irc-support-sig December 2011

irc-support-sig@lists.fedoraproject.org

6 participants
16 discussions

[irc-support-sig] #93: Affix
by fedora-badges 15 Dec '11

15 Dec '11

#93: Affix ---------------------+------------------------------------------------------ Reporter: shaihuld | Owner: Type: feedback | Status: new Priority: minor | Milestone: Fedora 16 Version: | Severity: Positive Keywords: | ---------------------+------------------------------------------------------ This feedback is: {{{ [X] Positive [ ] Negative [ ] Neutral }}} My IRC nick is: Shai_- Please briefly describe the interaction that caused you to file this ticket: Needed help to reinstall GRUB2 on my MBR, Affix helped me Please note other IRC nicks that are involved in this interaction: Affix Please describe what action or positive change could be adopted based on this feedback: none just perfect Any additional notes or logs: Thanks for your feedback! -- Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/93> irc-support-sig <irc://irc.freenode.net/#fedora> Feedback and tracking of issues for the folks who try and improve support in #fedora on irc.freenode.net

1 2

[irc-support-sig] #88: User Psi-Jack helping to track an installer bug
by fedora-badges 08 Dec '11

08 Dec '11

#88: User Psi-Jack helping to track an installer bug --------------------------------------------+------------------------------- Reporter: bjensen | Owner: Type: feedback | Status: new Priority: major | Milestone: Fedora 16 Version: | Severity: Positive Keywords: Anaconda multihead dual buttons | --------------------------------------------+------------------------------- Please fill in this template fully and provide all requested information. Incomplete tickets may be dropped. This feedback is: {{{ [X] Positive [ ] Negative [ ] Neutral }}} My IRC nick is: EvilBob Please briefly describe the interaction that caused you to file this ticket: The user Psi-Jack and I got off on the wrong foot a bit. Worked past that initial bump in the road and found he was seeing an installer(anaconda) bug on some dual display systems that User Edgan had described to me a few days ago. Please note other IRC nicks that are involved in this interaction: Psi-Jack, Edgan Please describe what action or positive change could be adopted based on this feedback: Taking a breath once in a while and seeing what the other is saying helps so much we all should do it more. Also remember it's just IRC and a little bit of a sense of humor is a good thing. Any additional notes or logs: Anaconda bug, buttons do not render and/or are not clickable on some multi-head systems. Workaround is to disconnect the secondary display. Thanks for your feedback! -- Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/88> irc-support-sig <irc://irc.freenode.net/#fedora> Feedback and tracking of issues for the folks who try and improve support in #fedora on irc.freenode.net

1 3

[irc-support-sig] #92: abstrakt is acting out
by fedora-badges 08 Dec '11

08 Dec '11

#92: abstrakt is acting out -----------------------+---------------------------------------------------- Reporter: bodhizazen | Owner: Type: feedback | Status: new Priority: major | Milestone: Fedora 14 Version: | Severity: Neutral Keywords: | -----------------------+---------------------------------------------------- Please fill in this template fully and provide all requested information. Incomplete tickets may be dropped. This feedback is: {{{ [ ] Positive [ ] Negative [ X ] Neutral }}} My IRC nick is: bodhizazen Please briefly describe the interaction that caused you to file this ticket: I know people get frustrated, but this was over the top. Please note other IRC nicks that are involved in this interaction: To me the outburst seems unprovoked Please describe what action or positive change could be adopted based on this feedback: I am too new here to know if you track this kind of thing, or if you give any sort of warning or what not. Perhaps a polite PM to abstrakt ? Any additional notes or logs: 12/1/11 11:03 PM .:Prowell:. abstrakt: did you try avidemux? .:abstrakt:. Prowell, yes yes and fucking yes .:abstrakt:. i've tried fucking EVERYTHING man .:abstrakt:. it's all crap .:EvilBob:. Wow .:@fedbot:. Hey, we want to make the channel better. How about dropping us a note and let us know how you feel, good or bad. https://fedorahosted.org /irc-support-sig/ .:abstrakt:. OpenShot is about the best that I've used so far, but it's still a very far cry away from what I need .:EvilBob:. Take a nap .:EvilBob:. Your language is not needed here .:abstrakt:. EvilBob, this coming from you the complete dickhead of the channel? .:EvilBob:. this is a family channel .:abstrakt:. hahaha, family .:Fieldy:. take a break man. .:abstrakt:. that's why you're an asshole all the time This kind of personal attack was out of line. Thanks for your feedback! -- Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/92> irc-support-sig <irc://irc.freenode.net/#fedora> Feedback and tracking of issues for the folks who try and improve support in #fedora on irc.freenode.net

1 1

Summary/Minutes from today's irc support sig meeting (2011-12-08)
by Kevin Fenzi 08 Dec '11

