Justin has raised an interesting question on his weblog concerning Fedora core and the amd64-- should developers waste time on FC1 x86_64 or put their efforts into FC2 which will be available "real soon now"?
I can see arguments for both situations but I wonder what other amd64 users think.
1. With limited developer resources and FC2 test2 about two weeks away (it will have a x86_64 snapshot with needed i386 packages), the better option is to put the resources into getting FC2 "right". With the test1 snapshot as a base and all of the package updates in development, the x86_64 versions should be in pretty good shape. Furthermore, the Red Hat build process is set up to handle x86_64 builds for development (and FC2 Test2) whereas x86_64 updated packages are few and far between. When the test2 snapshot rolls out, x86_64 updates will be available as a matter of course (or at least that is the plan).
2. At the current time, FC1 is more stable (especially with all of the updates applied) than the current state of FC2 (as could be expected since FC2 is still in development and testing). In addition, it is not at all difficult to rebuild the ix86 packages for the x86_64 (I have done this for the current set of updates). FC1 test1 + updates is a fairly stable platform and should be pretty close to what would be available if FC1 x86_64 final was released.
So, work on getting FC2 with varying stability (there will be problems) or put time in to roll out a FC1 x86_64 final? At the present time, I lean toward option 1. I do have a working FC1 test1 plus all updates so the release of the FC2 x86_64 final will be of little value to me except to do testing for the community.
I have built all of the ix86 updated packages (as applicable) and even include mozilla 1.6 from development to provide a 64 bit mozilla. Together with some others who are interested in a FC1 x86_64 system, I could make the rebuilt packages available on a "it works for me but use at your own risk" basis.
Comments?
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004, Gene C. wrote:
Justin has raised an interesting question on his weblog concerning Fedora core and the amd64-- should developers waste time on FC1 x86_64 or put their efforts into FC2 which will be available "real soon now"?
I can see advantages and disadvantages to both decisions. I'll comment below.
I can see arguments for both situations but I wonder what other amd64 users think.
I would assume that most AMD64 users want something useable ASAP, so that they can use their favourite OS with their new AMD64 systems. The fastest way to get that is to release Fedora Core 1 for AMD64.
- With limited developer resources and FC2 test2 about two
weeks away (it will have a x86_64 snapshot with needed i386 packages), the better option is to put the resources into getting FC2 "right". With the test1 snapshot as a base and all of the package updates in development, the x86_64 versions should be in pretty good shape. Furthermore, the Red Hat build process is set up to handle x86_64 builds for development (and FC2 Test2) whereas x86_64 updated packages are few and far between. When the test2 snapshot rolls out, x86_64 updates will be available as a matter of course (or at least that is the plan).
All RPM packages are built on all 7 architectures, both in Fedora Core 1, and Fedora Core 2, so from that angle, it doesn't make any more work than we already have, to produce AMD64 packages.
There is some overhead involved with producing updates, but _only_ if they are AMD64 specific updates. If they were updates for x86 anyway, releasing for both x86 and AMD64 shouldn't really pose additional effort.
For the most part, any additional effort required for AMD64, would most likely have to be done for RHEL3, and Fedora Core 2 development also.
The only problem I see from the "work" angle, is that when Fedora Core 1 goes end of life, it should go end of life on all architectures simultaneously in my opinion, however if AMD64 release trails it, then either the AMD64 release isn't supported for the same length of time from it's initial release, or else additional effort would have to be spent supporting the AMD64 release for n months from release date. However if we supported AMD64 for the same length of time as we planned to support x86, then we might as well support both of them until the same EOL date, as everything builds on both arches anyway.
Again, this is just some of my thoughts, bouncing in the air.
- At the current time, FC1 is more stable (especially with all
of the updates applied) than the current state of FC2 (as could be expected since FC2 is still in development and testing). In addition, it is not at all difficult to rebuild the ix86 packages for the x86_64 (I have done this for the current set of updates). FC1 test1 + updates is a fairly stable platform and should be pretty close to what would be available if FC1 x86_64 final was released.
