As Brian mentioned in [1],[2] as in the CWG wanted to get a constructive feedback on COC and COCE proposed drafts from the whole community on the FAB list highlights one issue that the project is facing as in we don't have a good way of gathering community feedback on topics.
This issue is probably know but for some reason not being worked upon? ( Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong )
Anyway to point out the obvious encase nobody was aware of this issue. ( we have been without one for now about 15 release cycles so something is amiss )
He posts the proposed drafts to a single mailing list which..
a) Has a limited number of users subscribed to it
b) Requires all members of the community to be subscribed to that particular list.
c) Mailing list provide the ability to see and reply to others people feed back resulting in so called *noise* as in people reassuring their feedback encase the message/meaning did get through and etc.. rather then constructive discussion.
That results in an end result that is far from being effective and reaching the whole community.
Coming up with a rough solution to gather the feedback is a no brainer
First we need a common dominator that applies to all community members and that one is obvious FAS account.
Next we need a web server with a DB backend, hooked up to FAS with an simple web page that the community member logs into that displays to him what he needs to provide his feedback and two text boxes one for the feedback and another one for any question he might have with regards to the proposal/draft itself.
With the above in place all that is needed is to request the feedback via our public channels like a mail to the announce or something similar.
Now the tricky part is coming up with a simple yet scalable to the total number of community members solution, to work through all that feedback I got couple of ideas up my sleeves for that but instead of reinventing the wheel I propose that existing survey tools like [1],[2] be looked at first to see how they have solved the problem we are facing.
JBG
1. http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2011-March/010525.ht... 2. http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2011-March/010526.ht... 3. http://www.limesurvey.org/ 4. http://www.doodle.com
...snip idea for a website for community feedback...
Perhaps this would be something good to add to: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Summer_coding_ideas_for_2011 ?
I don't think infrastructure has resources to build something like this, but if it was it's own alive project we could look at resources for hosting an instance.
limesurvey is still stuck in review: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=508817
kevin
On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 12:33:18PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
...snip idea for a website for community feedback...
Perhaps this would be something good to add to: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Summer_coding_ideas_for_2011 ?
I don't think infrastructure has resources to build something like this, but if it was it's own alive project we could look at resources for hosting an instance.
+1 that's a good idea.
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Karsten Wade kwade@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 12:33:18PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
...snip idea for a website for community feedback...
Perhaps this would be something good to add to: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Summer_coding_ideas_for_2011 ?
I don't think infrastructure has resources to build something like this, but if it was it's own alive project we could look at resources for hosting an instance.
+1 that's a good idea.
Does the infrastructure team agree that they have the resources/capacity to host such an instance ? That ACK should be in place before putting it on the GSoC idea page.
On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 23:28, sankarshan foss.mailinglists@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Karsten Wade kwade@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 12:33:18PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
...snip idea for a website for community feedback...
Perhaps this would be something good to add to: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Summer_coding_ideas_for_2011 ?
I don't think infrastructure has resources to build something like this, but if it was it's own alive project we could look at resources for hosting an instance.
+1 that's a good idea.
Does the infrastructure team agree that they have the resources/capacity to host such an instance ? That ACK should be in place before putting it on the GSoC idea page.
It depends on what you mean by hosting?
We can provide minimal hosting probably within two weeks of an RFR. Minimal hosting means setting up a virtual system for it to run on, working on backup mechanisms for the system to be restorable.
The current main staff would not be able to provide much coding orintegration support. This would require people who are motivated and can work on it long term to do so. We would be happy to work such people through the apprentice program to get it done.
-- sankarshan mukhopadhyay http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
On Wed, 9 Mar 2011 11:58:33 +0530 sankarshan foss.mailinglists@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Karsten Wade kwade@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 12:33:18PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
...snip idea for a website for community feedback...
Perhaps this would be something good to add to: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Summer_coding_ideas_for_2011 ?
I don't think infrastructure has resources to build something like this, but if it was it's own alive project we could look at resources for hosting an instance.
