On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:31:23AM -0500, David Ramsey wrote:

Hello Everyone,

Greetings. :)

During some of my review of the Fedora 12 "Constantine" content as well as Fedora 13 "Goddard" content being developed, I find the following in the Fedora_12_Talking_Points.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Talking_Points

There is some entry for Fedora Electronic Lab, eh? I do not understand this for my presentation.

I think this was added post-freeze of this content.

I think the FEL is a great project and highly worthy of mention as an application of our 'spin' concept. It's very appealing to an audience that is involved in electronics engineering and other hardware oriented development and hacking.

However, it probably should be featured somewhere other than the general release talking points. That's one of the reasons we set up the new Spins sites:

http://spins.fedoraproject.org/ http://spins.fedoraproject.org/fel/

I'll revert that edit.

On Tuesday 15 December 2009 17:04:10 Mel Chua wrote:

On 12/15/2009 08:49 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:

...

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:31:23AM -0500, David Ramsey wrote:

...

There is some entry for Fedora Electronic Lab, eh? I do not understand this for my presentation.

...

I'll revert that edit.

i think the better way would be to explain what relevance FEL has, to David.

Thanks for the catch, David - and for the edit, Paul. Copying the Marketing list on this.

The Talking Points that the Marketing team produces for our release deliverables are talking points for the Desktop (GNOME) Spin.

while some the arguments for spins maybe are valid and the work on the spins pages is absolut great, i do not think that marketing has understand the relevance of fel - this is not just a spin, it is something really unique in Fedora - no other Distribution has something mature like this related to electronics. Chitlesh and the fel gang could go the easy way by just making a remix with strange licences - but they work hard with the electronics industrie to convince them to change licences to have it in fel or even become contributors. It has also Ambassador Relevance - i could hire some of the most brilliant contributors through fel, they came as normal software-, computer enthusiasts and were more than happy i introduced fel to them - so i suggest put it back - this has general relevance in some parts of the world!

cu Joerg

On Thursday 24 December 2009 14:12:21 Zoltan Hoppar wrote:

I say FEL has a worth to keep it on that list. However respins are also our Fedorians work. If the licences are mixed, that doesn't mean that isn't awesome, or hasn't worth to mention.

and as wrote before the fel guys go the hard way by maintain it within fedora to have the licences straight - not as a remix or as a derivate

thanks for the support Zoltan

On Wednesday 23 December 2009 11:06:56 Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:

I would like to hear the reasoning behind the removal of the FEL's paragraph on https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Fedora_12_Talking_Points&dif... 141842&oldid=134124

me too

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Mel Chua wrote:

Almost - there's a subtle but important difference I think we (Marketing) may have been unclear about when making and talking about our talking points, and for that I apologize.

Hello Mel,

You don't need to apologize as a "person" since this is the responsibility of almost anyone actively contributing (community and redhat).

The F12 talking points are to briefly introduce the major work done by Fedora contributors *for the F12 Desktop Spin release.* That means that talking points for other Spins should go elsewhere - the question is where.

If it is *for the F12 Desktop Spin release.* as you say : please _remove_ contents ---- # 2 For administrators * 2.1 libguestfs * 2.2 Virtualization improvements # 3 For developers * 3.1 SystemTap Eclipse integration and tracing improvements * 3.2 NetBeans 6.7.1 ---- from the wiki page https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Talking_Points . In accordance to you, they should be irrelevant for the desktop spin, hence perfectly natural for their instant removal.

This is not the Fedora Desktop 12 spin but might be for RHEL 6, I don't know. We should stress on Fedora Project here.

Chitlesh pointed out (rightfully so!) that there wasn't a place for release-specific items for each Spin.

I didn't specify "spin specific", but stressed on "contribution-specific".

That means we should create one! I'm trying to restructure the Marketing wiki pages to carve out space for this - in particular, see:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing#Release_deliverables

You'll notice that the page is still extremely messy,

Actually, I would say focus on what matters and what is being claimed. We(fedora) claim that https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Talking_Points is the talking points about F-12. We know Fedora (unlike RHEL) doesn't have a specific targeted userbase.

That above wiki page was suppose to give : * _fedora_ contributors * _fedora_ users * _non-fedora_ users a brief introduction what Fedora is providing for release N and what they can expect.

