Well, we've got our first complaint about the fact that this is a volunteer position:
https://twitter.com/FeyNudibranch/status/616283167700332545
Thoughts on how we should respond?
My initial thought is to make sure she realizes it's for Fedora - not Red Hat.
Does Fedora pay anyone or are all roles volunteer?
I know Red Hat hires some people to work on Fedora - but does Fedora itself hire anyone?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tyler Golden" tgolden@redhat.com To: diversity@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2015 3:15:52 PM Subject: First complaint
Well, we've got our first complaint about the fact that this is a volunteer position:
https://twitter.com/FeyNudibranch/status/616283167700332545
Thoughts on how we should respond?
Hello all.
The complete approach, the way the skills and task were written, are done as is it would be a paid position, yet it's not. I would recommend just answer "It's a communitary position as every other at Fedora" and not mention RedHat or make any comparison at all.
As someone with 10 years of community work with Fedora, I would highly recommend just talk about the "helping" part and that Fedora is trying to focus more on those who need more advice and help, instead making this another flame about "why does people have to work for free".
2015-07-02 8:45 GMT-04:30 Tyler Golden tgolden@redhat.com:
Well, we've got our first complaint about the fact that this is a volunteer position:
https://twitter.com/FeyNudibranch/status/616283167700332545
Thoughts on how we should respond?
-- Best Regards,
Tyler Golden Manager, Talent Recruiting Products & Technology Red Hat 420.532.294.380 office 420.777.788.783 mobile tgolden@redhat.com www.redhat.com
Interested in a career at Red Hat?
http://jobs.redhat.com/?utm_source=sigemail&utm_campaign=Tyler_Siprova
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Red-Hat-Jobs/122993201088807 http://twitter.com/RedHatJobs http://www.linkedin.com/company/red-hat/careers?goback=.cps_1287089996000_1
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On Thu, Jul 02, 2015 at 09:15:52AM -0400, Tyler Golden wrote:
Well, we've got our first complaint about the fact that this is a volunteer position: https://twitter.com/FeyNudibranch/status/616283167700332545 Thoughts on how we should respond?
My response would be something like:
Fedora is a community project and does not have a budget for _any_ positions. Red Hat sponsors some people to work on Fedora, but this is a community initiative and we didn't want to wait on the possibility of finding sponsorship. I recognize that it severely limits the pool of people able to help, but that seemed better than no such thing at all. Many of us who work for Red Hat are working on diversity from a company perspective as well, but that's not directly related, and again, we didn't want to block on that.
That's pretty long for a tweet, though. :)
I agree with Maria and Matthew - it's with Fedora, and Fedora itself has no budget since it's a community-based distribution, similar to the budget for Debian. She seems to be confusing Red Hat with Fedora here, probably because the position was posted by employees of Red Hat - but looking at the tweet it clearly states "The @fedora community is looking for a Diversity & Inclusion Advisor", so I'm not sure where the confusion sits.
Spencer Hunley http://about.me/spencerhunley (816) 866-0847
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Thu, Jul 02, 2015 at 09:15:52AM -0400, Tyler Golden wrote:
Well, we've got our first complaint about the fact that this is a
volunteer position:
https://twitter.com/FeyNudibranch/status/616283167700332545 Thoughts on how we should respond?
My response would be something like:
Fedora is a community project and does not have a budget for _any_ positions. Red Hat sponsors some people to work on Fedora, but this is a community initiative and we didn't want to wait on the possibility of finding sponsorship. I recognize that it severely limits the pool of people able to help, but that seemed better than no such thing at all. Many of us who work for Red Hat are working on diversity from a company perspective as well, but that's not directly related, and again, we didn't want to block on that.
That's pretty long for a tweet, though. :)
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@lists.fedoraproject.org https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
On 07/02/2015 11:18 AM, Spencer Hunley wrote:
I agree with Maria and Matthew - it's with Fedora, and Fedora itself has no budget since it's a community-based distribution, similar to the budget for Debian. She seems to be confusing Red Hat with Fedora here, probably because the position was posted by employees of Red Hat - but looking at the tweet it clearly states "The @fedora community is looking for a Diversity & Inclusion Advisor", so I'm not sure where the confusion sits.
I think the confusion comes from it looking like a real paid job description - I don't think we've ever actual done that before for an unpaid Fedora position.
Reading the tweet https://twitter.com/FeyNudibranch/status/616283167700332545
She's rehashing a well-worn activist trope about volunteerism with full disregard for the fact that this is an *open source* project and the very nature of open source is the underpinning of a large base of volunteers. If anything, actually outlining a position and granting authority to a non-technical volunteer is a lot more than 99.999% FLOSS volunteers get to work with when starting out...
