Hello
I have some good news for everyone who is envolved on Fedora:
"According to the site DistroWatch, Ubuntu, in the last 3 months, was the second most widely used Linux system for the fourth position, having been excluded from the three distributions used worldwide.
The table shows that the Mint continues to lead, but the Fedora moves to second position (previously in the third) and openSUSE to third (formerly fourth).
According to experts, this decline may be explained by the introduction of the Unity interface in Ubuntu for users new to Linux, is more complicated than the GNOME version 3, still used in other distributions from the top of the table."
We need to continue working on Fedora for continue because we are so close to the first place. People know that Fedora have what they need as ambassadors and we must pass on those.
Nuno Rodrigues
Thanks for the info!
2011/11/27 Nuno Rodrigues Rodrigues nunor5@hotmail.com
Hello
I have some good news for everyone who is envolved on Fedora:
"According to the site DistroWatch, Ubuntu, in the last 3 months, was the second most widely used Linux system for the fourth position, having been excluded from the three distributions used worldwide.
The table shows that the Mint continues to lead, *but the Fedora moves to second position (previously in the third)* and openSUSE to third (formerly fourth).
According to experts, this decline may be explained by the introduction of the Unity interface in Ubuntu for users new to Linux, is more complicated than the *GNOME version 3*, still used in other distributions from the top of the table."
We need to continue working on Fedora for continue because we are so close to the first place. People know that Fedora have what they need as ambassadors and we must pass on those.
Nuno Rodrigues
-- ambassadors mailing list ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
But in the site distrowatch.com for the Last 3 months Fedora have the fourth position ?!
----- Mail original -----
| Thanks for the info!
| 2011/11/27 Nuno Rodrigues Rodrigues < nunor5@hotmail.com >
| | Hello |
| | I have some good news for everyone who is envolved on Fedora: |
| | "According to the site DistroWatch, Ubuntu, in the last 3 months, | | was | | the second most widely used Linux system for the fourth position, | | having been excluded from the three distributions used worldwide. |
| | The table shows that the Mint continues to lead, but the Fedora | | moves | | to second position (previously in the third) and openSUSE to third | | (formerly fourth). |
| | According to experts, this decline may be explained by the | | introduction of the Unity interface in Ubuntu for users new to | | Linux, is more complicated than the GNOME version 3 , still used in | | other distributions from the top of the table." |
| | We need to continue working on Fedora for continue because we are | | so | | close to the first place. People know that Fedora have what they | | need as ambassadors and we must pass on those. |
| | Nuno Rodrigues | | | -- | | | ambassadors mailing list | | | ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org | | | https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors |
| -- | ambassadors mailing list | ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org | https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 11:37 -0100, Nuno Rodrigues Rodrigues wrote:
According to experts, this decline may be explained by the introduction of the Unity interface in Ubuntu for users new to Linux, is more complicated than the GNOME version 3, still used in other distributions from the top of the table."
Distrowatch always shows high ranking when new distro is released. Just wait for the next Ubuntu release.. Unfortunately.
And according my personal knowledge (by all the friends and other Fedora users who I know or where I have been installing Fedora) Gnome 3 is lacking a lot and I have installed mostly the XFCE spin. This is due the Gnome 3.x's really poor user interface, it's modifiability and highly unergonomic window management. Good (or maybe bad) news is that all the Ubuntu users who I know are totally annoyed about Unity also and they want their old style Gnome 2.x back!
Roughly I would say, I've been installing, less than 20% Gnome and more than 80% XFCE. All of them because people want their old style Gnome back and XFCE is the easiest way to get the same feeling.
I seriously would think if Gnome right way to proceed for Fedora? At least I say NO -it is not! We should think about something else to be a default desktop. Personally I also switched into the XFCE spin from F14 after I had skipped F15 entirely!
I am really sad, because this is not Fedoras fault. I _love_ Fedora but I do hate Gnome 3 which is going 10 years back on usability for me. Just being nice looking is not enough.
-- Jukka
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 14:01 +0100, Jukka Palander wrote:
[...] And according my personal knowledge (by all the friends and other Fedora users who I know or where I have been installing Fedora) Gnome 3 is lacking a lot and I have installed mostly the XFCE spin. This is due the Gnome 3.x's really poor user interface, it's modifiability and highly unergonomic window management. Good (or maybe bad) news is that all the Ubuntu users who I know are totally annoyed about Unity also and they want their old style Gnome 2.x back!
I had the same experience. Existing Linux users seem to avoid Gnome 3 and Unity, moving to XFCE or trying other distributions looking for Gnome 2 (this is less frequent though).
Truth is I don't know any "new user", so I can't say if Gnome 3 is working well for them, but the non-techy users I know are certainly the ones that express the most strong rejection of the new desktops.
[...] I am really sad, because this is not Fedoras fault. I _love_ Fedora but I do hate Gnome 3 which is going 10 years back on usability for me. Just being nice looking is not enough.
I'm trying hard to adapt my workflow to Gnome 3, but as you say I'm using the desktop in the same way I was using a window manager back in 2003 (with WindowMaker): using keyboard shortcuts.
Regards,
Juanjo
Is this really a topic for Ambassadors list? This should be pursued at the source i.e. Gnome-designers and fedora desktop group. Personally, I find your position too relative (as in, pertaining to personal preferences rather than absolute (based on result of tested scenarios) ... And those scenarios being hypothetical and subjected to testing during development stage). Which experts do you refer to?
I find Gnome3 easier to use and I have been using Gnome2 from F11. I don't think its perfect but I appreciate the direction and would rather suggest ways of improving what is ... As long as its in the direction of the future. Change is around us. We either adapt or die ... If the Linux community is concerned about decline in usage in favour of other Linux solutions then I'm left in wonder - because that is not really a loss. And what does it profit if the circle is comprised of a clique of old GUI purists and new people are brewing outside the fence?
Finally, this kind of thread has the potential to go sour and noisy. This is simply not the forum for it.
--------------------------------------------- from twohot@device.mobile :)
-----Original Message----- From: Jukka Palander jukka@devspain.com Sender: ambassadors-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 14:01:55 To: ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org Reply-To: ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: [Ambassadors] Fedora is the 2º most used Linux s ystem
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 11:37 -0100, Nuno Rodrigues Rodrigues wrote:
According to experts, this decline may be explained by the introduction of the Unity interface in Ubuntu for users new to Linux, is more complicated than the GNOME version 3, still used in other distributions from the top of the table."
Distrowatch always shows high ranking when new distro is released. Just wait for the next Ubuntu release.. Unfortunately.
And according my personal knowledge (by all the friends and other Fedora users who I know or where I have been installing Fedora) Gnome 3 is lacking a lot and I have installed mostly the XFCE spin. This is due the Gnome 3.x's really poor user interface, it's modifiability and highly unergonomic window management. Good (or maybe bad) news is that all the Ubuntu users who I know are totally annoyed about Unity also and they want their old style Gnome 2.x back!
Roughly I would say, I've been installing, less than 20% Gnome and more than 80% XFCE. All of them because people want their old style Gnome back and XFCE is the easiest way to get the same feeling.