+1 that's a good idea.
Does the infrastructure team agree that they have the resources/capacity to host such an instance ? That ACK should be in place before putting it on the GSoC idea page.
I don't think there is any way infrastructure could commit to hosting and updating and managing "something" that isn't even outlined yet. ;)
If someone wished to make an application that does this, I would suggest the following:
* Make sure it grows an upstream community and is NOT just Fedora specific. This could be something other projects use and getting them involved could add a lot of manpower.
* To be more Fedora Infrastructure friendly, I would suggest avoiding java or ruby and look at python frameworks/solutions.
* Make sure to have at least 2 people who know the code/can update/fix things around. If you only have one primary coder, and they aren't available the app may be in trouble.
* Offer to help test and setup instances and train infrastructure people in how it works and how to manage it.
I do hope some folks will work on something like this... it looks like it might have a good niche. :)
kevin
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
Kevin and Stephen - thank you for the clarifications. These should be able to set the requirements/expectations if such a project is at all being considered as a GSoC idea.
If someone wished to make an application that does this, I would suggest the following:
- Make sure it grows an upstream community and is NOT just Fedora
specific. This could be something other projects use and getting them involved could add a lot of manpower.
- To be more Fedora Infrastructure friendly, I would suggest avoiding
java or ruby and look at python frameworks/solutions.
- Make sure to have at least 2 people who know the code/can update/fix
things around. If you only have one primary coder, and they aren't available the app may be in trouble.
- Offer to help test and setup instances and train infrastructure people
in how it works and how to manage it.
The above probably needs to go under a page that is meant to be read by those requesting Infrastructure team to host (term strictly as per Stephen's definition) applications.
I do hope some folks will work on something like this... it looks like it might have a good niche. :)
Yes it does. In a way I believe this would have probably helped applications like FSoC take a different route for framework than the current RoR.
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:06:32 +0530 sankarshan foss.mailinglists@gmail.com wrote:
The above probably needs to go under a page that is meant to be read by those requesting Infrastructure team to host (term strictly as per Stephen's definition) applications.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/RFR
Should have much of the above, or pointers/ideas for it.
kevin
1. Fedora users feel like they have NO mechanism for feedback.
The mailing lists are a maze and designed for contributors not for mere users.
The prescribed mechanism on the Fedora website is http://fedoraforum.org/ This website is clearly avoided like the plague by all contributors. If ANYBODY who had any say in the Fedora project visited things like the VERY VERY VERY unpopular changes to the GDM would be instantly reversed. In fact many like myself for the first time no longer have Fedora running on any of my machines for the first time since Fedora came into existence. Since about 97 I've had at least 1 machine usually most or all running Redhat and later Fedora. It's been my main distro for years. The GDM issue was the last straw. Feedback on fedora forums on all the Linux forums I've visited has been extremely negative and I've seen quite a few people do the same thing I have and switch to another distro.
2. Why does the Fedora project TELL people to go to a forum to give feedback then never visit the place much less listen to feedback offered? It is clearly stated at the Fedora forums that contributors never visit there because so many arrive on their shores with the false hope of actually giving feedback.
2011/3/2 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" johannbg@gmail.com
As Brian mentioned in [1],[2] as in the CWG wanted to get a constructive feedback on COC and COCE proposed drafts from the whole community on the FAB list highlights one issue that the project is facing as in we don't have a good way of gathering community feedback on topics.
This issue is probably know but for some reason not being worked upon? ( Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong )
Anyway to point out the obvious encase nobody was aware of this issue. ( we have been without one for now about 15 release cycles so something is amiss )
He posts the proposed drafts to a single mailing list which..
a) Has a limited number of users subscribed to it
b) Requires all members of the community to be subscribed to that particular list.
c) Mailing list provide the ability to see and reply to others people feed back resulting in so called *noise* as in people reassuring their feedback encase the message/meaning did get through and etc.. rather then constructive discussion.