08 Dec '11

============================================= #fedora-meeting: IRC Support SIG (2011-12-08) ============================================= Meeting started by nirik at 17:00:04 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2011-12-08/irc-support-sig.… Meeting summary --------------- * init process (nirik, 17:00:04) * Week in review (nirik, 17:04:23) * LINK: http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html (nirik, 17:04:23) * Tickets (nirik, 17:07:08) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1 (nirik, 17:07:08) * Revamping sig ideas/discussion (nirik, 17:13:15) * ACTION: Please add thoughts and ideas to the list thread on this subject (nirik, 17:18:36) * Holiday meetings (nirik, 17:21:07) * meet on 15th, then skip 22nd and 29th, and meet again on the 5th. (nirik, 17:21:28) * Open Floor (nirik, 17:23:07) Meeting ended at 17:29:30 UTC. Action Items ------------ * Please add thoughts and ideas to the list thread on this subject Action Items, by person ----------------------- * **UNASSIGNED** * Please add thoughts and ideas to the list thread on this subject People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * nirik (51) * EvilBob (36) * Sonar_Gal (9) * zodbot (5) * Khaytsus (3) * N3LRX (1) * jsmith (1) -- 17:00:04 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2011-12-08) 17:00:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Dec 8 17:00:04 2011 UTC. The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:00:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:00:04 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig 17:00:04 <nirik> #topic init process 17:00:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig' 17:00:14 <nirik> who all is around for an irc support sig meeting? 17:00:19 * N3LRX 17:00:28 * nirik is gonna go grab a cup of coffee... back in a min. 17:04:17 <nirik> ok, shall we get started? 17:04:23 <nirik> #topic Week in review 17:04:23 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html 17:05:07 <nirik> anything anyone wants to point out from the last week? 17:05:18 <nirik> pretty busy it's seemed lately. 17:06:46 <EvilBob> Same old Same 17:06:48 * nirik listens to the crickets. 17:07:08 <nirik> #topic Tickets 17:07:08 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1 17:07:10 * jsmith has nothing new to add 17:07:15 <nirik> we have 2 tickets this week: 17:07:25 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/88 17:07:28 <zodbot> nirik: #88 (User Psi-Jack helping to track an installer bug) - irc-support-sig - Trac 17:07:39 <EvilBob> that is old 17:07:40 <nirik> oh, thats old 17:07:46 * nirik failed closing it. 17:08:05 <nirik> ok, we have 1 ticket then. ;) 17:08:09 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/92 17:08:10 <zodbot> nirik: #92 (abstrakt is acting out) - irc-support-sig - Trac 17:08:21 <EvilBob> You will be issued a beating later 17:08:59 <nirik> ok, so this was a ticket filed on a user who was causing disruption... 17:09:00 <EvilBob> Limited interaction with the user named in the subject and they became unhinged 17:09:12 <nirik> yeah, but they have not been back since that I see. 17:09:24 <EvilBob> It was quite odd looking back on it at the time 17:09:33 <nirik> yeah, I looked at the logs... 17:09:40 <nirik> they freaked out very quickly/oddly. 17:10:16 <nirik> anyhow, I don't know that there is much to do here except perhaps try and use 'quiet' sooner? 17:10:23 * Khaytsus 17:10:33 <EvilBob> No ops were around 17:10:40 <nirik> yeah. 17:10:50 <nirik> I had stepped away to eat dinner. 17:11:03 <EvilBob> bodhi asked me about it and let me know he was filing a ticket on it. 17:12:13 <nirik> yeah. so, close and try and do better at catching this sort of thing sooner? 17:12:16 * EvilBob has been contemplating changing his nick to "heygofyourself" based on some of the users lately 17:12:32 <EvilBob> ;) 17:12:33 <nirik> I don't think that will help anything. ;) 17:12:53 <EvilBob> Yeah... doubtful 17:13:15 <nirik> #topic Revamping sig ideas/discussion 17:13:26 * nirik looks for opsec / dwebb. 17:13:46 <EvilBob> I've not seen him 17:13:47 <nirik> There was a discussion on the list recently about working on formalizing and revamping things. 17:14:01 <nirik> a very few folks responded. :( 17:14:10 <EvilBob> we didn't act on his stuff on his schedule so I imagine he is pouting 17:14:33 <Khaytsus> He wants _action_ but can't say what action..... 17:14:43 <nirik> well, I was happy to discuss some of his ideas. In fact I think formalizing/redoing things in some parts would be great. 17:14:50 * Khaytsus pictures the inflated waving arms guy by every used car lot... 17:16:22 <nirik> in any case, I think we need several people driving it forward. 17:16:25 <EvilBob> No one likes him but me and mharris so I guess it's a case of who cares anymore 17:16:37 <nirik> and I don't know that I have the time to draft things, but would be happy to look at drafts. 17:17:35 <EvilBob> Push for another week 17:18:21 <EvilBob> we need to meet next week, I assume we will be not meeting the week after people getting ready for the holiday 17:18:36 <nirik> #action Please add thoughts and ideas to the list thread on this subject 17:18:45 <nirik> yeah, likely not. 17:18:56 <EvilBob> meeting the last thursday is pointless everyone will be on Holiday/Vacation 17:19:40 * Sonar_Gal sneaks in 17:19:55 <EvilBob> So meeting the 15th then not again until the 5th? 17:20:23 <Sonar_Gal> I won't be here the 22nd or 29th. Driving both days 22nd driving north 29th driving home 17:20:39 <EvilBob> the week following Christmas we generally need all hands on deck if possible 17:20:53 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: Yeah that is what I was thinking for most 17:20:58 <Sonar_Gal> I will be away for Xmas this year 17:20:59 <nirik> yeah, sounds fine to me. 17:21:07 <nirik> #topic Holiday meetings 17:21:12 <Sonar_Gal> 1st time in 5 years 17:21:27 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: SOrry to hear that... 17:21:28 <nirik> #info meet on 15th, then skip 22nd and 29th, and meet again on the 5th. 17:21:29 <EvilBob> ;) 17:21:46 <Sonar_Gal> EvilBob, I am excited about xmas this year 17:21:59 <Sonar_Gal> nirik, agreed there 17:22:09 <EvilBob> +1 17:22:33 <Sonar_Gal> +1 17:22:36 <EvilBob> I need to run, I'll catch the buffer 17:22:53 <EvilBob> Oh I have a little more time 17:23:07 <nirik> #topic Open Floor 17:23:12 <nirik> any open floor items? 17:23:28 <EvilBob> Quit helping people that are being helped 17:25:50 <EvilBob> two and three people helping the same person is less than constructive 17:25:50 <EvilBob> go count toothpicks or something 17:25:50 <nirik> too many cooks. 17:25:50 <Sonar_Gal> yeah always to many cooks in the kitchen 17:25:51 <EvilBob> If you need to advise, tell the helper don't muddy the water 17:25:51 <Sonar_Gal> People feel like they are being thrown against a wall when 3-4 people go at them 17:25:51 <nirik> yep. 17:25:51 <nirik> thats always been an issue. ;( 17:25:51 <EvilBob> nirik: Do you think fpaste --sysinfo will help us get some background? 17:25:51 <EvilBob> that is an example 17:25:57 <EvilBob> rather than jumping in giving the suggestion to the user 17:26:09 <nirik> sure, can help... of course in some cases the question makes the answer obvious... 17:26:40 <EvilBob> help the leper... 17:26:43 <EvilBob> helper 17:27:03 * nirik ponders. Some people do have bits of their computers falling off, so... 17:27:07 <EvilBob> we all get tired, it's a way to train new blood 17:27:44 <EvilBob> That's all I have 17:28:15 <nirik> ok. Do go and comment on the list thread everyone... 17:28:16 <EvilBob> BTW, leper was an honest typo, just found it funny 17:28:25 * nirik will call it a meeting in a minute if nothing else comes up 17:29:26 <nirik> Thanks for coming everyone! 17:29:30 <nirik> #endmeeting

