I'm using the new synaptics touchpad driver on my HP ZD7280. It works very, very well, better than it does in Windows. The scroll function is really handy.
I've got two small criticisms:
a) I dislike the "select when heldover" because it sometimes opens things I don't want to have opened. Is there a way to disable this ?
b) The cursor gets a little jumpy in the corners, most noticeably when trying to open the menu in KDE. I'm wondering if there is something in the cursor positioning algorithm that causes this.
I love how the tap and double tap work now.
Question: is there a way to set the synaptics device parameters in a graphical tool, ie like system-config-mouse ?
On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 11:04 -0700, Kim Lux wrote:
I'm using the new synaptics touchpad driver on my HP ZD7280. It works very, very well, better than it does in Windows. The scroll function is really handy.
And now that we've got the synaptics code team happy, can I bug y'all to PLEASE remove the dependency whereby rhpl requires synaptics?
Since up2date and yum and some other very useful stuff require synaptics in RC5, and since synaptics requires an xorg-x11 package which in turn requires some other stuff, I've got 40MB of cruft on a minimal install (including cups... what the heck does cups have to do with this?) that I cannot remove nicely thanks to synaptics.
I'm sure I would love the functionality too if I had one of these drives... but if I don't, why am I stuck with it?
Cheers,
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
And now that we've got the synaptics code team happy, can I bug y'all to PLEASE remove the dependency whereby rhpl requires synaptics?
Since up2date and yum and some other very useful stuff require synaptics in RC5, and since synaptics requires an xorg-x11 package which in turn requires some other stuff, I've got 40MB of cruft on a minimal install (including cups... what the heck does cups have to do with this?) that I cannot remove nicely thanks to synaptics.
yum doesn't depend on synaptics. (so removing up2date should be ok)
And I don't see the cups depending on synaptics...
Satish
------- # yum remove synaptics <snip>
Dependencies Resolved Transaction Listing: Remove: synaptics.i386 0:0.13.5-5
Performing the following to resolve dependencies: Remove: authconfig-gtk.i386 0:4.6.5-3.1 Remove: desktop-printing.i386 0:0.17-3 Remove: firstboot.noarch 0:1.3.33-1 Remove: hal-cups-utils.i386 0:0.5.2-8 Remove: rhn-applet.i386 0:2.1.16-1 Remove: rhpl.i386 0:0.148-1 Remove: system-config-date.noarch 0:1.7.11-1 Remove: system-config-display.noarch 0:1.0.23-1 Remove: system-config-keyboard.noarch 0:1.2.5-1 Remove: system-config-language.noarch 0:1.1.8-1 Remove: system-config-mouse.noarch 0:1.2.9-1 Remove: system-config-network.noarch 0:1.3.22-1 Remove: system-config-network-tui.noarch 0:1.3.22-1 Remove: system-config-packages.noarch 0:1.2.20-1 Remove: system-config-printer.i386 0:0.6.116-1 Remove: system-config-printer-gui.i386 0:0.6.116-1 Remove: system-config-rootpassword.noarch 0:1.1.6-1 Remove: system-config-securitylevel.i386 0:1.4.14-1 Remove: system-config-services.noarch 0:0.8.15-1 Remove: system-config-soundcard.noarch 0:1.2.10-1 Remove: up2date.i386 0:4.3.47-5 Remove: up2date-gnome.i386 0:4.3.47-5
man, 01.11.2004 kl. 07.42 skrev Satish Balay:
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
And now that we've got the synaptics code team happy, can I bug y'all to PLEASE remove the dependency whereby rhpl requires synaptics?
Since up2date and yum and some other very useful stuff require synaptics in RC5, and since synaptics requires an xorg-x11 package which in turn requires some other stuff, I've got 40MB of cruft on a minimal install (including cups... what the heck does cups have to do with this?) that I cannot remove nicely thanks to synaptics.
yum doesn't depend on synaptics. (so removing up2date should be ok)
And I don't see the cups depending on synaptics...
