I think this is pretty easy, If GNOME 3.0 wallpaper must be there by default, we could add in a new feature during bootup or just before a users first login asking the user to choose between Fedora's Default Wallpaper & GNOME 3.0 Default wallpaper. Here the user is King. Lets not forget that GNOME's come a long way & we have some of our very own working with them. Fedora has always been a platform for true open source applications. Lets carry GNOME 3.0 along even though we could make provisions for UNITY or even google chrome much later.
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Today's Topics:
- Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Onyeibo Oku)
- Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Martin Sourada)
- Call For Papers - 2011 World Congress on Mathematics and Statistics (WCMS 2011)
- Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Nicu Buculei)
- Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Jaroslav Reznik)
Message: 1 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 03:09:14 +0100 From: Onyeibo Oku twohotis@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15 To: Fedora Design Team design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 4D0D694A.7020109@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 12/19/2010 03:02 AM, Jim Campbell wrote:
Hi All,
2010/12/18 M?ir?n Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org mailto:duffy@fedoraproject.org>
On Sun, 2010-12-19 at 02:16 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > No, no, you misunderstood. I don't imply we should ship to gnome spins. > We should either ship in F15 gnome as pristine as possible or just do it > they way we do it usually. Neither of these should of courseaffect > other spins and IMHO also not DVD install.
Why? Again, you are proposing this all or nothing thinking and I completely do not understand it. Can you please explain? > PS: I think we should slowly kill this thread, I'm running "outof > ammo", your arguments also haven't been strong enough to make me change > my mind and I wouldn't want to make this into a flame...
We have to make a decision. ~mI think that the Fedora Project is in a good spot here in that the default Gnome3 wallpaper is a shade of blue that coincides nicely with the colors that Fedora uses anyway.
The same cannot be said of OpenSUSE, though.
Given the hubbub that is in Fedora where there isn't really a conflict of colors, but other distros would likely have a conflict with the colors, would upstream Gnome be willing to compromise on this? Would upstream be willing to allow distros to create stripe-based wallpapers that include the same design pattern, same degree of saturation, same texture, etc., but use different distro-specific colors? After all, could we really expect OpenSUSE to ship a blue theme? So much of their artwork (website, icon set, metacity theme, etc.) is green. And I have never seen a blue gecko. : (
If we were able get a compromise like this, I think that there would be greater likelihood of buy-in from the various the distros. They would be representing and celebrating Gnome, but would retain key portions of their own distro "self." Perhaps even Ubuntu would be willing to ship an aubergine stripe-based theme as part of their wallpaper set (though, of course, not as their default, as they are using Unity).
This could also potentially benefit Gnome, as they could do something like, "Different Colors, One Gnome," or something like that. The Gnome brand identity could be visible in the stripes, while the distros get their identity in the colors.
Jim
That's what I thought too
Oku Onyeibo http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:twohot
Message: 2 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 10:40:15 +0100 From: Martin Sourada martin.sourada@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15 To: Fedora Design Team design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 1292751616.2356.178.camel@localhost.localdomain Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
On Sat, 2010-12-18 at 20:34 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote:
On Sun, 2010-12-19 at 02:16 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
No, no, you misunderstood. I don't imply we should ship to gnome
spins.
We should either ship in F15 gnome as pristine as possible or just do
it
they way we do it usually. Neither of these should of course affect other spins and IMHO also not DVD install.
Why? Again, you are proposing this all or nothing thinking and I completely do not understand it. Can you please explain?
Because I don't understand at all why change only the wallpaper. How does that help anyone. It's like doing something half-heartedly to me.
PS: I think we should slowly kill this thread, I'm running "out of ammo", your arguments also haven't been strong enough to make me
change
my mind and I wouldn't want to make this into a flame...
We have to make a decision.
Agreed. Seems to me like vote is the best option (probably FAS based as not everyone has time to attend an IRC meeting). As I already said, while I'm personally against granting this request, I wouldn't mind granting it if majority of our team is for it.
emeka@bensoftent.com (emeka@bensoftent.com) said:
I think this is pretty easy, If GNOME 3.0 wallpaper must be there by default, we could add in a new feature during bootup or just before a users first login asking the user to choose between Fedora's Default Wallpaper & GNOME 3.0 Default wallpaper. Here the user is King.
That's an absolutely horrible UI; it would be like asking them at boot time what their shell should be, or their mail client, or their web browser, or any number of other implementation details that just serves to confuse the user and get in the way of them actually logging in and doing whatever task they want. It's important to choose good defaults, not just punt choices to the user.
Bill
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
That's an absolutely horrible UI; it would be like asking them at boot time what their shell should be, or their mail client, or their web browser, or any number of other implementation details that just serves to confuse the user and get in the way of them actually logging in and doing whatever task they want. It's important to choose good defaults, not just punt choices to the user.