1 0

re: "Getting the ball rolling.."
by warren 03 Dec '11

03 Dec '11

While I realize there's a large possibility this will simply be ignored by anyone in a position to do anything about it, I'm starting the thread anyway so that these things are said, there's a record of it and for anyone else who wants to point out similar problems in the future to reference back to. There are many large holes in the Fedora community and, in particular, its largely improperly regulated IRC presence. There is a quote which has been attributed to Stan Lee and Franklin Roosevelt "With power, comes great responsibility". Keeping this in mind, within any organization there will be obvious reasons for some to have more power than others in certain affairs, this is logical and understandable to maintain sane continuity. It's also reasonable to assume that those with these various powers have the responsibility to exercise said powers effectively, intelligently and fairly. This is not and simply has not been the case in either the #fedora-* or #fedora-unity* channels. This is an opinion shared by many intelligent people who have passed through the doors of both organizations for some time. It's certainly a problem and a concern that seems to be regularly brushed under the rug for fear of stepping on someones ego, threatening the power structure, fear of change or lack of knowing exactly what to do or how to implement to change it. To me and others that share this opinion is it of paramount importance to find a solution and apply it asap. I do realize that the main point of #fedora is not to make users happy or implement any certain policy, but to provide a diverse testing platform for a commercial product (RHEL) that only a select few in the community actually benefit from financially. While this end result won't change, the support policy in #fedora must. I'm not one for mincing words or pretending everything is "ok" when it clearly is not. I'm as likely to admit my own mistakes, errors and frustrated or bad behavior as I am to point it out directly and curtly in others. I also don't expect my ideas or opinions to be blindly accepted or considered without thoughtful community input, but I also don't expect to be wholesale ignored when my concerns are voiced either, as has been the case in the past. The issues with Khaystus and just brushing it under the carpet and told to "ignore it" is just simply not an option in my opinion, it's irresponsible and shows a lack of leadership and responsibility all around. It's childish and pointless to carry on an issue and refuse to deal with it for years on end. Ignoring it won't make it go away or change the behaviors which led to it in the first place. If I were a normal user that never contributed my time or money, only complained and never showed any signs of thoughtfulness or change, I could understand simply ignoring me and moving on. Instead I'm insisting that the issues be addressed in a reasonable and peaceful manner. This too seems to be widely unaccepted in favor of just ignoring me instead and just keeping things "business-as-usual". I'm not attacking anyone in particular, even Khaystus, I *still* have nothing against him other than his seeming need to hold on to whatever his grudge is with me and even more so by the community of otherwise intelligent people that tolerate that behavior in someone who is supposed to be a mediator. To me, it's akin to asking someone who can't find a job to help you find one, it simply doesn't make sense. I have a verified history in the Fedora community from my financial and time support, howtos, and getting others involved that goes back to the days of #redhat where |jef| (spoleeba) was a regular op. I also have a history of frustrated and upset or abusive behavior in #fedora at times. Frustrated because I do feel ignored and that things are not changing and have not changed in this arena for some time. I don't think my concerns are completely out in left field or unsubstantiated because I have talked with other respected members who feel the same exact way. Ultimately, I love Fedora and Red Hat and I want to be a part of a community that is self-responsible and teaches that behavior to others. Some ways I see accomplishing this is in the areas of problem solving techniques, research skills and best practices and methods so that, as a group, we can all "teach a man to fish" so they may feel empowered to contribute back to the community and feel supported in that effort while maintaining a professional and helpful approach. This is something that everyone can and should be taking back into their normal "real" lives. In this vein of thinking I propose the following not-so-easy undertakings to start the ball rolling: 1.. Full restructuring of the IRC help forum and a written clear policy as to how this will be accomplished, including: a. Publicly accessible "channel behavior guidelines" which all must read and follow, regardless of "status". b. Agreed central help resources, forums, FP.org wiki, and other tools to present a more unified public support structure. c. Abuse/sanction policies I believe I have the desire, time, skills, etc to help in this area which would put an abrupt halt to most frustrations felt on my part. Having said all this, words are cheap and actions are what give us something worth appreciating and feeling we're contributing towards something worthwhile. That being said, I'll await to see if I'm once again ignored or if these concerns are taken seriously this time. Regards, -Warren (opsec/zodiac) ---------------------------------------- Below is my posting to the fedora-ops list about 1.5 years ago when Evilbob had nominated me for ops in #fedora and I was asked to comment. Since that time no one has successfully been added to the #fedora ops list to the best of my knowledge, though not without several attempted nominations of others being shot down as well. .-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Plan for tomorrow's irc-support-sig meeting (2010-08-26) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:20:51 -0600 From: warren <warren(a)fedoraos.org> Reply-To: warren(a)fedoraos.org To: List for the IRC support SIG <irc-support-sig(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> Hello, I'm not sure I'll be able to or if I'm required to attend this meeting at 16:00UTC/09:00PST. But I've written my feelings and ideas below pertaining to the topic(s) outlined by Nirik (Kevin). I've been with the Fedora Project from the day the door opened. I used to help daily with either howtos, direct channel help or providing resources. After prolonged feelings of frustration and helplessness and feeling there was little I could do anymore to help, I've been fairly inactive in #fedora channels. While I've certainly not been a model member of the community at times, I have thought a lot about why this is and discussed it privately with a few of the people named below and others. These are a few things I've noticed in these past 5 or so years... Being an operator to me means simply that you have control over your irrational self and your emotions, that you've developed the skills to not take things personally, view situations from an objective perspective and act with fairness and an unbiased personal attitude consistently. Being an operator gives a person a certain power, which most will end up abusing in some way. Being an operator comes with a responsibility and, in my opinion, is not for "honorary" or similar purposes. Being an operator should *require* regular active participation, management and discussions on improvement, delegation/completion of tasks, progress reports on current projects. Power for the sake of having power seems a frivolous trinket to me. My personal list of those I have seen truly have what it takes to be an operator anywhere: anvil, zcat, nirik, mharris, jef (spoleeba), che, damaestro, kanarip, ivazquez, mutk, sonar_guy If I've excluded someone I've either forgotten them (as I went by memory) or they don't meet the above criteria. I don't have anything against anyone involved with or visiting the channel(s), this includes khaystus and thomasj who seem to have personal vendettas against me. That being said, all operators have valid ideas and opinions as well which should always be considered by the group. #fedora - In this channel I see that on-topic chatter should be enforced fairly regularly and with the least amount of noise as possible to accomplish the goals below. In fairness to all there should also be a set amount of acceptable "noobism" before it's sent elsewhere for a while. To help end users: 1. Become more responsible user (teach a man to fish) 2. Address technical issues in a logical and sane process 3. Help them file bug reports 4. Help them become more involved in the community #fedora-social - the only "rules" that seem to be necessary are ones pertaining to spam, or otherwise making the channel unusable. discussing *any* topic should not be off topic or banned. everyone has some ideas or many that are going to be received by someone negatively, this is simply unavoidable. the only logical course of action is the use of personal /ignore lists when we are that annoyed by someone (excluding ops, as they do no have this luxury). However, Freenode guidelines should also be followed. 1. All off topic material in #fedora 2. Philosophical discussion 3. Ranting, complaining, venting (including topics which may be offensive to some). 4. Personal/public "how's it going" chatting Operator proposal: 1. Review the current operator list define a list of duties, goals, etc for operators and fill them. 2. Have an easily accessible/viewable list that outlines each operator and their duties or contribution(s) 3. Have weekly/bi-weekly logged meetings regarding projects, solutions, proposals, duties, etc 4. Periodic collective reviews of channel bans, problem users, operator duties, etc -Warren (opsec/zodiac) Kevin Fenzi wrote: | Here's what I have for an agenda for tomorrow's meeting, which will be | held at 16:00UTC in #fedora-meeting on irc.freenode.net. | | Feel free to reply to this with additional topics, or bring them up in | the "open floor" section of the meeting. | | #topic Week in review | http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html | #topic should we add any new ops now? | #topic how should new ops be nominated? | #topic we need a rule about how long an op can be inactive | #topic thomasj be removed from op status because of his inactivity | #topic all #fedora ops be removed from op status in #fedora-social | #topic SIG lead be elected and have a set term | #topic fcami nomination | #topic opsec nomination | #topic trac instance setup | #topic Open Floor | | kevin | | ------------------------- | | _______________________________________________ | irc-support-sig mailing list | irc-support-sig(a)lists.fedoraproject.org | https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/irc-support-sig