Satish
# yum remove synaptics
<snip>
Dependencies Resolved Transaction Listing: Remove: synaptics.i386 0:0.13.5-5
Performing the following to resolve dependencies: Remove: authconfig-gtk.i386 0:4.6.5-3.1
interesting. Ah! fingerprint scanning!
Remove: desktop-printing.i386 0:0.17-3
To print the fingerprints.
Remove: firstboot.noarch 0:1.3.33-1
Just to make sure that you read in the fingerprint at first boot
Remove: hal-cups-utils.i386 0:0.5.2-8
HAL is out to get you! It will kill you by jumping the printer at you! Don't you dare remove those memory modules...
Remove: rhn-applet.i386 0:2.1.16-1
just in case HAL don't get you.
Remove: rhpl.i386 0:0.148-1
In case rhn dont get you, they send a snake at you...
Remove: system-config-date.noarch 0:1.7.11-1
you know, those fingerprint need to be date stamped?
Remove: system-config-display.noarch 0:1.0.23-1
Sure. Display the fingerprints!
Remove: system-config-keyboard.noarch 0:1.2.5-1
For typomatic rate recognition. Besides you can make the keyboard bite unwanted visitors
Remove: system-config-language.noarch 0:1.1.8-1
Or just display them some language they don't understand. Will probably make it a bit more secure.
Remove: system-config-mouse.noarch 0:1.2.9-1
Since you can't configure the touchpad from there.
Remove: system-config-network.noarch 0:1.3.22-1
Shure! Got to send the fingerprints to another place!
Remove: system-config-network-tui.noarch 0:1.3.22-1
Have to be able to do it in text mode as well!
Remove: system-config-packages.noarch 0:1.2.20-1
Or by snail mail. Just package it up.
Remove: system-config-printer.i386 0:0.6.116-1
But to package it up you need the printer!
Remove: system-config-printer-gui.i386 0:0.6.116-1
Even in full life, color, and with stero!
Remove: system-config-rootpassword.noarch 0:1.1.6-1
You surely CAN use to protect any bad folks from stealing your root...
Remove: system-config-securitylevel.i386 0:1.4.14-1
Security! What is this all about!
Remove: system-config-services.noarch 0:0.8.15-1
Have to turn it on somewhere.
Remove: system-config-soundcard.noarch 0:1.2.10-1
And there is the stereo of the printconf-gui thing!
Remove: up2date.i386 0:4.3.47-5
So you can download new updated fingerprints of who not to let into your compuer...
Remove: up2date-gnome.i386 0:4.3.47-5
And have a little gnome to bite their toes...
Sorry if i wasted your time. I just had to...
On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 00:42 -0600, Satish Balay wrote:
yum doesn't depend on synaptics. (so removing up2date should be ok) And I don't see the cups depending on synaptics...
Satish, I can't seriously believe you find it OK for all that stuff you listed to depend on synaptics. Besides, on my RC5 system that's not all. Attempting to remove xorg-x11-libs and xorg-x11-Mesa-libGL says they are required by synaptics, which in turn is required by rhpl, and there goes most of the Fedora-specific stuff like up2date.
Attempting to remove cups takes a similar path, since freetype and fontconfig depend on xorg* and there you go. So yes, unless I remove rhpl and up2date, I cannot remove synaptics.
I just do not find it reasonable that the dependencies of a touchpad can be that far-reaching.
Cheers,
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 00:42 -0600, Satish Balay wrote:
yum doesn't depend on synaptics. (so removing up2date should be ok) And I don't see the cups depending on synaptics...
Satish, I can't seriously believe you find it OK for all that stuff you listed to depend on synaptics. Besides, on my RC5 system that's not all. Attempting to remove xorg-x11-libs and xorg-x11-Mesa-libGL says they are required by synaptics, which in turn is required by rhpl, and there goes most of the Fedora-specific stuff like up2date.