That results in an end result that is far from being effective and reaching the whole community.
Coming up with a rough solution to gather the feedback is a no brainer
First we need a common dominator that applies to all community members and that one is obvious FAS account.
Next we need a web server with a DB backend, hooked up to FAS with an simple web page that the community member logs into that displays to him what he needs to provide his feedback and two text boxes one for the feedback and another one for any question he might have with regards to the proposal/draft itself.
With the above in place all that is needed is to request the feedback via our public channels like a mail to the announce or something similar.
Now the tricky part is coming up with a simple yet scalable to the total number of community members solution, to work through all that feedback I got couple of ideas up my sleeves for that but instead of reinventing the wheel I propose that existing survey tools like [1],[2] be looked at first to see how they have solved the problem we are facing.
JBG
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2011-March/010525.ht... 2.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2011-March/010526.ht... 3. http://www.limesurvey.org/ 4. http://www.doodle.com _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
On 3/8/11 11:51 PM, Draciron Smith wrote:
If ANYBODY who had any say in the Fedora project visited things like the VERY VERY VERY unpopular changes to the GDM would be instantly reversed.
You're making the assumption that Fedora users get to dictate upstream development. That's very much not the case.
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 00:51, Draciron Smith draciron@gmail.com wrote:
- Fedora users feel like they have NO mechanism for feedback.
The mailing lists are a maze and designed for contributors not for mere users.
The prescribed mechanism on the Fedora website is http://fedoraforum.org/
Well maybe we need to change that. Fedora Forum is run by an outside organization of volunteers.
This website is clearly avoided like the plague by all contributors. If ANYBODY who had any say in the Fedora project visited things like the VERY VERY VERY unpopular changes to the GDM would be instantly reversed. In fact many like myself for the first time no longer have Fedora running on any of my machines for the first time since Fedora came into existence. Since about 97 I've had at least 1 machine usually most or all running Redhat and later Fedora. It's been my main distro for years. The GDM issue was the last straw. Feedback on fedora forums on all the Linux forums I've visited has been extremely negative and I've seen quite a few people do the same thing I have and switch to another distro.
That is the way of things. New people come in and old people leave. It is not an infrastructure item to deal with it other than make those transitions as easy as possible.
- Why does the Fedora project TELL people to go to a forum to give feedback
Link please. I don't see where it is told that feedback is to be given there.. just that one can best find help there. Two different things.
then never visit the place much less listen to feedback offered? It is clearly stated at the Fedora forums that contributors never visit there because so many arrive on their shores with the false hope of actually giving feedback.
2011/3/2 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" johannbg@gmail.com
As Brian mentioned in [1],[2] as in the CWG wanted to get a constructive feedback on COC and COCE proposed drafts from the whole community on the FAB list highlights one issue that the project is facing as in we don't have a good way of gathering community feedback on topics.
This issue is probably know but for some reason not being worked upon? ( Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong )
Anyway to point out the obvious encase nobody was aware of this issue. ( we have been without one for now about 15 release cycles so something is amiss )
He posts the proposed drafts to a single mailing list which..
a) Has a limited number of users subscribed to it
b) Requires all members of the community to be subscribed to that particular list.
c) Mailing list provide the ability to see and reply to others people feed back resulting in so called *noise* as in people reassuring their feedback encase the message/meaning did get through and etc.. rather then constructive discussion.
That results in an end result that is far from being effective and reaching the whole community.
Coming up with a rough solution to gather the feedback is a no brainer
First we need a common dominator that applies to all community members and that one is obvious FAS account.
Next we need a web server with a DB backend, hooked up to FAS with an simple web page that the community member logs into that displays to him what he needs to provide his feedback and two text boxes one for the feedback and another one for any question he might have with regards to the proposal/draft itself.
With the above in place all that is needed is to request the feedback via our public channels like a mail to the announce or something similar.
