Well, I believe that I have most of the technical bits in place for Mailman for Fedora Hosted. Now we just need to figure out a few policy items...
1) Who can request lists? My proposal: anyone that is listed as an administrator in the project's group in FAS.
2) What sorts of lists can be requested? My proposal: Lists may be reqested for discussing the use of, development of, or disseminating other useful information about (e.g. announcement or commit lists) projects hosted with Fedora. Lists about non-F/OSS topics or F/OSS projects not hosted with Fedora would not be acceptable.
3) What should the policy on list names be? My proposal:
A) All list names must be prefixed with "<projectname>-". B) All list names must be suffixed with "-list". C) Lists may optionally have something between the prefix and suffix, as long as it's not obviously vulgar or obscene.
For example, the following would be acceptable list names:
smolt-list smolt-dev-list smolt-commits-list
The purpose for the "-list" suffix is to keep lists in a separate namespace in case we want to use <something>@fedorahosted.org for some other purpose in the future.
The exceptions to this rule would be the default "mailman" site list and possibly a list dedicated to discussing the Fedora Hosted service itself (name to be determined later). FESCo or the Fedora Board could approve other exceptions.
4) What should the policy on archives be? My proposal:
A) All lists must have public archives. The exception would be the default "mailman" list. B) Requests to remove a post from the archives will be denied unless it can be shown that by *not* removing the post RedHat and/or Fedora face a credible threat of civil or criminal liability. We'll likely require the assistance of RH Legal to make these sorts of determinations (hopefully they will never happen).
Jeff
On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
Well, I believe that I have most of the technical bits in place for Mailman for Fedora Hosted. Now we just need to figure out a few policy items...
- Who can request lists? My proposal: anyone that is listed as an
administrator in the project's group in FAS.
anyone can request a list, the filter will be for the admin team to create it.
- What sorts of lists can be requested? My proposal: Lists may be
reqested for discussing the use of, development of, or disseminating other useful information about (e.g. announcement or commit lists) projects hosted with Fedora. Lists about non-F/OSS topics or F/OSS projects not hosted with Fedora would not be acceptable.
I think thats fine, most common requests $project-users $project-devel will be easy to just let through. Questionable ones can always be dealt with as they come.
- What should the policy on list names be? My proposal:
A) All list names must be prefixed with "<projectname>-". B) All list names must be suffixed with "-list". C) Lists may optionally have something between the prefix and suffix, as long as it's not obviously vulgar or obscene.
For example, the following would be acceptable list names:
smolt-list smolt-dev-list smolt-commits-list
We've had requests about this by the individuals to remove "-list" I'm fine with it as the standard though. We can add it to the faq.
The exceptions to this rule would be the default "mailman" site list and possibly a list dedicated to discussing the Fedora Hosted service itself (name to be determined later). FESCo or the Fedora Board could approve other exceptions.
- What should the policy on archives be? My proposal:
A) All lists must have public archives. The exception would be the default "mailman" list.
+1
B) Requests to remove a post from the archives will be denied unless it can be shown that by *not* removing the post RedHat and/or Fedora face a credible threat of civil or criminal liability. We'll likely require the assistance of RH Legal to make these sorts of determinations (hopefully they will never happen).
I think this might already be covered by our privacy policy. Either way we generally don't take stuff down unless there's some technical or other reason. Its easy for us to say "no we won't take that down" because people can escalate to the board.. who will then say no, we won't take that down :)
Side note: Are the scripts ready? Do we have an SOP for it yet?
-Mike
On 2/19/08, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
B) All list names must be suffixed with "-list".
We've had requests about this by the individuals to remove "-list" I'm fine with it as the standard though. We can add it to the faq.
It's not a big deal for me as long as we're consistent. Lists should either have it, or not.
Side note: Are the scripts ready?
Almost.
Do we have an SOP for it yet?
No.
Jeff
On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 13:27 -0600, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
On 2/19/08, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
B) All list names must be suffixed with "-list".
We've had requests about this by the individuals to remove "-list" I'm fine with it as the standard though. We can add it to the faq.
It's not a big deal for me as long as we're consistent. Lists should either have it, or not.
Why not use <something>@lists.fedoraproject.org, this way, you could still use <something>@fedoraproject.org, and the suffix "-list" is gone.
just my 2c.
./bras
On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 02:04:09PM +0000, Jorge Bras wrote:
On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 13:27 -0600, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
On 2/19/08, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
B) All list names must be suffixed with "-list".
We've had requests about this by the individuals to remove "-list" I'm fine with it as the standard though. We can add it to the faq.
It's not a big deal for me as long as we're consistent. Lists should either have it, or not.