Thereby, it is fully acceptable to have one small paragraph that points to the workdone during the development cycle of F-N, by any SIG.

Please don't create other secondary pages for the same purpose, which are meant for spins/SIG.

^^ This would be considered by uninformed press as an example where RedHat is advertising its products first before community's contributions. We(fedora) don't want bad publicity, don't we ? People in the past has worked hard to convince public that Fedora is not a beta of RHEL. I thank RahulSundaram for taking the initiative at that time.

(That said, in the past during Max Spevack's reign, the Fedora Marketing was contacting News websites that reflects Fedora as "Red Hat's Fedora" to recommend them to opt for "Fedora Project" instead. This should be continued. )

Coming back to the Talking Points wiki page, what should be focussed on are "Fedora release N specific details". Unlike any of other distributions, I think Fedora contributors are intelligent and mature (another reason why I contribute to Fedora, if not I would not spend my time for nothing) , so they should be able to summarize their main contributions for Fedora N release into two/three lines and giving a link to a detailed page. RexDieter, Sebastian & Kevin(kde spin), Sebastian(of education spin), Christopher(of LXDE spin), JoergSimon (of Security Spin) are all wise men and if time permits they would be able to summarise their contribution into 2/3 lines (perfect of a centralized wiki page for F-N talking points). (Surprisingly, a lot of european contributors concentrate on spins.)

This is Fedora, an intelligent community, which strives to give an example for others to follow in terms of opensource movement. Hence it is assumed that Fedora users would be glad to hear and able to point to anyone a single location of what Fedora Project has done for them, for their children, their spouse, their friends and their colleagues. This would initiate person-to-person marketing strategy, the ground idea of the Fedora Ambassador Project. The basic definition of the existence of the wiki page : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Talking_Points

Kind regards, Chitlesh Goorah

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Community includes Red Hat folks one would hope.

Well that's debatable. But irrelevant to this thread, let's skip it.

...

If it is *for the F12 Desktop Spin release.* as you say : please _remove_ contents

I agree there is some confusion over what the intended audience for talking points is but this request seems unnecessarily aggresive.

Ah no, I'm not aggressive. I just want to stress that if my contents about FEL 12 were removed with an unjustified reason, all non-relevant contents should bear the same consequence. As it's unfair for the unpaid amount of time spent for nothing.

The talking points are derived from the feature list, plain and simple.

So why do we need a "Talking Points" wiki page if it would be an enhanced copy of the feature list ? Ideally improving the feature list would be enough in terms of long term wiki page maintenance.

Currently the feature list is technical as it is expected and the Talking points is user-convincing contents as required. The current situation is _not_ to complicate this expected situation, but simply improve the contents on the Talking points wiki page.

Chitlesh

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

FEL is a useful spin but it is very much a niche audience. Would you say its unfair to promote only one spin?

No actually, it is the task of any spin contributor to seek a proper simple and straight forward paragraph for this talking point wiki page. They are the ones who know what are the user's expectations from they features they are claiming.

It is not unfair to promote only one spin ifother spin contributor of a spin team didn't get respectively contents on the wiki page. I did it for FEL. I find it unfair that the Fedora Project leader removed it.

Also I find the reasons of Mel and yours not compatible for a justification of such removal. Here I'm talking about the removal of this FEL paragraph content, but I would _not_ hope the same case for any other spin.

I understand your point but IMO, you should use your spin page to promote the spin. That's really the best place for spin specific content.

You are confusing : spin specific content and spin F-12 specific content.

spin specific content = global information about the spin spin F-12 specific content = workdone concerning the spin _during_ the development cycle of F-12

...

So why do we need a "Talking Points" wiki page if it would be an enhanced copy of the feature list ?

Feature list pages are useful for coordination of the development itself. Talking points is more end user focussed. That's a important difference.

Isn't it what I said (which you cut)?

Chitlesh

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@redhat.com wrote:

Not really. I don't think talking points are the place for either. If it was a entirely new spin that hasn't been there before, it would be useful to consider.  For existing spins like FEL, use the dedicated pages like http://spins.fedoraproject.org/fel.

The url of the talking point wiki page currently being discussed is : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Talking_Points

That is: F-12 related. Please tell me how isn't it a place for either ? If it isn't as you said, I wonder what is the use of this wiki page then if it's not talking about anything ?

