Hi, As you may or may not know, we have been working on a new GNOME application, Boxes[1] that (among other things) enables users to easily manage virtuat-machines. This also includes ability to detect operating-systems given an installation media and presenting an intuitive and impressive UI to user to easily install different operating systems with minimum or no interaction. Boxes makes use of a new library, libosinfo[2] that provides information about operating systems (which it internally keeps in an XML database).
The reason I'm writing to you is that we really want (more like need) to show logos of different operating systems to the user[3]. In attempt to avoid violating possible trademark issues, here is the approach I took in my (currently unaccepted) patches:
1. libosinfo only provides (HTTP) URLs to logos of particular OS/product but not the logo itself in any form.
2. Boxes downloads the logo at runtime when needed (when user inserts installation media of the OS in question or has installer ISO image in her/his home directory), caches it on disk and presents it to the user as shown in the screenshot[3].
So I would very much appreciate it if you can provide answers to the following questions:
1. Is Boxes (or libosinfo) in this case is violating any trademarks already (assuming only the logos shown in the screenshot)?
2. If the answer to the question#1 is 'no', is there a good chance we violate trademarks of OS products in future? If so, is that avoidable?
3. If the answer to the question#1 is 'yes', could you please advice us how to implement this essential feature without violating any trademarks?
-- Regards,
Zeeshan Ali
[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Gnome3.4 [2] https://fedorahosted.org/libosinfo/ [3] http://static.fi/~zeenix/tmp/boxes+win-fedora-ubuntu-iso-logos.png
On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Zeeshan Ali zeenix@redhat.com wrote:
The reason I'm writing to you is that we really want (more like need) to show logos of different operating systems to the user[3].
While Spot for someone from Red Hat legal can give you a more definitive answer, this sounds very much like the discussion that took place last April. See the thread at http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/legal/2011-April/001604.html for some possible insight.
-- Jared Smith
On 02/17/2012 09:14 AM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Zeeshan Ali zeenix@redhat.com wrote:
The reason I'm writing to you is that we really want (more like need) to show logos of different operating systems to the user[3].
While Spot for someone from Red Hat legal can give you a more definitive answer, this sounds very much like the discussion that took place last April. See the thread at http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/legal/2011-April/001604.html for some possible insight.
We are investigating this situation at the moment, it is similar to the April issue, however, that answer was very specific to their application and situation, so we want to review this independently to be sure we are being thorough.
Thanks,
~tom
== Fedora Project
On pe, 2012-02-17 at 10:56 -0500, Tom Callaway wrote:
On 02/17/2012 09:14 AM, Jared K. Smith wrote:
On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Zeeshan Ali zeenix@redhat.com wrote:
The reason I'm writing to you is that we really want (more like need) to show logos of different operating systems to the user[3].
While Spot for someone from Red Hat legal can give you a more definitive answer, this sounds very much like the discussion that took place last April. See the thread at http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/legal/2011-April/001604.html for some possible insight.
We are investigating this situation at the moment, it is similar to the April issue, however, that answer was very specific to their application and situation, so we want to review this independently to be sure we are being thorough.
After talking to Karen Sandler (Executive Director, GNOME Foundation) about this matter, I modified the UI to signify the trademarks involved and a disclaimer note:
http://static.fi/~zeenix/tmp/boxes-small-iso-icons+logos.png
Hopefully that helps our case. I am sorry but I forgot to mention in my original mail that we'll appreciate urgency on this matter as GNOME (and therefore Boxes) is entering feature freeze for 3.4 tomorrow evening. It is very much possible to break this freeze with explicit permission/announcement but it will be nicer/easier to do that at the beginning of the freeze rather than in the middle/end and we really want this feature in Boxes in 3.4.
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On 02/19/2012 10:06 AM, Zeeshan Ali wrote:
After talking to Karen Sandler (Executive Director, GNOME Foundation) about this matter, I modified the UI to signify the trademarks involved and a disclaimer note:
http://static.fi/~zeenix/tmp/boxes-small-iso-icons+logos.png
Hopefully that helps our case. I am sorry but I forgot to mention in my original mail that we'll appreciate urgency on this matter as GNOME (and therefore Boxes) is entering feature freeze for 3.4 tomorrow evening. It is very much possible to break this freeze with explicit permission/announcement but it will be nicer/easier to do that at the beginning of the freeze rather than in the middle/end and we really want this feature in Boxes in 3.4.
After careful consideration, Red Hat Legal has decided not to approve the use of the trademarked logos in this situation. While trademark law permits the use of another's trademark in a referential way, as you're doing here to indicate the operating system, one may only use as much of the trademark as is necessary to make the reference. Here, the word mark alone (e.g., "Fedora" or "Microsoft Windows") is sufficient to describe the operating system, so there appears to be no reason that the logo is also needed to convey any necessary information.
Just as additional information, under trademark law it wouldn't matter whether the logo file was included in the code or linked to a URL. The effect is the same, i.e., the logo is displayed, and how the page appears to the user is what matters.