So I'd respond with something to point out that it's an open source project and the very nature of such projects, eg
"This is not a generic tech job. This is an advisory role for an open source community, communities whose underpinnings rely on volunteerism (see https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=volunteer+%22open+source%22&a...)"
~m
On 07/02/2015 11:32 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
"This is not a generic tech job. This is an advisory role for an open source community, communities whose underpinnings rely on volunteerism (see https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=volunteer+%22open+source%22&a...)"
Might be worth also pointing out that many volunteer positions of authority in Fedora are elected (eg FESCo, some council seats, etc) but this is one of those rare instances we felt appointment was more appropriate.
~m
I would underscore that this is a position on the Fedora Council, which is part of Fedora community governance.
Reliance on volunteering or unpaid work is one of the reasons there are fewer people from minority backgrounds, who have less leisure time, in open source, so I wouldn't offer the value of volunteering as an explanation in this context.
Thanks, Marina
----- Original Message ----- From: "Máirín Duffy" duffy@redhat.com To: diversity@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2015 11:32:25 AM Subject: Re: First complaint
On 07/02/2015 11:18 AM, Spencer Hunley wrote:
I agree with Maria and Matthew - it's with Fedora, and Fedora itself has no budget since it's a community-based distribution, similar to the budget for Debian. She seems to be confusing Red Hat with Fedora here, probably because the position was posted by employees of Red Hat - but looking at the tweet it clearly states "The @fedora community is looking for a Diversity & Inclusion Advisor", so I'm not sure where the confusion sits.
I think the confusion comes from it looking like a real paid job description - I don't think we've ever actual done that before for an unpaid Fedora position.
Reading the tweet https://twitter.com/FeyNudibranch/status/616283167700332545
She's rehashing a well-worn activist trope about volunteerism with full disregard for the fact that this is an *open source* project and the very nature of open source is the underpinning of a large base of volunteers. If anything, actually outlining a position and granting authority to a non-technical volunteer is a lot more than 99.999% FLOSS volunteers get to work with when starting out...
So I'd respond with something to point out that it's an open source project and the very nature of such projects, eg
"This is not a generic tech job. This is an advisory role for an open source community, communities whose underpinnings rely on volunteerism (see https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=volunteer+%22open+source%22&a...)"
~m _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@lists.fedoraproject.org https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
On 07/02/2015 11:45 AM, Marina Zhurakhinskaya wrote:
I would underscore that this is a position on the Fedora Council, which is part of Fedora community governance.
Reliance on volunteering or unpaid work is one of the reasons there are fewer people from minority backgrounds, who have less leisure time, in open source, so I wouldn't offer the value of volunteering as an explanation in this context.
The argument implicitly being posed here, whether intended by anyone involved or not, is this:
Is it better to have no role at all than an unpaid one?
Those are the two options right now.
~m
As I mention at some of the meetings I went when talking about the role, creating a position with so much formality is why people will consider it a job, when it's clearly not. Don't want to say that formality is bad, just that it's out of scope to post a job description for what is just a communitary roll.
Do we have a job description for FAmSCo, FESCo or the Board? Sometimes, keeping things simple can be less confusing.
Easy way to go with is just to appoint someone and start working, and in a year or two make an election to select someone else or go with the same person again. Posting formal request like this create hiring expectations between the community members.
2015-07-02 11:43 GMT-04:30 Máirín Duffy duffy@redhat.com:
On 07/02/2015 11:45 AM, Marina Zhurakhinskaya wrote:
I would underscore that this is a position on the Fedora Council, which is part of Fedora community governance.
Reliance on volunteering or unpaid work is one of the reasons there are fewer people from minority backgrounds, who have less leisure time, in open source, so I wouldn't offer the value of volunteering as an explanation in this context.
The argument implicitly being posed here, whether intended by anyone involved or not, is this:
Is it better to have no role at all than an unpaid one?
Those are the two options right now.
~m _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@lists.fedoraproject.org https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
I disagree. Just because it's an unpaid volunteer position doesn't mean expectations should be low. Diversity is a problem in the tech world in general, and despite recent efforts, is still one in the Linux community - regardless of distribution. Bringing someone on board for this position who would be ineffective, unfamiliar with the duties of the role, and unable to meet the requirements listed would make the role irrelevant and hamper efforts to increase diversity and equality to the community. By pushing such formality, it gets rid of the cruft - those who would merely use the position as a title, those who would use the position for their own gain, etc. - and sets a tone of professional understanding, putting anyone who applies on notice that there is serious efforts behind the creation of this opening.
I know it limits prospects; I am aware that it might be confusing. But anyone who is confused may not be familiar with Fedora, and that lack of understanding and knowledge would be a problem The Diversity Advisor would be working with very sensitive, sometimes hot-button issues with a wide variety of people whose sexual orientations, racial/cultural backgrounds, abilities/disabilities, self-identification, etc. must be respected and recognized in a professional manner. Fedora needs someone who can do that, and hopefully someone who has proven that as well.