Why not use <something>@lists.fedoraproject.org, this way, you could still use <something>@fedoraproject.org, and the suffix "-list" is gone.
I personally really like <something>@lists.fedorahosted.org, with mailman managing all the mail to that address. In the end it's all semantics anyhow, so do what's easiest for you long-term.
On Feb 19, 2008 10:45 AM, Jeffrey Ollie jeff@ocjtech.us wrote:
- What should the policy on archives be? My proposal:
A) All lists must have public archives. The exception would be the default "mailman" list.
Agreed on everything (with Mike's caveats) except for this. There *will* be exceptions to this rule. An example that I'm on is fedora-freemedia-list - we don't want folks home addresses showing up to anyone that cares to look at the archives.
freemedia is a closed list with private archives, because of the personal information to be found there. fedora-board-list is another one, and I'm sure there's more, dealing with security for example. There needs to be a method of exception to the rule.
+1 for the general idea, though - there should be *good* reason to get an exception that requires approval from Someone In Charge(TM)
Jon Stanley (jonstanley@gmail.com) said:
freemedia is a closed list with private archives, because of the personal information to be found there. fedora-board-list is another one, and I'm sure there's more, dealing with security for example. There needs to be a method of exception to the rule.
+1 for the general idea, though - there should be *good* reason to get an exception that requires approval from Someone In Charge(TM)
Are we intending to move *active* lists to new hosting?
Bill
On 2/19/08, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
Are we intending to move *active* lists to new hosting?
The first step in the New Mailman World Order is to provide mailing list services for Fedora Hosted projects. The various Fedora mailing lists hosted on RedHat's Mailman server would be unchanged.
Jeff
On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Jon Stanley wrote:
On Feb 19, 2008 10:45 AM, Jeffrey Ollie jeff@ocjtech.us wrote:
- What should the policy on archives be? My proposal:
A) All lists must have public archives. The exception would be the default "mailman" list.
Agreed on everything (with Mike's caveats) except for this. There *will* be exceptions to this rule. An example that I'm on is fedora-freemedia-list - we don't want folks home addresses showing up to anyone that cares to look at the archives.
freemedia is a closed list with private archives, because of the personal information to be found there. fedora-board-list is another one, and I'm sure there's more, dealing with security for example. There needs to be a method of exception to the rule.
+1 for the general idea, though - there should be *good* reason to get an exception that requires approval from Someone In Charge(TM)
Hmm, unfortunately I don't think hosted is the right solution for those people. We even offer direct rsync access to all of the projects, I had assumed we'd be doing the same for mail archives. We don't allow any private data in hosted currently, not sure that we should for the mailing lists either.
-Mike
On 2/19/08, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Jon Stanley wrote:
On Feb 19, 2008 10:45 AM, Jeffrey Ollie jeff@ocjtech.us wrote:
- What should the policy on archives be? My proposal:
A) All lists must have public archives. The exception would be the default "mailman" list.
Agreed on everything (with Mike's caveats) except for this. There *will* be exceptions to this rule. An example that I'm on is fedora-freemedia-list - we don't want folks home addresses showing up to anyone that cares to look at the archives.
freemedia is a closed list with private archives, because of the personal information to be found there. fedora-board-list is another one, and I'm sure there's more, dealing with security for example. There needs to be a method of exception to the rule.
Hmm, unfortunately I don't think hosted is the right solution for those people. We even offer direct rsync access to all of the projects, I had assumed we'd be doing the same for mail archives. We don't allow any private data in hosted currently, not sure that we should for the mailing lists either.
Yeah, I would think that a mailing list wouldn't be the best tool for the free media project anyway. I would think that some sort of bug/issue tracking system where bugs/issues could be marked as "private" would be best - that would make it easier to make sure that media requests get handled and don't get lost.
Jeff
On Feb 19, 2008 4:09 PM, Jeffrey Ollie jeff@ocjtech.us wrote:
Yeah, I would think that a mailing list wouldn't be the best tool for the free media project anyway. I would think that some sort of bug/issue tracking system where bugs/issues could be marked as "private" would be best - that would make it easier to make sure that media requests get handled and don't get lost.
Hmm, excellent idea. We already have a method of putting users in bz groups via FAS/xmlrpc magic, and this is actually the best idea I've seen for handling this. Copying Thomas on this. Here's what I think the workflow would be:
1) Create new product in bz called Fedora Freemedia. Restrict entry in this product to members of freemedia_contrib or whatever. 2) Have the freemedia form, instead of sending mail, file bugs against that product, making them private to freemedia_contrib using the python-bugzilla interface. 3) When someone accepts the request, they ASSIGN the bugs to themselves. 4) When the request is completed, the person closes the bug.
