Hi everyone,
Here is a little about me.
My name is Matthew Whittle and I currently work as a senior application developer at VSP (Vision Service Plan) - it is eye insurance. I have a lovely wife and no kids (yet!). We live in Sacramento California in the US and I heard about this project through someone at JBoss at the JavaOne conference in San Francisco. At my current work I develop backend services for our membership using Java and Websphere and for fun I develop games for the iPhone (I have about 8 out now). I have been using Fedora at home for about 5 years now.
I joined this group because I have a desire to build a 3D operating system. By tomorrow. Just kidding. Yes I know that is a huge task but I thought I could start small by making a 3D desktop background... or maybe I should start even smaller. But at least you know my short and long term goals.
My IRC handle I believe is MattWhCaUs (it is the nickname I used)
Cool beans - looking forward to hearing from y'all.
Cheers,
Matthew Whittle
Oh, welcome! Glad to see you here. I would like to know a little more about your project of making a 3D desktop...
Regards, Lailah
El jue, 11-10-2012 a las 09:59 -0600, Matt Whittle escribió:
Hi everyone,
Here is a little about me.
My name is Matthew Whittle and I currently work as a senior application developer at VSP (Vision Service Plan) - it is eye insurance. I have a lovely wife and no kids (yet!). We live in Sacramento California in the US and I heard about this project through someone at JBoss at the JavaOne conference in San Francisco. At my current work I develop backend services for our membership using Java and Websphere and for fun I develop games for the iPhone (I have about 8 out now). I have been using Fedora at home for about 5 years now.
I joined this group because I have a desire to build a 3D operating system. By tomorrow. Just kidding. Yes I know that is a huge task but I thought I could start small by making a 3D desktop background... or maybe I should start even smaller. But at least you know my short and long term goals.
My IRC handle I believe is MattWhCaUs (it is the nickname I used)
Cool beans - looking forward to hearing from y'all.
Cheers,
Matthew Whittle
design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Hi Lailah!
Thanks for greeting me
Here is the grand scheme of things...
What do you mean "3D operating system"? Imagine playing Quake. You move from room to room in a 3D environment. The rooms are gorgeous and have a large bay window with an ocean view. In one room you check your email. In another you write a document. In another you create some graphics. You move from room to room instead of moving windows around.
Would there be menus? There would be no menu bars. If you want to do something, you would use a tool to do it. Just like in video games you have a set of tools that help you get through the game, in this 3D operating system you have a set of tools that help you do your work.
How would you copy and paste? Just like in games where you pick things up, there would be a hand tool you would use to copy things by grabbing them with your hand. Then you would see what is copied in the hand at the bottom of the screen. Wherever you put it, there it "pastes".
So how would I copy and paste things between my email and a text document if they are in different rooms? When reading your email, you would copy whatever section you want to put into the text document and walk over to the text document and plop it down.
What if I want to drag and drop? There would be a tool for that too. The tool would be the "drag and drop" tool. It would have a left side and a right side. When it is on left, you click where you want to drag from or to, and then on the right you click the other. When you are ready it would present the left and right to you and you can perform your drag and drop from one side to the other.
What if I want to copy multiple items? There would be a tool for that too. It would be the bag tool. If you "copy" something by picking it up into your hand, you can place it into a bag. It at that point would be persisted to the hard drive. Then you can pull it out of the bag and put it wherever you'd like.
It sounds like there will be way too many tools. How will you make it easy for the user? You would initially start without any tools. You would have a home and near it there would be a marketplace. In the marketplace you can "buy" whatever tools you thing you'd use. "Buy" is in quotes because all the tools are free - all the ones that come with the operating system. Also, you can build your house any way you'd like. So if you never use a certain application, you need not create a room that has it in there. Thus you can customize your house to be whatever way you want and your set of tools as well.
Customization causes issues when the user of one system becomes familiar with the way they are doing things and tries to use another system which is completely different. How will you mitigate this issue? Your house and toolset preferences can be stored into a file. That file can be put on a flash disk or on the web so that when you are on another computer, you can download that file. When you open it on another computer, it creates your home as a neighbor. When you enter that home, your toolbox and house settings will all match what you are used to on your own computer.
What happens if you have paid for an application on your home computer and it isn't available on a friend's computer? That room has the door locked and a message indicating why.
Would there be folders? There would be no folders. Each file would have an x,y,z coordinate. Instead of organizing things into folders, they would be organized by tags. Any file can have as many tags as it needs. Each tag would work like a column in a database. You can make up whatever tags you like. There then would also be no need for aliases or shortcuts.
How do you get two files with the same name? Files can have the same name because there would be no unique constraint on the name anywhere.
How would you replace a file? There would be a tool for that.
How would you delete a file? There would be a tool for that too.
How would you ftp a file? Ah! Well, there would be a tool for that!
But how would you put your file into the FTP? Pick it up with the hand tool, like a copy, and put it into FTP.
What about web browsing? Could you download firefox or google chrome? 2D applications would still work on the os. They would go on one wall in a room. Their menus would show up like menus and still work just like the 2D application you are used to. Each new window, however, would show up on a different wall in the room.
What happens if you run out of walls in your room? You have too many windows open. If you really do need more windows, you build a larger room that has more space for more windows.
But how will the 2D application install if the OS is so different? There's the beauty - the OS isn't so different. Everything Red Hat has is still there. You can even open up a terminal on a wall and access everything just like you can now.
How do 3D applications work differently than 2D? Because they are using openGL and mipmaps, zooming into and out of the application comes native with the os. Zooming in 2D applications will cause the pixilization common to 2D applications.
Wait - you said there would be no unique constraint on files and Red Hat has a unique constraint per folder. How will you get around that? The files in the 3D Operating System have a unique constraint on their x,y,z coordinate. Therefore, the x,y,z coordinate will be the folder name for which the file is placed. All files for the 3D Operating System will live in one folder aptly named 3D Operating System
How would you put the computer to sleep? There would be a room for that - with a bed.
What happens during a power failure? All the 2D applications would behave just like they do today. All the 3D applications, including the 3DOS, would remember their state.
How would a flash disk work? When a flash disk inserts, it would get added as a neighboring house.
How would you copy file between flash disks? There would be a copy tool which would make a copy of a file. When you walk it from one house to another, it would automatically delete it from the one hard drive and place it on the other.
How do you save a file? There would be a new file save dialog box which lets you name the file, tag the file, and drops it in the x,y,z space you are current at.
What other tools are there? There will be a teleport tool that will teleport you to whatever place you want it to. There will be home building tools that will you There will be a document finder that will help you locate your documents There will be document opener to open a document and transport you to the appropriate room
Wouldn't this be so new that people would have a hard time adjusting from other operating systems? Most people that play video games are already familiar with this type of operating system. They find it enjoyable.
So, the 3D background would just be a way to start small. I was thinking have an ocean and a sky and have it animated. It would stop animation if the CPU went too high or the computer went to sleep or if some other app wanted 3D full screen access. The background picture would have to be replaced with a GLCanvas. This of course would only be if they went to the desktop background control panel option and chose 3D background.
This was probably way too much information but better more than less?
Thanks!
Matt
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Lailah lailahfsf@gmail.com wrote:
**
Oh, welcome! Glad to see you here. I would like to know a little more about your project of making a 3D desktop...
