Hello

----- ----- ----- Would be much more interesting have a constructive opinion about a mockup (because this is a mockup of a design-ticket in development) instead call people retarded.

Even so, thank you for your critiques. ----- ----- -----

this is what I write in his blog, and is the same message for the design team

Nobody is giving a look to the HUGE list of active tickets that we have, nobody is taking care of the people that is asking US to help them with artwork... instead, we give more importance to what a blog say without even help US in the team.

Really people... you want to be part of this team and help with artwork or you are just going to wait that someone make a mistake to insult the effort?

I'm talking about my particular artwork, about wallpaper (that I see only a 20% of the regular help) and about everything else related the last 3 months with this team

Lets think if we are here to work or just to turn the team into a talk show pls-

2011/2/20 Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org

There's enough people with valid points that have the self-control to forgo the snark that I really don't want to voluntarily subject myself to it.

If you think that is wise. I personally accept comments based on the merit of the actual content rather than the way they are offered. If one is easily offended, one shouldn't ask the public for comments. Transparency and openness has their downsides, but I aspire to still keep an open mind and be cool with people that disagree with me.

Fab

On Sun, 2011-02-20 at 22:22 +0100, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:

2011/2/20 Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org

    There's enough people with valid points that have the
    self-control to
    forgo the snark that I really don't want to voluntarily
    subject myself
    to it.

If you think that is wise. I personally accept comments based on the merit of the actual content rather than the way they are offered. If one is easily offended, one shouldn't ask the public for comments. Transparency and openness has their downsides, but I aspire to still keep an open mind and be cool with people that disagree with me.

Would also be nice to see less time wasted defending someone's right to be an ass and more time spent helping Tatica finish up tickets and get things done. If the dude's "feedback" is "valid" and useful, wouldn't it be worth spending more time coming up with useful suggestions from that feedback to help Tatica?

Was that too harsh? It's okay right? There's a valid point with merit buried in this!

~m

On Sun, 2011-02-20 at 20:30 +0000, twohotis@gmail.com wrote:

Not all his points though.

Some people do value freedom. I subscribe to a product that respects my freedom. The extra emphasis is odd though.

Even when viewed in light of costs, nothing comes free but if its prepaid then the recipients really have some freedom ... Else put a price tag. That is also legitimate.

This is just another controversial thread. I wouldn't dwell on those rants. the worst way to learn is to unlearn

One of the key differentiators between Fedora and other Linux distros is our commitment to freedom. No, you don't get MP3s out of the box. There's a good reason why. Tatica's mockup is absolutely accurate on that point. No, it doesn't make sense to emphsize weaknesses, but it's also *wrong* to lie or mislead.

Also viewing the poster in context (which I'll note Mr. Snark did not) it is one of 4 points; it's not broadcast as the sole selling point of Fedora at all.

Some rewording might help. Here's the language we use on this very same point on fedoraproject.org:

"Freedom is key: Advancing software and content freedom is a key goal of the Fedora Project."

"We believe we should use and distribute the software and content we promote to accomplish our mission of advancing free software. We provide free alternatives to proprietary code and content to make Fedora completely free and redistributable for everyone. That way, anyone can use any of our work for their own purposes, without legal hassles, to further spread free software."

Our stance on software freedom helps our users, because we are working to promote and defend our users' rights with respect to the software we use. So maybe some suggestions for rewording:

"Defending your freedom"

"Freedom is key"

"Advancing free software"

"Freedom is a feature"

Hope this helps, ~m

On Sun, 2011-02-20 at 16:38 -0430, María Leandro wrote:

btw, I "knew" I got that slogan from some place... back in 2008

Complete thread: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2008-October/msg00227....

LOL the phrasing is totally *my* mistake. I thought this all sounded familiar. We had a similar discussion back then, and I think we ended up changing it to "Freedom is a feature" for the very same reason.

Tatica, you've got class, I know you're not sweating it but I just wanted to re-emphasize that you are doing great work here. You are taking care of tickets and making some great progress. You know you're doing things right so don't let this silliness demotivate you!

~m

On Sun, 2011-02-20 at 22:29 +0100, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:

Who said anything about lying or misleading?

I did, was just laying out the two extremes to be avoided.

But mentioning ones weaknesses is not what advertising is about. There is a whole gamut of grey in between lying and misleading and bluntly stating the truth and that gamut is exactly where good advertising lives.

Just look at Apple. I hate this company and their products but when it comes to advertising, they know what they are doing.

Yeh, I'm particularly amused by the number of iPad advertisements I see in the subway with the iPad phallically placed between the user's legs.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.tuaw.com/media/2010/03/st-oscars-ipad-ad.jpg http://mediamemo.allthingsd.com/files/2010/07/ipad-ad.jpg http://blog.ziggytek.com/wp-content/uploads/ziggytek/blog/2010/03/ipad-ad.jp... http://cultofmac.cultofmaccom.netdna-cdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/20...

Have you actually tried to lay back with a tablet or even a book in that position? It's not exactly comfortable. (well at least not for me, it takes a bit of contortion.)

Slogans like this one is why we can't compete with them out there IMHO. We can have all the freedom and happiness in our ivory tower, but if we can't get it to users none of this matters.

No. The reason we can't compete is because this much ado is made and time wasted about a filler slogan in a mockup. It's like writing a restaurant review of a dish while it's still uncooked in the pan.

Now, if all that energy could be harnessed towards instead making advertising that subliminally convinces viewers that Fedora will endow them in a desirable way....

Tongue in cheek, ~m

Let me try to make a few things clear -

On Sun, 2011-02-20 at 22:45 +0100, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:

Anyway, I was actually trying to help. From the last few weeks I can see that is not wanted.

We absolutely want your help. You are a talented artist and have a good eye for design.

I will concentrate on actually producing some artwork as soon as I can get the time to do it as it has become clear to me that the atmosphere around here isn't what I mistook it for. To be clear, I don't feel offended. Mo telling me on IRC is was full of bullshit didn't offend me and so didn't anything else.

There is a big difference between calling an inanimate object (a blog post as the case was) "bullshit" and calling a person, our teammate, "retarded." There's always lines you have to be careful to not cross when using foul language and unfortunately the fellow who wrote the blog post crossed the line.

Defending his right to be as foul-mouthed as he pleases was *not* useful, no. We all know anybody can say whatever they want on the internet and occasionally jerks have a point - this is not news.

I believe in telling people what I think and can very well take the reverse, but I understand that this isn't wanted in many places. I also didn't want to offend anyone of you, I was just trying to pass on what I thought was a valid point.

The volume of messages defending the guy was uncalled for. Otherwise I think it's easily understood you were simply trying to pass on what you considered useful feedback.

~m

These guys gave you homework... You filled two pages of emails for what? Who are those people? Are some of us?

2011/2/21 María Leandro tatica@fedoraproject.org:

Hola.

People. I don't know if my mails are getting to the list (hope they are). I believe that we must get to work and perhaps work on a new marketing campaign giving a refresh to our slogans.

I've just opened a new mail thread (maybe in 10mins) and I hope to see your ideas there. I think that what we need is to put this energy into make things go better.

:)

-- tatica Maria Gracia Leandro http://www.tatica.org http://www.fedora-ve.org http://proyectofedora.org http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MariaLeandro LinuxUser= 440285 GPG Public Key: E1CDCC56 "Be yourself... Don't be anyone else"

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