Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers, instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
In my personal opinion, the release notes belong in "help" or something like that (even a shortcut on the standard desktop would be more intuitive) - not as the standard homepage in every browser.
This confuses people, and addmitedly, the release notes aren't that much usefull to the users as the standard homepage - especially in firefox, where the standard is: http://www.google.no/firefox?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:nb-NO:offi... which is simply a google search with some hints on using firefox etc.
Kyrre Ness Sjøbæk
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 14:32 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers, instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
for me the "upstream" mantra applies far more to the code than to any actual settings of applications. If the user can and should change things, I don't see an issue with Fedora doing so as shipped as well.
lør, 07.05.2005 kl. 15.41 skrev Arjan van de Ven:
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 14:32 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers, instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
for me the "upstream" mantra applies far more to the code than to any actual settings of applications. If the user can and should change things, I don't see an issue with Fedora doing so as shipped as well.
But you still ship with "spatial" nautilus, and the last discussion about it (as far as i remember) contained a lot of "upstream is configured with spatial as default, so we must as well"...
Kyrre Sjøbæk
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 17:43 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
But you still ship with "spatial" nautilus, and the last discussion about it (as far as i remember) contained a lot of "upstream is configured with spatial as default, so we must as well"...
Once I got use to spatial nautilus, it's actually what I prefer.
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 12:42 -0700, Michael A. Peters wrote:
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 17:43 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
But you still ship with "spatial" nautilus, and the last discussion about it (as far as i remember) contained a lot of "upstream is configured with spatial as default, so we must as well"...
Once I got use to spatial nautilus, it's actually what I prefer.
I tried to get used to it, but found the way it opened new windows on top of the old ones really annoying.
On Sun, 2005-05-08 at 13:28 +0200, nodata wrote:
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 12:42 -0700, Michael A. Peters wrote:
Once I got use to spatial nautilus, it's actually what I prefer.
I tried to get used to it, but found the way it opened new windows on top of the old ones really annoying.
Yes, that can be annoying. Thankfully, because Nautilus remembers the position and size of a window when it was last opened, it gets better with time. I have a folder filled with many PDFs. Previously, to open a specific PDF I'd have to scan the list until I found the one I wanted. Now thanks to spatial Nautilus, I can quickly find the one's I use most frequently by automatically homing in on their location on the screen. Because so many have similar names, this is faster than even tab completion. (And now that I have evince showing thumbnails in Nautilus, it's pretty easy to find less frequently used PDfs also.)
A giant thank you to the developers of nautilus and evince!
Stuart Jansen wrote:
On Sun, 2005-05-08 at 13:28 +0200, nodata wrote:
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 12:42 -0700, Michael A. Peters wrote:
Once I got use to spatial nautilus, it's actually what I prefer.
I tried to get used to it, but found the way it opened new windows on top of the old ones really annoying.
Yes, that can be annoying. Thankfully, because Nautilus remembers the position and size of a window when it was last opened, it gets better with time. I have a folder filled with many PDFs. Previously, to open a specific PDF I'd have to scan the list until I found the one I wanted. Now thanks to spatial Nautilus, I can quickly find the one's I use most frequently by automatically homing in on their location on the screen. Because so many have similar names, this is faster than even tab completion. (And now that I have evince showing thumbnails in Nautilus, it's pretty easy to find less frequently used PDfs also.)
A giant thank you to the developers of nautilus and evince!
I don't know if it has been mentioned before in this thread, but if you want the next spatial view to open in the same window that you are clicking in, just "middle click" the entry and it will use the same window. I find this feature along with the spatial paradigm to be the best file navigation facility around. It took some time to get used to, but I almost never open a Browse Window anymore.
Gerry
man, 09.05.2005 kl. 16.14 skrev Gerry Tool:
Stuart Jansen wrote:
On Sun, 2005-05-08 at 13:28 +0200, nodata wrote:
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 12:42 -0700, Michael A. Peters wrote:
Once I got use to spatial nautilus, it's actually what I prefer.