Now the tricky part is coming up with a simple yet scalable to the total number of community members solution, to work through all that feedback I got couple of ideas up my sleeves for that but instead of reinventing the wheel I propose that existing survey tools like [1],[2] be looked at first to see how they have solved the problem we are facing.
JBG
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2011-March/010525.ht... 2.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2011-March/010526.ht... 3. http://www.limesurvey.org/ 4. http://www.doodle.com _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora Go down to support options. Under forum it links you to fedoraforum.org. It has for years now. I think I first joined Fedoraforums.org back when FC4 or FC5 was out.
The volunteers running that forum are very knowledgeable people. Some of the best documentation your going to find on Fedora can be found there. For example how to deal with Nvidia drivers. That is THE authority I've found on that topic. The FAQ they have is well written and works. I would not change that if I were you as they have done a much better job than official channels at Fedora have with solving many tricky issues that come with the use of Fedora. Being outside Fedora they can also espouse topics that are iffy for Fedora such as propitiatory formats. This gives Fedora a certain distance from solutions that are necessary for real life usage but also carry potential litigation if RedHat officially endorses the solution.
No it's not generally an infrastructure issue. I'd almost forgotten I'd joined this list. I believe I joined it because I was asked to do some MySQL tuning for y'all but nobody ever got back to me on the details. Since I was a member of a few contributor groups such as Docs I just never unsubscribed. I've since unsubscribed all the other Fedora lists I belonged to. For some reason forgot this one but saw the title of the post and immediately jumped on it.
The phrasing dictate that Jesse Keating uses I think succinctly expresses how most Fedora users feel about the project. Fedora built by far the best distro by FC3. There was no comparison. However Fedora has no interest in user feedback. They will give us what they want, when they want how they want. I and many others are greatly disappointed by the direction Fedora has taken over the last several releases but especially the last few. As such we moved on to other distros. Ceased contributing and am slowly ceasing support for other Fedora users as we become farther removed from Fedora.
While the purpose of the Fedora project is to test and explore ideas for RHE, the lack of touch with the community is harming that purpose as well. I've personally been the causation of several sales of RHE over the years. Yeah it's small fry but there are thousands of professional admins like me out there and that's RHE's bread and butter. We are the folks that sign the POs and or make the recommendations to the people who sign those POs to buy or not to buy RHE. For me the decision used to be simple. RHE for the servers and Fedora for the desktops for large installations. Fedora for both servers and desktops for small business unless I couldn't shake them of their Microsoft dependency for desktops.
Not such an easy decision any more. Fedora is not an option for the desktop. Changes in the support cycles make it too short lived a distro to use for deployment on any scale. The GDM change is a serious pain as well and several other less annoying changes or failures to adopt standard practice for other distros leave Fedora a poor desktop option today. RHE is still a first class distro for severs but how long until the very things that have annoyed me enough to ditch Fedora as a desktop distro will show up in RHE?
So the next time I take a contract to deploy Linux on a site I'm going to lean towards other solutions. When the RHE versions currently installed on many servers reach end of life there might be a whole different distro being deployed on those servers/workstations. What people use at home is what they generally take to work. That's how NT managed to supplant Novell. Never was NT the equal of Novell. It was however something people could easily pirate and get a network up and running at home with. They then gained some level of expertise and a whole lot of familiarity and even though NT was a horrible server platform that's what people used. Redhat's personal distro then later Fedora did the same thing. I introduced hundreds of people to Linux using Fedora. Many of them then later used Fedora at work. They'd email me asking how to set up this or that sever and I'd walk them through it or bragging about how they did this or that with Fedora a mere year or two after they were total Linux noobs and I set them up with their first Fedora install over IM, email and or phone. Fedora is the LAST distro I'd put on a noobs machine today. It is decidedly unfriendly toward new users.
So when I get those emails today, it's people using Ubuntu or SUSE or CentOS not Fedora. So the lack of touch with the community DOES have an impact on RedHat's business model.
