Hey all,
we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora,
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish
with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. We want to identify the small (and sometimes large) roadblocks that make everyday computer use harder than it needs to be, and try to fix them.
'Fit and Finish' is meant to be complementary to the work of the Fedora QA team. They do a great job of ensuring the quality of all the new features that land in Fedora each cycle. But when features are developed and tested on their own, the overall experience of the system as a whole can sometimes end up a bit uneven and rough. 'Fit and Finish' will focus on improving the way our users experience Fedora.
To achieve this, we will hold regular test days, each of which will focus on use cases in a certain area. A few ideas for test day topics can be found on the 'Fit and Finish' page already. If you have ideas for other areas that could benefit from this kind of attention, please let us know.
Our first test day will focus on display configuration, and will be held on Tuesday, July 7, from 12:00 to 21:00 UTC (8am -> 5pm EDT), in the fedora-fit-and-finish irc channel on FreeNode. Please come and join us there !
Matthias Clasen for the Desktop team
2009/6/29 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com:
Hey all,
we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora,
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish
with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop.
If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed.
we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora,
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish
with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop.
If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed.
Focus on rawhide will mean the next release will see the improvements :)
Peter
2009/6/29 Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com:
Focus on rawhide will mean the next release will see the improvements :)
That means, that the next release will be untested, as usual. So why create another useless initiative?
Please, keep in mind, that almost nodoby using Rawhide == nobody will participate except few paid Red Hat developers == useless initiative.
I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases.
On Jun 29, 2009, at 16:05, Peter Lemenkov lemenkov@gmail.com wrote:
2009/6/29 Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com:
Focus on rawhide will mean the next release will see the improvements :)
That means, that the next release will be untested, as usual. So why create another useless initiative?
Please, keep in mind, that almost nodoby using Rawhide == nobody will participate except few paid Red Hat developers == useless initiative.
I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases.
As much fun as it is to make up stats on the spot, I would ask you to show some proof that nobody uses rawhide. The amount of bug reports and users reporting proble S on mailing lists, irc, and forums begs to differ with your statement.
-- Jes
2009/6/30 Jesse Keating jkeating@j2solutions.net:
As much fun as it is to make up stats on the spot, I would ask you to show some proof that nobody uses rawhide.
Please, take a look at smolts statistics, for example. Don't fool yourself with wrong statement that many users (not redhat employees) using Rawhide.
On Jun 29, 2009, at 16:25, Peter Lemenkov lemenkov@gmail.com wrote:
2009/6/30 Jesse Keating jkeating@j2solutions.net:
As much fun as it is to make up stats on the spot, I would ask you to show some proof that nobody uses rawhide.
Please, take a look at smolts statistics, for example. Don't fool yourself with wrong statement that many users (not redhat employees) using Rawhide.
--
Smolt is totally opt in and not likely to be opted in by rawhide testers who reinstall often. The feed back we get from rawhide is enough to continue development efforts there. Without rawhide there would be no releases.
-- Jes
As much fun as it is to make up stats on the spot, I would ask you to show some proof that nobody uses rawhide.
Please, take a look at smolts statistics, for example. Don't fool yourself with wrong statement that many users (not redhat employees) using Rawhide.
Smolt statistics for example state there are currently 6 Fedora users are using a geode processor yet there are about a million XOs deployed known to be running Fedora..... is that accurate?
Peter
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Peter Robinson wrote:
As much fun as it is to make up stats on the spot, I would ask you to show some proof that nobody uses rawhide.
Please, take a look at smolts statistics, for example. Don't fool yourself with wrong statement that many users (not redhat employees) using Rawhide.
Smolt statistics for example state there are currently 6 Fedora users are using a geode processor yet there are about a million XOs deployed known to be running Fedora..... is that accurate?
I don't understand why it's so hard for people to actually understand the data they're reading instead of just bending it to fail to make a point. Accurate is subjective, better then nothing is what smolt is, and this thread has _NOTHING_ to do with Geode processors and XOs.
