On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 05:42:13PM -0400, Tom Callaway wrote:

On 04/18/2011 06:42 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:

...

Thinking about this a little more, I guess that the answer might depend upon the specifics of the logo itself. So here is a list of the logos I would like to use and as best as I can find it the information about trademark restrictions for each one. Or at least the restrictions that each company is claiming.

The complete answer here is not simple, but I can give you a simple one:

• Don't do it. It would not be acceptable for Fedora. Use the word marks

instead.

Let me know if that is not sufficient and you want the more complete answer.

Well now I'm interested, more than anything else. Also using the icons in this informative way looks neat, see:

http://oirase.annexia.org/tmp/vmm-icons-in-vmlist.png http://oirase.annexia.org/tmp/vmm-with-logo.png http://oirase.annexia.org/tmp/vmm-with-logo-2.png

Not sure if you meant that using the Fedora icon would not be acceptable, or if using any icon in Fedora would not be acceptable. However not using the icons would be a worse experience for the app user.

Rich.

On 04/19/2011 06:18 PM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:

OK so I read a bit more about trademark law and it definitely seems to be a killjoy, even in this case where we are literally representing the operating systems in question.

So let me put the question a bit differently: what logos can we use?

Tux for example would seem to be fine to represent Linux guests.

The Fedora logo, surely this is a case where we can use it.

In cases such as the FreeBSD logo and others, if we (ie. virt-manager project) went through the steps to request permission[1] could we then include it?

So, this is the longer answer, which is that it might be possible to get permission from the trademark holders (either via existing license or via explicit permission) to use these logos, but each permission will have to be reviewed individually by Red Hat Legal.

If you generate a list of logos you want to use, with: * a link to the specific logo you want to sue * a link to the trademark license terms for that logo, along with a comment specifying where exactly in those terms that you feel your use case is permitted OR * a link to/copy of explicit permission from the trademark holder stating clearly that your use case for their logo is acceptable and permitted

Then, I will pass it along to Red Hat Legal and let you know what they determine.

As to Tux, it was trademarked at one point, but the only US entry I am aware of is: Serial Number 78460364

And that one was abandoned in 2005, so it is now considered DEAD. So, in that case, if you want to use Tux, just provide the link for the specific logo you want to use.

As to the Fedora mark, our existing trademark guidelines do not cover this use case, so you would still need to request permission from Red Hat Legal if you wished to include/distribute the icon with your software.

All of this will take time, so please be patient. Also, it is worthwhile to keep in mind that, for example, I suspect Microsoft is unlikely to grant permission for its logo(s) to be used in this manner, so you may get some logo permissions, but still have other areas which lack them.

~tom

== Fedora Project

On 04/20/2011 11:29 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:

Our thinking has moved on a little bit though: What we propose to do now is to grab existing icons from the guests themselves. For example if it was a Fedora guest we'd grab /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/fedora-logo-icon.png out of the guest (or better still, /etc/favicon.png[1]). Almost all guests contain their own icons as part of the base install, if you know where to look.

We no longer need to distribute any icons. Users install the guests from other sources.

However the app will still *use* the icons (again, in a purely informative, non-pejorative way), and display them in a way that will still look very similar to the screenshots I showed in the previous email.

What do you think about this plan?

I spoke to Red Hat Legal on this approach, and here are the relevant points:

1. Distribution of the icons containing the logo files is not connected to whether the use is infringement or not (which makes sense, we don't get a free pass on using a trademarked logo improperly just because we didn't distribute it). This doesn't mean that we can distribute icons containing trademarks either, just that the two items aren't connected.

2. With that said, the fact that the icon is _always_ coming from the VM, thus minimizing the chance of a VM being labeled with the wrong trademarked logo, is a good thing, and in fact, necessary.

3. Red Hat Legal explains that the rule of thumb is this: - If the wordmark (e.g. "Fedora") is sufficient to describe the item, then the logo use is not necessary, and thus, not permitted.

4. This means that the scenarios you mocked up in vmm-with-logo.png and vmm-with-logo-2.png are not acceptable, because the wordmark is already in use as a descriptor, and is a valid choice given the UI.

5. However, in vmm-icons-in-vmlist.png, using the wordmark in that UI as a descriptor would not be ideal, and Red Hat Legal agrees that use of the trademarked logos in that specific use case is acceptable (because of point #2).

6. If you want to use the trademarked logos (including the Fedora logo) in any other fashion, you still need to get Red Hat Legal to sign off on it.

7. I can find no evidence that Tux is a trademark, as mentioned earlier, so its use should be unencumbered (except for the license terms on the art).

hth,

~tom

== Fedora Project

Tom,

----- Original Message -----

• a link to the specific logo you want to sue

I'm guessing that that last word there was a typo... or perhaps it was a Freudian slip? :)

I'm going to attend your talk at LinuxFest Northwest BTW so make it good!

Regarding the Microsoft logo, hey Red Hat and Microsoft do have a low-key press release-ish agreement to support each others OSes within their own virtualization platforms... so you'd think Microsoft wouldn't mind if their logo was used by a project that Red Hat sponsors and uses for an upstream... when that logo is going to be used in one of the key components of said virtualization products... so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Richard can wrangle through the Red(mond) tape and get approval somehow.

I do appreciate your doing things carefully and making sure they are done right... even though you do expose how big of a pain everything is in real life with this licensing stuff.

Oracle's VirtualBox OSE has OS logos and they are distributing that both under a free license and without cost so unless they are footing some sort of licensing fee for those logos, which I strongly doubt, with enough effort this should be doable.

I look forward to your patch being included someday Richard.

I'll go back into the woodwork now.

TYL,