I tried to get used to it, but found the way it opened new windows on top of the old ones really annoying.
Yes, that can be annoying. Thankfully, because Nautilus remembers the position and size of a window when it was last opened, it gets better with time. I have a folder filled with many PDFs. Previously, to open a specific PDF I'd have to scan the list until I found the one I wanted. Now thanks to spatial Nautilus, I can quickly find the one's I use most frequently by automatically homing in on their location on the screen. Because so many have similar names, this is faster than even tab completion. (And now that I have evince showing thumbnails in Nautilus, it's pretty easy to find less frequently used PDfs also.)
A giant thank you to the developers of nautilus and evince!
I don't know if it has been mentioned before in this thread, but if you want the next spatial view to open in the same window that you are clicking in, just "middle click" the entry and it will use the same window. I find this feature along with the spatial paradigm to be the best file navigation facility around. It took some time to get used to, but I almost never open a Browse Window anymore.
Gerry
But there is something *really* lacking from spatial - the adressbar etc. - its so usefull to be able to use SSH etc. without having to know to hit "control+L"...
On Mon, 2005-05-09 at 19:07 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
But there is something *really* lacking from spatial - the adressbar etc. - its so usefull to be able to use SSH etc. without having to know to hit "control+L"...
It's in the file menu - even with spatial
man, 09.05.2005 kl. 20.37 skrev Michael A. Peters:
On Mon, 2005-05-09 at 19:07 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
But there is something *really* lacking from spatial - the adressbar etc. - its so usefull to be able to use SSH etc. without having to know to hit "control+L"...
It's in the file menu - even with spatial
making the user dig into the menu all the time is not something i am a big fan about. Probably not most other users as well.
Not that that is a mandate for making an interface that looks like it has been created with a button-machinegun (as *some* programs on another, well known DE do sometimes look like)
Anyway, lets just stop this discussion about spatial nautilus. It isn't going anywhere.
Kyrre
On Sun, 2005-05-08 at 13:28 +0200, nodata wrote:
I tried to get used to it, but found the way it opened new windows on top of the old ones really annoying.
Yes it does - which is why you right click to browse folder if you don't want that happening. Where I find that useful though -
launch homedir open rpm directory - yes, it open on top of home dir open spec files directory - yes it opens on top of rpm dir on top of home dir drag spec file to my webdav server for sharing ctrl-w and spec file directory is instantly closed - leaving me with rpm directory open source directory - copy patches to my webdav server for public sharing ctrl-w to close that open srpms directory
It's much easier imho to use spatial in these scenarios imho. I can also just drag a window off.
Spatial feels a lot like the classic Mac OS Finder did - I like that a lot. And when I want to browse - I browse. Typically all I ever browse are my ftp server, webdav server, and removable media. Those all have icons on the desktop all the time making it easy to choose to browse (via right click).
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 17:43 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
lør, 07.05.2005 kl. 15.41 skrev Arjan van de Ven:
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 14:32 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers, instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
for me the "upstream" mantra applies far more to the code than to any actual settings of applications. If the user can and should change things, I don't see an issue with Fedora doing so as shipped as well.
But you still ship with "spatial" nautilus, and the last discussion about it (as far as i remember) contained a lot of "upstream is configured with spatial as default, so we must as well"...
It's probably relevant in this case that the upstream maintainers in question are also the Red Hat maintainers ;-)
Havoc
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 14:32 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers, instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
In my personal opinion, the release notes belong in "help" or something like that (even a shortcut on the standard desktop would be more intuitive) - not as the standard homepage in every browser.
Why should loading the Google homepage be more correct that showing the release notes for the operating system I've just installed?
Google has nothing to do with Firefox, except that it's a search engine that I might use with it. People that want to use Google can type something in the search box.
This confuses people, and addmitedly, the release notes aren't that much usefull to the users as the standard homepage - especially in firefox,
Who does it confuse? Why were they confused?
where the standard is: http://www.google.no/firefox?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:nb-NO:offi... which is simply a google search with some hints on using firefox etc.
