On 11/30/2009 05:02 PM, Máirín Duffy wrote:

Lukáš Vlček wrote:

...

Interesting article: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/11/giving-up-the-gimp-is-a-sign...

On a trend that seems neverending, Fedora did it first with far less fanfare from the media.

~m _______________________________________________ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

I don't understand why it is getting any attention. You don't even have to compile the package from source! You have to check "GNU Image Manipulation Software" in their little synaptic package manager and they're done. People are getting lazy...

I am worried about this tendency, from both Fedora and Ubuntu, of dumbing-down the desktop spins: if Windows does not offer any useful application out-of-the-box,our key to success is NOT to lower to the same level and also offer nothing useful as the OOTB experience.

Out of the box, the Desktop spin offers:

- a web browser - a mail/calendar/etc client - a VoIP/video chat program - a media/movie player - a music library player - a word processor - a document viewer - a photo viewr with simple editing

Especially with the move to many web-based services and applications, I find that a far cry from 'does not offer any useful application', even if one particular one you may prefer isn't on there.

Bill

On 12/02/2009 10:30 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:

On 12/02/2009 06:03 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:

...

Out of the box, the Desktop spin offers:

• a web browser
• a mail/calendar/etc client
• a VoIP/video chat program
• a media/movie player
• a music library player
• a word processor
• a document viewer
• a photo viewr with simple editing

That's the same level of functionality as Windows OOTB, thanks but no thanks (at a second thought, it may be even less than Windows).

...

Especially with the move to many web-based services and applications, I find that a far cry from 'does not offer any useful application', even if one particular one you may prefer isn't on there.

I thought we are here about Free software, which the web-based applications are not.

To be fair, Nicu, and me going back to the version I know best....XP, Windows doesn't really offer a mail/calendar/etc client, voIP/video, word processor, or much of a photo viewer with simple editing, out of the box. Not sure where exactly to get Outlook, but it's not there by default. MS Word and Office in general is one of their real cash cows and they keep that seperate, video/VoIP you have to go download MSN Messenger. Regarding a browser, yeah they include IE but really the best use for that is downloading Firefox, which we offer by default.

On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 09:21 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:

I am worried about this tendency, from both Fedora and Ubuntu, of dumbing-down the desktop spins: if Windows does not offer any useful application out-of-the-box,our key to success is NOT to lower to the same level and also offer nothing useful as the OOTB experience.

What if we offer the art studio spin for F13 though? Then there would be an OOTB experience specifically tailored for folks interested in graphics in particular...

~m

On 12/02/2009 07:02 PM, Máirín Duffy wrote:

On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 09:21 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:

...

I am worried about this tendency, from both Fedora and Ubuntu, of dumbing-down the desktop spins: if Windows does not offer any useful application out-of-the-box,our key to success is NOT to lower to the same level and also offer nothing useful as the OOTB experience.

What if we offer the art studio spin for F13 though? Then there would be an OOTB experience specifically tailored for folks interested in graphics in particular...

If a Workstation or Design spin emerges an is at least half-decent, al the news articles published by my local (Romanian) community will stop linking to the Desktop spin and link to that instead. We will also stop handling Desktop live media at local event and promote that instead.

On 12/03/2009 03:22 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:

On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 09:19 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:

...

If a Workstation or Design spin emerges an is at least half-decent, al the news articles published by my local (Romanian) community will stop linking to the Desktop spin and link to that instead. We will also stop handling Desktop live media at local event and promote that instead.

Everybody has his own agenda, of course. Yours seems to be openly hostile to the desktop spin.Why is that ?

Because it is the flagship spin, the default, the one that will give people an image about what Fedora is. I think its quality is poor and I don't feel good when I have to recommend people to download it and I don't feel good when I give away CDs, knowing what people around me expect (for me, I can download and use the install DVD).

Can we not disagree about design choices without fighting each other ?

I really don't care that much what happens with the various spins I never use, but the default spin is something different, a lot more important.

On 12/03/2009 04:29 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:

The GIMP, Inkscape, Scribus, and other art and design applications in Linux are superb. There's no doubt about that -- they're very useful for people who know, or want to know, how to create great art. But they also have learning curves that far exceed the patience of an average desktop productivity user. (I speak as a person who's not much of an artist, and able to do only minimal tasks in any of these apps.) So there's nothing wrong with moving those apps out of a system that's designed for a user like me. I can always get them later if I want them.

Paul, I know you are trying to define a set of personas who are the Fedora target and those are what is usually called "power users" (enthusiasts, developers, system administrators). The Desktop Spin is something more like the lowest common denominator, not something for this category of users.

On the other hand, having those apps in a dedicated Design spin is a great idea. Promoting that alternate spin is just as valid as promoting any other, and it's one of the primary reasons we even have spins. We needn't have such a negative conversation about it; it's an opportunity to create something new to fill a niche you feel is not currently served well. I'd prefer if the introduction of that spin is not colored by hostility toward another part of the Fedora community, but instead, introduced in a positive spirit of helping a new group do cool things with the Fedora distribution.