*Regards,* *Lailah*
El jue, 11-10-2012 a las 09:59 -0600, Matt Whittle escribió:
Hi everyone,
Here is a little about me.
My name is Matthew Whittle and I currently work as a senior application developer at VSP (Vision Service Plan) - it is eye insurance. I have a lovely wife and no kids (yet!). We live in Sacramento California in the US and I heard about this project through someone at JBoss at the JavaOne conference in San Francisco. At my current work I develop backend services for our membership using Java and Websphere and for fun I develop games for the iPhone (I have about 8 out now). I have been using Fedora at home for about 5 years now.
I joined this group because I have a desire to build a 3D operating system. By tomorrow. Just kidding. Yes I know that is a huge task but I thought I could start small by making a 3D desktop background... or maybe I should start even smaller. But at least you know my short and long term goals.
My IRC handle I believe is MattWhCaUs (it is the nickname I used)
Cool beans - looking forward to hearing from y'all.
Cheers,
Matthew Whittle
design-team mailing listdesign-team@lists.fedoraproject.orghttps://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Hello Matt!
I found interesting your project. Is like an Operative System for Gamers, isn't it? I think it will need big and fast, powerful, computers to use it. But anyway, it will be funny to use it. Just curious... in which SO you will base it? Or you will make it from scratch? I would like to know. :-)
Regards, Lailah
El vie, 12-10-2012 a las 11:15 -0600, Matt Whittle escribió:
Hi Lailah!
Thanks for greeting me
Here is the grand scheme of things...
What do you mean "3D operating system"? Imagine playing Quake. You move from room to room in a 3D environment. The rooms are gorgeous and have a large bay window with an ocean view. In one room you check your email. In another you write a document. In another you create some graphics. You move from room to room instead of moving windows around.
Would there be menus? There would be no menu bars. If you want to do something, you would use a tool to do it. Just like in video games you have a set of tools that help you get through the game, in this 3D operating system you have a set of tools that help you do your work.
How would you copy and paste? Just like in games where you pick things up, there would be a hand tool you would use to copy things by grabbing them with your hand. Then you would see what is copied in the hand at the bottom of the screen. Wherever you put it, there it "pastes".
So how would I copy and paste things between my email and a text document if they are in different rooms? When reading your email, you would copy whatever section you want to put into the text document and walk over to the text document and plop it down.
What if I want to drag and drop? There would be a tool for that too. The tool would be the "drag and drop" tool. It would have a left side and a right side. When it is on left, you click where you want to drag from or to, and then on the right you click the other. When you are ready it would present the left and right to you and you can perform your drag and drop from one side to the other.
What if I want to copy multiple items? There would be a tool for that too. It would be the bag tool. If you "copy" something by picking it up into your hand, you can place it into a bag. It at that point would be persisted to the hard drive. Then you can pull it out of the bag and put it wherever you'd like.
It sounds like there will be way too many tools. How will you make it easy for the user? You would initially start without any tools. You would have a home and near it there would be a marketplace. In the marketplace you can "buy" whatever tools you thing you'd use. "Buy" is in quotes because all the tools are free - all the ones that come with the operating system. Also, you can build your house any way you'd like. So if you never use a certain application, you need not create a room that has it in there. Thus you can customize your house to be whatever way you want and your set of tools as well.
Customization causes issues when the user of one system becomes familiar with the way they are doing things and tries to use another system which is completely different. How will you mitigate this issue? Your house and toolset preferences can be stored into a file. That file can be put on a flash disk or on the web so that when you are on another computer, you can download that file. When you open it on another computer, it creates your home as a neighbor. When you enter that home, your toolbox and house settings will all match what you are used to on your own computer.
What happens if you have paid for an application on your home computer and it isn't available on a friend's computer? That room has the door locked and a message indicating why.
Would there be folders? There would be no folders. Each file would have an x,y,z coordinate. Instead of organizing things into folders, they would be organized by tags. Any file can have as many tags as it needs. Each tag would work like a column in a database. You can make up whatever tags you like. There then would also be no need for aliases or shortcuts.
How do you get two files with the same name? Files can have the same name because there would be no unique constraint on the name anywhere.
How would you replace a file? There would be a tool for that.
How would you delete a file? There would be a tool for that too.
How would you ftp a file? Ah! Well, there would be a tool for that!
But how would you put your file into the FTP? Pick it up with the hand tool, like a copy, and put it into FTP.
What about web browsing? Could you download firefox or google chrome? 2D applications would still work on the os. They would go on one wall in a room. Their menus would show up like menus and still work just like the 2D application you are used to. Each new window, however, would show up on a different wall in the room.
What happens if you run out of walls in your room? You have too many windows open. If you really do need more windows, you build a larger room that has more space for more windows.
But how will the 2D application install if the OS is so different? There's the beauty - the OS isn't so different. Everything Red Hat has is still there. You can even open up a terminal on a wall and access everything just like you can now.
How do 3D applications work differently than 2D? Because they are using openGL and mipmaps, zooming into and out of the application comes native with the os. Zooming in 2D applications will cause the pixilization common to 2D applications.
Wait - you said there would be no unique constraint on files and Red Hat has a unique constraint per folder. How will you get around that? The files in the 3D Operating System have a unique constraint on their x,y,z coordinate. Therefore, the x,y,z coordinate will be the folder name for which the file is placed. All files for the 3D Operating System will live in one folder aptly named 3D Operating System
How would you put the computer to sleep? There would be a room for that - with a bed.
What happens during a power failure? All the 2D applications would behave just like they do today. All the 3D applications, including the 3DOS, would remember their state.
How would a flash disk work? When a flash disk inserts, it would get added as a neighboring house.
How would you copy file between flash disks? There would be a copy tool which would make a copy of a file. When you walk it from one house to another, it would automatically delete it from the one hard drive and place it on the other.
How do you save a file? There would be a new file save dialog box which lets you name the file, tag the file, and drops it in the x,y,z space you are current at.
What other tools are there? There will be a teleport tool that will teleport you to whatever place you want it to. There will be home building tools that will you There will be a document finder that will help you locate your documents There will be document opener to open a document and transport you to the appropriate room
Wouldn't this be so new that people would have a hard time adjusting from other operating systems? Most people that play video games are already familiar with this type of operating system. They find it enjoyable.
So, the 3D background would just be a way to start small. I was thinking have an ocean and a sky and have it animated. It would stop animation if the CPU went too high or the computer went to sleep or if some other app wanted 3D full screen access. The background picture would have to be replaced with a GLCanvas. This of course would only be if they went to the desktop background control panel option and chose 3D background.
This was probably way too much information but better more than less?
Thanks!
Matt
Hi Lailah,
Yes, it would be like an OS for gamers - but I can imagine in time that the normal person would even find it more intuitive and productive. Big and fast powerful computers will make it look gorgeous but you can have it look less gorgeous to run on less powerful computers. Forgive my ignorance, what is an SO? My idea of how to make this happen would be to make a 3D background in Fedora that people could elect to use as their background. Then enhance that background so that you can move the clouds around with the mouse (add mouse events). Then make it so you can zoom in and out with key events. Then build the first tool - the ability to make a wall. Then build the second. And the OS would be built one tool at a time. That way you can use the agile methodology to deliver early and deliver often and there is no large learning curve of being forced to learn a new OS and if you like the way your old OS works, you could just not elect to use the 3D background.