My apologies for the rant - TL;DR I think the professional look and process is definitely worth it, and will lead to better candidates and a more progressive and diverse community, and could hopefully be a template for other distributions and companies as well.
- Spencer
Spencer Hunley http://about.me/spencerhunley (816) 866-0847
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:37 PM, María Leandro tatica@fedoraproject.org wrote:
As I mention at some of the meetings I went when talking about the role, creating a position with so much formality is why people will consider it a job, when it's clearly not. Don't want to say that formality is bad, just that it's out of scope to post a job description for what is just a communitary roll.
Do we have a job description for FAmSCo, FESCo or the Board? Sometimes, keeping things simple can be less confusing.
Easy way to go with is just to appoint someone and start working, and in a year or two make an election to select someone else or go with the same person again. Posting formal request like this create hiring expectations between the community members.
2015-07-02 11:43 GMT-04:30 Máirín Duffy duffy@redhat.com:
On 07/02/2015 11:45 AM, Marina Zhurakhinskaya wrote:
I would underscore that this is a position on the Fedora Council, which is part of Fedora community governance.
Reliance on volunteering or unpaid work is one of the reasons there are fewer people from minority backgrounds, who have less leisure time, in open source, so I wouldn't offer the value of volunteering as an explanation in this context.
The argument implicitly being posed here, whether intended by anyone involved or not, is this:
Is it better to have no role at all than an unpaid one?
Those are the two options right now.
~m _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@lists.fedoraproject.org https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
-- tatica Maria Gracia Leandro http://www.tatica.org http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:tatica LinuxUser= 440285 GPG Public Key: E1CDCC56
diversity mailing list diversity@lists.fedoraproject.org https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
I didn't said expectations to be low, at all... I just said that other groups such as FAmSCo and FESCo don't require such formality and yet, the job is done and with high quality.
We already have people who work with those groups, they are called "Ambassadors". What should be seek is someone who can bring those groups together and make them coexist with their differences without starting a flame.
2015-07-02 13:29 GMT-04:30 Spencer Hunley spencer.hunley@gmail.com:
I disagree. Just because it's an unpaid volunteer position doesn't mean expectations should be low. Diversity is a problem in the tech world in general, and despite recent efforts, is still one in the Linux community - regardless of distribution. Bringing someone on board for this position who would be ineffective, unfamiliar with the duties of the role, and unable to meet the requirements listed would make the role irrelevant and hamper efforts to increase diversity and equality to the community. By pushing such formality, it gets rid of the cruft - those who would merely use the position as a title, those who would use the position for their own gain, etc. - and sets a tone of professional understanding, putting anyone who applies on notice that there is serious efforts behind the creation of this opening.
I know it limits prospects; I am aware that it might be confusing. But anyone who is confused may not be familiar with Fedora, and that lack of understanding and knowledge would be a problem The Diversity Advisor would be working with very sensitive, sometimes hot-button issues with a wide variety of people whose sexual orientations, racial/cultural backgrounds, abilities/disabilities, self-identification, etc. must be respected and recognized in a professional manner. Fedora needs someone who can do that, and hopefully someone who has proven that as well.
My apologies for the rant - TL;DR I think the professional look and process is definitely worth it, and will lead to better candidates and a more progressive and diverse community, and could hopefully be a template for other distributions and companies as well.
- Spencer
Spencer Hunley http://about.me/spencerhunley (816) 866-0847
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:37 PM, María Leandro tatica@fedoraproject.org wrote:
As I mention at some of the meetings I went when talking about the role, creating a position with so much formality is why people will consider it a job, when it's clearly not. Don't want to say that formality is bad, just that it's out of scope to post a job description for what is just a communitary roll.
Do we have a job description for FAmSCo, FESCo or the Board? Sometimes, keeping things simple can be less confusing.
Easy way to go with is just to appoint someone and start working, and in a year or two make an election to select someone else or go with the same person again. Posting formal request like this create hiring expectations between the community members.
2015-07-02 11:43 GMT-04:30 Máirín Duffy duffy@redhat.com:
On 07/02/2015 11:45 AM, Marina Zhurakhinskaya wrote:
I would underscore that this is a position on the Fedora Council, which is part of Fedora community governance.
Reliance on volunteering or unpaid work is one of the reasons there are fewer people from minority backgrounds, who have less leisure time, in open source, so I wouldn't offer the value of volunteering as an explanation in this context.
The argument implicitly being posed here, whether intended by anyone involved or not, is this:
Is it better to have no role at all than an unpaid one?
Those are the two options right now.
~m _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@lists.fedoraproject.org https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
-- tatica Maria Gracia Leandro http://www.tatica.org http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:tatica LinuxUser= 440285 GPG Public Key: E1CDCC56
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