-Mike
As much fun as it is to make up stats on the spot, I would ask you to show some proof that nobody uses rawhide.
Please, take a look at smolts statistics, for example. Don't fool yourself with wrong statement that many users (not redhat employees) using Rawhide.
Smolt statistics for example state there are currently 6 Fedora users are using a geode processor yet there are about a million XOs deployed known to be running Fedora..... is that accurate?
I don't understand why it's so hard for people to actually understand the data they're reading instead of just bending it to fail to make a point. Accurate is subjective, better then nothing is what smolt is, and this thread has _NOTHING_ to do with Geode processors and XOs.
Its not. That was my point exactly. My point was the information in smolt is opt in (if its installed at all - on XO its currently not) so can't be used to tell who's using rawhide let alone whether they're employed by redhat or not. So the argument about users using rawhide was completely inaccurate.
Peter
Peter Lemenkov, Tue, 30 Jun 2009 00:25:10 +0400:
Please, take a look at smolts statistics, for example. Don't fool yourself with wrong statement that many users (not redhat employees) using Rawhide.
Actually in this case Red Hat employees are as good as any other user.
Matěj
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Jun 29, 2009, at 16:05, Peter Lemenkov lemenkov@gmail.com wrote:
2009/6/29 Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com:
Focus on rawhide will mean the next release will see the improvements :)
That means, that the next release will be untested, as usual. So why create another useless initiative?
Please, keep in mind, that almost nodoby using Rawhide == nobody will participate except few paid Red Hat developers == useless initiative.
I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases.
As much fun as it is to make up stats on the spot, I would ask you to show some proof that nobody uses rawhide.
The shape of Fedora 11 speaks for itself.
Seth Vidal wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
As much fun as it is to make up stats on the spot, I would ask you to show some proof that nobody uses rawhide.
The shape of Fedora 11 speaks for itself.
speaking of dramatic and negative.....
Yes, my Fedora 11 _desktop_ experience so far has been very negative, to say the least.
Focus on rawhide will mean the next release will see the improvements :)
That means, that the next release will be untested, as usual. So why create another useless initiative?
Huh? your on the devel list and you don't use rawhide? Maybe I should introduce you to the fedora-test list.....
Please, keep in mind, that almost nodoby using Rawhide == nobody will participate except few paid Red Hat developers == useless initiative.
I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases.
What a load of crap! I use rawhide as do hundreds of other testers. I don't use it on my work laptop until feature freeze but I do use it on my home laptop, netbook, a number of VMs and servers and I know LOTs of other people do......
Given that the release CD/DVD images/isos don't get updated and until they update there's no improvement what's the point?
Peter
2009/6/30 Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com:
I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases.
What a load of crap! I use rawhide as do hundreds of other testers.
You contradicting to yourself - if you have many (enough to say that their number is huge) crash test dummies with Rawhide enabled, when you don't need any other special initiatives. However, I still think that you need more *users*, average users. I repeat - users don't use Rawhide, and this initiative will be doomed.
Hi Peter,
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Peter Lemenkovlemenkov@gmail.com wrote:
2009/6/30 Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com:
I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases.
What a load of crap! I use rawhide as do hundreds of other testers.
You contradicting to yourself - if you have many (enough to say that their number is huge) crash test dummies with Rawhide enabled, when you don't need any other special initiatives. However, I still think that you need more *users*, average users. I repeat - users don't use Rawhide, and this initiative will be doomed.
I think your initial point was a reasonable one. However, I don't think there's really any need to pick a fight here. Allow some time for people to respond to your points. And perhaps "doomed" was a bit overly dramatic, no?
Another part of raising the bar is making this list a bit more user friendly. :)
Thanks, Jon
On Jun 29, 2009, at 16:43, William Jon McCann <william.jon.mccann@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi Peter,
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Peter Lemenkovlemenkov@gmail.com wrote:
2009/6/30 Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com:
I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases.
What a load of crap! I use rawhide as do hundreds of other testers.