Y'all are welcome to kick me off the list. I'll be leaving it anyway at the end of this thread because I no longer use Fedora, thus no real incentive to contribute any more. I'm no longer active on the Fedoraforum.org website not that I was an especially active contributor there. The staff there are quite knowledgeable and very active so most of the time they answered a question long before I saw it. Y'all really should lend more support to that website by actually visiting it and seeing what real life users of your project are experiencing/asking/happy & upset about.
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Stephen John Smoogen smooge@gmail.comwrote:
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 00:51, Draciron Smith draciron@gmail.com wrote:
- Fedora users feel like they have NO mechanism for feedback.
The mailing lists are a maze and designed for contributors not for mere users.
The prescribed mechanism on the Fedora website is
Well maybe we need to change that. Fedora Forum is run by an outside organization of volunteers.
This website is clearly avoided like the plague by all contributors. If ANYBODY who had any say in the Fedora project visited things like the
VERY
VERY VERY unpopular changes to the GDM would be instantly reversed. In
fact
many like myself for the first time no longer have Fedora running on any
of
my machines for the first time since Fedora came into existence. Since
about
97 I've had at least 1 machine usually most or all running Redhat and
later
Fedora. It's been my main distro for years. The GDM issue was the last straw. Feedback on fedora forums on all the Linux forums I've visited has been extremely negative and I've seen quite a few people do the same
thing I
have and switch to another distro.
That is the way of things. New people come in and old people leave. It is not an infrastructure item to deal with it other than make those transitions as easy as possible.
- Why does the Fedora project TELL people to go to a forum to give
feedback
Link please. I don't see where it is told that feedback is to be given there.. just that one can best find help there. Two different things.
then never visit the place much less listen to feedback offered? It is clearly stated at the Fedora forums that contributors never visit there because so many arrive on their shores with the false hope of actually giving feedback.
2011/3/2 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" johannbg@gmail.com
As Brian mentioned in [1],[2] as in the CWG wanted to get a constructive feedback on COC and COCE proposed drafts from the whole community on the FAB list highlights one issue that the project is facing as in we don't have a good way of gathering community feedback on topics.
This issue is probably know but for some reason not being worked upon? ( Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong )
Anyway to point out the obvious encase nobody was aware of this issue. ( we have been without one for now about 15 release cycles so something is amiss )
He posts the proposed drafts to a single mailing list which..
a) Has a limited number of users subscribed to it
b) Requires all members of the community to be subscribed to that particular list.
c) Mailing list provide the ability to see and reply to others people feed back resulting in so called *noise* as in people reassuring their feedback encase the message/meaning did get through and etc.. rather then constructive discussion.
That results in an end result that is far from being effective and reaching the whole community.
Coming up with a rough solution to gather the feedback is a no brainer
First we need a common dominator that applies to all community members and that one is obvious FAS account.
Next we need a web server with a DB backend, hooked up to FAS with an simple web page that the community member logs into that displays to him what he needs to provide his feedback and two text boxes one for the feedback and another one for any question he might have with regards to the proposal/draft itself.
With the above in place all that is needed is to request the feedback via our public channels like a mail to the announce or something
similar.
Now the tricky part is coming up with a simple yet scalable to the total number of community members solution, to work through all that feedback I got couple of ideas up my sleeves for that but instead of reinventing the wheel I propose that existing survey tools like [1],[2] be looked at first to see how they have solved the problem we are facing.
JBG
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2011-March/010525.ht...
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2011-March/010526.ht...
infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
-- Stephen J Smoogen. "The core skill of innovators is error recovery, not failure avoidance." Randy Nelson, President of Pixar University. "Let us be kind, one to another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle." -- Ian MacLaren _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:58, Draciron Smith draciron@gmail.com wrote:
http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora Go down to support options. Under forum it links you to fedoraforum.org. It has for years now. I think I first joined Fedoraforums.org back when FC4 or FC5 was out.