Kyrre Ness Sjøbæk
lør, 07.05.2005 kl. 17.52 skrev nodata:
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 14:32 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers, instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
In my personal opinion, the release notes belong in "help" or something like that (even a shortcut on the standard desktop would be more intuitive) - not as the standard homepage in every browser.
Why should loading the Google homepage be more correct that showing the release notes for the operating system I've just installed?
Because the average end-user (non-admin) is more interested in googling for her friend's hollyday picures than reading a bunch of non-interesting technical documentation.
Google has nothing to do with Firefox, except that it's a search engine that I might use with it. People that want to use Google can type something in the search box.
And it is upstream default. People see "firefox" and expect to have a google search with firefox tips as the standard homepage. Perhaps it could be made into a google (or whatever) search with fedora tips?
This confuses people, and addmitedly, the release notes aren't that much usefull to the users as the standard homepage - especially in firefox,
Who does it confuse? Why were they confused?
They are confused because the browser looks like firefox but doesn't behave like firefox.
where the standard is: http://www.google.no/firefox?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:nb-NO:offi... which is simply a google search with some hints on using firefox etc.
Kyrre Ness Sjøbæk
On Sat, May 07, 2005 at 07:08:18PM +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
And it is upstream default. People see "firefox" and expect to have a google search with firefox tips as the standard homepage. Perhaps it could be made into a google (or whatever) search with fedora tips?
[...]
They are confused because the browser looks like firefox but doesn't behave like firefox.
This seems like crazy-talk. The default start page has been a customizable feature in web browsers since, well, the beginning of web browsers. I don't think people have any strong expectation of it going to some per-browser branded page.
I've *never* seen anyone come over to my house and start Firefox and be confused that it goes to my home page instead of some generic one.
It is also *definitely* wrong to point at Google by default. As cool as they may be, they're a for-profit commercial entity with no relation to Fedora.
I think the Fedora portal page idea is a good one.
Matthew Miller wrote:
On Sat, May 07, 2005 at 07:08:18PM +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
And it is upstream default. People see "firefox" and expect to have a google search with firefox tips as the standard homepage. Perhaps it could be made into a google (or whatever) search with fedora tips?
[...]
They are confused because the browser looks like firefox but doesn't behave like firefox.
This seems like crazy-talk. The default start page has been a customizable feature in web browsers since, well, the beginning of web browsers. I don't think people have any strong expectation of it going to some per-browser branded page.
I've *never* seen anyone come over to my house and start Firefox and be confused that it goes to my home page instead of some generic one.
It is also *definitely* wrong to point at Google by default. As cool as they may be, they're a for-profit commercial entity with no relation to Fedora.
I think the Fedora portal page idea is a good one.
Hi, about:blank, i think this is a really good defaultpage, fast and free of bugs ;-) Felix
On Sat, May 07, 2005 at 08:11:38PM +0200, Felix Becker wrote:
about:blank, i think this is a really good defaultpage, fast and free of bugs ;-)
Yeah, except it might appear that the browser is broken.
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 19:08 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
And it is upstream default. People see "firefox" and expect to have a google search with firefox tips as the standard homepage. Perhaps it could be made into a google (or whatever) search with fedora tips?
*snip*
They are confused because the browser looks like firefox but doesn't behave like firefox.
Most people who might be confused by that set up their internet access through the CD that their ISP gives them, which sets the default home page to the ISP's portal.
Those who download and install FireFox on their own most often ask it to import their bookmarks etc. from Mozilla, Netscape, or IE.
No one is going to be confused by the different default start page. It does however make them aware of the release notes and where to read them.
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 17:52 +0200, nodata wrote:
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 14:32 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers, instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
In my personal opinion, the release notes belong in "help" or something like that (even a shortcut on the standard desktop would be more intuitive) - not as the standard homepage in every browser.
Why should loading the Google homepage be more correct that showing the release notes for the operating system I've just installed?