5 7

Fwd: Re: "Getting the ball rolling.."
by warren 03 Dec '11

03 Dec '11

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: "Getting the ball rolling.." Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 11:13:38 -0800 From: warren <warren(a)fedoraos.org> Reply-To: warren(a)fedoraos.org To: Kevin Fenzi <kevin(a)scrye.com> On 12/03/2011 10:23 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 19:24:15 -0800 warren <warren(a)fedoraos.org> > wrote: > >> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> >> Kevin, >> >> Here's where I'm currently at (and I will try to make it as >> crystal clear as possible) before we even go any further. >> >> 1. This is a large undertaking, not a one man task and >> definitely not something only I see. It's *going* to ruffle >> feathers because things *will* change if this path is taken. You >> know as well as I do that change is most often not well accepted, >> regardless of intent or need. > > Agreed. People like status quo. Hopefully we can look beyond that > though and see things that would help improve. > To me it's not about "hope" it's about coming to an agreement and deciding how it's *going to be* in fairness to *all* and moving towards that. "I fell and broke my front teeth, hopefully someday it will be fixed, I'll just have to wait and see." No. You go to the dentist and get it fixed. You make a rule and it gets stuck to. Period, no exceptions. Otherwise there is no order and things deteriorate again. And I do not exclude myself from this either, I and everyone else have the ability to decide how we're going to react or act. I can apologize for acting a certain way but the fact remains that when I do or say something I chose to do it and I can just as well choose the opposite. >> I do however agree that everything should be put to a vote, each >> item clearly stated, understood and voted for in a peer-viewable >> and organized manner. i.e. not hidden, obfuscated or obscured in >> any way. > > I'm not convinced voting is the way to go. I prefer reaching some > kind of consensus with a rough majority. With voting you get into: > Who can vote, how long do they need to consider items, what items > can be put up for a vote by whom, should votes be public or > private, etc. > > I would like to think that we could craft items such that at least > a rough majority of people would see the advantage in doing > them/switching to them. > I'm not sure what "some kind of consensus" is if it's not voting. Voting is a tally of consensus "should this guy be president?" yes or no? A clear, fair system is possible and can be arranged without too much effort. >> >> 2. You seem to be the only with with enough interest to even >> reply, > > Well, give it time. Some folks are busy... I'd say we should also > discuss this next week at the sig meeting as well. Perhaps in IRC > some folks who can't be bothered to subscribe here would chime in. > > waiting... >> save Thomasj who misread, misinterpreted and simply fired back >> negatively based on who I am, and not the content or context of >> the original email to this thread without the benefit of doubt or >> clarification that he understood what he thought he did. Granted, >> I should not have replied at all to him based on that alone. It >> seems we were both ignorant and still have work to do. >> >> 3. There are some issues with both FedoraProject.org and >> FedoraUnity.org pertaining directly to #fedora* IRC channels >> (I'll be reading the links you sent me later this evening, >> however I think I may have been the original author of at least >> one of them although Sonar_Guy posted it on my behalf). > > Yes, you wrote up at least the initial version of what became the > faq I think. :) Thanks! > Writing, thinking about solutions, noticing patterns and reactions is what I feel I do best, including changing my own attitude and personal patterns. I'm happy to drop old nonsense, move on and focus on things that matter and affect the situation positively. It may be hard to imagine, but anyone is capable of anything they put their mind and focus on. >> a. FedoraProject - Who is in control of #fedora* it's policies, >> procedures and direction? > > My understanding (and hopefully someone will correct me if I am > wrong) is that #fedora* on freenode is a official "group". meaning > the policies at: http://freenode.net/group_registration.shtml > Apply. So, ultimately, the Fedora group contact has control. In > practice I think the Board would be the ultimate aribiter and they > seem quite happy to allow this SIG to organize and setup policies > and process for #fedora as they see fit. For other #fedora* > channels, such policies (if any) are governed by the operators for > those channels. > Great, I'm not sure if there's an arbitration or dispute resolution mechanism in place as well but that might also need some consideration, not only for my own situation but for those that others face as well. Sweeping things under the carpet is bad practice and shows a certain lack of responsibility in my mind. Anyone in a position of power should be able to be trusted to make rational and clear decisions without letting snap reactions and judgments cloud things. >> b. FedoraUnity - Sadly, this project/group has never been well >> organized in any sane or official fashion, has only one person in >> control of the domains / structure & organization of content / >> top-level website CMS configuration which has caused friction >> between many (who I will not name but let them make their own >> statements), is not an official part of the FedoraProject and >> therefore can do "whatever" without any direct oversight or >> consequence by the FedoraProject. I've heard before on multiple >> occasions "No one can make any top level changes because it's >> been so highly customized none of us even know where to begin." >> Which I've seen myself having paid the hosting bill for a few >> years and helping manage aspects of the Zope/Plone website which >> is now horribly out of date. > > I think this is beyond the scope of this list/group. This again to me is sidestepping the issue and avoiding the obvious distaste you'll receive from others involved and with power at stake. This issue is certainly part of it because these help resources are continually referenced in #fedora, so yes, very relevant. Again I have ideas for solutions to this however, I don't want to put time or energy into something that will ultimately go nowhere. >> 4. The "good ol' boy" club attitude, looking the other way at bad >> behavior simply based on who offender is, what feet might be >> stepped on, who might be offended, etc rather than the actual >> behavior itself and whether it's acceptable. People concerned >> with maintaining power, driving the direction of things or >> stunting changes simply to control them have questionable >> intentions in my opinion. It should not matter if it's a channel >> op or someone who's just come in for the first time. > > Yes, agreed. > >> 5. Anyone not currently active on such a regular basis as >> required by the task they are in control of should be required >> to hand over the reigns to someone who is active and qualified >> for the task. You don't take on tasks or responsibilities that >> require ongoing attention then neglect or abandon them and >> perform them whenever it suits your fancy. This goes for >> everyone from ops to website maintainers, program coordinators, >> etc, really any job that requires regular attention. This is how >> things fall this badly into disrepair in the first place. > > Also agreed, however: This is a volunteer group. Peoples time > commitment varies as their other dayjob or life presses in. Also, > some tasks are not easy to define. To be an operator should > someone police the channel for 20 hours a week? 5? 1? 10min? And > would they 'clock in' or how do you keep track? > > If you are unable to help out in the channel at all for 2 weeks, > but then can help out a lot the next, should you have been > removed? > > > I think this sort of thing works much more when there are specific > deliverables: You must send a TPS report every friday or we fire > you. Instead of: you must help out as much as you are able to. > It is indeed volunteer, and before making such commitments it's up to the volunteer to accept full responsibility for any such commitments before accepting them. Making excuses about other obligations might work in an emergency situation, but not as a regular thing. That's a pattern and one that gets the entire project into disrepair if allowed to grow or become passively accepted. And again, problems are only solutions waiting to happen, not excuses waiting to happen. All of this can be sorted out with enough initiative and thought. I don't get too specific yet, because as I already stated, if no one cares, I'm not going to count grains of sand at the beach to determine how many we have. >> 6. As for dealing with users posting outdated, false, misleading >> or outright bad info, this is why I propose a unified help front >> that is 100% in control of the FedoraProject. Sending people to >> the FedoraProject Wiki for one thing, FedoraSolved for another, >> FedoraForum for yet another.. It's confusing and shows >> discontinuity to the new and existing users whether they realize >> it consciously or subconsciously. If there was a unified front >> and the channel policy was only to send people to these help >> resources it would flow much more smoothly. Please see >> #wordpress wordpress.org and/or talk to Freenode IRC operator >> Sivel for examples on how this might be accomplished. > > Well, I think this is again good in principal... but what if there > is a great other resource not on those sites that would really > help the user? Ignore it and tell them we have no info? > If there's another great resource, then we set up guidelines that are followed for what is an acceptable resource such as compiling from source, downloading random or incorrect rpms, suggesting that SELinux be disabled, turning off iptables.. etc. These are some common well-known things among the experienced and simply suggestions for such guidelines. After something passes these guidelines it can then be created, edited and formatted for inclusion in official help resources in a "work-flow" type scenario. There's clearly enough people in the community to make this happen with relative ease once a system is developed and in place. >> Again, I have lots of valid ideas and possible solutions for >> much of the above but yelling in an empty auditorium won't get >> anyone anywhere. If Fedora is to be the "best" in its product >> offering, support and general appeal then the work to this end >> never stops. The above items are clear indications to me and >> others in the community where change is badly needed. It's >> certainly possible, the only real question is if anyone else is >> willing to do the heavy lifting. > > Sure, lets see if others chime in... Let's. > > kevin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk7adUcACgkQI5ZhoGXYrD6BPQCeJdJEOqHIm6jZiVyWZoNhi4Xy zVAAn2F0TjDu28PRsSVcy5uQjOIaHtbb =eUPe -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0