Honestly, I would NOT prefer to recommend a Design Spin as a default download, but more likely something like a Workstation Spin, having also some development tools, some productivity stuff and so on.

On 12/03/2009 05:18 PM, Caius 'kaio' Chance wrote:

Hi Paul and people,

I am using Inkscape to create banner for Fedora Chinese User Group forum :)

http://kaio.fedorapeople.org/pic/fzug_banner.png

Would there be any substitutions for those in new spin? I worried when there are still communities where located in low-bandwidth regions, or should they have to decide which spin to be installed from the beginning seriously?

AFAIK, the only spin that will allow you to do such type of work out of the box is Education: http://spins.fedoraproject.org/edu/

On 12/03/2009 04:42 PM, Máirín Duffy wrote:

What are the goals of your local community in promoting Linux? What kind of users are you promoting to? Are they more artistically-inclined? Or do they simply want more functionality than is available in a CD-based spin?

See, next week I will give a presentation about Fedora at a local conference (the audience will probably be mostly university students, maybe CS students). I cant talk with a straight face about the 4 foundations when: - freedom: when we indirectly suggest proprietary online apps (I was told so earlier in this thread); - friends: when our flagship spin is designed practically by a couple of people inside their little universe and ignoring everyone else (like nuking Nodoka); - features: when we remove features left and right. Only with "first" I can be covered.

I'm trying to understand the need - maybe the Desktop spin is not the right one for your local community - but I'm trying to figure out what would be. E.g., maybe the Desktop spin does not have the Gimp, but if your argument is that there are folks who are not professional artists who have use for the Gimp, maybe there could be something like, I don't know, "Desktop Pro," "Desktop for Technical Professionals," or "Desktop Plus" or "Desktop Extended" or "Desktop Showcase" spin that is much larger and has a different goal, eg.

I think GIMP is only a symptom, not the single problem. Honestly, I would be happier with Inkscape getting at last on the install DVD, where we have about 1GB of unused space.

• the Desktop spin's goal is perhaps a clean& simple / finely-honed

collection of a basic desktop experience for basic desktop productivity common across multiple domains without much domain-specific content;

And it's users are not the people from which we are expecting to come back to the project and contribute. Most of them will not even bother to search the web and learn which additional application they can install.

• this new spin's goal is to show off the best-of-the-best free and open

source desktop applications across many domains. It would be more like a hall-of-fame kind of spin.

Yes, that is more like something I would use to introduce people to FLOSS, a disk with applications that will make their lives better, where they can discover awesome stuff.

Hi Nicu!

On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 17:23 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:

On 12/03/2009 04:42 PM, Máirín Duffy wrote:

...

What are the goals of your local community in promoting Linux? What kind of users are you promoting to? Are they more artistically-inclined? Or do they simply want more functionality than is available in a CD-based spin?

• freedom: when we indirectly suggest proprietary online apps (I was

told so earlier in this thread);

Well, there is a school of thought that computing is moving from the desktop to the web and at some point the desktop won't matter as much. I am not sure how I feel about that. But, there are lots of free alternatives even with webapps, so driving functionality to the web doesn't have to mean going proprietary.

• friends: when our flagship spin is designed practically by a couple of

people inside their little universe and ignoring everyone else (like nuking Nodoka);

To be fair, Matthias has been asking for a lot of input on the fedora-desktop list (E.g., the recent post about default content) and trying to be good about announcing changes. Of course the communication could be better but to be fair Matthias and Jon have what I consider a huge workload outside of that. I think that the desktop spin doesn't have the same community around it that other spins have. I would like to see more contributors who buy into their vision for it step up and help out and help communicate about it as well. It's a chicken and egg problem - it's hard to build that community up without good communication, but it's hard to communicate without a community of folks to help out.

I think to be really fair, we should assume that the communication problem is not intentional, and there isn't an intention to ignore anybody either. I think they are just overloaded with other work that has to be higher priority.

I also think this is all more complex because the desktop spin is being stretched and shoehorned into fitting purposes that are at odds with each other, as it is the default spin. Even if Matthias and Jon have a vision for it that plenty of people don't agree with it, the important thing is that there is a vision at all - there was not before. It's important to have a vision, and for the uses that don't fall within that vision, let's figure out a solution for those as well.

I think GIMP is only a symptom, not the single problem. Honestly, I would be happier with Inkscape getting at last on the install DVD, where we have about 1GB of unused space.

Would it be possible to put together an audit of the best-of-class software like Inkscape you think should be on the install DVD? I think it would be a useful document.

...

• the Desktop spin's goal is perhaps a clean& simple / finely-honed

collection of a basic desktop experience for basic desktop productivity common across multiple domains without much domain-specific content;

And it's users are not the people from which we are expecting to come back to the project and contribute. Most of them will not even bother to search the web and learn which additional application they can install.