...And since this really is a ton of work and I'd be doing it on my spare time, if Fedora ever sees great value in it and likes what I produce, maybe they'd hire me at some point... :)
Anyway, I'm on the infrastructure team too. I've been in contact with Martin Sourada who suggested I join the design team. I guess what I would like to do is make sure Fedora likes the idea and the approach and if they have any suggestions before I begin building it. I imagine that the design team could add a great bit of experience and value into the finished product. A team always builds a better product than an individual.
Thanks,
Matthew Whittle
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Lailah lailahfsf@gmail.com wrote:
**
Hello Matt!
I found interesting your project. Is like an OperativeSystem for Gamers, isn't it? I think it will need big and fast, powerful, computers to use it. But anyway, it will be funny to use it. Just curious... in which SO you will base it? Or you will make it from scratch? I would like to know. [image: :-)]
*Regards,* *Lailah*
El vie, 12-10-2012 a las 11:15 -0600, Matt Whittle escribió:
Hi Lailah!
Thanks for greeting me
Here is the grand scheme of things...
What do you mean "3D operating system"? Imagine playing Quake. You move from room to room in a 3D environment. The rooms are gorgeous and have a large bay window with an ocean view. In one room you check your email. In another you write a document. In another you create some graphics. You move from room to room instead of moving windows around.
Would there be menus? There would be no menu bars. If you want to do something, you would use a tool to do it. Just like in video games you have a set of tools that help you get through the game, in this 3D operating system you have a set of tools that help you do your work.
How would you copy and paste? Just like in games where you pick things up, there would be a hand tool you would use to copy things by grabbing them with your hand. Then you would see what is copied in the hand at the bottom of the screen. Wherever you put it, there it "pastes".
So how would I copy and paste things between my email and a text document if they are in different rooms? When reading your email, you would copy whatever section you want to put into the text document and walk over to the text document and plop it down.
What if I want to drag and drop? There would be a tool for that too. The tool would be the "drag and drop" tool. It would have a left side and a right side. When it is on left, you click where you want to drag from or to, and then on the right you click the other. When you are ready it would present the left and right to you and you can perform your drag and drop from one side to the other.
What if I want to copy multiple items? There would be a tool for that too. It would be the bag tool. If you "copy" something by picking it up into your hand, you can place it into a bag. It at that point would be persisted to the hard drive. Then you can pull it out of the bag and put it wherever you'd like.
It sounds like there will be way too many tools. How will you make it easy for the user? You would initially start without any tools. You would have a home and near it there would be a marketplace. In the marketplace you can "buy" whatever tools you thing you'd use. "Buy" is in quotes because all the tools are free - all the ones that come with the operating system. Also, you can build your house any way you'd like. So if you never use a certain application, you need not create a room that has it in there. Thus you can customize your house to be whatever way you want and your set of tools as well.
Customization causes issues when the user of one system becomes familiar with the way they are doing things and tries to use another system which is completely different. How will you mitigate this issue? Your house and toolset preferences can be stored into a file. That file can be put on a flash disk or on the web so that when you are on another computer, you can download that file. When you open it on another computer, it creates your home as a neighbor. When you enter that home, your toolbox and house settings will all match what you are used to on your own computer.
What happens if you have paid for an application on your home computer and it isn't available on a friend's computer? That room has the door locked and a message indicating why.
Would there be folders? There would be no folders. Each file would have an x,y,z coordinate. Instead of organizing things into folders, they would be organized by tags. Any file can have as many tags as it needs. Each tag would work like a column in a database. You can make up whatever tags you like. There then would also be no need for aliases or shortcuts.
How do you get two files with the same name? Files can have the same name because there would be no unique constraint on the name anywhere.
How would you replace a file? There would be a tool for that.
How would you delete a file? There would be a tool for that too.
How would you ftp a file? Ah! Well, there would be a tool for that!
But how would you put your file into the FTP? Pick it up with the hand tool, like a copy, and put it into FTP.
What about web browsing? Could you download firefox or google chrome? 2D applications would still work on the os. They would go on one wall in a room. Their menus would show up like menus and still work just like the 2D application you are used to. Each new window, however, would show up on a different wall in the room.
What happens if you run out of walls in your room? You have too many windows open. If you really do need more windows, you build a larger room that has more space for more windows.
But how will the 2D application install if the OS is so different? There's the beauty - the OS isn't so different. Everything Red Hat has is still there. You can even open up a terminal on a wall and access everything just like you can now.
How do 3D applications work differently than 2D? Because they are using openGL and mipmaps, zooming into and out of the application comes native with the os. Zooming in 2D applications will cause the pixilization common to 2D applications.
Wait - you said there would be no unique constraint on files and Red Hat has a unique constraint per folder. How will you get around that? The files in the 3D Operating System have a unique constraint on their x,y,z coordinate. Therefore, the x,y,z coordinate will be the folder name for which the file is placed. All files for the 3D Operating System will live in one folder aptly named 3D Operating System
How would you put the computer to sleep? There would be a room for that - with a bed.
What happens during a power failure? All the 2D applications would behave just like they do today. All the 3D applications, including the 3DOS, would remember their state.
How would a flash disk work? When a flash disk inserts, it would get added as a neighboring house.
How would you copy file between flash disks? There would be a copy tool which would make a copy of a file. When you walk it from one house to another, it would automatically delete it from the one hard drive and place it on the other.
How do you save a file? There would be a new file save dialog box which lets you name the file, tag the file, and drops it in the x,y,z space you are current at.
What other tools are there? There will be a teleport tool that will teleport you to whatever place you want it to. There will be home building tools that will you There will be a document finder that will help you locate your documents There will be document opener to open a document and transport you to the appropriate room
Wouldn't this be so new that people would have a hard time adjusting from other operating systems? Most people that play video games are already familiar with this type of operating system. They find it enjoyable.
So, the 3D background would just be a way to start small. I was thinking have an ocean and a sky and have it animated. It would stop animation if the CPU went too high or the computer went to sleep or if some other app wanted 3D full screen access. The background picture would have to be replaced with a GLCanvas. This of course would only be if they went to the desktop background control panel option and chose 3D background.
This was probably way too much information but better more than less?
Thanks!
Matt
design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
On 10/15/2012 11:32 PM, Matt Whittle wrote:
Anyway, I'm on the infrastructure team too. I've been in contact with Martin Sourada who suggested I join the design team. I guess what I would like to do is make sure Fedora likes the idea and the approach and if they have any suggestions before I begin building it. I imagine that the design team could add a great bit of experience and value into the finished product. A team always builds a better product than an individual.
It was tried before, then the computers did only 2D graphics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZegWedG-jk4
It was a massive failure then, it would probably be the same now.