Last time I did an install there was a series of questions / intrusive UI on the first boot, is it so different?
As a user I don't really care what the background is, so long as my subjective impression doesn't find it offensive. If I find it offensive it's only a few clicks to replace it.
If I was a Gnome developer I'd probably be keen to see the upstream presentation preserved; as a user I do find some value in this.
If I was a Fedora design team member I'd probably be keen for users to have access to the Fedora version of Gnome 3, equally as a user I would like to have this option.
Isn't it crucial to keeping everyone reasonably happy to let the users have the option to choose from both alternatives, and wouldn't a first boot question fit that perfectly?
-Cam
On 12/21/2010 02:33 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
That's an absolutely horrible UI; it would be like asking them at boot time what their shell should be, or their mail client, or their web browser, or any number of other implementation details that just serves to confuse the user and get in the way of them actually logging in and doing whatever task they want. It's important to choose good defaults, not just punt choices to the user.
Last time I did an install there was a series of questions / intrusive UI on the first boot, is it so different?
Yes, it is, we already have to many question at firstboot. We should not ask there questions that are trivial or for which the user is not prepared to answer.
As a user I don't really care what the background is, so long as my subjective impression doesn't find it offensive. If I find it offensive it's only a few clicks to replace it.
If I was a Gnome developer I'd probably be keen to see the upstream presentation preserved; as a user I do find some value in this.
If I was a Fedora design team member I'd probably be keen for users to have access to the Fedora version of Gnome 3, equally as a user I would like to have this option.
They still can have the choice in the background selection app and we provide there aa larger pool to choose from, but, and this was the philosophy in GNOME for *years*, is important to have good defaults.
Isn't it crucial to keeping everyone reasonably happy to let the users have the option to choose from both alternatives, and wouldn't a first boot question fit that perfectly?
No, it would be too much to ask, is a slippery slope, where do we start? ask also about icon themes, cursor look, preferred SMTP server, shoes size etc.?
Then if it's not sufficiently important to ask a user, it probably isn't worth deliberating further.
Toss a coin or something? Provide a random default?
I wish there was more focus to package up and present alternative themes than to provide a single look for each release. I'm thinking that I get a better experience from choosing and using a WordPress theme than I do from clicking about on the desktop or visiting gnome-look.org or art.gnome.org. The default WordPress look is fine. It's taken for granted that users will replace it though. Shouldn't it be similar for the desktop?
-Cam
On 12/21/2010 03:12 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
Then if it's not sufficiently important to ask a user, it probably isn't worth deliberating further.
Firstboot is not the time to ask that many questions, the system is supposed to be able to run, not wait for the user to ask countless questions.
Toss a coin or something? Provide a random default?
Provide the *better* default.
I wish there was more focus to package up and present alternative themes than to provide a single look for each release. I'm thinking
As a matter of fact for F14 we produced a set of alternate wallpapers, but there was not enough space on the media for them to be included so they are available only for download: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F14_Artwork_Supplemental_Wallpapers_Winners
that I get a better experience from choosing and using a WordPress theme than I do from clicking about on the desktop or visiting gnome-look.org or art.gnome.org. The default WordPress look is fine. It's taken for granted that users will replace it though. Shouldn't it be similar for the desktop?
The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.
I think this is wrong:
Provide the *better* default.
That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome and either might be equally good for a user!
The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.
If there was a choice then the reviews would notice that, surely? Would they complain more about being offered a choice than about someone else's idea of the 'better' background?
I would be much more worried about first impressions of things like Gnome Shell than the background. If we provide Gnome Shell by default, will anyone even notice the background?
-Cam
On 12/21/2010 03:39 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
I think this is wrong:
Provide the *better* default.
That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome
And this is the crux of the debate we have here, do we want the better for Fedora or for GNOME.
and either might be equally good for a user!
For the user is important to have an *usable* wallpaper and a smooth experience.
The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.
If there was a choice then the reviews would notice that, surely? Would they complain more about being offered a choice than about someone else's idea of the 'better' background?
Yes, asking for that choice would be bad usability and a real reason for us to be shamed. As much as I oppose having the upstream wallpaper as a default, I would agree is better having it instead of asking the user to choose at the wrong time (firstboot).
I would be much more worried about first impressions of things like Gnome Shell than the background. If we provide Gnome Shell by default, will anyone even notice the background?
The plan from the Desktop people is to have the Shell as a default (if it will be ready in time) and their intention is to use the upstream wallpaper as default to emphasize this.
On Tuesday, December 21, 2010 03:15:05 pm Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/21/2010 03:39 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
I think this is wrong:
Provide the *better* default.
That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome
And this is the crux of the debate we have here, do we want the better for Fedora or for GNOME.
And why not to make happy both parties? :)
R.
and either might be equally good for a user!