..Umm, because if you really are religiously following the "Upstream" mantra, it's the most logical choice regardless of the OS I just installed. Then again, Firefox behavior with respect to installation of extensions and location of certain things on Fedora is not consistent with where Firefox normally puts things either. Both the Firefox and Fedora teams seem to have good reasons for the way they are doing things as well.
Google has nothing to do with Firefox, except that it's a search engine that I might use with it. People that want to use Google can type something in the search box.
It also might be that Google does indeed have something to do with Firefox. Didn't they hire the Firefox lead developers and do some other behind the scenes support? Isn't that also at least partly why Google is the default search engine in the search bar, despite others also being there?
This confuses people, and addmitedly, the release notes aren't that much usefull to the users as the standard homepage - especially in firefox,
Who does it confuse? Why were they confused?
Actually, it confuses the average Joe user of Fedora (like my mother, for instance) who doesn't really give a rip about reading the release notes.
I agree the default page in Firefox likely isn't the best place and would prefer an alternate but easy way to access them.
I also think this is more of a tempest in a teapot as well. My mom, for example, just changed the default page to be what she wanted.
...without reading the release notes or complaining the default was set that way.
Cheers,
Chris
-- ==================================== "If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence, try orderin' someone else's dog around." --Cowboy Wisdom
On Sat, May 07, 2005 at 01:21:32PM -0600, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
..Umm, because if you really are religiously following the "Upstream" mantra, it's the most logical choice regardless of the OS I just
This is *data*, not code.
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 14:32 +0200, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
Today we use the release notes as standard homepage for all browsers, instead of whatever is upstream default. Why do we do that, while constantly repeating the mantra "upstream!, upstream!, upstream!"?
In my personal opinion, the release notes belong in "help" or something like that (even a shortcut on the standard desktop would be more intuitive) - not as the standard homepage in every browser.
This confuses people, and addmitedly, the release notes aren't that much usefull to the users as the standard homepage - especially in firefox, where the standard is: http://www.google.no/firefox?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:nb-NO:offi... which is simply a google search with some hints on using firefox etc.
If a site actually deploys fedora to tend users, they certainly shouldn't leave the release notes as the default page.
But the target for fedora really is the enthusiast community; while we encourage people to use it in others ways, the prototypical Fedora user is someone who:
- Installs their own machine (**) - cares about the software they just installed - Has a good chance of following further links and getting involved with Fedora
This is someone who is going to get a benefit from seeing the release notes (*)
I don't think there is any attempt to say that the release notes are what anybody will leave as their homepage, but
It might be even cooler to have some sort of "fedora portal" (I use that word with great reluctance, but I don't know a better one) as the default homepage... but that would take a lot more active resources than the release notes.
Regards, Owen
(*) The obvious question then is why we don't configure the default desktop for a hacker... at least add a terminal launcher. There are multiple reasons here .. *my* personal take on it is that "configured for the hacker" often leads to sloppiness where the end-user configuration is just an untested veneer with a bunch of good looking knobs. Not so much of a concern for the default homepage, which will be changed anyways.
(**) If we could identify the user who installed the machine and give just *them* the release notes, that might be cool, but it's not obvious how to make that identification.
On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 12:52 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote:
It might be even cooler to have some sort of "fedora portal" (I use that word with great reluctance, but I don't know a better one) as the default homepage... but that would take a lot more active resources than the release notes.
Default homepage should be a local file, not a web file. It could have a link to external, but it should be local file.
Local file will work regardless of whether or not networking is up, dns is working, etc. Opening a new window is also much faster if it is from local file.
Perhaps a more informative page (but a local page) with links to documentation, including the release notes, would be a better default than just the release notes.
A brief page with links to: release notes (local file) FAQ (local file) /usr/share/doc user list a search box to search the user list
-
Arjan van de Ven -
Christopher A. Williams -
Felix Becker -
Gerry Tool -
Havoc Pennington -
Kyrre Ness Sjobak -
Matthew Miller -
Michael A. Peters -
nodata -
Owen Taylor -
Stuart Jansen