You contradicting to yourself - if you have many (enough to say that their number is huge) crash test dummies with Rawhide enabled, when you don't need any other special initiatives. However, I still think that you need more *users*, average users. I repeat - users don't use Rawhide, and this initiative will be doomed.
I think your initial point was a reasonable one. However, I don't think there's really any need to pick a fight here. Allow some time for people to respond to your points. And perhaps "doomed" was a bit overly dramatic, no?
Another part of raising the bar is making this list a bit more user friendly. :)
Thanks Jon for making that point. This list has been far too unfriendly. We haven't needed to give anybody a timeout yet which means we're bein slightly more civil however we still are being full of the dramatics and over reactions. Peter does have good input bu it could have been presented in a more constructive way. I thank those that replied to the input and avoided being sucked into the dramatics.
-- Jes
Hey Peter,
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Peter Robinsonpbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
Focus on rawhide will mean the next release will see the improvements :)
That means, that the next release will be untested, as usual. So why create another useless initiative?
Huh? your on the devel list and you don't use rawhide? Maybe I should introduce you to the fedora-test list.....
Please, keep in mind, that almost nodoby using Rawhide == nobody will participate except few paid Red Hat developers == useless initiative.
I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases.
What a load of crap! I use rawhide as do hundreds of other testers. I don't use it on my work laptop until feature freeze but I do use it on my home laptop, netbook, a number of VMs and servers and I know LOTs of other people do......
Given that the release CD/DVD images/isos don't get updated and until they update there's no improvement what's the point?
Let's try not to let doomsayers drag down the level of debate here. The other Peter made a reasonable point that we can address without calling it a load of crap probably. We have a thread here that should be a light in the darkness. A way for us all to make something we love even better. Let's try to keep it positive.
Thanks, Jon
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Peter Robinsonpbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
Focus on rawhide will mean the next release will see the improvements :)
That means, that the next release will be untested, as usual. So why create another useless initiative?
Huh? your on the devel list and you don't use rawhide? Maybe I should introduce you to the fedora-test list.....
Please, keep in mind, that almost nodoby using Rawhide == nobody will participate except few paid Red Hat developers == useless initiative.
I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases.
What a load of crap! I use rawhide as do hundreds of other testers. I don't use it on my work laptop until feature freeze but I do use it on my home laptop, netbook, a number of VMs and servers and I know LOTs of other people do......
Given that the release CD/DVD images/isos don't get updated and until they update there's no improvement what's the point?
Let's try not to let doomsayers drag down the level of debate here. The other Peter made a reasonable point that we can address without calling it a load of crap probably. We have a thread here that should be a light in the darkness. A way for us all to make something we love even better. Let's try to keep it positive.
Apologies my point was that developers are by definition users too. They may be using vim/emacs to grind code but they still browse, email, IM etc like every other desktop usser...
Peter
On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 00:05:19 +0400, Peter Lemenkov lemenkov@gmail.com wrote:
2009/6/29 Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com:
Focus on rawhide will mean the next release will see the improvements :)
That means, that the next release will be untested, as usual. So why create another useless initiative?
Because the right place in the process to do the testing is before the release. Afterwards is too late.
There are initiatives to encourage more testing, such as test days, including ones that are part of this initiative.
Going along with this are initiatives to make rawhide more usable, so that running it will be more a suitable option for more people.
Also note that for test days, there will likely be live spins available that can be used for testing that will not require people to run rawhide outside of the test.
Le Lun 29 juin 2009 22:05, Peter Lemenkov a écrit :
Please, keep in mind, that almost nodoby using Rawhide
Which is why rawhide quality needs to improve because rawhide is the next Fedora version and if it's not usable now F12 will start will mass updates and destabilization as usual.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Nicolas Mailhotnicolas.mailhot@laposte.net wrote:
Le Lun 29 juin 2009 22:05, Peter Lemenkov a écrit :
Please, keep in mind, that almost nodoby using Rawhide
Which is why rawhide quality needs to improve because rawhide is the next Fedora version and if it's not usable now F12 will start will mass updates and destabilization as usual.