I think it's okay though, if they don't contribute, or at least, if they don't contribute back right away. For example, as you know I will be teaching a group of middle school students using open source software. I would love to see more schools using open source software - but we cannot expect the students, who may not even be of age to legally contribute back, to contribute right away. Rather we want to spread the FOSS so they are aware of it. They can 'contribute' by spreading the word and telling other people about it, and building a buzz around it.

For me, if a student I teach Inkscape to then goes on to graduate and uses Inkscape in high school and college and shares it with their friends and writes about it on Facebook or wherever - I think that would be amazing. While I think it would be wonderful if the student also signed up for the Fedora design team and started helping us make icons and banners and such - it's not necessary. To spread Inkscape and Fedora is enough.

Anyhow, the target users for the desktop spin certainly can and I think will share it with others, and in that way they really would be contributing back because they are spreading the message of open source for us. That's one of our mission statement goals - to spread open source software. I think we need these types of users to survive.

...

• this new spin's goal is to show off the best-of-the-best free and open

source desktop applications across many domains. It would be more like a hall-of-fame kind of spin.

Yes, that is more like something I would use to introduce people to FLOSS, a disk with applications that will make their lives better, where they can discover awesome stuff.

It seems like maybe we should have a different spin for that, then. It's a different goal and is a little at odds with the Desktop spin goal I think.

What is the diff between the two do you think? What applications should be added?

~m

Hi Nicu!

On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 19:26 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:

Is perfectly fine and even desirable to have a vision, but when that vision is going to be pushed as *the default*, I expect it to be constructed more openly, taking into account the received input and be shared by a large part of the community.

Sure, and that viewpoint is completely understandable. I think the problem though is the communication hasn't been at the level it should have been, so my guess is that a lot of feedback the Desktop SIG has received hasn't been as constructive as they would like. And how could it be, if it was given without a good idea of what the vision and goals were in the first place? So folks were giving feedback that didn't make sense in the context of the vision.

Now to be fair on the other side, where would you go to learn the vision? ... Right. There isn't anywhere you can go. So people are providing feedback, but they haven't been enabled to provide constructive feedback.

E.g., to analogize (which you know I love to do :) ) - imagine I'm setting out to open up a cute little neighborhood bakery that sells pies, cakes, and cookies. I told my friends I am opening up a shop that deals with food, but I wasn't specific in telling them my vision for it was to be a cute little bakery. So they give me feedback, but they are telling me things like I need to open up a bar with mixed drinks, and I need to serve pizza and Indian curries as well, and I need to have cloth napkins and a belly dancer and play country music. It doesn't make sense for me to then open up a cute little bake shop with a bar and a belly dancer - but if it turns out a bar with a belly dancer is a good idea and there's a market demand for it, maybe I could open up a different shop to attract those customers.

--

You're definitely pointing out problems though I think we all agree area problems. Some of us in Fedora have been trying to backtrack a little bit / extrapolate how we do this - the right way - with the Board's target user identification and user research [1] initiative, which we are and will be continuing to discuss openly and drive community input into - exactly the way you said these things should be done.

Actually, we're running stakeholder interviews [2] right now to help inform our target audience and how we tackle issues like these - and we don't have anyone identified from the Ambassadors group to interview yet. Would you be willing to be interviewed to give an Ambassadors' point of view to the discussion?

~m

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Research_Plan [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Research_Plan#Stakeholders

On 12/03/2009 08:52 PM, Máirín Duffy wrote:

E.g., to analogize (which you know I love to do :) ) - imagine I'm setting out to open up a cute little neighborhood bakery that sells pies, cakes, and cookies. I told my friends I am opening up a shop that deals with food, but I wasn't specific in telling them my vision for it was to be a cute little bakery. So they give me feedback, but they are telling me things like I need to open up a bar with mixed drinks, and I need to serve pizza and Indian curries as well, and I need to have cloth napkins and a belly dancer and play country music. It doesn't make sense for me to then open up a cute little bake shop with a bar and a belly dancer - but if it turns out a bar with a belly dancer is a good idea and there's a market demand for it, maybe I could open up a different shop to attract those customers.

Playing with analogies seems fun (as long as they are not car analogies :D), let me try to play along: your little food shop is the main income source for your family and people in your family come to you saying: we live in a health conscious neighborhood, if you continue selling hamburgers nobody will buy it and you will go bankrupt, go for salads instead. Of course you can hold on your idea, hoping the cheap, greasy food will find enough customers (I don't know, maybe truckers passing by, but no loyal, returning customers) but your decision will have effects over your entire family (remember, it was their main income source), so probably having an agreement may be wise.

Or we can talk about your cute little neighborhood bakery selling pies, cakes, and cookies. Supposedly a big chain opened a fast-food across the street and is selling in droves. Jealous of their profitability and wanting more money and customers, your decide to change your business and go also fast-food. Your existing, loyal, returning customers, who became your friends, tell you they don't like fast-food, they come to your shop for the quality and the atmosphere and also point there is no much sense in having two fast-food shops so close to each other. Sure, you can try and go for profit alone, you can stay only with your friends or you can try to find a middle ground.