re: "Getting the ball rolling.."
by warren 02 Dec '11

02 Dec '11

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 While I realize there's a large possibility this will simply be ignored by anyone in a position to do anything about it, I'm starting the thread anyway so that these things are said, there's a record of it and for anyone else who wants to point out similar problems in the future to reference back to. There are many large holes in the Fedora community and, in particular, its largely improperly regulated IRC presence. There is a quote which has been attributed to Stan Lee and Franklin Roosevelt "With power, comes great responsibility". Keeping this in mind, within any organization there will be obvious reasons for some to have more power than others in certain affairs, this is logical and understandable to maintain sane continuity. It's also reasonable to assume that those with these various powers have the responsibility to exercise said powers effectively, intelligently and fairly. This is not and simply has not been the case in either the #fedora-* or #fedora-unity* channels. This is an opinion shared by many intelligent people who have passed through the doors of both organizations for some time. It's certainly a problem and a concern that seems to be regularly brushed under the rug for fear of stepping on someones ego, threatening the power structure, fear of change or lack of knowing exactly what to do or how to implement to change it. To me and others that share this opinion is it of paramount importance to find a solution and apply it asap. I do realize that the main point of #fedora is not to make users happy or implement any certain policy, but to provide a diverse testing platform for a commercial product (RHEL) that only a select few in the community actually benefit from financially. While this end result won't change, the support policy in #fedora must. I'm not one for mincing words or pretending everything is "ok" when it clearly is not. I'm as likely to admit my own mistakes, errors and frustrated or bad behavior as I am to point it out directly and curtly in others. I also don't expect my ideas or opinions to be blindly accepted or considered without thoughtful community input, but I also don't expect to be wholesale ignored when my concerns are voiced either, as has been the case in the past. The issues with Khaystus and just brushing it under the carpet and told to "ignore it" is just simply not an option in my opinion, it's irresponsible and shows a lack of leadership and responsibility all around. It's childish and pointless to carry on an issue and refuse to deal with it for years on end. Ignoring it won't make it go away or change the behaviors which led to it in the first place. If I were a normal user that never contributed my time or money, only complained and never showed any signs of thoughtfulness or change, I could understand simply ignoring me and moving on. Instead I'm insisting that the issues be addressed in a reasonable and peaceful manner. This too seems to be widely unaccepted in favor of just ignoring me instead and just keeping things "business-as-usual". I'm not attacking anyone in particular, even Khaystus, I *still* have nothing against him other than his seeming need to hold on to whatever his grudge is with me and even more so by the community of otherwise intelligent people that tolerate that behavior in someone who is supposed to be a mediator. To me, it's akin to asking someone who can't find a job to help you find one, it simply doesn't make sense. I have a verified history in the Fedora community from my financial and time support, howtos, and getting others involved that goes back to the days of #redhat where |jef| (spoleeba) was a regular op. I also have a history of frustrated and upset or abusive behavior in #fedora at times. Frustrated because I do feel ignored and that things are not changing and have not changed in this arena for some time. I don't think my concerns are completely out in left field or unsubstantiated because I have talked with other respected members who feel the same exact way. Ultimately, I love Fedora and Red Hat and I want to be a part of a community that is self-responsible and teaches that behavior to others. Some ways I see accomplishing this is in the areas of problem solving techniques, research skills and best practices and methods so that, as a group, we can all "teach a man to fish" so they may feel empowered to contribute back to the community and feel supported in that effort while maintaining a professional and helpful approach. This is something that everyone can and should be taking back into their normal "real" lives. In this vein of thinking I propose the following not-so-easy undertakings to start the ball rolling: 1.. Full restructuring of the IRC help forum and a written clear policy as to how this will be accomplished, including: a. Publicly accessible "channel behavior guidelines" which all must read and follow, regardless of "status". b. Agreed central help resources, forums, FP.org wiki, and other tools to present a more unified public support structure. c. Abuse/sanction policies I believe I have the desire, time, skills, etc to help in this area which would put an abrupt halt to most frustrations felt on my part. Having said all this, words are cheap and actions are what give us something worth appreciating and feeling we're contributing towards something worthwhile. That being said, I'll await to see if I'm once again ignored or if these concerns are taken seriously this time. Regards, - -Warren (opsec/zodiac) - ---------------------------------------- Below is my posting to the fedora-ops list about 1.5 years ago when Evilbob had nominated me for ops in #fedora and I was asked to comment. Since that time no one has successfully been added to the #fedora ops list to the best of my knowledge, though not without several attempted nominations of others being shot down as well. .-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Plan for tomorrow's irc-support-sig meeting (2010-08-26) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:20:51 -0600 From: warren <warren(a)fedoraos.org> Reply-To: warren(a)fedoraos.org To: List for the IRC support SIG <irc-support-sig(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> Hello, I'm not sure I'll be able to or if I'm required to attend this meeting at 16:00UTC/09:00PST. But I've written my feelings and ideas below pertaining to the topic(s) outlined by Nirik (Kevin). I've been with the Fedora Project from the day the door opened. I used to help daily with either howtos, direct channel help or providing resources. After prolonged feelings of frustration and helplessness and feeling there was little I could do anymore to help, I've been fairly inactive in #fedora channels. While I've certainly not been a model member of the community at times, I have thought a lot about why this is and discussed it privately with a few of the people named below and others. These are a few things I've noticed in these past 5 or so years... Being an operator to me means simply that you have control over your irrational self and your emotions, that you've developed the skills to not take things personally, view situations from an objective perspective and act with fairness and an unbiased personal attitude consistently. Being an operator gives a person a certain power, which most will end up abusing in some way. Being an operator comes with a responsibility and, in my opinion, is not for "honorary" or similar purposes. Being an operator should *require* regular active participation, management and discussions on improvement, delegation/completion of tasks, progress reports on current projects. Power for the sake of having power seems a frivolous trinket to me. My personal list of those I have seen truly have what it takes to be an operator anywhere: anvil, zcat, nirik, mharris, jef (spoleeba), che, damaestro, kanarip, ivazquez, mutk, sonar_guy If I've excluded someone I've either forgotten them (as I went by memory) or they don't meet the above criteria. I don't have anything against anyone involved with or visiting the channel(s), this includes khaystus and thomasj who seem to have personal vendettas against me. That being said, all operators have valid ideas and opinions as well which should always be considered by the group. #fedora - In this channel I see that on-topic chatter should be enforced fairly regularly and with the least amount of noise as possible to accomplish the goals below. In fairness to all there should also be a set amount of acceptable "noobism" before it's sent elsewhere for a while. To help end users: 1. Become more responsible user (teach a man to fish) 2. Address technical issues in a logical and sane process 3. Help them file bug reports 4. Help them become more involved in the community #fedora-social - the only "rules" that seem to be necessary are ones pertaining to spam, or otherwise making the channel unusable. discussing *any* topic should not be off topic or banned. everyone has some ideas or many that are going to be received by someone negatively, this is simply unavoidable. the only logical course of action is the use of personal /ignore lists when we are that annoyed by someone (excluding ops, as they do no have this luxury). However, Freenode guidelines should also be followed. 1. All off topic material in #fedora 2. Philosophical discussion 3. Ranting, complaining, venting (including topics which may be offensive to some). 4. Personal/public "how's it going" chatting Operator proposal: 1. Review the current operator list define a list of duties, goals, etc for operators and fill them. 2. Have an easily accessible/viewable list that outlines each operator and their duties or contribution(s) 3. Have weekly/bi-weekly logged meetings regarding projects, solutions, proposals, duties, etc 4. Periodic collective reviews of channel bans, problem users, operator duties, etc - -Warren (opsec/zodiac) Kevin Fenzi wrote: | Here's what I have for an agenda for tomorrow's meeting, which will be | held at 16:00UTC in #fedora-meeting on irc.freenode.net. | | Feel free to reply to this with additional topics, or bring them up in | the "open floor" section of the meeting. | | #topic Week in review | http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html | #topic should we add any new ops now? | #topic how should new ops be nominated? | #topic we need a rule about how long an op can be inactive | #topic thomasj be removed from op status because of his inactivity | #topic all #fedora ops be removed from op status in #fedora-social | #topic SIG lead be elected and have a set term | #topic fcami nomination | #topic opsec nomination | #topic trac instance setup | #topic Open Floor | | kevin | | ------------------------- | | _______________________________________________ | irc-support-sig mailing list | irc-support-sig(a)lists.fedoraproject.org | https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/irc-support-sig -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk7YMAUACgkQI5ZhoGXYrD6DbACfVg2EUAtPeXZ15ZCvsMNnzQg3 XeMAmwauD4uIxoU/gL2PaY9PtZQqDSUx =U4Kr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