I seriously would think if Gnome right way to proceed for Fedora? At least I say NO -it is not! We should think about something else to be a default desktop. Personally I also switched into the XFCE spin from F14 after I had skipped F15 entirely!
I am really sad, because this is not Fedoras fault. I _love_ Fedora but I do hate Gnome 3 which is going 10 years back on usability for me. Just being nice looking is not enough.
-- Jukka
-- ambassadors mailing list ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 13:30 +0000, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
Is this really a topic for Ambassadors list? This should be pursued at the source i.e. Gnome-designers and fedora desktop group. Personally, I find your position too relative (as in, pertaining to personal preferences rather than absolute (based on result of tested scenarios) ... And those scenarios being hypothetical and subjected to testing during development stage). Which experts do you refer to?
This is indeed a place to discuss about it!
Ambassadors list (in my opinion) is especially a forum to discuss about _anything_ what we hear and see in the Fedora users field.
This is _not_ a forum to discuss about how something should be improved (development boards are in place), but we have to remember that we ambassadors are the first people in touch with the users. Therefore our eyes and ears are very valuable asset for development (and I really hope some of the developers reads this list).
This is the reason that I think we should say it out loud what people think about Fedora and what they have decided to do no matter if it is one or two users or a larger scale survey. -and no matter if it is something we do not want to hear.
I find Gnome3 easier to use and I have been using Gnome2 from F11. I don't think its perfect but I appreciate the direction and would rather suggest ways of improving what is ... As long as its in the direction of the future. Change is around us. We either adapt or die ... If the Linux community is concerned about decline in usage in favour of other Linux solutions then I'm left in wonder - because that is not really a loss. And what does it profit if the circle is comprised of a clique of old GUI purists and new people are brewing outside the fence?
Going towards new is good, but we should go in there by listening our users what they want. Being arrogant is not the way.
Finally, this kind of thread has the potential to go sour and noisy. This is simply not the forum for it.
Being sour and noisy at least leads us into the discussion (which usually leads into new ideas). Being silent won't lead us into anything else than backwards.
-- Jukka
from twohot@device.mobile :)
-----Original Message----- From: Jukka Palander jukka@devspain.com Sender: ambassadors-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 14:01:55 To: ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org Reply-To: ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: [Ambassadors] Fedora is the 2º most used Linux s ystem
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 11:37 -0100, Nuno Rodrigues Rodrigues wrote:
According to experts, this decline may be explained by the introduction of the Unity interface in Ubuntu for users new to Linux, is more complicated than the GNOME version 3, still used in other distributions from the top of the table."
Distrowatch always shows high ranking when new distro is released. Just wait for the next Ubuntu release.. Unfortunately.
And according my personal knowledge (by all the friends and other Fedora users who I know or where I have been installing Fedora) Gnome 3 is lacking a lot and I have installed mostly the XFCE spin. This is due the Gnome 3.x's really poor user interface, it's modifiability and highly unergonomic window management. Good (or maybe bad) news is that all the Ubuntu users who I know are totally annoyed about Unity also and they want their old style Gnome 2.x back!
Roughly I would say, I've been installing, less than 20% Gnome and more than 80% XFCE. All of them because people want their old style Gnome back and XFCE is the easiest way to get the same feeling.
I seriously would think if Gnome right way to proceed for Fedora? At least I say NO -it is not! We should think about something else to be a default desktop. Personally I also switched into the XFCE spin from F14 after I had skipped F15 entirely!
I am really sad, because this is not Fedoras fault. I _love_ Fedora but I do hate Gnome 3 which is going 10 years back on usability for me. Just being nice looking is not enough.
-- Jukka
-- ambassadors mailing list ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors -- ambassadors mailing list ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 08:26 +0100, Jukka Palander wrote:
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 13:30 +0000, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
Is this really a topic for Ambassadors list? This should be pursued at the source i.e. Gnome-designers and fedora desktop group. Personally, I find your position too relative (as in, pertaining to personal preferences rather than absolute (based on result of tested scenarios) ... And those scenarios being hypothetical and subjected to testing during development stage). Which experts do you refer to?
This is indeed a place to discuss about it!
Ambassadors list (in my opinion) is especially a forum to discuss about _anything_ what we hear and see in the Fedora users field.
This is _not_ a forum to discuss about how something should be improved (development boards are in place), but we have to remember that we ambassadors are the first people in touch with the users. Therefore our eyes and ears are very valuable asset for development (and I really hope some of the developers reads this list).
I don't think they should (unless they are also ambassadors of course).
Your ears only have value if you translate the message (in dev speak) and forward it to Bugzilla, or similar developers fora.
This is the reason that I think we should say it out loud what people think about Fedora and what they have decided to do no matter if it is one or two users or a larger scale survey.
Really?
Imagine: 541 ambassadors right now. If each one of us sends a message every time we hear something, anything, about Fedora, this list will be overwhelmed by noise, and will become useless.
You are in contact with users, but your role is to be an interface. It is not to say "some guy told me that they don't like $desktop". That's a useless information, no one can act on it to fix a problem and improve the situation.
Instead, when someone says they hate $desktop, try to get some specifics. Ask them why. Try to see if there's not simply something they didn't understand which would make their hatred go away, or try to obtain some specific issues. And if you get something that someone can act on, invite them to report a bug (or do it yourself if they don't want and you are confident to follow up with the developers on an issue you haven't encountered yourself).
I find Gnome3 easier to use and I have been using Gnome2 from F11. I don't think its perfect but I appreciate the direction and would rather suggest ways of improving what is ... As long as its in the direction of the future. Change is around us. We either adapt or die ... If the Linux community is concerned about decline in usage in favour of other Linux solutions then I'm left in wonder - because that is not really a loss. And what does it profit if the circle is comprised of a clique of old GUI purists and new people are brewing outside the fence?
Going towards new is good, but we should go in there by listening our users what they want. Being arrogant is not the way.
I don't think Onyeibo was being arrogant.
And I also don't think we should always listen to what our users want.
To throw in once more that overused Henry Ford quote: If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have said "a faster horse"
Software is built following a vision of what people need, even if that isn't always exactly what they think they need.
Sometimes it is completely opposite of what they really need. But that's okay. It's Free Software, no one is forcing anyone to use anything, and there are lots of viable alternatives to suit everyone.
Saying the above is not being arrogant, it's being pragmatic. There are only so many hours in one's day, and no matter what you do, you will never please everybody.
Finally, this kind of thread has the potential to go sour and noisy. This is simply not the forum for it.
Being sour and noisy at least leads us into the discussion (which usually leads into new ideas). Being silent won't lead us into anything else than backwards.
If you honestly think that "sour and noisy" can bring in "new ideas" leading towards improving the status quo, then you haven't spent enough time on devel@fp.o :)
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 16:20 +0800, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
Going towards new is good, but we should go in there by listening our users what they want. Being arrogant is not the way.
I don't think Onyeibo was being arrogant.
I did not mean Onyeibo. I meant the Gnome developers!