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 11:30:00AM +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
It was tried before, then the computers did only 2D graphics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZegWedG-jk4
Actually, in fact, someone did the whole 3D-game-as-user-interface thing. Took me a bit to find it because I remembered it as based on Castle Wolfenstein, but it was Doom:
"Doom as an Interface for Process Management" http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/chi/chi.html
Hi Matthew and Nicu,
Thanks for sharing some of the attempts from before. Here are some more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZcJOZC38iQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jhoWsHwU7w
I feel like I need to defend the idea. This idea is unlike all those. It is most like the doom one, but the doom one was only an interface for a process manager and it seems you could get the job done quicker with a normal window. It is unlike the bob one because it isn't a complete break from the feel of the previous operating system. It is unlike the 3D os in my first link because the windows are laid out in 3D instead of 2D and you move your character around instead of moving the windows around. It is unlike bumptop because it isn't one 3D room. It is a 3D house.
If the idea makes organization of windows easier and navigation more pleasant and it increases productivity, the chance of failure will be less. While providing lots of eye candy, the goal of this is to create a spacial user interface. Since humans naturally are spacial (remembering where things are in 3D space) and sorted lists are a little less natural, designing your own house and walking into the GIMP room is more relaxing on the brain then hunting for GIMP in a sorted list. And then if you need to switch from GIMP to Firefox, you just walk out of the GIMP room into the firefox room - which is also less taxing on the brain then locating the firefox window you were on before in the list of open windows in one of your workspaces. Also, if it is delivered in small chunks and each chunk provides something cool, then even if it eventually fails, a lot of progress is made that you can keep. What I mean is, after creating a 3D background we decide against it, well then at least we got a 3D background out of it.
Innovation always has some risk in it but it always has even greater reward. How about we just start with creating a 3D background and see what goes from there? We'll get input from users really fast if they like it or not, and some of that early input might help shape the finished outcome toward the better.
Thanks,
Matthew Whittle
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 6:05 AM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.orgwrote:
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 11:30:00AM +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
It was tried before, then the computers did only 2D graphics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZegWedG-jk4
Actually, in fact, someone did the whole 3D-game-as-user-interface thing. Took me a bit to find it because I remembered it as based on Castle Wolfenstein, but it was Doom:
"Doom as an Interface for Process Management" http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/chi/chi.html
-- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ < mattdm@fedoraproject.org> _______________________________________________ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
On 10/17/2012 04:35 AM, Matt Whittle wrote:
If the idea makes organization of windows easier and navigation more pleasant and it increases productivity, the chance of failure will be less. While providing lots of eye candy, the goal of this is to create a spacial user interface. Since humans naturally are spacial (remembering where things are in 3D space) and sorted lists are a little less natural, designing your own house and walking into the GIMP room is more relaxing on the brain then hunting for GIMP in a sorted list. And then if you need to switch from GIMP to Firefox, you just walk out of the GIMP room into the firefox room - which is also less taxing on the brain then locating the firefox window you were on before in the list of open windows in one of your workspaces. Also, if it is delivered in small chunks and each chunk provides something cool, then even if it eventually fails, a lot of progress is made that you can keep. What I mean is, after creating a 3D background we decide against it, well then at least we got a 3D background out of it.
That's the top failure: if I want to start Firefox, I want it *now*, with a click of the mouse, not walk from room to room and wait. Also, what if I need both GIMP and Firefox at the same time? say I read a GIMP tutorial and want to try it, or I design a web layout and have to edit and see the page at the same time. I am forced to wander around rooms? An OS (well, a desktop system, which is what we are talking about) should be unobtrusive and let the uses get the job done fast and easy.
Hi all,
Thanks, this is really good discussion.
Let's compare. Let's say I want to open an application - say the game Mines. In the current Fedora system, I would click on Activities, Applications, presumably Games, and then Mines. Before we go into how it would work in the new system, let's talk about the stress factors in play.
One large stress factor in using computers is finding an item in a list. Specifically, it is stressful to find an item in a large ordered list, even more stressful to find an item in a large unordered list, and most stressful to find an item in a large unordered list that keeps changing. It isn't stressful to find an item in a small list (roughly 5 or less items). The larger the list the more the stress. An example of course of an ordered list is the files in the documents folder. An example of an unordered list is the listing of menu items in the edit menu. An example of an unordered list that keeps changing is the order of the tabs of open firefox tabs. It is in "created" order, so when you shut down firefox completely and start reopening tabs, their order is now different.
Now, in the 3Dos. Assuming this is the first time you want to play Mines, you would build a wall to put Mines on. Here you are saying "When I want to play Mines, I will go to this room (presumably the game room) and look at this wall." Then you would select the application in a very similar fashion to how you select it today. Fedora did a very good job being "spacial". Humans are naturally spacial and enjoy it when things are in the same place the found it the last time. When you click on activities, a small relaxing list shows up. "Windows" and "Applications" could be considered another small relaxing list. The list of applications available to choose from them is large and changes order based on what applications are available but the filters on the right give you the ability to make it a small list, but that list of filters is also a larger ordered list, but when you have that many applications you really don't have an alternative and the way Fedora is doing it now doesn't need changing in my opinion. So you would select the application and it would open up on that wall.
Note, of course if the user thinks that they are not going to play Mines that often, there is nothing stopping them from not creating a wall and just using the Fedora user interface that they have been accustomed to. The Activities menu option would still be there and nothing prevents them from accessing it if they enjoy that better.
Ok so now let's say that our user enjoys Mines and wants to make a shortcut for it. In the current system they can put it on the top and make it so that in one click they are playing Mines. It is spacial because the shortcut is always in the same place. In the 3D system, in order to make it fast, there is the teleport tool. Using the teleport tool you would teleport yourself to whatever room / wall you chose. The teleport tool would be accessed either by clicking in a list or hotkey and then again by clicking in a list or hotkey they would teleport themselves to where they want to go.
Ok, you must be thinking, the current Fedora has this new 3D operating system beat by a long shot. One click is better than two, and the teleport tool takes two lists. Furthermore, if you have a teleport tool, why have a 3D os? Isn't the teleport tool just a glorified Alt-Tab?
The usefulness doesn't come until you have lots of shortcuts and lots of windows.
Imagine Firefox now. Currently, a user can choose 1 favorite to pop up when they open Firefox. What if someone has three favorites? Let's say they enjoy going to Email, Facebook, and Stocks. In 3D, they can put each of these windows on a wall in a room and have that room be the "Favorite websites" room. Each website is always on the same wall in the room. So the user knows that if they are looking at email, for example, then all they have to do is turn left and they are at facebook, and turn right and they are in Stocks, and it is that way every single time - because that is how they set up their room. Now let's say they want to surf the web. Perhaps they teleport into a "Surf the web" room they create so that they can open a bunch of windows in no particular order. Yet, as they are surfing the web, if they want to go back to their email, two hotkeys bring them there - teleport, email. Then it is turn left or right to get to facebook or stocks. Currently when people surf the web, if they have 10 open windows and 3 of them are their email, stocks and facebook, every time they want to switch tabs they have to look through an unordered changing list.
Now let's say that you have 15 favorite apps and want to put all those shortcuts somewhere. The user just created a big list for themselves. And ate up screen real estate. The ability to order those 15 apps in 3D space in several rooms is beautiful, especially when there are similarities between the apps. One could put Blender, Gimp and gThumb in one room. One could put PDF reader, and two Word Processors in one room. Whatever was convenient for the person. The speed increase comes when the brain can tell the hand how to switch apps without thinking because everything is spacially right where they left them.
