalk in front of my house.
"Whassup nigga?" of one them asked me. His buddy, who happened to be Black, immediately grabbed his head in his hands and bent forward making some kind of remark to his buddy upon realizing that an middle-aged white man had just been called something he might find offensive... and had an arm-load of guns that might or might not be loaded from his viewpoint.
I smiled and said "It's OK, I been called worse." ;)
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 05:58:30PM +0530, Vipul Siddharth wrote:
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 5:55 PM Silvia Sánchez bhkohane@gmail.com wrote:
That's really looking for a cat's fifth leg. Blacklist has nothing to do with evil, it's just a list of things you don't want to see or use, and whitelist is a list of things you want to explicitly allow. Let's say we're talking about drivers, and I want to blacklist a specific drivers because it's clashing with the default. Does that mean that driver is evil? No, it's just means there's a conflict of versions or products.
hey, so serious question: what does blacklist mean? is it a list to restrict or deny someone?
Trying to find good and evil in a technical issue is pointless and I agree with others that this is a non-issue discussion. The terms are not obfuscatory. They have been used for decades if not more, and people understand them without even reaching for a dictionary. If it makes you feel better, use another term. I for myself will not. My life is complicated enough to worry about terms that haven't and never had any foul meaning. For the records, I did read the thread.
Best regards, Lailah
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 01:43, Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know how to say this any more clearly. Please read back into the thread. The issue is not the use of the word "black."
The issue is the use of "blacklist/whitelist" where black and white are representative of evil and good respectively. It serves no useful purpose and is better expressed as allow/deny. Blacklist and whitelist are *themselves* obfuscatory terms. That's why it only makes more sense to stop using them.
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 3:20 PM Silvia Sánchez bhkohane@gmail.com wrote:
Hello all,
Since when the word "black" is bad? It's a colour. Same as white, blue, orange and pale pink. Changing the use of two terms associated with colours doesn't make any sense and will be confusing for everyone. I'm absolutely against it. We don't need to obfuscate the meaning of things or make it hard to understand to non-native English speakers. Also, did anyone actually got offended by this term? Or is it just a case of opening the umbrella before it rains?
Kind regards, Lailah
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 00:06, Richard Shaw hobbes1069@gmail.com wrote:
Ok, so as the writer of the article here are my thoughts...
I'm OK with changing the term if it add clarity, but I'm against
changing
it just because it contains the name "black".
It's a color. There are black pens, marks, crayons, etc (as far as reference to the color).
Blacklisting something (or someone) has a long history of use (at least
in
English) which has nothing to do with race.
I don't see changing this particular article as a problem, but rather
as a
stepping stone to a run-away issue for which there is no solution and
I'm
not in favor of "cleansing" language to appease people who can't help themselves from being offended even when there's no reason to be.
Thanks, Richard _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives:
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On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 04:32:35PM -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
- Should we discourage the use of whitelist and blacklist in Fedora
Magazine in favor of alternatives like "allow list" and "block list"/"deny list"?
- Should we start developing a style guide that addresses this and
other issues (e.g. the style of projects like "NetworkManager" (not "Network Manager") and other things both malign and benign (like using the words "simple" or "just") that a style guide normally covers)?
I think these both make sense.
I think that a "style guide" makes quite a bit of sense.
Applying "racist" connotations to "black" and "white" in this context is really kind of silly. It does nothing to address economic inequality which is really what the current social conflict is all about at it's base. Enough time and effort has been wasted on this subject anyway, so let's take Yoda's view and either do or not do.
A style guide would certainly solve this and potentially several other issues in one fell swoop. I for one hate having to Google acronyms when reading a highly technical work written by someone who thinks I know what "DNS" means. If I am reading an article on setting up a home network, I clearly do NOT know all the acronyms and an explanation after the first use would be a God-send.
Now, I am going back to my forner "lurker" status so you folks who know more than I do can get on with the important stuff.
Dale
On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 11:25:18AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 04:32:35PM -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
- Should we discourage the use of whitelist and blacklist in Fedora
Magazine in favor of alternatives like "allow list" and "block list"/"deny list"?
- Should we start developing a style guide that addresses this and
other issues (e.g. the style of projects like "NetworkManager" (not "Network Manager") and other things both malign and benign (like using the words "simple" or "just") that a style guide normally covers)?