3 2

Meeting Summary/Minutes for 2011-12-01 meeting
by Kevin Fenzi 01 Dec '11

01 Dec '11

============================================= #fedora-meeting: IRC Support SIG (2011-12-01) ============================================= Meeting started by nirik at 17:00:10 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2011-12-01/irc-support-sig.… Meeting summary --------------- * init process (nirik, 17:00:10) * Week in review (nirik, 17:05:50) * LINK: http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html (nirik, 17:05:51) * LINK: http://freenode.net/ (EvilBob, 17:12:45) * Tickets (nirik, 17:14:24) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1 (nirik, 17:14:25) * will close and reopen if more info/action requested. (nirik, 17:23:24) * close ticket pending anymore info or thoughts from reporter. (nirik, 17:40:49) * try and be more polite pointing rawhide users to #fedora-qa (nirik, 17:45:01) * we all agree to try and be more professional when stepping away from a problem we no longer wish to help with. (nirik, 18:04:25) * Open Floor (nirik, 18:04:31) Meeting ended at 18:20:23 UTC. Action Items ------------ Action Items, by person ----------------------- * **UNASSIGNED** * (none) People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * nirik (127) * EvilBob (61) * Khaytsus (51) * dwebb (36) * jsmith (35) * bodhi_zazen (16) * zodbot (13) * Southern_Gentlem (10) * blloyd (10) * dcr226 (6) * Sonar_Gal (5) * Sonar_Guy (3) * ElderDryas (2) -- 17:00:10 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2011-12-01) 17:00:10 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Dec 1 17:00:10 2011 UTC. The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:00:10 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:00:10 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig 17:00:10 <nirik> #topic init process 17:00:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig' 17:00:23 <nirik> who all is around for a irc support sig meeting? 17:01:24 * nirik listens to the crickets. 17:01:52 * nirik runs to get another cup of coffee. back in a min. 17:02:58 * jsmith is here 17:03:17 * dcr226 flicks wads of paper at jsmith from the back of the room 17:03:29 * EvilBob 17:03:55 * Southern_Gentlem 17:03:59 * Sonar_Gal sneaks in 17:05:02 * Sonar_Gal passes the platter of bacon around the room 17:05:39 * nirik is back. 17:05:43 <nirik> ok, shall we get started? 17:05:49 <Southern_Gentlem> yep 17:05:50 <nirik> #topic Week in review 17:05:51 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html 17:06:06 <nirik> thanks to Sonar_Guy getting the stats back up and working. ;) 17:06:26 <nirik> a pretty busy week it seemed, lots of people talking. 17:07:01 <nirik> anything folks want to point out from the previous week? 17:07:19 * Sonar_Guy 17:07:22 <Southern_Gentlem> just the normal spammers 17:07:37 <EvilBob> and scammers 17:07:50 <dcr226> and hammers? 17:07:52 <nirik> yeah. 17:08:03 * nirik breaks out the hammer pants. 17:08:08 <dcr226> hahaha 17:08:12 <jsmith> I was a bit of bad treatment one day... 17:08:24 * jsmith goes looking through his logs 17:08:31 <nirik> jsmith: hum? 17:08:51 <jsmith> nirik: On the 26th, there were a number of instances where folks weren't excellent to each other 17:09:18 <nirik> ah bummer. ;( Do we have tickets on those? or should we discuss them in general now? 17:09:18 <jsmith> nirik: I heard complaints from both the person who felt he was being treated poorly, as well as a couple of other people in the channel 17:09:32 <jsmith> I asked the person in question to open a ticket if they felt they were being mistreated 17:09:37 <Southern_Gentlem> jsmith, and it was -social not #fedora correct 17:09:38 <jsmith> I haven't followed up to see if a ticket was opened 17:09:54 <jsmith> Yeah, I'm fairly sure it was in -social 17:10:24 <nirik> ah, ok. 17:10:28 * nirik was looking in the wrong log. 17:10:44 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik, lam h 17:10:53 <jsmith> I was trying to avoid the computer at the time, so I wasn't really paying attention, and only looked later after I saw the complaints 17:10:58 <nirik> ah yes, that was poor all aroung. 17:11:09 <blloyd> I'm curious: most channels mark indiividuals like nirik with either Ops or Voice, but not the Fedora channel. how come? 17:11:28 <nirik> blloyd: freenode actually recommends against doing that... 17:11:49 <Southern_Gentlem> blloyd, we try to follow freenode recomendation on that 17:12:22 <blloyd> ok, missed that. Can you point to the rec, because I have missed it (and thus am not in compliance with it, nor are several others I know). 17:12:35 <dcr226> jsmith, so you get folks /msg you in relation to irc issues? 17:12:43 <nirik> jsmith: there is a ticket on that... shall we discuss it when we get to it in tickets? 17:12:44 <jsmith> dcr226: All the time 17:12:45 <EvilBob> http://freenode.net/ 17:13:03 <nirik> blloyd: http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml and the 'don't keep operator privs' 17:13:10 <jsmith> dcr226: I'd say a good 15 to 20 percent of my time gets eaten up in dealing with personality conflicts 17:13:22 * dcr226 passes jsmith umode +g 17:13:27 <blloyd> will take that offline. Will reread thanks. Back to real topics. 17:13:39 <nirik> blloyd: no worries. thanks for asking about it. 17:14:07 <nirik> ok, on to tickets? 17:14:21 <jsmith> Sure... 17:14:24 <nirik> #topic Tickets 17:14:25 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1 17:14:29 <dcr226> jsmith, surely you are too busy to mess about with that stuff...I'd guess people see your nick in the channel and think "I'm tellin teacher"..I'd just point them straight at the trac ;-) 17:14:45 <nirik> lets do them in numeric order. 17:14:57 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/83 17:15:00 <zodbot> nirik: #83 (Kudos for EvilBob!) - irc-support-sig - Trac 17:15:09 * EvilBob ;) 17:15:26 <nirik> kudos for EvilBob figuring out a module issue. 17:15:33 <EvilBob> Was a quick and easy 17:15:49 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/84 17:15:49 <EvilBob> User knew what they wanted, was willing to follow clear directions 17:15:49 <zodbot> nirik: #84 (Thanks to EvilBob for support and humor.) - irc-support-sig - Trac 17:16:01 <nirik> another kudo, although less specific. ;) 17:16:20 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/85 17:16:21 <zodbot> nirik: #85 (bodhi_zazen was very patient and helpful today.) - irc-support-sig - Trac 17:16:33 <nirik> kudo for bodhi_zazen 17:16:53 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/86 17:16:54 <zodbot> nirik: #86 (Great assistance received on the channel!) - irc-support-sig - Trac 17:16:56 <nirik> kudo for dcr226 17:17:01 <EvilBob> 84 was a response to another user commenting on the stuffiness of the channel in the past 17:17:16 * Khaytsus 17:17:32 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/87 17:17:34 <zodbot> nirik: #87 (Comments on certain users) - irc-support-sig - Trac 17:17:38 <nirik> this is a neutral ticket. 17:18:00 <nirik> I asked some questions/added some comments, but got no reply. 17:18:01 <bodhi_zazen> thanks nirik 17:18:07 <EvilBob> It's a bullshit ticket 17:18:44 <Khaytsus> Gnome Shell works with dual monitors? Didn't know that ;) 17:18:50 <EvilBob> User is part of a clique with an agenda, I missed the relationship and fell for their crap 17:19:11 <jsmith> Khaytsus: It does 17:19:20 <Khaytsus> jsmith: New to >3.0? 17:19:29 <Khaytsus> I seem to recall some problems there previously 17:19:31 <nirik> I think we can learn from this: we need to be better about pointing people to other support resources (ie, if someone asks about something no one knows about, point them to lists/etc) 17:19:43 <jsmith> Khaytsus: It's worked for me on dual-monitor systems since before 3.0 shipped 17:20:04 <EvilBob> The user that was propped up in the ticket never helped the reporting user in #fedora or in any other channel I could find 17:20:07 <Khaytsus> k, maybe some specific environment.... or maybe third party drivers.. Anyway :) 17:20:24 <nirik> anyhow, I'm for closing this, since they didn't reply in 2 weeks. 