For the user is important to have an *usable* wallpaper and a smooth experience.
The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.
If there was a choice then the reviews would notice that, surely? Would they complain more about being offered a choice than about someone else's idea of the 'better' background?
Yes, asking for that choice would be bad usability and a real reason for us to be shamed. As much as I oppose having the upstream wallpaper as a default, I would agree is better having it instead of asking the user to choose at the wrong time (firstboot).
I would be much more worried about first impressions of things like Gnome Shell than the background. If we provide Gnome Shell by default, will anyone even notice the background?
The plan from the Desktop people is to have the Shell as a default (if it will be ready in time) and their intention is to use the upstream wallpaper as default to emphasize this.
On 12/21/2010 04:21 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
On Tuesday, December 21, 2010 03:15:05 pm Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/21/2010 03:39 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
I think this is wrong:
Provide the *better* default.
That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome
And this is the crux of the debate we have here, do we want the better for Fedora or for GNOME.
And why not to make happy both parties? :)
Because this is not possible? The impasse we are in does not have a solution that will please everybody.
On 21 December 2010 14:39, Camilo Mesias camilo@mesias.co.uk wrote:
I think this is wrong:
Provide the *better* default.
That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome and either might be equally good for a user!
No. One default can be better than another. Even if you take a subjective approach and take a poll. You'll get a clear winner ... subjective as the result may appear, you have a more acceptable art. It is important to provide a generally accepted winner than a winner accepted by a few.
The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.
If there was a choice then the reviews would notice that, surely? Would they complain more about being offered a choice than about someone else's idea of the 'better' background?
I would be much more worried about first impressions of things like Gnome Shell than the background. If we provide Gnome Shell by default, will anyone even notice the background?
Of COurse! I am using gnome-shell and I see the wallpaper all the time. Maybe you should preview Gnome3 first
-Cam _______________________________________________ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Hi,
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 2:32 PM, twohot twohot@fedoraproject.org wrote:
No. One default can be better than another. Even if you take a subjective approach and take a poll. You'll get a clear winner ... subjective as the result may appear, you have a more acceptable art. It is important to provide a generally accepted winner than a winner accepted by a few.
I think the point is that the Fedora background and the Gnome one are both likely to be technically excellent backgrounds. Users would get along fine with either. A choice is more likely to be made on religious grounds and any poll you take will be heavily influenced by the opinions of the people polled.
If a user choice is really such a horrible UI then someone will have to decide on a default. The person responsible will risk alienating some people. The 'losers' will have to swallow their pride and we can all move on to something that users will actually care about.
Of COurse! I am using gnome-shell and I see the wallpaper all the time. Maybe you should preview Gnome3 first
I've been using Gnome shell since I first noticed I could, and I love it. I know it's not perfect. I know not everyone loves it but I am really looking forward to it being the default :) If it ships then I will be stunned to hear reviews along the lines of "It has Gnome shell which is so different to the old desktop in so many ways but the thing that really bugged me was this wallpaper" :)
-Cam
On 12/21/2010 11:14 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 2:32 PM, twohot wrote:
No. One default can be better than another. Even if you take a subjective approach and take a poll. You'll get a clear winner ... subjective as the result may appear, you have a more acceptable art. It is important to provide a generally accepted winner than a winner accepted by a few.
I think the point is that the Fedora background and the Gnome one are both likely to be technically excellent backgrounds. Users would get along fine with either. A choice is more likely to be made on religious grounds and any poll you take will be heavily influenced by the opinions of the people polled.
There is nothing religious here, is all about identity, marketing and strategy.
If a user choice is really such a horrible UI then someone will have to decide on a default. The person responsible will risk alienating some people. The 'losers' will have to swallow their pride and we can all move on to something that users will actually care about.
Ideally we would NOT vote (yes, I also think this is a bad way to make the decision) but decide by consensus. We as a team tried to operate this way all along (F10 was a bad exception we don't want to repeat).
On 12/22/2010 07:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote: <snip>
Ideally we would NOT vote (yes, I also think this is a bad way to make the decision) but decide by consensus. We as a team tried to operate this way all along (F10 was a bad exception we don't want to repeat).
I joined after F11. Would be helpful to know what happened at F10.
On 12/22/2010 09:11 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
On 12/22/2010 07:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
<snip> > Ideally we would NOT vote (yes, I also think this is a bad way to make > the decision) but decide by consensus. We as a team tried to operate > this way all along (F10 was a bad exception we don't want to repeat). >
I joined after F11. Would be helpful to know what happened at F10.
We had 4 competing design (Solar, InvinXible, Gears and Neon), nobody backed down, it was impossible for the team to get to a consensus for a "winner", we had to vote which lead to huge debates, animosity and people trying to rig the system (join the team only for the vote). We decided we want to be friends and not repeat the experience.