Attempting to remove cups takes a similar path, since freetype and fontconfig depend on xorg* and there you go. So yes, unless I remove rhpl and up2date, I cannot remove synaptics.
I just do not find it reasonable that the dependencies of a touchpad can be that far-reaching.
Well - you want to remove all x/gui packages anyway - and most (if not all) synaptic dependent packages (including up2date) are gui packages anyway - hence should be reomved (according to your minimal spec)
And I didn't think loosing up2date was a big deal - as yum would suffice in your minimal install. At one point - I thought you wanted to remove python as well - in which case you can fall-back on 'apt' to provide updates.
There is always a tradeoff on pushing synaptics into 'rhpl' - now multiple tools that might depend-on/configure synaptics can now use some common code from 'rhpl'.
Perhaps you could argue that rhpl should be split up into rhpl/rhpl-gui (not sure if this is feasiable or justified)
Could you list which packgaes you'd like to see gone (and are unable to remove) - which would add up to the 40M of savings? Synaptics by itself is 40k - so thats not it.<I'd like to see your listing from 'yum remove'>
Satish
On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 11:31 -0600, Satish Balay wrote:
Well - you want to remove all x/gui packages anyway - and most (if not all) synaptic dependent packages (including up2date) are gui packages anyway - hence should be removed (according to your minimal spec)
Up2date is not a GUI package. It is a text-mode tool. There is also up2date-gnome for those who additionally want a GUI tool, and rhn-applet to let them know in GNOME of needed updates. But up2date itself is text- based and has been key to keeping all my boxes properly patched.
And I didn't think loosing up2date was a big deal - as yum would suffice in your minimal install.
Losing up2date and keeping yum would be a viable alternative, but it is not my preferred method of operation. As I am trying to "give back" a little to the Fedora community and Red Hat, Inc. where I can, I prefer to use "native" tools where possible. Up2date is a clear example since it is the "native" tool for Fedora even though yum is also fully- supported, and up2date is also the package manager for RHEL.
So I prefer to use up2date, even if it has a small space penalty. If the difference is too large, then I'll settle for yum... but it is not my preferred option.
There is always a tradeoff on pushing synaptics into 'rhpl' - now multiple tools that might depend-on/configure synaptics can now use some common code from 'rhpl'.
Perhaps you could argue that rhpl should be split up into rhpl/rhpl-gui (not sure if this is feasiable or justified)
I don't understand the ramifications of those above, honestly... all I know is that synaptics didn't exist before, and it's instantly become a major roadblock to me. Happy to see it there for whomever has that type of hardware, but hate to see it intertwined in dependency hell.
I would understand synaptics requiring rhpl to be present. After all, "the rhpl package contains Python code used by programs in Red Hat Linux" is what "rpm -qi rhpl" says. What I cannot understand is that rhpl *requires* synaptics. That seems backwards.
Could you list which packgaes you'd like to see gone (and are unable to remove) - which would add up to the 40M of savings? Synaptics by itself is 40k - so thats not it.<I'd like to see your listing from 'yum remove'>
Well, the 40MB was an estimate and it turned out to be high. But here we go, I'll attempt to be as specific as possible. First let's try to eliminate freetype and fontconfig, and we find that xorg-x11-libs requires freetype and fontconfig. We try to remove xorg-x11-libs, which is required by xorg-x11-Mesa-libGL, and we try to remove that which is required by synaptics. Finally we try to remove synaptics and we get required by rhpl which is required by up2date.
Now, let's keep in mind that the "Size" reported by "rpm -qi" is misleading. For example, cups and cups-libs reported less than 600KB overall but removing them reduced disk space used by 6,068KB. Still, using this parameter we get:
fontconfig 244,563 freetype 2,433,842 xorg-x11-libs 6,260,002 xorg-x11-Mesa-libGL 474,388 synaptics 94,970 rhpl 1,109,176 up2date 4,442,185 ============ TOTAL: 15,059,126 (14,706KB)
Since, after all, this is a test system, I'm actually going to go through with this. Removing all these packages together results in a disk reduction of 16,888KB which is roughly 15% greater than expected by the Size parameter.