I think these both make sense.
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
Hello all,
I was reluctant to continue this conversation since it has run it's course I think. However, there are a couple of points I think need to be clarified in the conversation. First, let's talk about what was proposed, by who, and it's purpose. What is being proposed is a guide for Editorial Board members of the Fedora Magazine to include a section on bias in words used in articles and specifically how to edit such articles. This was proposed by a senior member of the Editorial Board who is no stranger in the community. The purpose is for the Editorial Board to be more proactive in promoting inclusive non-biased conversations within the Fedora Community, by keeping articles non- biased. Second I want to point out the English language is an ever evolving language. Eventually, the use of allow/deny lists will likely be the norm, but not because Fedora Magazine Editorial Board members decided to make a guide, but because people will adopt them through daily use, much like "blacklist/whitelist" are the norm today.
Our community is open, our minds should be too.
Stephen
On Tue, 2020-06-23 at 16:32 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
Several comments on yesterday's fail2ban article[1], as well as some internal Red Hat mailing list traffic, raised concern with the use of the word "blacklist". While the etymology of the term is not racist, there are reasonable arguments to be made that it can contribute to unconscious bias. Its meaning is also less obvious than alternatives like "block list".
So there are two questions here:
- Should we discourage the use of whitelist and blacklist in Fedora
Magazine in favor of alternatives like "allow list" and "block list"/"deny list"?
- Should we start developing a style guide that addresses this and
other issues (e.g. the style of projects like "NetworkManager" (not "Network Manager") and other things both malign and benign (like using the words "simple" or "just") that a style guide normally covers)?
I am in favor of both of the above.
For anyone who is interested, I learned today that the latest update to the codespell package (currently in testing[2]) can flag some of these issues: codespell --builtin clear,rare,usage <filename>
[1] https://fedoramagazine.org/protect-your-system-with-fail2ban-and-firewalld-b... [2] https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2020-12bd755a7c
-- Ben Cotton He / Him / His Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream Red Hat TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
Reading through the thread in its entirety (and also have seen different sites with similar requests), I tend to agree with Dale, Richard and Silvia here. Similar to Richard, I am more someone who rather reads than writes, and I can clearly see that I may be burned for voicing my opinion here. However, I feel that this seems to be necessary to put things into perspective.
First of all, I agree that people and everything around them (including applied language) are constantly changing. New words are adopted and being used replacing others, which in turn run out of fashion. And that is the way life goes.
However, seeing the attempted (and applied) changes for the languages in the recent decade or two, it has mainly been a comedy show for me where some few people try to forcefully tie certain words meant for technical or otherwise specific topics into political views of inclusion for people, derailing the entire conversation and the meaning of what was tried to be said. Be it LGBT or the typical (and chiefly) American-viewed racism against their African-originated population. The latter being way less dominant if not (almost) entirely absent elsewhere on the planet. Living in Sweden, I have African and Chinese colleagues here as well and speaking to them about all topics so far, I have never seen anyone starting to voice concerns about certain technical terms taken as offensive. Likewise, I have never heard anyone complain about others using specific words. Everyone just takes the words for what they were intended for: the topic which was discussed.
Seeing this alarming trend of trying to put these less meaningful, but severely impacting changes of language into place, let us fast forward 20-50 years into the future. I can clearly see that we are in danger of running out of words we can use without offending someone somewhere on this planet.
People need to learn and understand that some words have several meanings and their single-mindedness to put them into a political context is not helping anyone (not even themselves). For me this is more in the direction of trolling/disruptive behavior/destructive criticism rather than it being constructive.
The purpose is for the Editorial Board to be more proactive in promoting inclusive non-biased conversations within the Fedora Community, by keeping articles non- biased.
I fail to see how "blacklist/whitelist" was biased until someone brought this entire conversation up in the first place. Only then, and only when putting in quite some effort to bend my point of view purposefully enough, I can see that they may under certain circumstances be seen as what this thread is all about. However, snapping out of it and trying me to get back into it, I would need to use the same extensive effort to make me think again along these lines.
Second I want to point out the English language is an ever evolving language. Eventually, the use of allow/deny lists will likely be the norm, but not because Fedora Magazine Editorial Board members decided to make a guide, but because people will adopt them through daily use, much like "blacklist/whitelist" are the norm today.