There is loads of examples in the web explaining what features Gnome 3 is lacking and what are annoying new and what should be improved. Anyhow _none_ of them was taken into account when moving from 3.0 into 3.2. This is being arrogant by the developers and points very well out that they do not (want to?) listen their users. Its all what "they" think.
And I also don't think we should always listen to what our users want.
HUH! Now I seriously must think if I want to be part of Fedora ambassadors team! This is really scary if we do not listen what people think and want to say! By ignorance there is only one way -> DOWN!
-- Jukka
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 09:59 +0100, Jukka Palander wrote:
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 16:20 +0800, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
Going towards new is good, but we should go in there by listening our users what they want. Being arrogant is not the way.
I don't think Onyeibo was being arrogant.
I did not mean Onyeibo. I meant the Gnome developers!
There is loads of examples in the web explaining what features Gnome 3 is lacking and what are annoying new and what should be improved. Anyhow _none_ of them was taken into account when moving from 3.0 into 3.2.
Wrong.
For example, one feature of Gnome 3.2 was called "Fix minor annoyances". This was exactly about taking into account users' feedback.
Another example is the redesign of the user menu for Gnome 3.4, which might reintroduce the poweroff button in some cases.
Gnome developers and designers do listen to feedback. But you have to understand that "listening to someone" does not always mean the same as "doing what that someone wants".
This is being arrogant by the developers and points very well out that they do not (want to?) listen their users. Its all what "they" think.
Well, you know the drill. They are doing something that they believe in. They provide it for free in the hopes that it will be useful. If it's not, no one is forcing you to use their work.
And I also don't think we should always listen to what our users want.
HUH! Now I seriously must think if I want to be part of Fedora ambassadors team! This is really scary if we do not listen what people think and want to say! By ignorance there is only one way -> DOWN!
Read again: "I don't think we should always..."
In other words, I think we should sometimes listen, but not blindly do what users ask for. Please read again my email. All of it, not only the two sentences you chose to quote.
And on an unrelated note: you should always consider whether you want to go on being part of a group. People change, groups change, you change. Wondering whether your values still align to those of a group you joined some time ago is healthy.
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 17:24 +0800, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
Wrong.
For example, one feature of Gnome 3.2 was called "Fix minor annoyances". This was exactly about taking into account users' feedback.
So what they have fixed?
Give me one example. I cannot see anything of those not minor but rather major!
Another example is the redesign of the user menu for Gnome 3.4, which might reintroduce the poweroff button in some cases.
Might ;-) OK, +1 for the GNOME team.
Now it is a gnome-shell-extension which does not work _at all_ and keeps crashing the whole thing. Many of the other extension should also be _part of the GNOME core_
Sometimes, when developing new, one should think and think hard. Is this idea good at all. Should it be taken back into the drawing board and start again.. I think GNOME 3 is such a product. It should be started entirely again. It should be started again from users perspective and especially from ergonomic perspective. With current GNOME 3 you have much more mouse clicks than previous one and it is just one major lacks in there.
I give you an example: One needs to open 2 windows (applications) maximized and switch between them with a mouse (not with a keyboard because mouse is the one what "normal people" will use).
1) "old" GNOME
1.1) Start you application by clicking the "application menu", hoover and open application. -move once into the left top and select application from menu and click to open -2 mouse clicks and 1 major movement with mouse on a screen
1.2) Switch between applications -move your mouse to the bottom and click another application active to be on top -1 mouse click and 1 major mouse movement on screen
2) "new" GNOME
2.1) Start you application by clicking the "activities" and then click applications and then search what you are looking fore and open application -move once into the left top, press click and select applications and press click and then search application and click to open -2/3 mouse click and 2-3 major movements with mouse on a screen even with the scroll bar
2.2) Switch between applications -move your mouse to the upper left on activities, press click, move mouse into the window you want to open and press click -1/2 mouse click and 2 major mouse movement on screen
I could give an another example with multiple desktops etc. Just try them by yourselves. Its all non-ergonomic and non-configurable. Why have the top-bar in there at all if you cannot do/put anything in it! Just hot corner is enough then.
Well then. This was not the topic of the thread at all and therefore we should open another GNOME-topic if someone sees it is necessary (maybe some other mailing list also). I have said what I need(ed) to say and GNOME development will go on its own routes - I will continue with XFCE for a while. It is goodbye GNOME for now.
Still, I am not dropping from ambassadors group so easily -at least not yet. I like Fedora and I do want to spread it out there. Only that I (and many others) do not like is GNOME (anymore). Maybe few future releases will do? I did liked GNOME 2.x though.
-- Jukka
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 15:03 +0100, Jukka Palander wrote:
Another example is the redesign of the user menu for Gnome 3.4, which might reintroduce the poweroff button in some cases.
Might ;-) OK, +1 for the GNOME team.
Now it is a gnome-shell-extension which does not work _at all_ and keeps crashing the whole thing. Many of the other extension should also be _part of the GNOME core_
That's your opinion.
I use absolutely no extension and don't feel the need for any of them. But that's my opinion.
Sometimes, when developing new, one should think and think hard.
Are you implying that the GNOME developers didn't think?
I'm sure they love to read that the 2 years they spent on defining what GNOME 3 would be, followed by more than a year of iterating on it, were not enough in your opinion.
GNOME 3 is not an accident. It's not a weird dream that an inebriated designer barely remembered when he woke up. It is a carefully thought user experience. (which of course is not finished just yet ;)
Well then. This was not the topic of the thread at all and therefore we should open another GNOME-topic if someone sees it is necessary (maybe some other mailing list also).
You realize that this is what almost everyone has been asking you from the start? To take any useful feedback to where it can actually be useful?
It's not that « we don't want to hear the ugly truth ». It's that if the truth is ugly, then it must be taken where it is possible to do something about it.
You don't fix bugs or create new designs on ambassadors@, it's just not the right place.
Still, I am not dropping from ambassadors group so easily -at least not yet. I like Fedora and I do want to spread it out there. Only that I (and many others) do not like is GNOME (anymore).
Glad you realized that there's more to Fedora than it's current default desktop. :)
On 11/28/2011 03:03 PM, Jukka Palander wrote:
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 17:24 +0800, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
For example, one feature of Gnome 3.2 was called "Fix minor annoyances". This was exactly about taking into account users' feedback.
So what they have fixed?
Give me one example. I cannot see anything of those not minor but rather major!
"GNOME is released every six months. Since the last version, 3.0, approximately 1270 people made about 38500 changes to GNOME."
If you read
http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.2/
you will see different sections describing the different types of changes. Whether they are "major" or "minor" of course depends on your personal classification.
With current GNOME 3 you have much more mouse clicks than previous one and it is just one major lacks in there.
I doubt that.
I give you an example: One needs to open 2 windows (applications) maximized and switch between them with a mouse (not with a keyboard because mouse is the one what "normal people" will use).
Well, now you set the rules. Do you write your emails just with your mouse? Very likely not. The GNOME user interface designers thought about how to improve the overall usability by combining the usual user input devices.