Agreed. And even after FC2 is finally released, it might be a while before a 2.6.x based distribution could be considered as stable as a final 2.4.x based distribution. In that case, I would prefer myself to be running FC1 on an AMD64 box.
So, work on getting FC2 with varying stability (there will be problems) or put time in to roll out a FC1 x86_64 final? At the present time, I lean toward option 1. I do have a working FC1 test1 plus all updates so the release of the FC2 x86_64 final will be of little value to me except to do testing for the community.
I think you got your FC1's and FC2's mixed up in that last sentence. Could you clarify?
IMHO, we should release FC1 for AMD64 because enough people have spent effort on it that it would be wasted if it wasn't released. It just wont likely have the same lifespan as the x86 release did, because it has been released much later than the x86 release.
What is currently blocking FC1/AMD64 from being released anyway?
On Tue, 2004-02-24 at 12:50, Mike A. Harris wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004, Gene C. wrote:
- With limited developer resources and FC2 test2 about two
weeks away (it will have a x86_64 snapshot with needed i386 packages), the better option is to put the resources into getting FC2 "right". With the test1 snapshot as a base and all of the package updates in development, the x86_64 versions should be in pretty good shape. Furthermore, the Red Hat build process is set up to handle x86_64 builds for development (and FC2 Test2) whereas x86_64 updated packages are few and far between. When the test2 snapshot rolls out, x86_64 updates will be available as a matter of course (or at least that is the plan).
All RPM packages are built on all 7 architectures, both in Fedora Core 1, and Fedora Core 2, so from that angle, it doesn't make any more work than we already have, to produce AMD64 packages.
There is some overhead involved with producing updates, but _only_ if they are AMD64 specific updates. If they were updates for x86 anyway, releasing for both x86 and AMD64 shouldn't really pose additional effort.
it would be nice if FC1 updates were pushed to the mirrors. why isn't this happening now, if the updates are already being built?
will FC1 updates for x86_64 be pushed when FC1 for x86_64 final is released?
thanks
rob.
On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 01:10:12PM -0500, Rob Myers wrote:
it would be nice if FC1 updates were pushed to the mirrors. why isn't this happening now, if the updates are already being built?
I believe this is a result of the manual push required for test1.
will FC1 updates for x86_64 be pushed when FC1 for x86_64 final is released?
They should.
Justin
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004, Rob Myers wrote:
All RPM packages are built on all 7 architectures, both in Fedora Core 1, and Fedora Core 2, so from that angle, it doesn't make any more work than we already have, to produce AMD64 packages.
There is some overhead involved with producing updates, but _only_ if they are AMD64 specific updates. If they were updates for x86 anyway, releasing for both x86 and AMD64 shouldn't really pose additional effort.
it would be nice if FC1 updates were pushed to the mirrors. why isn't this happening now, if the updates are already being built?
will FC1 updates for x86_64 be pushed when FC1 for x86_64 final is released?
I don't know the answers to those questions unfortunately. I just work here. ;o)
On Tuesday 24 February 2004 12:50, Mike A. Harris wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004, Gene C. wrote:
[snip]
All RPM packages are built on all 7 architectures, both in Fedora Core 1, and Fedora Core 2, so from that angle, it doesn't make any more work than we already have, to produce AMD64 packages.
There is some overhead involved with producing updates, but _only_ if they are AMD64 specific updates. If they were updates for x86 anyway, releasing for both x86 and AMD64 shouldn't really pose additional effort.
I agree. However, when I sent a private message to Mark McLoughlin yesterday (private because the mailing lists were hosed), he sent the following to Bill Nottingham:
Hi Gene, Sorry, but I've no idea.
Bill, are testing updates only released for i386 or ...?
Cheers, Mark.
And Bill's response was:
Currently only releases for x86 in general, because of the way the process works.
Bill
[snip]
The only problem I see from the "work" angle, is that when Fedora Core 1 goes end of life, it should go end of life on all architectures simultaneously in my opinion, however if AMD64 release trails it, then either the AMD64 release isn't supported for the same length of time from it's initial release, or else additional effort would have to be spent supporting the AMD64 release for n months from release date. However if we supported AMD64 for the same length of time as we planned to support x86, then we might as well support both of them until the same EOL date, as everything builds on both arches anyway.