Adoption (or change), as I pointed out in my second paragraph above, is a normal course of change of an applied language and will occur over time when more and more people casually use the new word in favor of the old. This thread, much like other similar threads on different sites, however, is not about adoption, but points out that "it was wrong" to use certain words and that they should be changed, ideally immediately, if not retroactively, and hence, has nothing to do with adoption.
YES!!!! This conversation certainly has run its course. It has been analyzed and discussed ad nauseam by everyone who has an opinion on it. We've expressed our opinions en masse and it is time to either do or not do.
I don't know how such decisions are made... and I really don't care. We can take a poll, flip a coin or our Benevolent Dictor/Fearless Leader can simply make an Official Proclamation.
I, for one, if I ever have time to contribute, will not even bother to read any style guide. Those are for editors. If I ever write something that contains the word "blacklist", then I suppose it will get changed to a more platable word. If something I wrote gets modified in such a way that I don't approve, then I won't write anything else for the magazine. It's actually quite simple; I don't support Orwellian NewSpeak... which is really what this is.
Having the Internet is a wonderful thing! One can write anything one wishes and publish effortlessly. You don't even need an old platen press to print your books or California job cases full of expensive letterpress type in what used to be the dining room. You just key in the text and post it to your instant audience.
This is pretty much the dream of the Founding Fathers realized at last. You young folks of this generation have absolute freedom of expression. Use it as best you can. Don't hamstring yourselves with endless regulation because someone MIGHT take offense. Someone might take offense if I marry Lucy Liu... but if I ever decide to ask and she answers yes, I'll be damned if anyone will change my mind.
Now, as I type this, there are angry people on the streets of my country, there is a pandemic I and several others saw coming years ago ravaging the world, and there are shadowy figures (excuse me, I have to adjust my tin-foil hat) pulling the strings attached to the Stallinian useful idiots who are pulling down statues, burning buildings, and generally engaging in violent rebellion that nobody knows the outcome of.
Good luck to you folks with the Brave New World you are constructing. I shall not likely live to see the end of it... and of that I am glad.
Dale
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 10:03:54AM -0400, s40w5s@gmail.com wrote:
Hello all,
I was reluctant to continue this conversation since it has run it's course I think. However, there are a couple of points I think need to be clarified in the conversation. First, let's talk about what was proposed, by who, and it's purpose. What is being proposed is a guide for Editorial Board members of the Fedora Magazine to include a section on bias in words used in articles and specifically how to edit such articles. This was proposed by a senior member of the Editorial Board who is no stranger in the community. The purpose is for the Editorial Board to be more proactive in promoting inclusive non-biased conversations within the Fedora Community, by keeping articles non- biased. Second I want to point out the English language is an ever evolving language. Eventually, the use of allow/deny lists will likely be the norm, but not because Fedora Magazine Editorial Board members decided to make a guide, but because people will adopt them through daily use, much like "blacklist/whitelist" are the norm today.
Our community is open, our minds should be too.
Stephen
On Tue, 2020-06-23 at 16:32 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
Several comments on yesterday's fail2ban article[1], as well as some internal Red Hat mailing list traffic, raised concern with the use of the word "blacklist". While the etymology of the term is not racist, there are reasonable arguments to be made that it can contribute to unconscious bias. Its meaning is also less obvious than alternatives like "block list".
So there are two questions here:
- Should we discourage the use of whitelist and blacklist in Fedora
Magazine in favor of alternatives like "allow list" and "block list"/"deny list"?
- Should we start developing a style guide that addresses this and
other issues (e.g. the style of projects like "NetworkManager" (not "Network Manager") and other things both malign and benign (like using the words "simple" or "just") that a style guide normally covers)?
I am in favor of both of the above.
For anyone who is interested, I learned today that the latest update to the codespell package (currently in testing[2]) can flag some of these issues: codespell --builtin clear,rare,usage <filename>
[1] https://fedoramagazine.org/protect-your-system-with-fail2ban-and-firewalld-b... [2] https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2020-12bd755a7c
-- Ben Cotton He / Him / His Senior Program Manager, Fedora & CentOS Stream Red Hat TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
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