The walls aren't so much different applications as they are different frequently used windows.
Again, someone is working on a project. They create a room and have all the necessary windows for that project open in that room. They shut down the computer, come back the next day, teleport to that room and everything is ordered just like they left it.
And if someone wants to take a tutorial while learning Gimp, they could create a "learning room" where one wall is Firefox and one is Gimp.
Wow okay I'm talking a lot. Thoughts?
Thanks,
Matt
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 12:56 AM, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.rowrote:
On 10/17/2012 04:35 AM, Matt Whittle wrote:
If the idea makes organization of windows easier and navigation more pleasant and it increases productivity, the chance of failure will be less. While providing lots of eye candy, the goal of this is to create a spacial user interface. Since humans naturally are spacial (remembering where things are in 3D space) and sorted lists are a little less natural, designing your own house and walking into the GIMP room is more relaxing on the brain then hunting for GIMP in a sorted list. And then if you need to switch from GIMP to Firefox, you just walk out of the GIMP room into the firefox room - which is also less taxing on the brain then locating the firefox window you were on before in the list of open windows in one of your workspaces. Also, if it is delivered in small chunks and each chunk provides something cool, then even if it eventually fails, a lot of progress is made that you can keep. What I mean is, after creating a 3D background we decide against it, well then at least we got a 3D background out of it.
That's the top failure: if I want to start Firefox, I want it *now*, with a click of the mouse, not walk from room to room and wait. Also, what if I need both GIMP and Firefox at the same time? say I read a GIMP tutorial and want to try it, or I design a web layout and have to edit and see the page at the same time. I am forced to wander around rooms? An OS (well, a desktop system, which is what we are talking about) should be unobtrusive and let the uses get the job done fast and easy.
-- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/ ______________________________**_________________ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.**fedoraproject.orgdesign-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/design-**teamhttps://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
On 10/18/2012 07:29 PM, Matt Whittle wrote:
Again, someone is working on a project. They create a room and have all the necessary windows for that project open in that room. They shut down the computer, come back the next day, teleport to that room and everything is ordered just like they left it.
And if someone wants to take a tutorial while learning Gimp, they could create a "learning room" where one wall is Firefox and one is Gimp.
Wow okay I'm talking a lot. Thoughts?
Just before reading your email I finished some work. I wrote an image editing tutorial (http://howto.nicubunu.ro/gimp-grid/ if you wonder) so I needed: - the image editor, to capture the screenshots; - the file manager, to move around and upload images and other files; - the text editor to write the tutorial and html code; - the web browser to check my progress and results. All of them while: - using the IRC window to chat with the person who asked for the tutorial; - keeping an eye on the email for important business priorities; - get some important *personal* updated from a family member over IM.
Please help me understand how a 3D game-like interface would make my work easier in such a scenario.
If your answer is: make a work-related room with all work apps on the walls or make a room for each possible work scenario, then you are back at your initial problem, long lists.
Your concept is more suited for something like a game console or a home media player, not for a general purpose desktop system.
Hi Nicu,
Awesome. Let's do this.
Let's start with computer startup. Currently in both systems (our current Fedora and 3D Fedora) there is nothing running.
First we boot up email. Chances are this is a favorite so in both systems it is easy to access. Then we boot up IRC. Chances are this is also a favorite. And since they are similar in nature (internet communication), lets say we put them in a room together in 3D Fedora. Let's say room we get to by choosing teleport-E. In Fedora 17, you can click on Activities and get a spacial list (even better than an ordered list) to switch between activities. In 3D Fedora you would turn right or turn left to switch between the two open applications.
Ok so then let's say you read an email request from someone asking for a tutorial. In Fedora 17, you go to Activities, you pick Desktop 2 because perhaps that is how you like to be organized, and you open Gimp and Image Editor (screen capturer). In 3D Fedora, you would teleport to a new room and open Gimp and Image Editor on two walls, or if you have that combo as a common programs, you would teleport to a room that has Gimp and Image Editor already together. Let's assume that is teleport-G.
So let's take a look at things so far. From computer startup, to get here, in Fedora 17, You click Activities, Evolution and then Activities, and perhaps locate the IRC app or go to Firefox. Then you switch to desktop 2 and go to Activities, Applications, Gimp and the Activities, Applications, Image Editor. In 3D Fedora, teleport-E gets you to email and IRC, teleport-G gets you to Gimp and Image Editor.
Now you capture the first screenshot. You want to move it to a project folder. In Fedora 17, let's say you open it in the Desktop 2. Let's say you want to move the file into a new project folder named GimpGrid. In Fedora 17, you open two windows, navigate to where you want to create the source folder and create it, navigate to the destination directory, position the windows on the screen to perform the drag or copy from one and paste into the other. In 3D Fedora, files exist in 3D space. When you save a file, it shows up on the floor. When you save it, you give it a filename and tags. You don't put it in a folder, you give it tags. Then with the File Locator tool, you can look a file up by its tags. So lets say the screenshot gets named "Screenshot.png". We could then tag it "GimpGrid."
Let's say then you want to check your email. In Fedora 17, you click on Activities, Desktop 1, Evolution. Then if you want to check IRC you click on Activities, then just IRC. In 3D Fedora, teleport-E gets you back to email every time. Turn right and you are at IRC. Teleport-G back to Gimp.
Now let's say we go back to Gimp and open the text editor to write the Tutorial. This gets opened in Desktop 2 in 17 and in the Gimp room in 3D. When you want to switch Activities in 17, you click Activities and get a small spacial list of 3 applications to select from. When you want to switch activies in 3D, you turn left or right to the walls nearby that contain Gimp or the Screenshot program.
Let's say then you find out you need to update a personal over IM. In 17, you go back to Desktop 1 and open IM. In 3D, you hit teleport-E and open IM on a new wall.
Let's say you are using Firefox for your IRC. You want to open Firefox to check the progress and results of the tutorial. You go to Desktop2 but you can't open Firefox to because it is open in Desktop 1. So you open a couple new tabs in Desktop 1. In 3D Fedora, you open Firefox on a wall in the teleport-G room.
Then let's say you are doing IRC, so you are on the IRC tab in Firefox. You switch to Gimp and do something. You switch to Text editor and write something. Now you want to switch to see the results. In 17, you click Activities, Desktop 1, Firefox. Then once you are in Firefox you select the tab that contains the results an hit refresh. In 3D Fedora, teleport-G, turn left and hit refresh.
Now really, we could create a 2D Fedora 18 that allows you to set up your Desktops with pre-opened programs, navigate to them with keyboard shortcuts, and switch between them with "turning left or right" and it would be just as functional as the 3D Fedora I am suggesting.
.....the 3D Fedora would just have a coolness factor to it that would draw people.... as long as it really was functional and fast.
I'm going to write another something about Gimp in a sec
Thanks!
Matt
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 3:48 AM, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.rowrote:
On 10/18/2012 07:29 PM, Matt Whittle wrote:
Again, someone is working on a project. They create a room and have all the necessary windows for that project open in that room. They shut down the computer, come back the next day, teleport to that room and everything is ordered just like they left it.
And if someone wants to take a tutorial while learning Gimp, they could create a "learning room" where one wall is Firefox and one is Gimp.