EOL should be the current EOL for FC1. The fact that it might be shorter for amd64 is not something I consider important.
Again, this is just some of my thoughts, bouncing in the air.
- At the current time, FC1 is more stable (especially with all
of the updates applied) than the current state of FC2 (as could be expected since FC2 is still in development and testing). In addition, it is not at all difficult to rebuild the ix86 packages for the x86_64 (I have done this for the current set of updates). FC1 test1 + updates is a fairly stable platform and should be pretty close to what would be available if FC1 x86_64 final was released.
Agreed. And even after FC2 is finally released, it might be a while before a 2.6.x based distribution could be considered as stable as a final 2.4.x based distribution. In that case, I would prefer myself to be running FC1 on an AMD64 box.
I have found that FC1 x86_64 test1 plus errata (should be close to what would/will be final) to be quite stable.
So, work on getting FC2 with varying stability (there will be problems) or put time in to roll out a FC1 x86_64 final? At the present time, I lean toward option 1. I do have a working FC1 test1 plus all updates so the release of the FC2 x86_64 final will be of little value to me except to do testing for the community.
I think you got your FC1's and FC2's mixed up in that last sentence. Could you clarify?
Oops. What I meant to say was that x86_64 FC1-test1 plus updates should be more or less identical to x86_64 FC1 final plus updates -- that is pretty much what I have now and thus the FC1 final will not improve things too much for me. However, not everyone has these updates available or necessarily the skills, etc. to create the updates themselves ... for them, we need a final.
IMHO, we should release FC1 for AMD64 because enough people have spent effort on it that it would be wasted if it wasn't released. It just wont likely have the same lifespan as the x86 release did, because it has been released much later than the x86 release.
From my perspective, the person doing most of the work is Justin and I believe
he sees doing both as a bit too much to be able to handle. I am not knocking him as he has done a lot of work for us all.
What is currently blocking FC1/AMD64 from being released anyway?
?? OK, over to you other folks at Red Hat.
On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 11:08:18AM -0500, Gene C. wrote:
Justin has raised an interesting question on his weblog concerning Fedora core and the amd64-- should developers waste time on FC1 x86_64 or put their efforts into FC2 which will be available "real soon now"?
That was not exactly what I was referring to. I think FC1 for x86_64 needs to go to release, simply for the people who care about the 2.4 kernels. I was referring to a test1 release for FC2. I had originally planned for a test1 of sorts, unofficial, for FC2, so that we were more inline with i386. As it stands, things are moving very quickly. I am installing from devel on a regular basis, but putting together a working installer with the 32bit deps, etc has proved troubling simply because of the rate of change. I would recommend people interested in a test1 for x86_64 install from rawhide, then add the 32bit RPMs that are important to you. Test2 should include an x86_64 release. As for FC1, I would like to get it out so that I can focus more on FC2, but I do not think sacrificing the release is the right thing to do, so I want to get things out as quickly as possible.
Justin
On Tuesday 24 February 2004 12:58, Justin M. Forbes wrote:
That was not exactly what I was referring to. I think FC1 for x86_64 needs to go to release, simply for the people who care about the 2.4 kernels. I was referring to a test1 release for FC2.
Sorry Justin. I misunderstood what you had said.
On Tue, 2004-02-24 at 11:08, Gene C. wrote:
Justin has raised an interesting question on his weblog concerning Fedora core and the amd64-- should developers waste time on FC1 x86_64 or put their efforts into FC2 which will be available "real soon now"?
I can see arguments for both situations but I wonder what other amd64 users think.
for my server application availability/stability is number one. my current configuration includes FC1 x86_64 test1 with a hand rolled 2.6 kernel.
my vote would be to support x86_64 fully with FC2 and thus kernel 2.6. hopefully when FC2 is released it will be just as stable as FC1 is.
rob.
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Gene C. -
Justin M. Forbes -
Mike A. Harris -
Piet Delaney -
Rob Myers