I completely agree. GNOME3 is different. However, if you really *want* to give it a try, you should try to use in the way it was designed for. Why do some people love iPad and iPhones? Just because of their nice look? Certainly not. They also provide some interesting user interface ideas. Can you use them in the way you were used to use your 10 year old Sony Ericsson brick? Certainly not.
- "old" GNOME
1.1) Start you application by clicking the "application menu", hoover and open application. -move once into the left top and select application from menu and click to open -2 mouse clicks and 1 major movement with mouse on a screen
1.2) Switch between applications -move your mouse to the bottom and click another application active to be on top -1 mouse click and 1 major mouse movement on screen
- "new" GNOME
2.1) Start you application by clicking the "activities" and then click applications and then search what you are looking fore and open application -move once into the left top, press click and select applications and press click and then search application and click to open -2/3 mouse click and 2-3 major movements with mouse on a screen even with the scroll bar
I hit the Windows key on my keyboard and enter the beginning of my application name. In 90% of the cases it offers me the one I want to start so I just have to hit Enter. Done. I always hated structered Application multi-level directories where you have to click and click and click until you finally find out that the application you are looking for is in a different sub-menu.
2.2) Switch between applications -move your mouse to the upper left on activities, press click, move mouse into the window you want to open and press click -1/2 mouse click and 2 major mouse movement on screen
Alt-Tab and Alt-^. Works very fast for me. And I am using it on almost all of my desktops (including Windows) for more than 15 years now.
In addition I have installed the Avant Window Navigator which gives me a list of all my opened applications, too. And it looks stylish ;)
I could give an another example with multiple desktops etc. Just try them by yourselves. Its all non-ergonomic and non-configurable. Why have the top-bar in there at all if you cannot do/put anything in it! Just hot corner is enough then.
Hmm. I used multiple desktops for quite some time, agreed. I liked it. Do I really need it? No. Do I miss it. No. Does GNOME3 provide multiple desktops? Yes, it does. Just in a slightly different way I was used to it. But I can still have it if I want.
I have said what I need(ed) to say and GNOME development will go on its own routes - I will continue with XFCE for a while. It is goodbye GNOME for now.
Isn't that great? This is exactly why Open Source and Free Software is so great. No one is locked into anything. You can choose whatever works best for you. And typically only the "best" (well, in the sense of contribution and being loved by non-contributing users) products really survive.
Still, I am not dropping from ambassadors group so easily -at least not yet.
That's good. Because there is no reason at all to confuse Fedora Ambassadors with GNOME3 user interface designers ;)
Cheers, Matthias
Fedora will be the first =D
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:59 AM, Jukka Palander jukka@devspain.com wrote:
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 16:20 +0800, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
Going towards new is good, but we should go in there by listening our users what they want. Being arrogant is not the way.
I don't think Onyeibo was being arrogant.
I did not mean Onyeibo. I meant the Gnome developers!
Please, we are not speaking about animals there, use "GNOME".
There is loads of examples in the web explaining what features Gnome 3 is lacking and what are annoying new and what should be improved. Anyhow _none_ of them was taken into account when moving from 3.0 into 3.2. This is being arrogant by the developers and points very well out that they do not (want to?) listen their users. Its all what "they" think.
GNOME 3 is a breakage in the DE world. GNOME 3 is really young, the developers are working hard to implement new features. They where not waiting to release a complete DE the first time. This is a community effort and developers do what they think is the most important/fun, for now!
And I also don't think we should always listen to what our users want.
+1 to Mathieu!
HUH! Now I seriously must think if I want to be part of Fedora ambassadors team! This is really scary if we do not listen what people think and want to say! By ignorance there is only one way -> DOWN!
We could always listen to them, but think for them, as they don't necessary know the cleverest answer. GNOME differs to the KDE philosophy. The 4 F's are not there for users, but primarily for contributors. We don't have to implement Unity if many users ask us the Unity DE.
Since F15, I've seen *many* new Linux (or Fedora) users really enjoying GNOME 3. Only few prefers other DE, and they know how easy it is to change.
-- Jukka
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 04:32 -0500, Kévin Raymond wrote:
[...]
I did not mean Onyeibo. I meant the Gnome developers!
Please, we are not speaking about animals there, use "GNOME".
Nice way of saying it. So gnomes are now animals... You can point out GNOME is supposed to be an acronym and hence it should be written in capital letters, but it doesn't look to me like it's going to add something to the conversation.
I think Jukka started a interesting thread, because "Know your message" is an important part of an ambassador activity and the ambassadors mailing list it's an invaluable source of information!
I agree this Gnome 3 topic has been discussed a little bit too much everywhere, but still I *thought* that sharing that kind of information could be a good way of clearing up your ideas.
Well, I could be wrong :)
Regards,
Juanjo
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:59 AM, Jukka Palander jukka@devspain.com wrote:
I did not mean Onyeibo. I meant the Gnome developers!
This is being arrogant by the developers and points very well out that they do not (want to?) listen their users. Its all what "they" think.
Have you tried reaching out to GNOME developers yourself? Every time that I've reached out to them, they've listened to my feedback and explained how my idea fits into their overall plans. I haven't always agreed with every one of their decisions, but to blindly write them off as being arrogant doesn't match up with what I've experienced.
And, as it's been stated before, if you really do want to effect change in GNOME, a better place to do that is on the upstream mailing lists (or at a minimum, on the Desktop list).
-- Jared Smith Fedora Project Leader
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 16:20 +0800, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 08:26 +0100, Jukka Palander wrote:
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 13:30 +0000, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
Is this really a topic for Ambassadors list? This should be pursued at the source i.e. Gnome-designers and fedora desktop group. Personally, I find your position too relative (as in, pertaining to personal preferences rather than absolute (based on result of tested scenarios) ... And those scenarios being hypothetical and subjected to testing during development stage). Which experts do you refer to?
This is indeed a place to discuss about it!
Ambassadors list (in my opinion) is especially a forum to discuss about _anything_ what we hear and see in the Fedora users field.
This is _not_ a forum to discuss about how something should be improved (development boards are in place), but we have to remember that we ambassadors are the first people in touch with the users. Therefore our eyes and ears are very valuable asset for development (and I really hope some of the developers reads this list).
I don't think they should (unless they are also ambassadors of course).
Why? As everyone keeps saying "this is an open source project"! I would love someone being not a group member to read this!
Your ears only have value if you translate the message (in dev speak) and forward it to Bugzilla, or similar developers fora.
So this leads us into the huge problem: No-one (other than ambassador) reads this list so _how_ they (other contributors) could understand what happens in (the battle)field? Therefore this mailing list should be axed? ..and we ambassadors should start being members of every other mailing list? ..quite of wrong way of "management".
This is the reason that I think we should say it out loud what people think about Fedora and what they have decided to do no matter if it is one or two users or a larger scale survey.
Really?
Imagine: 541 ambassadors right now. If each one of us sends a message every time we hear something, anything, about Fedora, this list will be overwhelmed by noise, and will become useless.
Cmon, pleeeeeease! Did I send all the messages what I have heard in a first place into this list?
Question: Are those comments we get from the field going into the bin? No-one wants to listen? No place to put them unless you are a member of a very specific development mailing-list etc to put in in a "right place"???