I see that, but I don't think it is shown as being THE place for users to go. On the other hand I don't think that is really the point of your emails. You are unhappy with the direction with Fedora and I can understand and sympathize. In the end, I want people to find what makes them happy, and if Fedora is not doing it.. please do go find someplace that will do so.
I have no plan to kick people off the list for opinions I think we have all had at one time or another. I won't say this is the best avenue for getting anything done with it.. but I understand. Good luck with your next OS.
Y'all are welcome to kick me off the list. I'll be leaving it anyway at the end of this thread because I no longer use Fedora, thus no real incentive to contribute any more. I'm no longer active on the Fedoraforum.org website not that I was an especially active contributor there. The staff there are quite knowledgeable and very active so most of the time they answered a question long before I saw it. Y'all really should lend more support to that website by actually visiting it and seeing what real life users of your project are experiencing/asking/happy & upset about.
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Stephen John Smoogen smooge@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 00:51, Draciron Smith draciron@gmail.com wrote:
- Fedora users feel like they have NO mechanism for feedback.
The mailing lists are a maze and designed for contributors not for mere users.
The prescribed mechanism on the Fedora website is http://fedoraforum.org/
Well maybe we need to change that. Fedora Forum is run by an outside organization of volunteers.
This website is clearly avoided like the plague by all contributors. If ANYBODY who had any say in the Fedora project visited things like the VERY VERY VERY unpopular changes to the GDM would be instantly reversed. In fact many like myself for the first time no longer have Fedora running on any of my machines for the first time since Fedora came into existence. Since about 97 I've had at least 1 machine usually most or all running Redhat and later Fedora. It's been my main distro for years. The GDM issue was the last straw. Feedback on fedora forums on all the Linux forums I've visited has been extremely negative and I've seen quite a few people do the same thing I have and switch to another distro.
That is the way of things. New people come in and old people leave. It is not an infrastructure item to deal with it other than make those transitions as easy as possible.
- Why does the Fedora project TELL people to go to a forum to give
feedback
Link please. I don't see where it is told that feedback is to be given there.. just that one can best find help there. Two different things.
then never visit the place much less listen to feedback offered? It is clearly stated at the Fedora forums that contributors never visit there because so many arrive on their shores with the false hope of actually giving feedback.
2011/3/2 "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" johannbg@gmail.com
As Brian mentioned in [1],[2] as in the CWG wanted to get a constructive feedback on COC and COCE proposed drafts from the whole community on the FAB list highlights one issue that the project is facing as in we don't have a good way of gathering community feedback on topics.
This issue is probably know but for some reason not being worked upon? ( Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong )
Anyway to point out the obvious encase nobody was aware of this issue. ( we have been without one for now about 15 release cycles so something is amiss )
He posts the proposed drafts to a single mailing list which..
a) Has a limited number of users subscribed to it
b) Requires all members of the community to be subscribed to that particular list.
c) Mailing list provide the ability to see and reply to others people feed back resulting in so called *noise* as in people reassuring their feedback encase the message/meaning did get through and etc.. rather then constructive discussion.
That results in an end result that is far from being effective and reaching the whole community.
Coming up with a rough solution to gather the feedback is a no brainer
First we need a common dominator that applies to all community members and that one is obvious FAS account.
Next we need a web server with a DB backend, hooked up to FAS with an simple web page that the community member logs into that displays to him what he needs to provide his feedback and two text boxes one for the feedback and another one for any question he might have with regards to the proposal/draft itself.
With the above in place all that is needed is to request the feedback via our public channels like a mail to the announce or something similar.
Now the tricky part is coming up with a simple yet scalable to the total number of community members solution, to work through all that feedback I got couple of ideas up my sleeves for that but instead of reinventing the wheel I propose that existing survey tools like [1],[2] be looked at first to see how they have solved the problem we are facing.