Of course, having done this and wiped up2date, then I can also remove a whole lot of other stuff which is kind of controversial. Sacrificing yum allows me to delete another 31,564KB of stuff, sacrificing passwd (dependencies again) allows me to delete another 10,944KB worth of sendmail, openldap, etc., and so on.
So there clearly *is* a problem here from my point of view. Note that just the rhpl dependency on synaptics forced me to lose up2date in order to remove another 10MB of stuff, and that in order to delete openldap I was forced to delete passwd! See my test doc (at the end) for details on my current progress:
http://www.simpaticus.com/small-netserver-fc3-howto.php
We need to improve on this somewhat. But as a first step, we need to make rhpl not depend on synaptics!
Cheers,
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 11:31 -0600, Satish Balay wrote:
Well - you want to remove all x/gui packages anyway - and most (if not all) synaptic dependent packages (including up2date) are gui packages anyway - hence should be removed (according to your minimal spec)
Up2date is not a GUI package. It is a text-mode tool. There is also up2date-gnome for those who additionally want a GUI tool, and rhn-applet to let them know in GNOME of needed updates. But up2date itself is text- based and has been key to keeping all my boxes properly patched.
Sorry - my mistake.
I would understand synaptics requiring rhpl to be present. After all, "the rhpl package contains Python code used by programs in Red Hat Linux" is what "rpm -qi rhpl" says. What I cannot understand is that rhpl *requires* synaptics. That seems backwards.
rhpl has code that requires synaptics.
[root@n-gage-11 ~]# rpm -ql rhpl | grep py$ | xargs grep -l synaptics /usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/rhpl/mouse.py /usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/rhpl/xhwstate.py
As you point out - this causes x11 dependency on up2date. I agree this is a bug that should be fixed.
My initial sugestion was - perhaps rhpl can be easily split into 'rhpl','rhpl-gui', thus preserving the required synaptics dep - and at the same time not pulling in 'x' depencencies for non-gui config tools.
fontconfig 244,563 freetype 2,433,842 xorg-x11-libs 6,260,002 xorg-x11-Mesa-libGL 474,388 synaptics 94,970 rhpl 1,109,176 up2date 4,442,185 ============ TOTAL: 15,059,126 (14,706KB)
Ok - among all these packages the false (synaptics) depencecy is causing grief only with up2date.
Satish
On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 18:36 -0600, Satish Balay wrote:
As you point out - this causes x11 dependency on up2date. I agree this is a bug that should be fixed.
Fantastic... how?
Ok - among all these packages the false (synaptics) depencecy is causing grief only with up2date.
Yes, this is precisely true. My phrasing was poor, since I meant to say that in order to keep up2date, I had to keep all these other packages.
Could you take a look at the doc to which I pointed you in the last message, and see if you can recommend some solutions to me? Specifically the second table of "controversial" package removals... I had to lose up2date to get rid of these 15MB, I had to lose yum to get rid of another 31MB, and I had to lose passwd to get rid of another 10MB. That's three crucial packages lost, but 56MB of stuff deleted.
What can I proactively suggest to the Fedora packagers and developers that will help all of us reduce the packages in a minimal install?
Cheers,
On Tue, 2004-11-02 at 08:25 -0600, Satish Balay wrote:
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 18:36 -0600, Satish Balay wrote:
As you point out - this causes x11 dependency on up2date. I agree this is a bug that should be fixed.
Fantastic... how?
Bugzilla?
Will it make me a bad person to say I'm starting to get very disenchanted with Bugzilla? If that's the primary means to track and resolve bugs, then I am all the more impressed with the work individual developers do since it doesn't seem to be all that useful (to be kind).