Suggestion: Some place/application for feedback given to ambassadors from users would be nice. Not the email list, but rather some kind of a database drive application where it would be easy to run analyses.. Howtodo-donno..
I still feel that the most valuable feedback comes from the users. Not necessarily from the "linux-novices" but from the advanced and semiadvanced linux users. They (normally) are not members of any mailing list or a group. They just use linux (whatever distribution) as a tool for their work and some of them uses linux for fun/pleasure/hobby/anything.
You are in contact with users, but your role is to be an interface. It is not to say "some guy told me that they don't like $desktop". That's a useless information, no one can act on it to fix a problem and improve the situation.
I am filtering _heavily_. This is just a tip of the iceberg what I said before!
If you honestly think that "sour and noisy" can bring in "new ideas" leading towards improving the status quo, then you haven't spent enough time on devel@fp.o :)
Yap. :-)
-- Jukka
Jukka Palander píše v Po 28. 11. 2011 v 14:21 +0100:
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 16:20 +0800, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 08:26 +0100, Jukka Palander wrote:
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 13:30 +0000, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
Is this really a topic for Ambassadors list? This should be pursued at the source i.e. Gnome-designers and fedora desktop group. Personally, I find your position too relative (as in, pertaining to personal preferences rather than absolute (based on result of tested scenarios) ... And those scenarios being hypothetical and subjected to testing during development stage). Which experts do you refer to?
This is indeed a place to discuss about it!
Ambassadors list (in my opinion) is especially a forum to discuss about _anything_ what we hear and see in the Fedora users field.
This is _not_ a forum to discuss about how something should be improved (development boards are in place), but we have to remember that we ambassadors are the first people in touch with the users. Therefore our eyes and ears are very valuable asset for development (and I really hope some of the developers reads this list).
I don't think they should (unless they are also ambassadors of course).
Why? As everyone keeps saying "this is an open source project"! I would love someone being not a group member to read this!
Your ears only have value if you translate the message (in dev speak) and forward it to Bugzilla, or similar developers fora.
So this leads us into the huge problem: No-one (other than ambassador) reads this list so _how_ they (other contributors) could understand what happens in (the battle)field? Therefore this mailing list should be axed? ..and we ambassadors should start being members of every other mailing list? ..quite of wrong way of "management".
Why? You have to become a group member to write an e-mail to the team mailing list or use the bugzilla to file a ticket/bug? Those are the valid and helpful ways, not general bashing in a mailing list which the relevant developers don't read. If I hear from community members and users that they don't like something or have a problem with something I always encourage them to file a bug/suggestion in the bugzilla, or I do it instead of them. I've filed several bugs against GNOME 3 and the developers cared enough to at least explain me the reasons. I didn't feel they were being arrogant at all.
Jiri
This is the reason that I think we should say it out loud what people think about Fedora and what they have decided to do no matter if it is one or two users or a larger scale survey.
Really?
Imagine: 541 ambassadors right now. If each one of us sends a message every time we hear something, anything, about Fedora, this list will be overwhelmed by noise, and will become useless.
Cmon, pleeeeeease! Did I send all the messages what I have heard in a first place into this list?
Question: Are those comments we get from the field going into the bin? No-one wants to listen? No place to put them unless you are a member of a very specific development mailing-list etc to put in in a "right place"???
Suggestion: Some place/application for feedback given to ambassadors from users would be nice. Not the email list, but rather some kind of a database drive application where it would be easy to run analyses.. Howtodo-donno..
I still feel that the most valuable feedback comes from the users. Not necessarily from the "linux-novices" but from the advanced and semiadvanced linux users. They (normally) are not members of any mailing list or a group. They just use linux (whatever distribution) as a tool for their work and some of them uses linux for fun/pleasure/hobby/anything.
You are in contact with users, but your role is to be an interface. It is not to say "some guy told me that they don't like $desktop". That's a useless information, no one can act on it to fix a problem and improve the situation.
I am filtering _heavily_. This is just a tip of the iceberg what I said before!
If you honestly think that "sour and noisy" can bring in "new ideas" leading towards improving the status quo, then you haven't spent enough time on devel@fp.o :)
Yap. :-)
-- Jukka
-- ambassadors mailing list ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 14:51 +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
..and we ambassadors should start being members of every other
mailing list? ..quite of wrong way of "management".
Why? You have to become a group member to write an e-mail to the team mailing list or use the bugzilla to file a ticket/bug? Those are the valid and helpful ways, not general bashing in a mailing list which the relevant developers don't read.
Just because of that what I just wrote.
You want me to be a group member and read _all_the_fedora_related_development_lists_ to be able to say what I think and what is wrong in a particular part of the whole combination named as Fedora?
Sorry, but this is wrong way.
Developers should read just a couple of major lists (including ambassadors) and they would easily know what people think and whats wrong. Not the vice versa because nobody can be a member of every list.
You have to take into account that this particular GNOME discussion is not the _only_ problem or wish from the field. There are many - as many as there are projects under Fedora and under GNU etc. It is much easier to developer to follow the list of the particular product what they are developing including 2-4 other lists than other way around when we should be members of a hundreds of lists to get our voices heard.
-- Jukka
Where were you when GNOME3 was alpha, ... then beta??? This kind of Rambo-shoot-down-all approach to other people's opinion is unfair and unrealistic. Want a change? YOU GO WHERE its happening and shoot!
Some people on this list are doing that. What you are doing now is shooting the wrong guys! By the time you get down to actually CONTRIBUTING something to fedora I'm sure you'll be tampering your views and expectations with respect for other people's collective inputs.
--------------------------------------------- from twohot@device.mobile :)
-----Original Message----- From: Jukka Palander jukka@devspain.com Sender: ambassadors-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:16:17 To: ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org Reply-To: ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: [Ambassadors] Fedora is the 2º most used Linux s ystem
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 14:51 +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
..and we ambassadors should start being members of every other
mailing list? ..quite of wrong way of "management".
Why? You have to become a group member to write an e-mail to the team mailing list or use the bugzilla to file a ticket/bug? Those are the valid and helpful ways, not general bashing in a mailing list which the relevant developers don't read.
Just because of that what I just wrote.
You want me to be a group member and read _all_the_fedora_related_development_lists_ to be able to say what I think and what is wrong in a particular part of the whole combination named as Fedora?
Sorry, but this is wrong way.
Developers should read just a couple of major lists (including ambassadors) and they would easily know what people think and whats wrong. Not the vice versa because nobody can be a member of every list.
You have to take into account that this particular GNOME discussion is not the _only_ problem or wish from the field. There are many - as many as there are projects under Fedora and under GNU etc. It is much easier to developer to follow the list of the particular product what they are developing including 2-4 other lists than other way around when we should be members of a hundreds of lists to get our voices heard.
-- Jukka
-- ambassadors mailing list ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 14:26 +0000, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
Where were you when GNOME3 was alpha, ... then beta??? This kind of Rambo-shoot-down-all approach to other people's opinion is unfair and unrealistic. Want a change? YOU GO WHERE its happening and shoot!
