fonts October 2011

fonts@lists.fedoraproject.org

4 participants
4 discussions

Re: VL Gothic odd characters
by Mark Alford 19 Oct '11

19 Oct '11

On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 11:27 +0900, Masahiro Sekiguchi wrote > ... the difference of the style you are talking is something like > traditional vs modern preferences. It appears that, for whatever > reason, the designer of VL Gothic chose the traditional style for > this particular one. However, I don't think it is a bug; it is a > matter of preferences. I never said it was a bug (I think someone else used that word). I just said it was an odd feature. Thanks to the Ministry of Education page that you showed me, I have now learned that these are examples of kanji where the printed form can differ from the accepted handwritten form. > > My teacher told me that if any student wrote these kanji in the > > VL-Gothic way, they would be corrected. > I'm not sure what your teacher actually said, but I believe you > misunderstood her explanation. What she said is consistent with what several Japanese people have told me. The VL-Gothic forms of soto/GAI, uchi/KA, etc, would be regarded as wrong if a student hand-wrote them. Teachers would correct them to the customary handwritten form. However, it seems that there is more freedom in printed fonts than in handwriting. There are some fonts that use the handwritten forms. But VL Gothic is not one of them. > I'm not sure what you want, but just as an example, you can download > a PDF copy of the latest (revised last year) Joyo kanji hyo (List of > regular use Kanji)... it is a part of definitive document of modern > Japanese orthography for legal/official uses, issued by the Prime > Minister. > http://www.bunka.go.jp/kokugo_nihongo/kokujikunrei_h221130.html This is a very useful resource, thank you. Indeed, my Japanese is nowhere near as good as your English, and I had to get help in reading it. At the top of p7 it talks about kanji where there is a difference between the handwritten form and the printed form (at least in some fonts). The list there includes the kanji I asked about (soto/GAI and uchi/KA) as well as some other well-known cases where printing can differ from handwriting, such as hito/JIN, i(ru)/JYU, hachi/YA. Actually a vaguely analogous situation exists in English orthography too. The handwritten form of lowercase "g" and "a" is the "single-storey" version, but many printed fonts use the "double-storey" version. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G However, it would be very unusual to use the double-storey versions of these letters in handwriting. Many thanks for your help. Mark

1 0

Re: VL Gothic odd characters (Mark Alford)
by Masahiro Sekiguchi 17 Oct '11

17 Oct '11

Mark, > All the native speakers of Japanese that I have consulted tell me that > these kanji look odd, definitely non-standard. They have never seen > "soto" or "uchi/KA" written this way in handwriting, and hardly ever in > books. I guess you consulted (relatively) young Japanese speakers only. My understanding is that the difference of the style you are talking is something like traditional vs modern preferences. It appears that, for whatever reason, the designer of VL Gothic chose the traditional style for this particular one. If you don't like his/her decision, that's fine. You can have your own opinion. However, I don't think it is a bug; it is a matter of preferences. > My teacher told me that if any student wrote these kanji in the > VL-Gothic way, they would be corrected. I'm not sure what your teacher actually said, but I believe you misunderstood her explanation. > Does anyone know of a computer kanji font that uses the standard form of > these characters, the form that is used in printing books and is taught > to students in Japan? I'm not sure what you want, but just as an example, you can download a PDF copy of the latest (revised last year) Joyo kanji hyo (List of regular use Kanji) from a web site of Bunka Cho (Agency for Cultural Affairs, a Special Body in Ministry of Education.) Although it is called "List", it is not just a list; it is a part of definitive document of modern Japanese orthography for legal/official uses, issued by the Prime Minister. The PDF is available on the following page: http://www.bunka.go.jp/kokugo_nihongo/kokujikunrei_h221130.html # The page is entirely in Japanese, and the "English" link on the upper # right doesn't lead you to a corresponding English page... On 24th page of the above PDF, you can see the character in question. You will find the document shows the shape you called a bug as the reference shape. Note that this PDF has all required fonts embedded, and the shape of characters you see is what authorities saw when they approved this publication. On 9th page, you can also see the same character under the item (6) (jsut above 3.) It is an example of the explanation beginning on the 7th page. I'm not sure you are able to read the explanation, but your teacher should. It essentially says the difference of the shapes you pointed out are both acceptable. In summary, the shape you called a bug is not a bug. It is perfectly acceptable. On the other hand, the shape you prefer is also acceptable, too. it is just a matter of preference. I myself has no strong preferences over any of these shapes for this particular character. I will not object if you get a majority support from Fedora community to modify the shape of this character. However, I don't agree to call it a bug. --- Masahiro Sekiguchi <seki(a)jp.fujitsu.com>

1 0

Re: VL Gothic odd characters
by Masahiro Sekiguchi 16 Oct '11

16 Oct '11

> > But in the vl-gothic that my Fedora 13 has, it looks different: the > > diagonal stroke in the right half of the character goes through the > > vertical bar, when it should only go to the right of the bar. > > How does it look in your vl-gothic font? > Aah, I see what you mean. In both characters the last stroke is placed > unusually. I'm not sure if it's a bug or feature though, the IPA fonts > have it also this way (both Gothic and Mincho style). Might be worth > asking some actual Japanese whether it's wrong or acceptable > stylisation. It's a design thing. Both shapes are perfectly fine. As long as the rasterized image reflects the designer's intention, it is not a bug. --- Masahiro Sekiguchi <seki(a)jp.fujitsu.com>

3 2

VL Gothic odd characters
by Mark Alford 13 Oct '11

13 Oct '11

A couple of characters in my VL Gothic don't look right. I have vlgothic-fonts-20110414 under Fedora 13. The odd-looking characters are 外家 Where is the right place to discuss this?

2 3

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

fonts October 2011