I would like talking points to cover more of the generic content that is appealing to a broader audience.

So you are assuming that if there are less users interested, why not drop marketing support for an active team which is doing its one marketing and trying to get maximum exposure for building a community around it?

Chitlesh

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 2:14 AM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@redhat.com wrote:

The goal is to balance the content to the level that press and end users won't be overwhelmed by a long list of features. It is for new features in Fedora 12 that appeals to a *broad* audience.  FEL changes don't fit into that.

Tell me how the following appeals to a *broad* audience as you said # 2 For administrators * 2.1 libguestfs * 2.2 Virtualization improvements # 3 For developers * 3.1 SystemTap Eclipse integration and tracing improvements * 3.2 NetBeans 6.7.1

compared to this : ------ Fedora's high-end hardware design and simulation platform, [http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/FEL/ Fedora Electronic Lab] was reinforced with PLA tools for digital design flow, a Peer Review Web-based solution for small businesses, simulators for 8081 and 8085 microcontrollers, development tools for Openmoko development and power charged Eclipse 3.5 with plugins for HDL/IP development. Read [http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/papers/FEL12ReleaseNotes.pdf Release Notes] and [http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/papers/fel-flyer-f12.pdf Flyer] for complementary information.

{{admon/tip|FEL-12 mini tour|Get to know FEL-12's [https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraElectronicLab/TalkingPoints talking points] in 3 minutes. }} -----

It's perfectly clear that if this content gets stripped so should #2 For administrators and # 3 For developers.

Originally, David was looking for F-12 contents for his presentation but didn't know what/how to put in his presentation. This is exactly what people are expecting from the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Talking_Points. Having a separate page elsewhere defeats the purpose of https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Talking_Points. That FEL paragraph was also meant for marketing purposes.

Till now, none of your reasons explains the removal objectively.

Chitlesh

On 24/12/09 08:21, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

On 12/24/2009 12:07 PM, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:

...

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 2:14 AM, Rahul Sundaramsundaram@redhat.com wrote:

...

The goal is to balance the content to the level that press and end users won't be overwhelmed by a long list of features. It is for new features in Fedora 12 that appeals to a *broad* audience. FEL changes don't fit into that.

Tell me how the following appeals to a *broad* audience as you said # 2 For administrators * 2.1 libguestfs * 2.2 Virtualization improvements # 3 For developers * 3.1 SystemTap Eclipse integration and tracing improvements * 3.2 NetBeans 6.7.1

It is easy to see that Virtualization and Developer tools have far more users than in the Fedora space compare to electronics but I don't think you are ever going to agree to a alternative viewpoint from yours and at this point, we can agree to disagree. Good luck.

Rahul

-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list

Dear All, first of all I would like to say, that I do no think that this discussion belongs onto the ambassadors list.

Secondly, maybe somebody should make clear, as to what is meant to be on that marketing list. As I myself could not exactly gather what that page is for.

Thirdly, I do not see anything wrong with FEL being on that list, as anything that makes Fedora more desirable is, as far as I am concerned , useful and very welcome.

Fourth point to make is, that Chitlesh is very passionate about the FEL spin (we had the pleasure to meet at FUDcon Berlin), it seems popular and his contribution is very welcome.

And last not least, are we forgetting the goals here ? Talking points, is not the documentation for the Fedora ISO media, if FEL were mentioned there, I could understand objections, however, I would not see a problem in seeing a docs item just on FEL, if people are willing to work on it. If spins were commercially sold, I would object to them being anywhere near the sites, however I do not know of one and FEL most certainly is not sold either! Talking points is for our users!

So I have a few suggestions to make: a. Clarify what should be on that site b. Think of the real goals here please, i.e. End Users They want to know everything new, which makes it a talking point, which in turn bigs up Fedora as a whole. So throwing a hissy fit on what should or should not be a talking point, is just silly. Think of the real goal here! THE USER! c. Chitlesh, I suggest if you are not happy with this back and forth, that you either take the issue to a marketing meeting, or whoever started that page (for a moment there I almost wrote "controls", but we are a community so we all control it). If that does not satisfy you Id take the issue to Paul and maybe he can arbitrate, or even the board can make a final decision on this matter.