It's step 4 that we can't track with our current system. I, for example, was several days delayed in getting stuff out the door from accepting requests this month. That could be easily seen and somehow exported to our tracking page.
I've got some reporting scripts for bz in general since I'm the Triage Dude(TM). They could be easily be modified to do whatever.
As for the original post, I wasn't thinking that we were just talking about hosted here. I thought that we were eventually (not as part of this phase obviously) migrate existing lists from RH mailman to Hosted.
On 2/19/08, Jon Stanley jonstanley@gmail.com wrote:
As for the original post, I wasn't thinking that we were just talking about hosted here. I thought that we were eventually (not as part of this phase obviously) migrate existing lists from RH mailman to Hosted.
There's been some discussion on that point, but basically we decided that we weren't ready to take the step of moving the Fedora lists away from RH.
Jeff
On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
On 2/19/08, Jon Stanley jonstanley@gmail.com wrote:
As for the original post, I wasn't thinking that we were just talking about hosted here. I thought that we were eventually (not as part of this phase obviously) migrate existing lists from RH mailman to Hosted.
There's been some discussion on that point, but basically we decided that we weren't ready to take the step of moving the Fedora lists away from RH.
<nod> we're getting closer to where we could but I believe the board has put Dennis in charge of looking at our options for that so any questions about policy with that would be good to go to him.
-Mike
On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 09:45 -0600, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
- What should the policy on list names be? My proposal:
A) All list names must be prefixed with "<projectname>-". B) All list names must be suffixed with "-list". C) Lists may optionally have something between the prefix and suffix, as long as it's not obviously vulgar or obscene.
Just pinging on this issue, since we're pretty close to getting it up AFAIK.
(Personally, I prefer @lists.)
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 09:45 -0600, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
- What should the policy on list names be? My proposal:
A) All list names must be prefixed with "<projectname>-". B) All list names must be suffixed with "-list". C) Lists may optionally have something between the prefix and suffix, as long as it's not obviously vulgar or obscene.
Just pinging on this issue, since we're pretty close to getting it up AFAIK.
(Personally, I prefer @lists.)
Alrighty, lets just do a +1 -1 and we'll count them up at the next meeting
For @lists.fedoraproject.org:
for -lists@fedorahosted.org:
-Mike
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 14:34 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 09:45 -0600, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
- What should the policy on list names be? My proposal:
A) All list names must be prefixed with "<projectname>-". B) All list names must be suffixed with "-list". C) Lists may optionally have something between the prefix and suffix, as long as it's not obviously vulgar or obscene.
Just pinging on this issue, since we're pretty close to getting it up AFAIK.
(Personally, I prefer @lists.)
Alrighty, lets just do a +1 -1 and we'll count them up at the next meeting
For @lists.fedoraproject.org:
+1
for -lists@fedorahosted.org:
-1
-Mike
---Brett.
Calling you stupid is an insult to stupid people! -- Wanda, "A Fish Called Wanda"
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 14:34:17 -0600 (CST) Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
For @lists.fedoraproject.org:
+1
On Thu, 2008-02-28 at 14:34 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 09:45 -0600, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
- What should the policy on list names be? My proposal:
A) All list names must be prefixed with "<projectname>-". B) All list names must be suffixed with "-list". C) Lists may optionally have something between the prefix and suffix, as long as it's not obviously vulgar or obscene.
Just pinging on this issue, since we're pretty close to getting it up AFAIK.
(Personally, I prefer @lists.)
Alrighty, lets just do a +1 -1 and we'll count them up at the next meeting
For @lists.fedoraproject.org:
+1
for -lists@fedorahosted.org:
-1
-sv
Mike McGrath wrote:
Alrighty, lets just do a +1 -1 and we'll count them up at the next meeting
For @lists.fedoraproject.org:
+1
for -lists@fedorahosted.org:
-1
Cheers,
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgrath@redhat.com wrote:
For @lists.fedoraproject.org:
+1
for -lists@fedorahosted.org:
-1
~Jeffrey
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 02:34:17PM -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote:
On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 09:45 -0600, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
- What should the policy on list names be? My proposal:
A) All list names must be prefixed with "<projectname>-". B) All list names must be suffixed with "-list". C) Lists may optionally have something between the prefix and suffix, as long as it's not obviously vulgar or obscene.
Just pinging on this issue, since we're pretty close to getting it up AFAIK.
(Personally, I prefer @lists.)
Alrighty, lets just do a +1 -1 and we'll count them up at the next meeting
For @lists.fedoraproject.org:
+1
luke
infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org