JBG
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2011-March/010525.ht... 2.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2011-March/010526.ht... 3. http://www.limesurvey.org/ 4. http://www.doodle.com _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
-- Stephen J Smoogen. "The core skill of innovators is error recovery, not failure avoidance." Randy Nelson, President of Pixar University. "Let us be kind, one to another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle." -- Ian MacLaren _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
Stephen
Forums are the primary source of feedback/discussion/help for most people. Forums are THE main support mechanism for almost all software unless they have live phone/IM tech support. Which of course normally doesn't exist for free software such as Fedora. Firefox has an interesting experiment going on with IM support and I'm fairly impressed with it so far. So fedoraforums is THE place to get support for most users. . As for the best answer again Fedoraforums on many subjects contains THE best answer to a commonly faced problem. The FAQs are updated far more often than even the docs wiki and provide more workable solutions in many cases. Fedoraforums.org deserves better treatment from Fedora than it has gotten.
There are things about all distros that make you grind your teeth in frustration and if they aggravate you enough people generally change distro or write their own solution and fairly often that solution gets pulled into the upstream if enough people adopt it or at worst become commonly used. Fedora lacks any facility to send upstream feedback. Lacks any feedback mechanism at all. It is true Microsoft has managed to repeatedly incur the wrath of it's user base and survived, at least for now. As more people discover Linux and the popularity of Mac's smaller devices replaces PCs for many people the age of Microsoft may well be nearing an end. Microsoft is the exception not the role model for how to do business. Even Microsoft if a high enough percentage of it's user base screams will eventually hear and change what it's doing. Fedora is completely deaf to user feedback.
Yes I'm unhappy with Fedora. I'm exploring various distros right now. I have even been putting out feelers to see if there's enough interest in forking off Fedora. Gotten lots of interest from end users but almost none from developers unfortunately. However that's not the point.
RedHat has been critical for the advancement of Linux since the days of RH5. The loss of RedHat would be a devastating blow to the Linux community and if RedHat doesn't start listening to it's user base it's demise is most assured. It won't be tomorrow, it'll take years for the fallout to eventually show up but when it does the momentum will be impossible to reverse. I'd really hate to see that and what distro I'm using really doesn't matter. The loss of the drivers DB alone would harm the Linux world. Drivers are by far the biggest obstacle to wider Linux use and RedHat is the biggest source of drivers for the Linux community. So no matter what distro I use RedHat's well being is an important consideration for me.
No this is not the correct place to discuss this, the problem is there IS NO good place to put comments like this. NO POSSIBLE WAY TO GIVE FEEDBACK TO THE FEDORA PROJECT. That IS THE PROBLEM. Fedora has no interest in it or Infrastructure would be the group tasked with the interface for the feedback. The actual feedback itself would be sent upstream for filtering and consideration.
I've raised this topic in forums and other formats and I am FAR from alone in my feelings on this. I speak for many when I say these things.
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Stephen John Smoogen smooge@gmail.comwrote:
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:58, Draciron Smith draciron@gmail.com wrote:
http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora Go down to support options. Under forum it links you to fedoraforum.org.
It
has for years now. I think I first joined Fedoraforums.org back when FC4
or
FC5 was out.
I see that, but I don't think it is shown as being THE place for users to go. On the other hand I don't think that is really the point of your emails. You are unhappy with the direction with Fedora and I can understand and sympathize. In the end, I want people to find what makes them happy, and if Fedora is not doing it.. please do go find someplace that will do so.
I have no plan to kick people off the list for opinions I think we have all had at one time or another. I won't say this is the best avenue for getting anything done with it.. but I understand. Good luck with your next OS.
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Draciron Smith draciron@gmail.com wrote:
Stephen
Forums are the primary source of feedback/discussion/help for most people. Forums are THE main support mechanism for almost all software unless they have live phone/IM tech support. Which of course normally doesn't exist for free software such as Fedora. Firefox has an interesting experiment going on with IM support and I'm fairly impressed with it so far. So fedoraforums is THE place to get support for most users. . As for the best answer again Fedoraforums on many subjects contains THE best answer to a commonly faced problem. The FAQs are updated far more often than even the docs wiki and provide more workable solutions in many cases. Fedoraforums.org deserves better treatment from Fedora than it has gotten.