-- Nicolas Mailhot
Isn't this that what the topic is all about (not specifically improving the quality of Rawhide but having a better general release after the Rawhide period)? ;-)
Ps. Did I mention that I'm a Rawhide user myself? Pps. The whole topic sounds like a good idea to me.
On 06/29/2009 03:48 PM, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
2009/6/29 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com:
Hey all,
we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora,
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish
with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop.
If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed.
These aren't typically the sort of issues you can fix in a running release. UI is one of those things we expect to remain stable through the cycle. Woe to he who removes the bugs the user has gotten used to.
--CJD
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 04:04:03PM -0400, Casey Dahlin wrote:
If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed.
These aren't typically the sort of issues you can fix in a running release. UI is one of those things we expect to remain stable through the cycle. Woe to he who removes the bugs the user has gotten used to.
I took the OP's message to mean that the general group of users, those who will give us the most bang for our buck in this regard, aren't going to be willing to run rawhide since it's going to be far less stable.
2009/6/30 Casey Dahlin cdahlin@redhat.com:
These aren't typically the sort of issues you can fix in a running release. UI is one of those things we expect to remain stable through the cycle.
Even if average user(s) feel uncomfortable? Oh, come on!
Casey Dahlin wrote:
On 06/29/2009 03:48 PM, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
2009/6/29 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com:
Hey all,
we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora,
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish
with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop.
If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed.
These aren't typically the sort of issues you can fix in a running release. UI is one of those things we expect to remain stable through the cycle. Woe to he who removes the bugs the user has gotten used to.
You could always test F11 and fix in F12, of course. Best of both worlds?
-Eric
On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 23:48 +0400, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed.
Making it easy for a wide audience to participate without requiring a rawhide installation is certainly a goal. We will have live cds available for the test days, just like you know from other Fedora test days. As soon as live cd creation works again on rawhide...
Thanks for raising this point,
Matthias
On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 23:48 +0400, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
2009/6/29 Matthias Clasen mclasen@redhat.com:
Hey all,
we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora,
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish
with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop.
If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed.
-- With best regards!
I have difficulty reconciling your last sentence, and your .sig.
In addition to rawhide live media, as Matthias mentioned, we'll be happy to take bug reports against current releases. They're of slightly less value, since they are effectively a list of things to check the next rawhide against, and may never get fixed in the stream they're reported against due to all the usual technical reasons (backport difficulty, etc), but that doesn't mean they're valueless.
- ajax
On Monday 29 June 2009 21:27:27 Matthias Clasen wrote:
Hey all,
we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora,
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish
with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. We want to identify the small (and sometimes large) roadblocks that make everyday computer use harder than it needs to be, and try to fix them.
Does this apply only to so called "Fedora desktop" = Gnome or to Fedora Desktop - as desktop environments (KDE, LXDE, XFCE4)?
If only for Gnome, can we attend this effort either? Speaking in name of KDE SIG? It looks really interesting for me - avoid small bad user experience.
Jaroslav
'Fit and Finish' is meant to be complementary to the work of the Fedora QA team. They do a great job of ensuring the quality of all the new features that land in Fedora each cycle. But when features are developed and tested on their own, the overall experience of the system as a whole can sometimes end up a bit uneven and rough. 'Fit and Finish' will focus on improving the way our users experience Fedora.
To achieve this, we will hold regular test days, each of which will focus on use cases in a certain area. A few ideas for test day topics can be found on the 'Fit and Finish' page already. If you have ideas for other areas that could benefit from this kind of attention, please let us know.
Our first test day will focus on display configuration, and will be held on Tuesday, July 7, from 12:00 to 21:00 UTC (8am -> 5pm EDT), in the fedora-fit-and-finish irc channel on FreeNode. Please come and join us there !