Some people on this list are doing that. What you are doing now is shooting the wrong guys! By the time you get down to actually CONTRIBUTING something to fedora I'm sure you'll be tampering your views and expectations with respect for other people's collective inputs.
At least I did test the BETA (quite many did not) and I was against it then. Anyhow, I am not part of the GNOME development team so I did not want to interfere. Yes: I admit was deeply wrong about not to say anything then.
-- Jukka
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 15:16 +0100, Jukka Palander wrote:
You want me to be a group member and read _all_the_fedora_related_development_lists_ to be able to say what I think and what is wrong in a particular part of the whole combination named as Fedora?
I don't know if that's what Jiri had in mind (and I certainly don't want to put words in his mouth), but yes, I expect people interested in a particular aspect of Fedora to join the appropriate group and start working on implementing their vision for that aspect/group.
We aren't talking about users here, we are talking about people like you and me: contributors.
Sorry, but this is wrong way.
Developers should read just a couple of major lists (including ambassadors) and they would easily know what people think and whats wrong. Not the vice versa because nobody can be a member of every list.
So GNOME upstream developers should read the GNOME developers mailing lists? The GNOME users mailing lists? The GNOME users mailing lists in their own language? The Fedora users mailing lists? The Ubuntu, Mandriva, Opensuse,... users and developers mailing lists? The ambassadors mailing lists of every downstream distribution? The QA lists too?
Where do you draw the line?
When are they supposed to fix those bugs and implement those features if they spend their time reading emails? :)
You have to take into account that this particular GNOME discussion is not the _only_ problem or wish from the field. There are many - as many as there are projects under Fedora and under GNU etc.
You have to take into accounts that most FOSS developers are not working on only one product. They work on many, usually their own products and all the software that they depend on.
It is much easier to developer to follow the list of the particular product what they are developing including 2-4 other lists than other way around when we should be members of a hundreds of lists to get our voices heard.
Are you a developer of a project as wide and with as many downstream distributors as a desktop environment?
On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 22:52 +0800, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
Are you a developer of a project as wide and with as many downstream distributors as a desktop environment?
No, I am not such a developer anymore and I have never been a large scale open source project developer.
My profile is the following:
I have been a (C) developer since mid 80's and I have developed many _very_large_scale_ systems for many _very_large_scale_ organizations and corporates, mostly industrial such as iron/steel production, timber/forestry, paper making, car manufacturers, dairy and many government (EU) based, those mainly C/C++ and nowadays PHP etc.
Also I have been working more than 5 years as a Development Department Manager and then after as a Technology Intelligent Manager of the Information Management Unit (Data Administration) for the largest telecommunications operator in Scandinavia.
For the last 10+ years I have been running my own small scale ICT company focusing into the development of small and middle-scaled organizations and specializing into the open source based business solutions.
What else you need?
Please feel free to browse my profile at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Devspain
-- Jukka
On 11/28/2011 03:16 PM, Jukka Palander wrote:
You want me to be a group member and read _all_the_fedora_related_development_lists_ to be able to say what I think and what is wrong in a particular part of the whole combination named as Fedora?
You do not need to join *all* mailing lists. You can either directly file a bug or change request, or you can join the one mailing list being relevant to your ideas and concerns.
http://live.gnome.org/JoinGnome
Sorry, but this is wrong way.
Why? Just because you think so?
Developers should read just a couple of major lists (including ambassadors) and they would easily know what people think and whats wrong. Not the vice versa because nobody can be a member of every list.
But you expect *developers* to be subscribed to all mailing lists?!
You have to take into account that this particular GNOME discussion is not the _only_ problem or wish from the field. There are many - as many as there are projects under Fedora and under GNU etc. It is much easier to developer to follow the list of the particular product what they are developing including 2-4 other lists than other way around when we should be members of a hundreds of lists to get our voices heard.
No way. This would be a significant waste of their time. Most of them contribute in their free time and they either work on stuff *they* have interest in or they work on stuff someone else has specified in a wish list. The latter can be done by product managers or by users, depending on the size and the structure of the project respectively.
Cheers, Matthias
mån 2011-11-28 klockan 15:16 +0100 skrev Jukka Palander:
Developers should read just a couple of major lists (including ambassadors) and they would easily know what people think and whats wrong. Not the vice versa because nobody can be a member of every list.
Developers most often do not have much time or interest to read user discussions, their priorities is on development. Main feedback channel to developers is to file bug reports or ideas for enhancement upstream where the developer is.
You have to take into account that this particular GNOME discussion is not the _only_ problem or wish from the field. There are many - as many as there are projects under Fedora and under GNU etc.
Indeed. Which in my math quickly gives that the average signal to noise ratio on the Fedora ambassadors list for any such project which Fedora is composed of is negliable.
It is much easier to developer to follow the list of the particular product what they are developing including 2-4 other lists than other way around when we should be members of a hundreds of lists to get our voices heard.
None of the two alternatives above is the way to go. Developers from every project can't be member of every possible list where feedback may arise (which is in the order of 200-400, not 2-4, plus countless number of forums etc), and Fedora ambassadors can't be members of every project Fedora is made of.
Instead we need to learn how to direct feedback where it belongs in a constructive manner. Directing users to give feedback where it belongs is not by any means to ignore feedback.
Regards Henrik
mån 2011-11-28 klockan 14:21 +0100 skrev Jukka Palander:
So this leads us into the huge problem: No-one (other than ambassador) reads this list so _how_ they (other contributors) could understand what happens in (the battle)field? Therefore this mailing list should be axed? ..and we ambassadors should start being members of every other mailing list? ..quite of wrong way of "management".
The ambassadors list is for communication and coordination among ambassadors. As such the ambassadors list is not read by many outside the ambassadors group. Sure, some things may be hit via Google, but it's not a place where outside people active go and look to find information.
As ambassadors it's our duty to spread the word on the values of Fedora and educate users in how to become contributors to the project, including how to provide feedback to where it belongs which is one of many ways to contribute to Fedora.
However, feedback from users not willing to listen to answers is not very helpful. Feedback blooms when it results in a bidirectional exchange of ideas. Relayed feedback most often is one-way only and therefore of very limited value to everyone involved.
As others already explained world domination is not a goal for Fedora. First is however, which involves trying out and exploring new ideas long before accepted by everyone else. This do frequently cause friction at various places (users, developers, packagers, you name it) but also a lot of momentum moving things forward. The GNOME Shell is the first real major change we have had in user experience and therefore brings a lot of reactions from users for good and bad. And as always it's mainly the negative reactions that is loudest.
Personally I think it's a good change. Still a little rough but confident it will find the right balance and make our life with the computer a lot easier.
Question: Are those comments we get from the field going into the bin? No-one wants to listen? No place to put them unless you are a member of a very specific development mailing-list etc to put in in a "right place"???
If you want to proxy the feedback rather than educate and guide the user where to correctly provide the feedback then yes.
Suggestion: Some place/application for feedback given to ambassadors from users would be nice. Not the email list, but rather some kind of a database drive application where it would be easy to run analyses.. Howtodo-donno..
ask.fedoraproject.org comes to mind as a possible channel here, because very often there is other (and sometimes better) ways to accomplish what is asked for. But I know it's not really what you asked for.