Wow okay I'm talking a lot. Thoughts?
Just before reading your email I finished some work. I wrote an image editing tutorial (http://howto.nicubunu.ro/**gimp-grid/http://howto.nicubunu.ro/gimp-grid/if you wonder) so I needed:
- the image editor, to capture the screenshots;
- the file manager, to move around and upload images and other files;
- the text editor to write the tutorial and html code;
- the web browser to check my progress and results.
All of them while:
- using the IRC window to chat with the person who asked for the tutorial;
- keeping an eye on the email for important business priorities;
- get some important *personal* updated from a family member over IM.
Please help me understand how a 3D game-like interface would make my work easier in such a scenario.
If your answer is: make a work-related room with all work apps on the walls or make a room for each possible work scenario, then you are back at your initial problem, long lists.
Your concept is more suited for something like a game console or a home media player, not for a general purpose desktop system.
-- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
______________________________**_________________ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.**fedoraproject.orgdesign-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/design-**teamhttps://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
Hi Lailah,
Ah! Totally fine. Mucho gusto! Vivi con tres hombres de Mexico, DF por un ano.
So the idea is to take Fedora 17 and make it so that the Desktop Background is animated. Then take that animated desktop background and make it so you can interact with it. Then I would imagine if users liked it, the most important feature requests would come from them.
To my previous email about what might happen after a Fedora 3D came out...
Gimp 3D
Let us entertain the idea that after the 3D Fedora came out, someone later decided that they did want to make a 3D Gimp. How would that function?
Let's try to take Nicu's example and show how it would work in Gimp 3D. http://howto.nicubunu.ro/gimp-grid/
Let's start with the toolbox to the left in the second picture on the how-to page. You have a panel of tools and options near the bottom. In the 3D world, tools are much like things you "pick up" in games. Similar to switching weapons in doom, you would switch tools in 3D Gimp. You would have your favorite 5 as one button hot keys and then for the others you would push one hotkey to bring up the tools list, select the tool you want to make active, and then use it as you normally would had you selected the tool on the left with the current Gimp. If you wanted to change its options, you would push the options hotkey and bring up the options panel, dismissing it when you were done.
Of course, you would have to have non-hotkey ways of handling switching tools and getting to options. So imagine in 3D Gimp if there was a hand near the bottom (like in 3D games it shows you what weapon you are currently using, it would show you there the active tool). So if you right clicked that hand, it could bring up the options menu. If you left clicked the hand, it could bring up the tools menu.
Let's talk about the pros and cons of this approach. The big pro is the screen real estate that is saved. The tools panel and options panel is brought up when needed and dismissed afterwards. The downside is number of clicks. If the tool is not one of your favorites, it takes two clicks to get there in 3D Gimp instead of one.
Now let's talk about the center window. On the top of the center window there is a menu bar. It has been a thing in operating systems to make it so that one task can be accomplished in a variety of ways. If you want to copy, you can use the menu, or the hotkey, or rightclick on the object to get a context sensitive menu, etc. However, this causes a larger learning curve. It also causes confusion between people when one person is trying to explain a series of steps to another and that one person's preference is different than the other's. For example, the one person might say "Now select Edit Copy" while the other person is used to hitting Ctrl+C. That small bit of confusion is a small time waster and small stress factor. But it can happen over and over.
Therefore, instead of a menu bar, they would become tools. If you wanted to copy, you would go to the copy/paste tool. Your hand would look like there was glue around it. When you copied something, a small image of the thing you copied would sit in your hand so you knew what was on the clipboard. It would also be good to persist that to disk so that it was still in your hand should the computer suddenly restart, but that is another topic. If you then wanted to, you could go to the bag tool and stuff the thing you copied into a bag so that you could bring it back later. This gives you the ability to copy multiple things. Then when you pasted, it would paste like normal. You could also do a drag from the hand at the bottom of the screen to paste. The item would remain in the hand just like a normal copy and paste unless you went to the tool options and told it you wanted it to drop what was copied on a paste.
What about View->Fullscreen? This would be like in some games, you select an item and it uses it immediately, this tool would be one that you would select and it immediately used without changing the active tool in the hand. These tools that have immediate usage would have some kind of indication (maybe a dotted border) that would designate it as an immediate use tool.
Pros and Cons. Pro again is saved screen real estate. The menu bar isn't needed. Pro again is less ways to do the same thing makes for faster learning and less stressful teaching. Con - that is a whole lot of tools. We're building a really big list. How do we manage this very large list of tools?
Just like in a video game the tools you are carrying might not be all the tools in the game, you would not carry every tool available. You would have a set of tools that you carry, a smaller set that have quick hotkeys, and if you ever needed a tool you weren't carrying, you would go to the tool market. The OS itself would have a market for OS tools. Gimp would have a Gimp market for Gimp tools. If you wanted a Gimp tool you weren't carrying, you would hotkey to the market, go find the tool, "buy it" although they'd all be free, and then you could use it. If it was a one time thing, you could then just drop the tool. If you liked it, you could keep the tool.
Let's say you just wanted to buy all the tools. You could organize them by hotkey layout. You could also flag them as things - such as View, Layout, Cool, Rarely Used or whatever you like. When you were in your tool menu, you could filter by those flags you created (or the flags that Gimp put on the tools). There would also be a search that you could type in to locate a tool quickly by name or flag. The main point is that the user is in charge of organizing their toolbox. And users who do it a lot will become very proficient with their setup.
So we go to the wall and pull up 3D Gimp. We see the picture and layers to the right. You want to go to New Guide. Let's say that is not a common tool so we go into the tools menu. Chances are there is a Guide filter we can use so we filter by guide. Then we choose the New Guide tool.
Let's stop there and discuss. The 3D Gimp way is 3 clicks. Tools, Guides, New Guide tool. There are two lists to look through - List of filters and List of guides. In the current Gimp, there are 2 clicks. One for Image and one to click on New Guide. There are three lists to look through, one list of menus(the bar that shows File... Edit... Select), one Image list and one Guides list. There is also one mouse positional menu context sensitive thing when you scroll the mouse down from Image to Guides. That scroll is actually more stressful than a click because the scroll is harder to control - you could accidentally move the mouse too far to the left, causing it to hit the Image menu again and losing your Guides menu, or you could be too fast and scroll to the right faster than the menu actually pops up.
Ok, then this tool would be immediate and a new dialog box would pop up just like you see with Horizontal and position 800. I imagine we'd keep the shortcut with the horizontal or vertical ruler.
To check Snap To Guides, here I would reorganize things a little. I (but I'm open to discussion on this) would make a View Options tool which would show the state of all the currently selected options and have the ability to change them. So I would say go to Tools, click a View filter, select the View Options tool, and verify my options and change if necessary. However, View Options might be a thing I use often so I would make a hotkey for it. Then I would use the hotkey, verify my options and go.
Similar to New Guide, Add Alpha channel would be a tool. Tools, perhaps Layer or Transparency, and Add Alpha Channel.
Duplicate Layer I use alot so I would have a hotkey for that - probably Shift-Ctrl-D (just like current Gimp has today). Otherwise I'd go to tools, Layer, Duplicate Layer.