Now, you all have a good few days over Christmas, regardless of your cultural background (time off), and try and sort it out via arbitration means. And keep smiling please, while keeping the end-user in site.

Regards, Tristan

Hello Everyone,

Greetings. :)

=================================================

I like this "Fedora 12 one page release notes" -

A very professional looking page. :)

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_one_page_release_notes

=================================================

I like the Fedora 12 'Constantine' "F12 release slogan" -

Unite. :)

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F12_release_slogan

=================================================

I have made an update for Fedora 13 "Goddard" -

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing#Release_deliverables

for the "F13 release slogan" -

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F13_release_slogan

=================================================

Please have a great day! :~)

Thank You Sincerely =-=-=-=-= - David - =-=-=-=-= David Ramsey --------------------------------- 一石二鳥 いっせきにちょう One stone; two birds. To kill 2 birds with 1 stone. --------------------------------- = Fedora Project's Japan & Maryland Ambassador dramsey@fedoraproject.org http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Dramsey * Three dual core systems with 3.0 GB running the Fedora 12 (Constantine) kernel - vmlinuz-2.6.31.9-174.fc12.i686.PAE * One dual core system with 3.0 GB running the Fedora 13 kernel - 2.6.32.2-15.fc13.i686.PAE With eight (8) x86_64 computing cores, 16 GB of RAM and two SATA Seagate 7200.12 500 GB harddisks. =

On 12/29/2009 10:59 AM, W.H. Kalpa Pathum wrote:

2009/12/29 David Ramsey diamond_ramsey@hotmail.com:

...

Hello Everyone,

Greetings. :)

=================================================

I like this "Fedora 12 one page release notes" -

A very professional looking page. :)

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_one_page_release_notes

this is great

...

=================================================

I like the Fedora 12 'Constantine' "F12 release slogan" -

Unite. :)

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F12_release_slogan

=================================================

I have made an update for Fedora 13 "Goddard" -

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing#Release_deliverables

for the "F13 release slogan" -

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F13_release_slogan

=================================================

Please have a great day! :~)

Thank You Sincerely =-=-=-=-=

• David -

=-=-=-=-= David Ramsey

---

一石二鳥 いっせきにちょう One stone; two birds. To kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

---

= Fedora Project's Japan & Maryland Ambassador dramsey@fedoraproject.org http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Dramsey

• Three dual core systems with 3.0 GB running the Fedora 12 (Constantine) kernel - vmlinuz-2.6.31.9-174.fc12.i686.PAE
• One dual core system with 3.0 GB running the Fedora 13 kernel - 2.6.32.2-15.fc13.i686.PAE

With eight (8) x86_64 computing cores, 16 GB of RAM and two SATA Seagate 7200.12 500 GB harddisks. =

-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list

Its perfect .... well done

On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 01:30:49AM +0100, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@redhat.com wrote:

...

On 12/24/2009 12:07 PM, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:

...

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 2:14 AM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@redhat.com wrote:

...

The goal is to balance the content to the level that press and end users won't be overwhelmed by a long list of features. It is for new features in Fedora 12 that appeals to a *broad* audience. FEL changes don't fit into that.

Tell me how the following appeals to a *broad* audience as you said # 2 For administrators * 2.1 libguestfs * 2.2 Virtualization improvements # 3 For developers * 3.1 SystemTap Eclipse integration and tracing improvements * 3.2 NetBeans 6.7.1

It is easy to see that Virtualization and Developer tools have far more users than in the Fedora space compare to electronics but I don't think you are ever going to agree to a alternative viewpoint from yours and at this point, we can agree to disagree. Good luck.

Why the user count matters for the "F12 talking points" wiki page ? It could be for "Fedora Talking Points" wiki page.

Mel points to "Fedora Desktop Spin".

Rahul points to "User count specific talking points".

Both are outside the scope of "Fedora 12 Talking points" wiki page.

Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier, Chitlesh, as I'm just getting back from vacation. There were two main reasons for removing this paragraph, and neither was intended to mean that the FEL was somehow unimportant to Fedora, because it's not. Among other things, FEL is a great example of how Fedora's remixability can make a software product that's appropriate for a focused group of users. (More on that below.)