17:20:35 <jsmith> EvilBob: Do you have anything to back up your assertions that this was a "propped up user" or part of SILO? 17:20:36 <EvilBob> It was clearly a frame job 17:20:50 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: Helped him find the #fedora channel to troll? 17:21:23 <EvilBob> jsmith: the user given props is part of that clique 17:21:30 <nirik> jsmith: they mentioned that another user was helpfull and always provided them answers, but that user is part of SILO and never helped them in #fedora. 17:22:16 <jsmith> Just because a SILO user helped them doesn't necesssarily make them a prop. 17:22:26 <jsmith> I'd be careful about painting people with a broad brush. 17:22:27 <nirik> so, there is at least some connection. I don't know that it matters to me, I'd just be curious to hear their answers to my questions. 17:22:27 <EvilBob> jsmith: and the reporting user made the mistake of publicly directing another user to that group's channel a some time before this reported situation. 17:22:38 <jsmith> Anyhoo... moving on... 17:22:55 <nirik> yeah, if nothing else here, close and re-open if they provide more thoughts/info? 17:23:09 <jsmith> Sounds fair 17:23:24 <nirik> #info will close and reopen if more info/action requested. 17:23:32 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/88 17:23:33 <zodbot> nirik: #88 (User Psi-Jack helping to track an installer bug) - irc-support-sig - Trac 17:23:42 <nirik> this was a kudos to psi-jack and edgan. 17:23:55 <EvilBob> Yeah dualhead install issue 17:23:58 <blloyd> Khaytsus: gnome shell SOMETIMES works with dual monitors. When it breaks, it is a nightmare. 17:24:13 <Khaytsus> Busy week.. I wonder if people took turkey week off and installed 16? :) 17:24:18 <EvilBob> disable/unplug the secondary display and all is good 17:24:27 <nirik> Khaytsus: we skipped last week, so this is 2 weeks of tickets. ;) 17:24:31 <EvilBob> reattach post install and profit 17:24:37 <Khaytsus> nirik: ooh, that too 17:24:47 <nirik> cool. Glad you got things sorted with him EvilBob 17:25:04 <Khaytsus> nirik: Channel has been really hopping too, not just tickets 17:25:19 <nirik> ok, on to the next one... 17:25:23 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/89 17:25:24 <zodbot> nirik: #89 (#fedora-social.log, bad words) - irc-support-sig - Trac 17:25:38 <nirik> this is the social ticket that caused the poor spiral on the 26th. 17:25:43 * Khaytsus facepalms 17:25:50 <Khaytsus> Known problem user to start with.. 17:26:01 <Khaytsus> And um, the other user has been a problem for _years_ 17:26:13 <Khaytsus> The spiral, however, maybe could have been avoided 17:26:41 <nirik> yeah, I added comments/thoughts to the ticket 17:26:53 <Southern_Gentlem> user A was being his normal self then he PMs user B which tells user a to GFT 17:27:24 <Southern_Gentlem> User A takes Offense crys to jsmith and files ticket 17:27:31 <jsmith> Again, I think this is another case of one multiple people "piling on" a user that they found annoying 17:27:33 <nirik> I think one thing that could have avoided the blow up would have been NOT asking the user about the ticket... adding comments there and waiting for reply. Trying to force them to answer when they were hot about the issue in realtime was not ideal, imho. 17:28:06 <Khaytsus> Nothing post-pm here, so whatever the "spiral" was is undocumented in this ticket 17:28:11 <nirik> also, there is a language barrier. I have trouble parsing what they are saying a lot. ;( 17:28:17 <jsmith> nirik: Agreed 17:28:18 <EvilBob> I didn't ask the user about the ticket, the ticket was after tha fact 17:28:47 <EvilBob> I was trying to deal with the live situation as it happened 17:29:24 <EvilBob> Now the <ethnic> Mafia is coming to my house to get me. Because I asked 17:29:56 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: This is when he started asking for your IRL address? I'm still... not quite sure what that was about 17:30:10 <EvilBob> IMO the user moving on is the best possible resolution to the situation 17:30:10 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, I agree that their comments after that were also inapproprate, but I think they felt threatened because you were kicking/banning them for not answering you, when you could have just told them 'answer me in ticket when you cool down' 17:30:29 <EvilBob> nirik: No ticket existed 17:30:57 <EvilBob> I could not tell them to answer me in a ticket that did not exist 17:32:18 <Khaytsus> Boil the ocean over this one, or move on? :) 17:32:23 <nirik> EvilBob: Nov 26 12:52:48 <user> i have submitted a ticket for XXX then Nov 26 13:30:47 ◢✘◣ user was kicked by fedbot (Have it your way, EvilBob) 17:32:32 <nirik> there was a ticket at that time. 17:33:05 * EvilBob shrugs 17:33:25 <nirik> I think one of the advantages of the ticketing system is that it allows us to discuss out of band and hopefully when tempers have cooled. 17:33:30 <bodhi_zazen> o/ may I make a general comment on "spirals" in #fedora 17:33:40 <nirik> for example, freenode never discussed klines on irc. They require email/ticketing. 17:34:12 <nirik> bodhi_zazen: sure. 17:34:40 <bodhi_zazen> Well, we all know these people are trolling , so I hate to see abuse 17:34:47 <nirik> so where do we go here? what can we note/learn from it? any actions we can take to make it not happen again? 17:35:06 <bodhi_zazen> IMO better to ask them to move on and if necessary silence them for a while without reacting with personal insults 17:35:27 <bodhi_zazen> Sometimes it seems someone starts trolling, and then everyone jumps on the band wagon 17:36:15 <nirik> agreed. Being professional and not going down to trading insults is a very good idea. 17:36:22 <bodhi_zazen> The other day a troll was temporarily silenced, I thought that was both appropriate and very effective, without escalating the situation 17:37:00 <nirik> cool. 17:37:01 <jsmith> Sounds much more effective to me as well 17:37:03 <blloyd> A comment from a lowly user on the trolling issue: EvilBob obviously has admin privileges to kick somesome, but I have perceived him to be a troll. Feeding the trolls can be just as bad as trolling directly, and just as harmful to the channel. 17:37:19 * nirik finds the word 'troll' to be overused. 17:37:32 <jsmith> (and perhaps under-defined) 17:37:33 <EvilBob> nirik: Yeah talk about abuse... 17:37:39 <bodhi_zazen> blloyd: that is the problem with trading insults ^^ 17:37:46 <bodhi_zazen> It only makes everyone look bad 17:37:52 <blloyd> very true. 17:38:06 <bodhi_zazen> Polite requests to keep conversation on topic are better 17:38:11 <Sonar_Gal> ok can we continue with the meeting 17:38:14 <nirik> blloyd: a troll is someone who is making wild statements to get a negative reaction from other people. 17:38:36 <nirik> sure, so back to the meeting... any further thoughts on this ticket? 17:39:02 <EvilBob> Just wish lamah all the best where ever they end up 17:39:06 <jsmith> In the case of this particular ticket, it's hard to tell whether the person in question was trying to troll, or just had a language barrier 17:39:16 <jsmith> Either way, we could have handled the situation better 17:39:34 <jsmith> Let's move on, and try to do better next time 17:39:41 <EvilBob> jsmith: History with the user shows that they have been a "troll" and/or a "support vampire" for years 17:39:44 <nirik> I think it was a combo of language barrier + getting upset so that just made their language worse, which just made them more upset. 17:40:12 <jsmith> Anyhoo, that's all I have on this ticket 17:40:49 <nirik> #info close ticket pending anymore info or thoughts from reporter. 