On 12/22/2010 08:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2010 09:11 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
On 12/22/2010 07:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
<snip> > Ideally we would NOT vote (yes, I also think this is a bad way to make > the decision) but decide by consensus. We as a team tried to operate > this way all along (F10 was a bad exception we don't want to repeat). >
I joined after F11. Would be helpful to know what happened at F10.
We had 4 competing design (Solar, InvinXible, Gears and Neon), nobody backed down, it was impossible for the team to get to a consensus for a "winner", we had to vote which lead to huge debates, animosity and people trying to rig the system (join the team only for the vote). We decided we want to be friends and not repeat the experience.
That looks dangerously similar to what's happening -- I mean the increased interest in Design-Team membership within the past 48hrs. I don't feel too good any more (I moved the motion for votes). Only that we have an 'alien' design to deal with time time around.
<thinking aloud> I personally don't buy the wallpaper concept (stripes) but it does go well with the Gnome3 mock-ups (which means the Gnome3 interface overhaul will be more at home with the kind of wallpapers made by the Fedora Design Team). However, in the spirit of Open-Source and Linux OS as a whole, its humbling to get a request to assist a major contributor to Linux DE.
Argh ... *scratching-my-head* ... but Fedora Design team handles design request other than those internally generated. Why didn't Gnome ask us to do this through the usual means -- place the request on Trac and alarm us to do our thing -- to produce a mock-up wallpaper (even link a sample concept, the stripes). It would have been downstream -> upstream motion as usual. That would have made this case so much easier. It would have been a Gnome3 wallpaper ... but a Fedora Design Team work.
It adds up. This is a dilemma ... How did we get here? How do we end this? </thinking aloud>
On 12/22/2010 11:08 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
On 12/22/2010 08:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
We had 4 competing design (Solar, InvinXible, Gears and Neon), nobody backed down, it was impossible for the team to get to a consensus for a "winner", we had to vote which lead to huge debates, animosity and people trying to rig the system (join the team only for the vote). We decided we want to be friends and not repeat the experience.
That looks dangerously similar to what's happening -- I mean the
Only then it was a fight inside the team, not is an inter-teams conflict. I think now is much worse, is about our identity.
increased interest in Design-Team membership within the past 48hrs. I don't feel too good any more (I moved the motion for votes). Only that we have an 'alien' design to deal with time time around.
I am a sponsor of the Design group in FAS and so far there were no problems there, no new members accepted (ar people applying) since this debate started.
Argh ... *scratching-my-head* ... but Fedora Design team handles design request other than those internally generated. Why didn't Gnome ask us to do this through the usual means -- place the request on Trac and alarm us to do our thing -- to produce a mock-up wallpaper (even link a sample concept, the stripes). It would have been downstream -> upstream motion as usual. That would have made this case so much easier. It would have been a Gnome3 wallpaper ... but a Fedora Design Team work.
Do you think any other major distro will happily use a design made by Fedora?
On Wed, 2010-12-22 at 12:51 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
I am a sponsor of the Design group in FAS and so far there were no problems there, no new members accepted (ar people applying) since this debate started.
I mentioned in one email folks should email me if they need it (and not apply) and I got a *bunch* of emails.
~m
On 12/22/2010 11:08 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
That looks dangerously similar to what's happening -- I mean the increased interest in Design-Team membership within the past 48hrs. I don't feel too good any more (I moved the motion for votes). Only that we have an 'alien' design to deal with time time around.
I want to reiterate this: my *strong* preference is for us to not have to vote but to reach a consensus. We are dangerously on the way for something ugly. And I don't like it takes so long. We need to be back friends and fast.
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.rowrote:
I want to reiterate this: my *strong* preference is for us to not have to vote but to reach a consensus. We are dangerously on the way for something ugly. And I don't like it takes so long. We need to be back friends and fast.
I would be all for a consensus but I don't think that will happen since from my point of view, the request would have to be turned down. I don't want the team to suffer because of this and I really like the wallpaper in question, but I really fear for the future of the team and about Fedora design in general if we don't make a stand at this point.
That is totally my personal opinion, though. And I'm often wrong...
Fab
On 12/22/2010 12:01 PM, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro mailto:nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro> wrote:
I want to reiterate this: my *strong* preference is for us to not have to vote but to reach a consensus. We are dangerously on the way for something ugly. And I don't like it takes so long. We need to be back friends and fast.
+1 but how? We also need a lasting solution to this kind of conflict. So, there is going to be some sour moments ... but we need to get it finalized for good.
I would be all for a consensus but I don't think that will happen since from my point of view, the request would have to be turned down. I don't want the team to suffer because of this and I really like the wallpaper in question, but I really fear for the future of the team and about Fedora design in general if we don't make a stand at this point.
That is totally my personal opinion, though. And I'm often wrong...