So how do you suggest I file it? Against rhpl which requires synaptics? Against synaptics which requires xorg*? Gotta say I'm not sure how to go about this here.
Cheers,
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
So how do you suggest I file it? Against rhpl which requires synaptics? Against synaptics which requires xorg*? Gotta say I'm not sure how to go about this here.
I would file it against 'rhpl'. The bug being 'rhpl' requiring 'xorg-x11-libs' (due to synaptics)- causing 'up2date' to require 'xorg-x11-libs' (and perhaps other xorg packages).
Satish
On Tue, 2004-11-02 at 09:53 -0600, Satish Balay wrote:
I would file it against 'rhpl'. The bug being 'rhpl' requiring 'xorg-x11-libs' (due to synaptics)- causing 'up2date' to require 'xorg-x11-libs' (and perhaps other xorg packages).
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=137935
Any support welcome! It would be a Great Thing [tm] indeed if this change could be made before the release of FC3. Otherwise we (the users) are going to be forced to jump through a lot of hoops to remove this.
Cheers,
On Tue, 2004-11-02 at 08:59 -0600, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
Will it make me a bad person to say I'm starting to get very disenchanted with Bugzilla? If that's the primary means to track and resolve bugs, then I am all the more impressed with the work individual developers do since it doesn't seem to be all that useful (to be kind).
It's far better to have things in bugzilla than random mail - it's easier to track, etc. Particularly having been away for a few days.
So how do you suggest I file it? Against rhpl which requires synaptics? Against synaptics which requires xorg*? Gotta say I'm not sure how to go about this here.
Against rhpl, the fix will be better run time detection of both h/w and conditional on if the driver is available. The same needs to be done for wacom tablets too.
Paul
On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 00:31 -0600, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 11:04 -0700, Kim Lux wrote:
I'm using the new synaptics touchpad driver on my HP ZD7280. It works very, very well, better than it does in Windows. The scroll function is really handy.
And now that we've got the synaptics code team happy, can I bug y'all to PLEASE remove the dependency whereby rhpl requires synaptics?
For FC4 sure - have you logged it in bugzilla? If not please file against rhpl and CC me.
Paul
On Tue, 2004-11-02 at 14:29 -0500, Paul Nasrat wrote:
For FC4 sure - have you logged it in bugzilla? If not please file against rhpl and CC me.
Filed as Bug #137935 (see my other post) against rhpl. Is there any possible way we can get this particular dependency removed before release of FC3? I mean hey... it only crawled in there very recently, it can't be *that* hard to dig out, right?
Of course I'm kidding, and I know nothing is that easy. But really, for those of us installing boxes in 1GB or less of hard drive space, it really is an additional complication. The quicker it can be addressed, the better for us.
You might find my efforts at slimming down FC3 interesting (and I could sure use any constructive feedback from you, too):
http://www.simpaticus.com/linux/small-netserver-fc3-howto.php
Cheers,
On Oct 31, 2004, Kim Lux lux@diesel-research.com wrote:
a) I dislike the "select when heldover" because it sometimes opens things I don't want to have opened. Is there a way to disable this ?
/usr/share/doc/synaptics*/README
b) The cursor gets a little jumpy in the corners, most noticeably when trying to open the menu in KDE. I'm wondering if there is something in the cursor positioning algorithm that causes this.
Edge scrolling? You can turn that off if you like.
Question: is there a way to set the synaptics device parameters in a graphical tool, ie like system-config-mouse ?
There is such a graphical tool, but it's not in Fedora Core, and you have to have SHMConfig enabled. I don't remember the exact name of the tool, but I googled around for it a bit and found it very quickly.
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Alexandre Oliva -
Kim Lux -
Kyrre Ness Sjobak -
Paul Nasrat -
Rodolfo J. Paiz -
Satish Balay