With respect to the disclaimer, you should modify it to say "Any trademarks shown above are used merely for identification of software products you have already obtained and are the property of their respective owners."
Please feel free to reply if you have any questions about this.
Thanks,
~tom
P.S. IANAL, but the nice Red Hat Legal team are lawyers.
== Fedora Project
Hi Tom,
On ma, 2012-02-20 at 15:38 -0500, Tom Callaway wrote:
On 02/19/2012 10:06 AM, Zeeshan Ali wrote:
After talking to Karen Sandler (Executive Director, GNOME Foundation) about this matter, I modified the UI to signify the trademarks involved and a disclaimer note:
http://static.fi/~zeenix/tmp/boxes-small-iso-icons+logos.png
Hopefully that helps our case. I am sorry but I forgot to mention in my original mail that we'll appreciate urgency on this matter as GNOME (and therefore Boxes) is entering feature freeze for 3.4 tomorrow evening. It is very much possible to break this freeze with explicit permission/announcement but it will be nicer/easier to do that at the beginning of the freeze rather than in the middle/end and we really want this feature in Boxes in 3.4.
After careful consideration, Red Hat Legal has decided not to approve the use of the trademarked logos in this situation. While trademark law permits the use of another's trademark in a referential way, as you're doing here to indicate the operating system, one may only use as much of the trademark as is necessary to make the reference. Here, the word mark alone (e.g., "Fedora" or "Microsoft Windows") is sufficient to describe the operating system,
Pardon my complete ignorance on the subject but wouldn't that mean that almost all uses of trademarked logos on the internet by third parties (not the owner of the logo) are in violation of the trademark law? For example wikipedia (I think all encyclopedias) show both the logo and the names to make the references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_%28operating_system%29
so there appears to be no reason that the logo is also needed to convey any necessary information.
While that is true, our aim is to provide an *impressive* UI that attracts users, including ones who are using similar proprietary solutions. Hence the 3rd question in my original mail:
3. If the answer to the question#1 is 'yes', could you please advice us how to implement this essential feature without violating any trademarks?
With respect to the disclaimer, you should modify it to say "Any trademarks shown above are used merely for identification of software products you have already obtained and are the property of their respective owners."
Got it, thanks.
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On 02/20/2012 04:45 PM, Zeeshan Ali wrote:
- If the answer to the question#1 is 'yes', could you please
advice us how to implement this essential feature without violating any trademarks?
Only use the wordmarks, not the trademark logos? Sadly, it is now 5:00 PM where most of the Red Hat Legal team is, so I think it is safe to say that you are not likely to get another answer before your freeze tonight. :/
I can't really comment on your earlier statements, because we do not usually answer questions which beg the question "if everyone else is infringing, why can't i?". Please note, I'm not stating that anyone else is or is not infringing upon trademarks. All I can say is that Red Hat does not approve of the use of the trademarked logos in the situation you have proposed.
~tom
== Fedora Project
On ma, 2012-02-20 at 17:04 -0500, Tom Callaway wrote:
On 02/20/2012 04:45 PM, Zeeshan Ali wrote:
- If the answer to the question#1 is 'yes', could you please
advice us how to implement this essential feature without violating any trademarks?
Only use the wordmarks, not the trademark logos?
We are doing that already and that unfortunately doesn't make-up an impressive UI at all. We really need to use the logos so what I'm asking is that if there is *any* possibility to use them without removing the workmark?
I can't really comment on your earlier statements, because we do not usually answer questions which beg the question "if everyone else is infringing, why can't i?".
Thats not what I meant to say, sorry for not being very clear.
On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 11:09 PM, Zeeshan Ali zeenix@redhat.com wrote:
We are doing that already and that unfortunately doesn't make-up an impressive UI at all. We really need to use the logos so what I'm asking is that if there is *any* possibility to use them without removing the workmark?
Sorry for being naive here but... isn't asking permission to the trademark owner a viable path?
On ke, 2012-02-22 at 10:11 +0100, Gianluca Sforna wrote:
On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 11:09 PM, Zeeshan Ali zeenix@redhat.com wrote:
We are doing that already and that unfortunately doesn't make-up an impressive UI at all. We really need to use the logos so what I'm asking is that if there is *any* possibility to use them without removing the workmark?
Sorry for being naive here but... isn't asking permission to the trademark owner a viable path?
For Free OSs, it should be possible and thats what I'm trying to do right now. For Microsoft OSs, I still haven't managed to find the right contact. They have a "logo program" but that is about other products getting the official compatibility sticker/logo. Even if i managed to find the contact, I'm not very hopeful about them giving us permission.
One other issue you should consider is whether it's possible that your program, by bug/accident/whatever, might display the wrong trademark next to an operating system.
libguestfs takes extra care over this by pulling the icon out of the OS image itself.
Rich.
-
Gianluca Sforna -
Jared K. Smith -
Richard W.M. Jones -
Tom Callaway -
Zeeshan Ali