+1 for everything but the last sentence.
Whenever I google around for various issues, fedoraforums.org tends to rank highly in the search results, often being in the top 3. It is a very valuable resource.
There are things about all distros that make you grind your teeth in frustration and if they aggravate you enough people generally change distro or write their own solution and fairly often that solution gets pulled into the upstream if enough people adopt it or at worst become commonly used. Fedora lacks any facility to send upstream feedback. Lacks any feedback mechanism at all. It is true Microsoft has managed to repeatedly incur the wrath of it's user base and survived, at least for now. As more people discover Linux and the popularity of Mac's smaller devices replaces PCs for many people the age of Microsoft may well be nearing an end. Microsoft is the exception not the role model for how to do business. Even Microsoft if a high enough percentage of it's user base screams will eventually hear and change what it's doing. Fedora is completely deaf to user feedback.
-1, disagree.
Feedback mechanisms exist, there is room for improvement, but they do exist.
No this is not the correct place to discuss this, the problem is there IS NO good place to put comments like this. NO POSSIBLE WAY TO GIVE FEEDBACK TO THE FEDORA PROJECT. That IS THE PROBLEM. Fedora has no interest in it or Infrastructure would be the group tasked with the interface for the feedback. The actual feedback itself would be sent upstream for filtering and consideration.
You're giving feedback to members of the fedora project right now.
We are all members, yourself included. Fedora is not a "them", it's an "us".
I've raised this topic in forums and other formats and I am FAR from alone in my feelings on this. I speak for many when I say these things.
There's a lot of frustration going around these days. I empathize and understand it, probably more than I can adequately express.
However, I only see identification of problems here. Do you have any thoughts on solutions to these problems?
Is the issue simply a perception that feedback mechanisms don't exist, or is it that users are not finding the appropriate "How to contribute" wiki pages, or is it that those wiki pages need additional detail or clarification? Is there a miscommunication on where to channel specific types of feedback so that the appropriate *IGs are involved? Is the issue something else entirely? Do you have some free time to help gather information and distill it down into something presentable to the board or any other groups that can help improve the situation? (I'm assuming the board is the appropriate audience for that information, feel free to correct me.)
---Brett.
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Stephen John Smoogen smooge@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:58, Draciron Smith draciron@gmail.com wrote:
http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora Go down to support options. Under forum it links you to fedoraforum.org. It has for years now. I think I first joined Fedoraforums.org back when FC4 or FC5 was out.
I see that, but I don't think it is shown as being THE place for users to go. On the other hand I don't think that is really the point of your emails. You are unhappy with the direction with Fedora and I can understand and sympathize. In the end, I want people to find what makes them happy, and if Fedora is not doing it.. please do go find someplace that will do so.
I have no plan to kick people off the list for opinions I think we have all had at one time or another. I won't say this is the best avenue for getting anything done with it.. but I understand. Good luck with your next OS.
infrastructure mailing list infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/infrastructure
On 3/9/11 10:58 AM, Draciron Smith wrote:
The phrasing dictate that Jesse Keating uses I think succinctly expresses how most Fedora users feel about the project. Fedora built by far the best distro by FC3. There was no comparison. However Fedora has no interest in user feedback. They will give us what they want, when they want how they want. I and many others are greatly disappointed by the direction Fedora has taken over the last several releases but especially the last few. As such we moved on to other distros. Ceased contributing and am slowly ceasing support for other Fedora users as we become farther removed from Fedora.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you're picking the wrong place to be expressing your opinions. If you have issue with the way things work, the proper place to express those opinions is in the upstream development community. Fedora has very strong principles to stay as close to upstream as possible.
infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
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brett lentz -
Draciron Smith -
Jesse Keating -
Jóhann B. Guðmundsson -
Karsten Wade -
Kevin Fenzi -
sankarshan -
Stephen John Smoogen