Any one-way feedback mechanism tends to result in a black hole. Sure, it may be possible to draw some kind of conclusions from it by statistical analyzis, but most likely both the feedback as such and any those conclusions will be very skewed by various factors and misunderstandings.
I still feel that the most valuable feedback comes from the users. Not necessarily from the "linux-novices" but from the advanced and semiadvanced linux users. They (normally) are not members of any mailing list or a group. They just use linux (whatever distribution) as a tool for their work and some of them uses linux for fun/pleasure/hobby/anything.
The most frequent feedback I have seen/heard on GNOME Shell is that its too different, and people do not like change. Humans by nature value comfort in what they know, and every forced change is a big stress. But sometimes change is needed to hopefully accomplish something better in the end.
The right question on the GNOME Shell topic to ask here on the list is "I hear a lot of complaints on GNOME Shell when out in the field, how should I as am ambassador tackle those complaints?"
Regards Henrik
Consider joining the Gnome-Shell list or the list for Unity. Ambassadors report UX as they interact with users/potential contributors at events and during personal support using blogs and The Planet news AFAIK. I am a member of Gnome-Shell list and Ur concerns have been discussed to death there,
If U asked how an Ambassador should react in the face of such displeasure then that's different. Otherwise, there are other groups that exist within fedora to resolve engineering and design issues. You should take the discussion to them. Again there is difference between reporting what users say and reporting what you feel about what they say. There is a difference between asking for the Ambassadors' position to what was said and proffering a position for the Ambassadors to adopt. The way you present your view suggests the applicable audience and right now I doubt you are communicating to the right one.
Finally, I wish to apologize for top-posting. I am seriously limited by blackberry OS 5, except I use third party app like Opera (a process that is quite painful). Please bear with me ... Gotta buy that netbook fast :))
--------------------------------------------- from twohot@device.mobile :)
-----Original Message----- From: Jukka Palander jukka@devspain.com Sender: ambassadors-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 08:26:52 To: ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org Reply-To: ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: [Ambassadors] Fedora is the 2º most used Linux s ystem
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 13:30 +0000, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
Is this really a topic for Ambassadors list? This should be pursued at the source i.e. Gnome-designers and fedora desktop group. Personally, I find your position too relative (as in, pertaining to personal preferences rather than absolute (based on result of tested scenarios) ... And those scenarios being hypothetical and subjected to testing during development stage). Which experts do you refer to?
This is indeed a place to discuss about it!
Ambassadors list (in my opinion) is especially a forum to discuss about _anything_ what we hear and see in the Fedora users field.
This is _not_ a forum to discuss about how something should be improved (development boards are in place), but we have to remember that we ambassadors are the first people in touch with the users. Therefore our eyes and ears are very valuable asset for development (and I really hope some of the developers reads this list).
This is the reason that I think we should say it out loud what people think about Fedora and what they have decided to do no matter if it is one or two users or a larger scale survey. -and no matter if it is something we do not want to hear.
I find Gnome3 easier to use and I have been using Gnome2 from F11. I don't think its perfect but I appreciate the direction and would rather suggest ways of improving what is ... As long as its in the direction of the future. Change is around us. We either adapt or die ... If the Linux community is concerned about decline in usage in favour of other Linux solutions then I'm left in wonder - because that is not really a loss. And what does it profit if the circle is comprised of a clique of old GUI purists and new people are brewing outside the fence?
Going towards new is good, but we should go in there by listening our users what they want. Being arrogant is not the way.
Finally, this kind of thread has the potential to go sour and noisy. This is simply not the forum for it.
Being sour and noisy at least leads us into the discussion (which usually leads into new ideas). Being silent won't lead us into anything else than backwards.
-- Jukka
from twohot@device.mobile :)
-----Original Message----- From: Jukka Palander jukka@devspain.com Sender: ambassadors-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 14:01:55 To: ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org Reply-To: ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: [Ambassadors] Fedora is the 2º most used Linux s ystem
On Sun, 2011-11-27 at 11:37 -0100, Nuno Rodrigues Rodrigues wrote:
According to experts, this decline may be explained by the introduction of the Unity interface in Ubuntu for users new to Linux, is more complicated than the GNOME version 3, still used in other distributions from the top of the table."
Distrowatch always shows high ranking when new distro is released. Just wait for the next Ubuntu release.. Unfortunately.
And according my personal knowledge (by all the friends and other Fedora users who I know or where I have been installing Fedora) Gnome 3 is lacking a lot and I have installed mostly the XFCE spin. This is due the Gnome 3.x's really poor user interface, it's modifiability and highly unergonomic window management. Good (or maybe bad) news is that all the Ubuntu users who I know are totally annoyed about Unity also and they want their old style Gnome 2.x back!
Roughly I would say, I've been installing, less than 20% Gnome and more than 80% XFCE. All of them because people want their old style Gnome back and XFCE is the easiest way to get the same feeling.
I seriously would think if Gnome right way to proceed for Fedora? At least I say NO -it is not! We should think about something else to be a default desktop. Personally I also switched into the XFCE spin from F14 after I had skipped F15 entirely!
I am really sad, because this is not Fedoras fault. I _love_ Fedora but I do hate Gnome 3 which is going 10 years back on usability for me. Just being nice looking is not enough.
-- Jukka
-- ambassadors mailing list ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors -- ambassadors mailing list ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
-- ambassadors mailing list ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
Am Sonntag, den 27.11.2011, 11:37 -0100 schrieb Nuno Rodrigues Rodrigues:
I have some good news for everyone who is envolved on Fedora:
"According to the site DistroWatch, [...]
These numbers mean nothing. Distrowatch just counts how often the description of a distribution is clicked. This doesn't say anything about the numbers of installs or users.
We have way better numbers at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics or http://smolts.org/static/stats/stats.html but unfortunately other distributions don't have something to compare.
We need to continue working on Fedora for continue because we are so close to the first place. People know that Fedora have what they need as ambassadors and we must pass on those.
Fedora does not strive to become the most used distro. Instead, we are working on emerging technology and technical excellence. We are the leader in Free and Open Source software because we have the biggest impact on the whole ecosystem. Other distributions now switch to technology we developed and used for years.
If we get more users, that's fine, but what we really want is more contributors to extend our technological lead. Sure, a larger user base means more potential contributors, but it's not that simple: 1. Users must be willing to participate. Ubuntu and others have always tried to be easy to use for newbies, but as these people hardly contribute back, they have gained nothing. 2. We need to make it easier to get involved in Fedora. If people decide they want to contribute, we need to offer them a chance to participate in a way that suits their needs and their skills. Even if we want the latest and the greatest technology, we must not focus only on geeky developers. Instead we must give everybody something to do in Fedora, whether it is testing, marketing, design, packaging, translations or something else.
The real success of Fedora cannot be measured in the number of users but in the number of contributions to the whole Linux ecosystem and I wish that all ambassadors understand this message and spread it.