Your concerns seem right to me. Is there no group in Fedora that handles this kind of scenario (an SIG or something?). Both parties have legitimate concerns but there are better ways to address them.
First, Gnome3 designers made a mistake in proceeding with a wallpaper design outside of the Fedora Design team -- If they see our distro as a marketing route then we should have been involved from the beginning.
Second, that decision (as mentioned above) can be interpreted negatively and no one can be held responsible for choosing the wrong interpretation. It could mean: "We can do this in-house and have a rein over the overall GUI" (which also suggests a GNOME DISTRO ;) -- I don't mean a default Fedora Spin ...I mean a real Gnome Distro with the Gnome 'Foot' everywhere!, no further branding). It could also mean: "We can do this better than downstream guys" ... which makes us redundant. It could mean that the Gnome Team forgot they had a pool to draw from and is only realizing it now.
Third, Several years of Gnome3 development is not a joke. They deserve some level of marketing but they shouldn't make it mandatory (which suggests some kind of Master-Slave relationship). In any case, a "No" from the Fedora Design Team should NOT brew hard feelings and, on the other hand, Fedorians shouldn't fail to proudly exhibit Gnome3 to people out there.
Boundaries ... gentlemen, lets agree to agree OR agree to disagree. Disagreeing to agree is making this topic bloated and prolonged. :)
Hi all,
Fab's comment below seems to be a recurring feeling in this thread that I want to better understand.
How does using a wallpaper that was not a product of solely this team [1] result in fear for the future of this team?
I understand that the wallpaper is a large part of the visual identity of a Fedora release. I don't understand the idea that the team's very existence is somehow threatened if each and every release's wallpaper isn't custom made. Perhaps it is a part of the team history that I'm unaware of?
It sounds like if the team doesn't create a wallpaper then it ceases to provide value to Fedora?
Kirk
[1] I thought I read that part of the Fedora Design Team helped create the wallpaper, didn't they?
On 12/22/2010 03:01 AM, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
.... I don't want the team to suffer because of this and I really like the wallpaper in question, but I really fear for the future of the team and about Fedora design in general if we don't make a stand at this point.
Hey, Kirk!
I never said the team's existence was threatened. What I meant was the fact that when I mention the Design Team to outsiders, the wallpaper is what comes to their mind. For the outside world, that's largely what we do. Losing this, if only temporarily, risks marginalising the Design Team. My fear for the future stemmed from the fact that some people were saying using upstream art would generally make sense for Fedora. At that point, we hardly need a Design Team (at least not to work on the distro itself).
I don't know about others, but I joined the team because I wanted to contribute to Fedora (as in, mainly the distro). I didn't join to do random design tickets for other projects or spend all of my time designing marketing collateral. Not that I wouldn't do these other things as well, they just aren't my main reason to be on the team. I want Fedora to be the best distro out there UI/UX-wise. I personally think that is not unreasonable.
Cheers, Fab
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 5:32 AM, Kirk Bridger kbridger@shaw.ca wrote:
Hi all,
Fab's comment below seems to be a recurring feeling in this thread that I want to better understand.
How does using a wallpaper that was not a product of solely this team [1] result in fear for the future of this team?
I understand that the wallpaper is a large part of the visual identity of a Fedora release. I don't understand the idea that the team's very existence is somehow threatened if each and every release's wallpaper isn't custom made. Perhaps it is a part of the team history that I'm unaware of?
It sounds like if the team doesn't create a wallpaper then it ceases to provide value to Fedora?
Kirk
[1] I thought I read that part of the Fedora Design Team helped create the wallpaper, didn't they?
On 12/22/2010 03:01 AM, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
.... I don't want the team to suffer because of this and I really like the wallpaper in question, but I really fear for the future of the team and about Fedora design in general if we don't make a stand at this point.
design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
On 12/23/2010 06:32 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote:
Fab's comment below seems to be a recurring feeling in this thread that I want to better understand.
Let me intervene here, as I am one of the older people around.
How does using a wallpaper that was not a product of solely this team [1] result in fear for the future of this team?
I understand that the wallpaper is a large part of the visual identity of a Fedora release. I don't understand the idea that the team's very existence is somehow threatened if each and every release's wallpaper isn't custom made. Perhaps it is a part of the team history that I'm unaware of?
I may sound dramatic, but during its existence the Design Team was over the time assaulted by the Red Hat Desktop Team by using its control of the default (GNOME Live CD) spin, for example they blocked the icon project developed by our team (Echo, which was "good" while led by one people from RHDT), they removed the Nodoka theme for a plain upstream default (despite opposition from other sub-projects using it for other spins), they forced a new notification theme on everybody without asking and so on.
Is also not the first time when they propose changing the wallpaper with something external. Some people here don't buy the "is a one time only thing" and expect to hear later "see how well it worked? let's do it again"
It sounds like if the team doesn't create a wallpaper then it ceases to provide value to Fedora?