Then you would select the rectangle tool but going Tools, perhaps Select, Rectangle tool. You would draw on the screen the same way current Gimp does it.
Invert by Tools, Select, Invert. Or Ctrl-I. Or since I use that a lot, I might know to select Tools, and the Invert tool might pop up where I put it last so I could just go Tools, Invert
Tools, Edit, Cut
... and I could go on but you get the idea. The organization of tools would be similar to how a 3D game organizes tools. Beyond that, everything is the same unless we want to talk about having multiple windows open.
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 3:48 AM, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
On 10/18/2012 07:29 PM, Matt Whittle wrote:
Again, someone is working on a project. They create a room and have all the necessary windows for that project open in that room. They shut down the computer, come back the next day, teleport to that room and everything is ordered just like they left it.
And if someone wants to take a tutorial while learning Gimp, they could create a "learning room" where one wall is Firefox and one is Gimp.
Wow okay I'm talking a lot. Thoughts?
Just before reading your email I finished some work. I wrote an image editing tutorial (http://howto.nicubunu.ro/gimp-grid/ if you wonder) so I needed: - the image editor, to capture the screenshots; - the file manager, to move around and upload images and other files; - the text editor to write the tutorial and html code; - the web browser to check my progress and results. All of them while: - using the IRC window to chat with the person who asked for the tutorial; - keeping an eye on the email for important business priorities; - get some important *personal* updated from a family member over IM.
Please help me understand how a 3D game-like interface would make my work easier in such a scenario.
If your answer is: make a work-related room with all work apps on the walls or make a room for each possible work scenario, then you are back at your initial problem, long lists.
Your concept is more suited for something like a game console or a home media player, not for a general purpose desktop system.
-- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
_______________________________________________ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Matt Whittle mattdwhittle@gmail.comwrote:
Hi Nicu,
Awesome. Let's do this.
Let's start with computer startup. Currently in both systems (our current Fedora and 3D Fedora) there is nothing running.
First we boot up email. Chances are this is a favorite so in both systems it is easy to access. Then we boot up IRC. Chances are this is also a favorite. And since they are similar in nature (internet communication), lets say we put them in a room together in 3D Fedora. Let's say room we get to by choosing teleport-E. In Fedora 17, you can click on Activities and get a spacial list (even better than an ordered list) to switch between activities. In 3D Fedora you would turn right or turn left to switch between the two open applications.
Ok so then let's say you read an email request from someone asking for a tutorial. In Fedora 17, you go to Activities, you pick Desktop 2 because perhaps that is how you like to be organized, and you open Gimp and Image Editor (screen capturer). In 3D Fedora, you would teleport to a new room and open Gimp and Image Editor on two walls, or if you have that combo as a common programs, you would teleport to a room that has Gimp and Image Editor already together. Let's assume that is teleport-G.
So let's take a look at things so far. From computer startup, to get here, in Fedora 17, You click Activities, Evolution and then Activities, and perhaps locate the IRC app or go to Firefox. Then you switch to desktop 2 and go to Activities, Applications, Gimp and the Activities, Applications, Image Editor. In 3D Fedora, teleport-E gets you to email and IRC, teleport-G gets you to Gimp and Image Editor.
Now you capture the first screenshot. You want to move it to a project folder. In Fedora 17, let's say you open it in the Desktop 2. Let's say you want to move the file into a new project folder named GimpGrid. In Fedora 17, you open two windows, navigate to where you want to create the source folder and create it, navigate to the destination directory, position the windows on the screen to perform the drag or copy from one and paste into the other. In 3D Fedora, files exist in 3D space. When you save a file, it shows up on the floor. When you save it, you give it a filename and tags. You don't put it in a folder, you give it tags. Then with the File Locator tool, you can look a file up by its tags. So lets say the screenshot gets named "Screenshot.png". We could then tag it "GimpGrid."
Let's say then you want to check your email. In Fedora 17, you click on Activities, Desktop 1, Evolution. Then if you want to check IRC you click on Activities, then just IRC. In 3D Fedora, teleport-E gets you back to email every time. Turn right and you are at IRC. Teleport-G back to Gimp.
Now let's say we go back to Gimp and open the text editor to write the Tutorial. This gets opened in Desktop 2 in 17 and in the Gimp room in 3D. When you want to switch Activities in 17, you click Activities and get a small spacial list of 3 applications to select from. When you want to switch activies in 3D, you turn left or right to the walls nearby that contain Gimp or the Screenshot program.
Let's say then you find out you need to update a personal over IM. In 17, you go back to Desktop 1 and open IM. In 3D, you hit teleport-E and open IM on a new wall.
Let's say you are using Firefox for your IRC. You want to open Firefox to check the progress and results of the tutorial. You go to Desktop2 but you can't open Firefox to because it is open in Desktop 1. So you open a couple new tabs in Desktop 1. In 3D Fedora, you open Firefox on a wall in the teleport-G room.
Then let's say you are doing IRC, so you are on the IRC tab in Firefox. You switch to Gimp and do something. You switch to Text editor and write something. Now you want to switch to see the results. In 17, you click Activities, Desktop 1, Firefox. Then once you are in Firefox you select the tab that contains the results an hit refresh. In 3D Fedora, teleport-G, turn left and hit refresh.
Now really, we could create a 2D Fedora 18 that allows you to set up your Desktops with pre-opened programs, navigate to them with keyboard shortcuts, and switch between them with "turning left or right" and it would be just as functional as the 3D Fedora I am suggesting.
.....the 3D Fedora would just have a coolness factor to it that would draw people.... as long as it really was functional and fast.
I'm going to write another something about Gimp in a sec
Thanks!
Matt
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 3:48 AM, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.rowrote:
On 10/18/2012 07:29 PM, Matt Whittle wrote:
Again, someone is working on a project. They create a room and have all the necessary windows for that project open in that room. They shut down the computer, come back the next day, teleport to that room and everything is ordered just like they left it.
And if someone wants to take a tutorial while learning Gimp, they could create a "learning room" where one wall is Firefox and one is Gimp.
Wow okay I'm talking a lot. Thoughts?
Just before reading your email I finished some work. I wrote an image editing tutorial (http://howto.nicubunu.ro/**gimp-grid/http://howto.nicubunu.ro/gimp-grid/if you wonder) so I needed:
- the image editor, to capture the screenshots;
- the file manager, to move around and upload images and other files;
- the text editor to write the tutorial and html code;
- the web browser to check my progress and results.
All of them while:
- using the IRC window to chat with the person who asked for the tutorial;
- keeping an eye on the email for important business priorities;
- get some important *personal* updated from a family member over IM.
Please help me understand how a 3D game-like interface would make my work easier in such a scenario.
If your answer is: make a work-related room with all work apps on the walls or make a room for each possible work scenario, then you are back at your initial problem, long lists.
Your concept is more suited for something like a game console or a home media player, not for a general purpose desktop system.
-- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/ photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
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Hi!
I'm sorry, is my fault. Is not "SO", is "OS". I'm a Spanish speaker and in my language we say "Sistema Operativo" (SO). It can be translated as "Operative System".