The first reason was that the talking points are essentially a distillation of technical innovations that are part of the feature process. Those innovations appear in the Feature List. Some of those innovations are obviously desktop related. But many come from other areas that are important to large groups of users like system administrators and developers.

Certainly we can't even come close to including everything that happens in the Fedora distribution in the talking points. We have to pick a number of features that are (a) appealing to a large class of end-users, (b) often created from scratch by Fedora contributors, perhaps directly upstream, and (c) can be easily explained in simple terms to the lay press, by everyone from the FPL (me) to any Ambassador who's talking about Fedora in front of a group.

For maximum press impact, we need a short list, consistent from interview to interview, and somewhat differentiating where possible. That way, our talking points can be put in proper context by a journalist who is likely very busy and may not understand the many facets of the Fedora Project as intimately as we do. People like Joe Brockmeier (of openSUSE fame) has spoken eloquently on this subject, as a current community manager and himself an experienced journalist and writer. The easier we make a journalist's job, the more effective our coverage gets; the more esoteric the information we provide, the harder we make their job, and thus the less effective our press coverage becomes.

Now in the past, we *have* noted the emergence of new and exciting spins during a release, as we did for FEL when it was created, for the early inclusion of KDE 4 in the KDE spin, and for the applicance OS spin when it debuted. I also noted a coming-soon Moblin spin during the Fedora 12 release during a couple interviews. We'll continue to do that in the foreseeable future.

While not every spin creation automatically becomes a talking point, it makes a good example of the *global* talking point of Fedora's remixability and redistributability. Those Fedora features are definitely of interest to people who want to seek out a different direction from the default distribution. Specific spins might not be able to fit easily into the framework I describe above, but we can and should continue to promote the remixability of Fedora globally in every release. After all, that aspect of the Fedora distribution is a direct result of the foundation of Freedom which the project embraces.

And as was pointed out here, spins should avail themselves of the new content areas on spins.fedoraproject.org to point out improvements and changes. The site was designed specifically to make it possible for spin owners/SIGs to change content whenever necessary, such as for a new release. The Marketing team can make a point of promoting that central site for people who are looking for something outside the default spin (see below).

The second reason was that the talking points were set during a series of Marketing meetings and email threads on that list in August (and possibly September?). They were left open for some time to accommodate additions and then were eventually closed, so we would have time to use the Talking Points to generate the variety of other media that the Marketing team produces such as the one page release notes, information for the press, and so on. I removed other material that was placed on the page late as well for this reason.

Hopefully this helps clear up some confusion on the talking points. In the future, I think we could avoid some confusion by better publicizing the process of building the talking points, and by putting an admonition on the talking points page once it's finalized and inviting questions on the fedora-marketing-list where we can resolve them. As I mentioned above, we should also think about adding an "every release" bullet in the one-page release notes for each release, noting that the spins.fp.o site makes other spins available. I welcome suggestions for how we can continue to keep the talking points tightly focused and ensure that spin owners are also able to build energy around the work they do in the Fedora Project.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 6:31 AM, David Ramsey < > wrote:

There is some entry for Fedora Electronic Lab, eh?  I do not understand this for my presentation.

I am very confused about what Fedora Electronic Lab has to do with the Fedora 12 Talking Points.  I did not see anything about this in Fedora 12 Features.  Does someone have any idea about this?

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Talking_Points#Fedora_Electronic_La...

....

Get to know FEL-12's talking points in 3 minutes.

....

Hello there,

Actually, in this FEL paragraph, there was a link to

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraElectronicLab/TalkingPoints

It will give you quick information what is fedora electronic lab: * release notes * flyer.

There is everything you need to introduce FEL's in one or two slides in your presentation.

The reason why its features were not among F-12 feature list is that all the tools have undergone improvements for interoperability and electronic design specific features. These features are too technical (mathematical formulas..., power estimation, physical library characterisation,..) and meaningless for someone who does not know microelectronics. Hence we have the 26 pages release notes http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/papers/FEL12ReleaseNotes.pdf

That said it is impossible to strip it down to one-page as we provide numerous design flows rather than point software.

If you have any other question about FEL, we have a mailing list. Please feel free to ask us questions. We will be happy to answer them.

We have some presentations on http://spins.fedoraproject.org/fel/#publications

website: http://spins.fedoraproject.org/fel/

cheers, Chitlesh