This is the very first item our team created (that brought us together) and the most visible of our products.
Maybe it's time for a change. I do not like excessive stubbornness and anchoring in the past. I do not think that is a matter of manipulation. It's just one step. Fedora had a few wallpapers that have not been very successful. Eventually we stop to go in parallel with Fedora wallpaper. Gnome's wallpaper to version 3.0. If you go the idea that the design team is not able to make a wallpaper, we will not achieve anything. Evolution of the involution is not successful, and vice versa, the involution is not evolution.
2010/12/23 Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro:
On 12/23/2010 06:32 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote:
Fab's comment below seems to be a recurring feeling in this thread that I want to better understand.
Let me intervene here, as I am one of the older people around.
How does using a wallpaper that was not a product of solely this team [1] result in fear for the future of this team?
I understand that the wallpaper is a large part of the visual identity of a Fedora release. I don't understand the idea that the team's very existence is somehow threatened if each and every release's wallpaper isn't custom made. Perhaps it is a part of the team history that I'm unaware of?
I may sound dramatic, but during its existence the Design Team was over the time assaulted by the Red Hat Desktop Team by using its control of the default (GNOME Live CD) spin, for example they blocked the icon project developed by our team (Echo, which was "good" while led by one people from RHDT), they removed the Nodoka theme for a plain upstream default (despite opposition from other sub-projects using it for other spins), they forced a new notification theme on everybody without asking and so on.
Is also not the first time when they propose changing the wallpaper with something external. Some people here don't buy the "is a one time only thing" and expect to hear later "see how well it worked? let's do it again"
It sounds like if the team doesn't create a wallpaper then it ceases to provide value to Fedora?
This is the very first item our team created (that brought us together) and the most visible of our products.
-- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Catalin catalinfest@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe it's time for a change. I do not like excessive stubbornness and anchoring in the past.
Change just for change's sake can be very dangerous. Decisions like this have to be thought through properly. We can't just willy-nilly agree to such a fundamental request. If we agree, there has to be good reasoning for it. In any case, we have to think about it carefully. I really respect Nicu's experience, he's been with the team for very long and we should at least think about his points.
Fab
Then let him decide . Do not waste your time writing emails .
2010/12/23 Fabian A. Scherschel fab@sixgun.org:
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Catalin catalinfest@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe it's time for a change. I do not like excessive stubbornness and anchoring in the past.
Change just for change's sake can be very dangerous. Decisions like this have to be thought through properly. We can't just willy-nilly agree to such a fundamental request. If we agree, there has to be good reasoning for it. In any case, we have to think about it carefully. I really respect Nicu's experience, he's been with the team for very long and we should at least think about his points. Fab _______________________________________________ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Catalin catalinfest@gmail.com wrote:
Then let him decide . Do not waste your time writing emails .
I am not wasting my time and I want to be part of the decision making process. Please let me decide when I deem it necessary to write emails and when it isn't.
Fab
I'm not talking to you personally (just I reply to mail). Of course it's your decision, which may be unanimous. I could not see how I change your decision. But watching the posts, I saw a basic idea - I do not agree with the gnome wallpaper.
2010/12/24 Fabian A. Scherschel fab@sixgun.org:
On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Catalin catalinfest@gmail.com wrote:
Then let him decide . Do not waste your time writing emails .
I am not wasting my time and I want to be part of the decision making process. Please let me decide when I deem it necessary to write emails and when it isn't. Fab _______________________________________________ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
On Wed, 2010-12-22 at 12:55 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2010 11:08 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
That looks dangerously similar to what's happening -- I mean the increased interest in Design-Team membership within the past 48hrs. I don't feel too good any more (I moved the motion for votes). Only that we have an 'alien' design to deal with time time around.
I want to reiterate this: my *strong* preference is for us to not have to vote but to reach a consensus. We are dangerously on the way for something ugly. And I don't like it takes so long. We need to be back friends and fast.
+1 I would honestly really prefer a simple consensus.
~m
Oh, come on!
Asking the user what wallpaper they want on boot is obviously nonsense! Should we also ask them what colour icons they want or where the panels should be? How about the browser or the default email program? Where does it stop?
The job of a distribution is too decide on sensible defaults so the user doesn't have to. This is ridicolous!
Fab
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:57 PM, emeka@bensoftent.com wrote:
I think this is pretty easy, If GNOME 3.0 wallpaper must be there by default, we could add in a new feature during bootup or just before a users first login asking the user to choose between Fedora's Default Wallpaper & GNOME 3.0 Default wallpaper. Here the user is King. Lets not forget that GNOME's come a long way & we have some of our very own working with them. Fedora has always been a platform for true open source applications. Lets carry GNOME 3.0 along even though we could make provisions for UNITY or even google chrome much later.