Regards, and sorry again Lailah
El lun, 15-10-2012 a las 14:32 -0600, Matt Whittle escribió:
Hi Lailah,
Yes, it would be like an OS for gamers - but I can imagine in time that the normal person would even find it more intuitive and productive. Big and fast powerful computers will make it look gorgeous but you can have it look less gorgeous to run on less powerful computers. Forgive my ignorance, what is an SO? My idea of how to make this happen would be to make a 3D background in Fedora that people could elect to use as their background. Then enhance that background so that you can move the clouds around with the mouse (add mouse events). Then make it so you can zoom in and out with key events. Then build the first tool - the ability to make a wall. Then build the second. And the OS would be built one tool at a time. That way you can use the agile methodology to deliver early and deliver often and there is no large learning curve of being forced to learn a new OS and if you like the way your old OS works, you could just not elect to use the 3D background.
...And since this really is a ton of work and I'd be doing it on my spare time, if Fedora ever sees great value in it and likes what I produce, maybe they'd hire me at some point... :)
Anyway, I'm on the infrastructure team too. I've been in contact with Martin Sourada who suggested I join the design team. I guess what I would like to do is make sure Fedora likes the idea and the approach and if they have any suggestions before I begin building it. I imagine that the design team could add a great bit of experience and value into the finished product. A team always builds a better product than an individual.
Thanks,
Matthew Whittle
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Lailah lailahfsf@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Matt! I found interesting your project. Is like an Operative System for Gamers, isn't it? I think it will need big and fast, powerful, computers to use it. But anyway, it will be funny to use it. Just curious... in which SO you will base it? Or you will make it from scratch? I would like to know. :-) Regards, Lailah El vie, 12-10-2012 a las 11:15 -0600, Matt Whittle escribió: > Hi Lailah! > > Thanks for greeting me > > Here is the grand scheme of things... > > What do you mean "3D operating system"? > Imagine playing Quake. You move from room to room in a > 3D environment. The rooms are gorgeous and have a large bay > window with an ocean view. In one room you check your > email. In another you write a document. In another you > create some graphics. You move from room to room instead of > moving windows around. > > Would there be menus? > There would be no menu bars. If you want to do > something, you would use a tool to do it. Just like in > video games you have a set of tools that help you get > through the game, in this 3D operating system you have a set > of tools that help you do your work. > > How would you copy and paste? > Just like in games where you pick things up, there would > be a hand tool you would use to copy things by grabbing them > with your hand. Then you would see what is copied in the > hand at the bottom of the screen. Wherever you put it, > there it "pastes". > > So how would I copy and paste things between my email and a > text document if they are in different rooms? > When reading your email, you would copy whatever section > you want to put into the text document and walk over to the > text document and plop it down. > > What if I want to drag and drop? > There would be a tool for that too. The tool would be > the "drag and drop" tool. It would have a left side and a > right side. When it is on left, you click where you want to > drag from or to, and then on the right you click the other. > When you are ready it would present the left and right to > you and you can perform your drag and drop from one side to > the other. > > What if I want to copy multiple items? > There would be a tool for that too. It would be the bag > tool. If you "copy" something by picking it up into your > hand, you can place it into a bag. It at that point would > be persisted to the hard drive. Then you can pull it out of > the bag and put it wherever you'd like. > > It sounds like there will be way too many tools. How will > you make it easy for the user? > You would initially start without any tools. You would > have a home and near it there would be a marketplace. In > the marketplace you can "buy" whatever tools you thing you'd > use. "Buy" is in quotes because all the tools are free - > all the ones that come with the operating system. Also, you > can build your house any way you'd like. So if you never > use a certain application, you need not create a room that > has it in there. Thus you can customize your house to be > whatever way you want and your set of tools as well. > > Customization causes issues when the user of one system > becomes familiar with the way they are doing things and > tries to use another system which is completely different. > How will you mitigate this issue? > Your house and toolset preferences can be stored into a > file. That file can be put on a flash disk or on the web so > that when you are on another computer, you can download that > file. When you open it on another computer, it creates your > home as a neighbor. When you enter that home, your toolbox > and house settings will all match what you are used to on > your own computer. > > What happens if you have paid for an application on your > home computer and it isn't available on a friend's computer? > That room has the door locked and a message indicating > why. > > Would there be folders? > There would be no folders. Each file would have an > x,y,z coordinate. Instead of organizing things into > folders, they would be organized by tags. Any file can have > as many tags as it needs. Each tag would work like a column > in a database. You can make up whatever tags you like. > There then would also be no need for aliases or shortcuts. > > How do you get two files with the same name? > Files can have the same name because there would be no > unique constraint on the name anywhere. > > How would you replace a file? > There would be a tool for that. > > How would you delete a file? > There would be a tool for that too. > > How would you ftp a file? > Ah! Well, there would be a tool for that! > > But how would you put your file into the FTP? > Pick it up with the hand tool, like a copy, and put it > into FTP. > > What about web browsing? Could you download firefox or > google chrome? > 2D applications would still work on the os. They would > go on one wall in a room. Their menus would show up like > menus and still work just like the 2D application you are > used to. Each new window, however, would show up on a > different wall in the room. > > What happens if you run out of walls in your room? > You have too many windows open. If you really do need > more windows, you build a larger room that has more space > for more windows. > > But how will the 2D application install if the OS is so > different? > There's the beauty - the OS isn't so different. > Everything Red Hat has is still there. You can even open up > a terminal on a wall and access everything just like you can > now. > > How do 3D applications work differently than 2D? > Because they are using openGL and mipmaps, zooming into > and out of the application comes native with the os. > Zooming in 2D applications will cause the pixilization > common to 2D applications. > > Wait - you said there would be no unique constraint on files > and Red Hat has a unique constraint per folder. How will > you get around that? > The files in the 3D Operating System have a unique > constraint on their x,y,z coordinate. Therefore, the x,y,z > coordinate will be the folder name for which the file is > placed. All files for the 3D Operating System will live in > one folder aptly named 3D Operating System > > How would you put the computer to sleep? > There would be a room for that - with a bed. > > What happens during a power failure? > All the 2D applications would behave just like they do > today. All the 3D applications, including the 3DOS, would > remember their state. > > How would a flash disk work? > When a flash disk inserts, it would get added as a > neighboring house. > > How would you copy file between flash disks? > There would be a copy tool which would make a copy of a > file. When you walk it from one house to another, it would > automatically delete it from the one hard drive and place it > on the other. > > How do you save a file? > There would be a new file save dialog box which lets you > name the file, tag the file, and drops it in the x,y,z space > you are current at. > > What other tools are there? > There will be a teleport tool that will teleport you to > whatever place you want it to. > There will be home building tools that will you > There will be a document finder that will help you > locate your documents > There will be document opener to open a document and > transport you to the appropriate room > > Wouldn't this be so new that people would have a hard time > adjusting from other operating systems? > Most people that play video games are already familiar > with this type of operating system. They find it > enjoyable. > > > > > > > > So, the 3D background would just be a way to start small. I > was thinking have an ocean and a sky and have it animated. > It would stop animation if the CPU went too high or the > computer went to sleep or if some other app wanted 3D full > screen access. The background picture would have to be > replaced with a GLCanvas. This of course would only be if > they went to the desktop background control panel option and > chose 3D background. > > > This was probably way too much information but better more > than less? > > Thanks! > > Matt > > _______________________________________________ design-team mailing list design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
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