Last but not least: Lets not argue or compete with other distributions about stupid numbers, let's all work together to make more and better Free software!
Regards, Christoph
P.S.: @everybody: If you are still posting HTML mail with full quotes, please take a moment to read http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines - thanks!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christoph Wickert" christoph.wickert@googlemail.com To: ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 8:49:18 PM Subject: [Ambassadors] It doesn't really matter if Fedora is the 2º most used Linux system
We need to continue working on Fedora for continue because we are so close to the first place. People know that Fedora have what they need as ambassadors and we must pass on those.
Fedora does not strive to become the most used distro. Instead, we are working on emerging technology and technical excellence. We are the leader in Free and Open Source software because we have the biggest impact on the whole ecosystem. Other distributions now switch to technology we developed and used for years.
+1. That's the main reason why I decided to be a part of Fedora community, not any others.
That's also the reason encourages more people to join with us.
If we get more users, that's fine, but what we really want is more contributors to extend our technological lead. Sure, a larger user base means more potential contributors, but it's not that simple: 1. Users must be willing to participate. Ubuntu and others have always tried to be easy to use for newbies, but as these people hardly contribute back, they have gained nothing.
+1. Case study from Ubuntu is fit in this case.
2. We need to make it easier to get involved in Fedora. If people decide they want to contribute, we need to offer them a chance to participate in a way that suits their needs and their skills. Even if we want the latest and the greatest technology, we must not focus only on geeky developers. Instead we must give everybody something to do in Fedora, whether it is testing, marketing, design, packaging, translations or something else.
People just need to have sharing culture. Then they need to know that Fedora is the best place for them to contribute most to the whole FOSS ecosystem. That's one of our main missions as an ambassador.
The real success of Fedora cannot be measured in the number of users but in the number of contributions to the whole Linux ecosystem and I wish that all ambassadors understand this message and spread it.
Last but not least: Lets not argue or compete with other distributions about stupid numbers, let's all work together to make more and better Free software!
I totally share with Christoph's ideas.
Kind regards, Tuan
Christoph Wickert wrote:
Am Sonntag, den 27.11.2011, 11:37 -0100 schrieb Nuno Rodrigues Rodrigues:
I have some good news for everyone who is envolved on Fedora:
"According to the site DistroWatch, [...]
These numbers mean nothing. Distrowatch just counts how often the description of a distribution is clicked. This doesn't say anything about the numbers of installs or users.
We have way better numbers at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics or http://smolts.org/static/stats/stats.html but unfortunately other distributions don't have something to compare.
We need to continue working on Fedora for continue because we are so close to the first place. People know that Fedora have what they need as ambassadors and we must pass on those.
Fedora does not strive to become the most used distro. Instead, we are working on emerging technology and technical excellence. We are the leader in Free and Open Source software because we have the biggest impact on the whole ecosystem. Other distributions now switch to technology we developed and used for years.
If we get more users, that's fine, but what we really want is more contributors to extend our technological lead. Sure, a larger user base means more potential contributors, but it's not that simple: 1. Users must be willing to participate. Ubuntu and others have always tried to be easy to use for newbies, but as these people hardly contribute back, they have gained nothing. 2. We need to make it easier to get involved in Fedora. If people decide they want to contribute, we need to offer them a chance to participate in a way that suits their needs and their skills. Even if we want the latest and the greatest technology, we must not focus only on geeky developers. Instead we must give everybody something to do in Fedora, whether it is testing, marketing, design, packaging, translations or something else.
The real success of Fedora cannot be measured in the number of users but in the number of contributions to the whole Linux ecosystem and I wish that all ambassadors understand this message and spread it.
Last but not least: Lets not argue or compete with other distributions about stupid numbers, let's all work together to make more and better Free software!
Regards, Christoph
P.S.: @everybody: If you are still posting HTML mail with full quotes, please take a moment to read http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines - thanks!
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+1
At last a something well-advised according to fedoraproject policies !
Best regard.
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 02:49:18PM +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
Am Sonntag, den 27.11.2011, 11:37 -0100 schrieb Nuno Rodrigues Rodrigues:
I have some good news for everyone who is envolved on Fedora:
"According to the site DistroWatch, [...]
These numbers mean nothing. Distrowatch just counts how often the description of a distribution is clicked. This doesn't say anything about the numbers of installs or users.
We have way better numbers at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics or http://smolts.org/static/stats/stats.html but unfortunately other distributions don't have something to compare.
We need to continue working on Fedora for continue because we are so close to the first place. People know that Fedora have what they need as ambassadors and we must pass on those.
Fedora does not strive to become the most used distro. Instead, we are working on emerging technology and technical excellence. We are the leader in Free and Open Source software because we have the biggest impact on the whole ecosystem. Other distributions now switch to technology we developed and used for years.
If we get more users, that's fine, but what we really want is more contributors to extend our technological lead. Sure, a larger user base means more potential contributors, but it's not that simple: 1. Users must be willing to participate. Ubuntu and others have always tried to be easy to use for newbies, but as these people hardly contribute back, they have gained nothing. 2. We need to make it easier to get involved in Fedora. If people decide they want to contribute, we need to offer them a chance to participate in a way that suits their needs and their skills. Even if we want the latest and the greatest technology, we must not focus only on geeky developers. Instead we must give everybody something to do in Fedora, whether it is testing, marketing, design, packaging, translations or something else.
The real success of Fedora cannot be measured in the number of users but in the number of contributions to the whole Linux ecosystem and I wish that all ambassadors understand this message and spread it.
Last but not least: Lets not argue or compete with other distributions about stupid numbers, let's all work together to make more and better Free software!
This is one of the best summaries I've seen recently explaining why these Distrowatch numbers shouldn't be a focus for Fedora. Well done, Christoph!
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:19 AM, Christoph Wickert christoph.wickert@googlemail.com wrote:
If we get more users, that's fine, but what we really want is more contributors to extend our technological lead.
The real success of Fedora cannot be measured in the number of users but in the number of contributions to the whole Linux ecosystem and I wish that all ambassadors understand this message and spread it.
Last but not least: Lets not argue or compete with other distributions about stupid numbers, let's all work together to make more and better Free software!
Can't agree more !
Thanks Christoph for such a great email !
- Gomix - A4
Great news. I believe more user friendliness fedora Linux will help to raise to Nos 1 position then ;-) On Nov 27, 2011 8:38 PM, "Nuno Rodrigues Rodrigues" nunor5@hotmail.com wrote:
Hello
I have some good news for everyone who is envolved on Fedora:
"According to the site DistroWatch, Ubuntu, in the last 3 months, was the second most widely used Linux system for the fourth position, having been excluded from the three distributions used worldwide.
The table shows that the Mint continues to lead, *but the Fedora moves to second position (previously in the third)* and openSUSE to third (formerly fourth).
According to experts, this decline may be explained by the introduction of the Unity interface in Ubuntu for users new to Linux, is more complicated than the *GNOME version 3*, still used in other distributions from the top of the table."
We need to continue working on Fedora for continue because we are so close to the first place. People know that Fedora have what they need as ambassadors and we must pass on those.
Nuno Rodrigues
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