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Today's Topics:
- Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Onyeibo Oku)
- Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Martin Sourada)
- Call For Papers - 2011 World Congress on Mathematics and Statistics (WCMS 2011)
- Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Nicu Buculei)
- Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Jaroslav Reznik)
Message: 1 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 03:09:14 +0100 From: Onyeibo Oku twohotis@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15 To: Fedora Design Team design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 4D0D694A.7020109@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 12/19/2010 03:02 AM, Jim Campbell wrote:
Hi All,
2010/12/18 M?ir?n Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org mailto:duffy@fedoraproject.org>
On Sun, 2010-12-19 at 02:16 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote: > No, no, you misunderstood. I don't imply we should ship to gnome spins. > We should either ship in F15 gnome as pristine as possible or just do it > they way we do it usually. Neither of these should of courseaffect > other spins and IMHO also not DVD install.
Why? Again, you are proposing this all or nothing thinking and I completely do not understand it. Can you please explain? > PS: I think we should slowly kill this thread, I'm running "outof > ammo", your arguments also haven't been strong enough to make me change > my mind and I wouldn't want to make this into a flame...
We have to make a decision. ~mI think that the Fedora Project is in a good spot here in that the default Gnome3 wallpaper is a shade of blue that coincides nicely with the colors that Fedora uses anyway.
The same cannot be said of OpenSUSE, though.
Given the hubbub that is in Fedora where there isn't really a conflict of colors, but other distros would likely have a conflict with the colors, would upstream Gnome be willing to compromise on this? Would upstream be willing to allow distros to create stripe-based wallpapers that include the same design pattern, same degree of saturation, same texture, etc., but use different distro-specific colors? After all, could we really expect OpenSUSE to ship a blue theme? So much of their artwork (website, icon set, metacity theme, etc.) is green. And I have never seen a blue gecko. : (
If we were able get a compromise like this, I think that there would be greater likelihood of buy-in from the various the distros. They would be representing and celebrating Gnome, but would retain key portions of their own distro "self." Perhaps even Ubuntu would be willing to ship an aubergine stripe-based theme as part of their wallpaper set (though, of course, not as their default, as they are using Unity).
This could also potentially benefit Gnome, as they could do something like, "Different Colors, One Gnome," or something like that. The Gnome brand identity could be visible in the stripes, while the distros get their identity in the colors.
Jim
That's what I thought too
Oku Onyeibo http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:twohot
Message: 2 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 10:40:15 +0100 From: Martin Sourada martin.sourada@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15 To: Fedora Design Team design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 1292751616.2356.178.camel@localhost.localdomain Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
On Sat, 2010-12-18 at 20:34 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote:
On Sun, 2010-12-19 at 02:16 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
No, no, you misunderstood. I don't imply we should ship to gnome
spins.
We should either ship in F15 gnome as pristine as possible or just do
it
they way we do it usually. Neither of these should of course affect other spins and IMHO also not DVD install.
Why? Again, you are proposing this all or nothing thinking and I completely do not understand it. Can you please explain?
Because I don't understand at all why change only the wallpaper. How does that help anyone. It's like doing something half-heartedly to me.
PS: I think we should slowly kill this thread, I'm running "out of ammo", your arguments also haven't been strong enough to make me
change
my mind and I wouldn't want to make this into a flame...
We have to make a decision.
Agreed. Seems to me like vote is the best option (probably FAS based as not everyone has time to attend an IRC meeting). As I already said, while I'm personally against granting this request, I wouldn't mind granting it if majority of our team is for it. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 490 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url :
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Message: 4 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 09:21:59 +0200 From: Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15 To: Fedora Design Team design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 4D0F0417.8020607@nicubunu.ro Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 12/17/2010 06:01 PM, Owen Taylor wrote:
If the team doing the default Fedora desktop switched and did a GNOME remix instead this cycle, who would do the default Fedora desktop? (I'm sure you'd be happy to switch the default to KDE for this cycle, but... ;-)
Yes, if you do a remix, nobody will object on whatever branding you apply to it, as long as it is not our *default* download.
And how would we distinguish between the two different downloads when presenting options to the user? We'd basically be offering the user the choice between two different almost identical things because we couldn't come to a decision.
One is the default download, linked practically from everywhere and the other one is listed on the spins page, on the same level with everybody else.
-- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
Message: 5 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 10:02:26 +0100 From: Jaroslav Reznik jreznik@redhat.com Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15 To: Fedora Design Team design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 201012201002.26880.jreznik@redhat.com Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8"
On Saturday, December 18, 2010 02:23:52 am M?ir?n Duffy wrote:
Hi Martin,
On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 22:28 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
IMHO this would lessen Fedora's visual identity a lot. Imagine you
boot
a F15 Desktop Live and what you see is almost pristine GNOME 3
desktop.
Where's Fedora in it? Where's our own visual identity in it?