Matthias Clasen for the Desktop team
Am Montag, den 29.06.2009, 15:27 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen:
Hey all,
we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora,
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish
with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. We want to identify the small (and sometimes large) roadblocks that make everyday computer use harder than it needs to be, and try to fix them.
I would like my keyboard mapping to stay consistent during a release (and between releases!)
I've given up bug reporting now, I always fix it myself.
Matthias Clasen wrote:
we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora,
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish
with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. We want to identify the small (and sometimes large) roadblocks that make everyday computer use harder than it needs to be, and try to fix them.
In Ubuntu there's a "Help" button on the top menu bar that leads to a nice help application, yelp. We have that app too, but it doesn't seem to have the same contents, which are:
New to Ubuntu? Adding and Removing Software Files, Folders and Documents Customising Your Desktop Internet Music, Videos and Photos Assistive Tools Keeping Your Computer Safe Printing, Faxing and Scanning Advanced Topics
And under each section there's a clear explanation of what to do. Maybe we have something equivalent for Fedora, but I can't find it.
Andrew.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:45:19AM +0100, Andrew Haley wrote:
Matthias Clasen wrote:
we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora,
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish
with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. We want to identify the small (and sometimes large) roadblocks that make everyday computer use harder than it needs to be, and try to fix them.
In Ubuntu there's a "Help" button on the top menu bar that leads to a nice help application, yelp. We have that app too, but it doesn't seem to have the same contents, which are:
New to Ubuntu? Adding and Removing Software Files, Folders and Documents Customising Your Desktop Internet Music, Videos and Photos Assistive Tools Keeping Your Computer Safe Printing, Faxing and Scanning Advanced Topics
And under each section there's a clear explanation of what to do. Maybe we have something equivalent for Fedora, but I can't find it.
Perhaps this is something you could raise separately with the Fedora Docs team. I'm just getting back from some travel during which I caught wind of some new documentation standards being produced by the GNOME docs community to make documentation more task-based, with which I agree whole-heartedly. Also, our own Docs team is working on providing an easy way for people to retrieve and install language-specific documentation such as a user guide which would integrate into the desktop menu system. (I'm pretty sure that integration is desktop environment-neutral.) The confluence of those two developments might provide some better docs at the desktop level.
Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:45:19AM +0100, Andrew Haley wrote:
In Ubuntu there's a "Help" button on the top menu bar that leads to a nice help application, yelp. We have that app too, but it doesn't seem to have the same contents, which are:
New to Ubuntu? Adding and Removing Software Files, Folders and Documents Customising Your Desktop Internet Music, Videos and Photos Assistive Tools Keeping Your Computer Safe Printing, Faxing and Scanning Advanced Topics
And under each section there's a clear explanation of what to do. Maybe we have something equivalent for Fedora, but I can't find it.
Perhaps this is something you could raise separately with the Fedora Docs team.
OK, will do.
Andrew.
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Matthias Clasenmclasen@redhat.com wrote:
To achieve this, we will hold regular test days, each of which will focus on use cases in a certain area. A few ideas for test day topics
Overall, an excellent idea and plan. We had some very good results with an OLPC test group in Wellington NZ, which started gathering every saturday morning at a trendy cafe to test OS snapshots. They keep the practice going with both OS snapshots for the XO and Sugar-on-a-Stick (LiveUSB) images.
Using liveCDs and live USB disks is great as you can upgrade, downgrade and potentially bisect a bug quickly. It also means you can run it on many different bits of HW (assuming you've invited everyone to bring their laptops ;-) )
The event is a social thing as much as a technical thing.
Of course, it is a great environment to find and diagnose certain kinds of bugs, just like running Fedora betas on a server helps catch and debug only certain kinds of bugs. But the bugs that you are likely to find and diagnose are exactly those that affect the casual and newcomer desktop user.
We did find a few things that work well in terms of nurturing a core group of people joining regularly, and switching from the social chatter to the effective bug-hunting and filing. Let me know if you're interested in more info on this.
cheers!
martin