Our visual identity would (if the proposal is accepted) be present on the website, on the DVD disc labels and sleeves, in syslinux, in the installer, in firstboot, in plymouth, and on the login screen. The wallpaper we design will be the default for GDM.
Moreover,
KDE shipped our wallpaper with the 4.0 release, why should we treat GNOME differently? Is it some new trend?
I honestly don't remember the KDE SIG ever approaching us with this request. And honestly why would they? - they aren't the default download, so it's not up to this team, it's up to the KDE SIG what to do. This team, the design team, has purview over the default wallpaper in the default Fedora. Spins have always been able to change their wallpapers as they've liked, and we've even designed alternative wallpapers for them at their request (e.g., Education Spin and Security Spin.)
Actually I asked for something I proposed here - KDE was in the same situation one year ago... And I still think it's a good idea - to merge upstream/downstream branding - it would work best for both Gnome and KDE, it's long-term solution etc. I'll try to write down the proposal.
But you said it - Gnome spin is now the default one - we should take care about our jewel.
R.
OK, so upstream wants to promote GNOME 3. I'm not a fan of gnome-shell (quite the contrary), but let them do it. But why the visual identity? It's the behaviour, the work-flow, the experience that makes GNOME 3 from end-user point of view, and it's the visual identity that makes
our
distro Fedora from end-user POV (among other things, but the visual identity is the first thing you see).
They believe the stripes is part of their upstream visual identity. To be fair, they are producing a lot of nice visual materials including videos that have the stripes - because as a DE they must remain neutral wrt distros, so they obviously cannot pick a favorite in choosing a wallpaper. They would like the visual identity then across GNOME-produced materials and Fedora materials and materials produced by journalists and other reviewers checking out GNOME 3 via Fedora to be consistent. This makes sense to me. After F15, it won't be as big a deal since all the hooplah will be over, so at that point we can go back to the standard operating procedure.
So in short, let's be *first* to ship GNOME 3 and let's be *first* to ship it with our own visual identity. We, the fedora design team,
should
be leaders in our area as well ;-)
I am unsure if we will be the first to ship GNOME 3. Certainly we will be first to ship it by default. I don't understand how we are being leaders in what you suggest here.
~m
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Fab,
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Fabian A. Scherschel fab@sixgun.org wrote:
Oh, come on! Asking the user what wallpaper they want on boot is obviously nonsense! Should we also ask them what colour icons they want or where the panels should be? How about the browser or the default email program? Where does it stop? The job of a distribution is too decide on sensible defaults so the user doesn't have to. This is ridicolous!
It's not that ridiculous if you think about it. It might be different to what you are used to from a Linux distro.
I'm thinking of lots of modern websites where the design and functionality has been changed*. These are leading sites that haven't got to where they are by alienating users. It is similar to changing the way the desktop works. As a gentle introduction to the changes, the user on first login is offered a tour of the new features which integrates nicely with a chance to change or set the optional bits of the interface. Actually I think that would work really well with Gnome 3 if only someone had the time, the overall vision and the responsibility for making sure the users 'bought in' to the new design...
-Cam
* new.facebook.com and then Facebook's 'New profile'; the second redesign of Orkut; YouTube's new layout all had interactive tours to introduce users to the new features (and turn bits of them off if they didn't like them)
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Camilo Mesias camilo@mesias.co.uk wrote:
It's not that ridiculous if you think about it. It might be different to what you are used to from a Linux distro.
I'm thinking of lots of modern websites where the design and functionality has been changed*. These are leading sites that haven't got to where they are by alienating users. It is similar to changing the way the desktop works.
I am sorry, but I don't agree. I meant what I said. It's horrible UX, even I can see that. Fedora is not Facebook or Twitter and even if you could compare a desktop operating system to a website, I'd say the way that these proprietary, closed systems are handling their design choices is nothing a volunteer-driven Linux distro should aspire to. As Nicu said, we already have way too many choices, questions and knobs as it stands. I don't want us to become one-happy-button MacOS, far from that, but we still need to be conscious of not confusing or annoying end users-
As a gentle introduction to the changes, the user on first login is offered a tour of the new features which integrates nicely with a chance to change or set the optional bits of the interface. Actually I think that would work really well with Gnome 3 if only someone had the time, the overall vision and the responsibility for making sure the users 'bought in' to the new design...
Do you remember Windows XP? I haven't seen one single user in five years of part-time professional Windows end-user support that hasn't clicked away these tours immediately. People don't want them. People also want a nice default wallpaper without being asked questions.
If in doubt, I'd rather use the stock Gnome wallpaper than asking people questions first. It's a nice-looking wallpaper and my quarrel with adopting it lies on a very different level as I hope I've made clear in this thread already.
No offense, I didn't want to insult you, I just wanted to be clear about it.
Fab
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