17:40:56 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/90 17:40:57 <zodbot> nirik: #90 (Friendly part of Fedora's byline could use work) - irc-support-sig - Trac 17:41:34 <nirik> this was a user who had a poor interaction in #fedora 17:41:45 <EvilBob> #fedora does not support Rawhide 17:41:54 <nirik> I think there are several ways this could have gone better. 17:42:03 <EvilBob> user did not like that answer so it devolved to " *sigh* - I see this channel is as friendly as ever" 17:42:07 <nirik> yes, so "We don't support rawhide here, please see #fedora-qa" 17:42:40 <nirik> instead of trying to get reasoning out of the user or the like. 17:43:15 * nirik notes also the digs in the ticket. 17:43:55 <nirik> so, I would suggest making sure we politely point rawhide folks to qa and not devolve into trading barbs with them. 17:44:13 <nirik> any other thoughts on this one? 17:45:01 <nirik> #info try and be more polite pointing rawhide users to #fedora-qa 17:45:21 <nirik> .ticket https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/91 17:45:21 <zodbot> nirik: Error: 'https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/91' is not a valid integer. 17:45:31 <nirik> oops. 17:45:38 <nirik> .ticket https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/91 17:45:38 <zodbot> nirik: Error: 'https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/91' is not a valid integer. 17:45:43 <nirik> weird. 17:45:56 <nirik> #91 17:45:56 <nirik> Vulgar and Derogatory Remarks in #fedora 17:46:22 <EvilBob> Get a rope, the user pissed me off and I cussed 17:46:23 <nirik> this was just added. 17:46:38 <EvilBob> Guilty as charged 17:47:05 <nirik> yeah, if you dont want to keep helping someone, do try and just politely say that... no need to get mad. ;) You could also employ /ignore. 17:47:23 <Khaytsus> beesu the recommended way to run GUI apps as root? 17:47:30 <Khaytsus> Used to be, eh, gtksudo or something? 17:47:57 <EvilBob> I did let them know I was done helping them, they continued for about a half hour complaining that I was not helping them 17:47:59 <Khaytsus> And didn't we used to have a shortcut to run Naut as root? Or am I imaginging that.. anywho 17:48:02 <nirik> Khaytsus: I think its: a) don't. b) if you must, sudo 17:48:17 <Khaytsus> nirik: Totally agree, but sudo fails badly I believe in this case 17:48:40 * jsmith uses sudo with livecd-iso-to-disk all the time 17:48:41 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: Honestly, as I stated and is in the log, I do not use sudo 17:48:47 <nirik> EvilBob: but perhaps /ignore would have been good? then you could have not seen it and gotten mad at it? or another person could have stepped in and asked them to stop. 17:49:08 <EvilBob> I do not know if sudo's use was causing the problem 17:49:10 <Khaytsus> Hmm, was thinking sudo the way it does envs and such... Anywho, so maybe sudo is fine 17:49:37 <EvilBob> that is why I gave very clear instructions what I needed the user to do to eliminate any extra points of failure 17:50:23 <EvilBob> [23:09:36] <EvilBob> so using "su" not "sudo" 17:50:23 <EvilBob> 28 [23:09:55] <rhl> i just did: sudo su - :P 17:50:23 <EvilBob> 29 [23:10:52] <EvilBob> I'm not a sudo user, I don't know the intricacies of it 17:51:20 <nirik> yeah, I think this all went as could be expected until the end. 17:51:24 <Khaytsus> The whole sudo su thing is the dumbest use of anything ever, but anywho 17:51:34 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: +1 17:51:42 <nirik> yes, 'sudo su' is pointless. 'sudo -i' is what you want. 17:51:46 <nirik> (if you want that) 17:51:47 <Khaytsus> yeah 17:51:58 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: it was a "I'll show you I'm right" show 17:52:00 * Khaytsus types sudo tcsh a few dozen times a day 17:52:02 <nirik> so, what can we learn here, or change? 17:52:05 <jsmith> Anyhoo, this ticket isn't *really* about "sudo" vs "su" -- it's about the way the person was treated 17:52:07 <nirik> ask EvilBob to take more breaks? 17:52:13 * nirik runs 17:52:41 <jsmith> I think it's "If you're feeling like helping a user is a waste of your time, kindly let them know and then step away" 17:53:09 <jsmith> Telling them to touch themselves isn't appropriate 17:53:10 <Khaytsus> jsmith: True, was trying to figure out what the right asnwer in the future should be, given this comes up frequently, but the ticket indeed has little to do with the technical issue. 17:53:22 <EvilBob> Yeah the way the person was treated, I should have filed the ticket over the user wasting my time and being... not excellent to me... 17:53:45 * Khaytsus pokes EvilBob 17:54:16 <jsmith> I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is appropriate behavior *ever*: [23:14:47] <EvilBob> Go manually stimulate yourself 17:54:33 <jsmith> We should all be more mature than that 17:54:38 <dwebb> haha 17:54:39 <EvilBob> jsmith: It's better than telling them to go fuck themselves 17:54:46 <Khaytsus> (again) 17:54:46 <jsmith> EvilBob: Only slightly 17:54:57 <nirik> jsmith: +1 17:55:07 <jsmith> Either way, we're here to help Fedora, not act like six-year-olds 17:55:11 <EvilBob> I already stated I was wrong 17:55:15 <nirik> if you get to the point that you are mad at someone, step away. 17:55:22 <nirik> anyhow, yeah. 17:55:36 <EvilBob> <EvilBob> Get a rope, the user pissed me off and I cussed 17:55:36 <EvilBob> <EvilBob> Guilty as charged 17:55:42 <dwebb> jsmith· that's what happens when someone feels frustrated and others in power aren't backing them up, instead just continue spoonfeeding the user thinking that they're "helping" 17:56:07 <Sonar_Gal> reason I stay out of fedora now a days 17:56:09 * Khaytsus hands EvilBob the naughty hat 17:56:24 * nirik is unable to parse dwebb's statement. 17:56:35 <nirik> this has 0 to do with spoonfeeding. 17:56:38 <dwebb> if a user can't get something after 3 full explanations, they should be pretty much ignored until they get a clue. 17:56:42 <EvilBob> jsmith: "we" may be here to help Fedora, others are only around to drag us through the latrine for doing so. 17:57:12 <nirik> dwebb: you are welcome to do so. Others are welcome to try and explain it to them in another way that might work for them... 17:57:18 <nirik> there's no absolute answer here. 17:57:27 <dwebb> nirik· maybe not the specific instance, but in general that's how it goes.. more spoonfeeding than not 17:57:37 <EvilBob> nirik: there is one absolute 17:57:46 * Khaytsus gets down the Absolut 17:57:47 * nirik also finds the term spoonfeeding stupid and overused and vuage. ;) 17:57:59 <bodhi_zazen> We all get frustrated sometimes, ask for help, ignore, tell the use you do not have any further advice ? 17:58:16 <bodhi_zazen> but *try* not to 'say" something you will regret later is all 17:58:18 <nirik> any of those, and/or point them to other resources. 17:58:22 <nirik> bodhi_zazen: +1 17:58:24 <EvilBob> nirik: the one absolute is that rhl will never have another positive experience with me again. Because there will be none... at all. 17:58:28 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: Just do like me, type it up then send it in -ops instead of the channel ;) 17:58:45 <Khaytsus> It's like the old method of writing down your true feelings then tearing up the paper. Gets it out of the system :) 17:58:46 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: Oh don't get me going there 17:59:03 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: Had to deal with that crap this week internally also 17:59:39 <dwebb> nirik· spoonfeeding (noun): giving exact commands, not teaching the user to think for themselves by showing them proper research and troubleshooting techniques so that they may help themselves and other members of the community in the future. 17:59:48 <dwebb> this is not done on large part. 17:59:53 <nirik> anyhow, on this ticket we all agree to try and be more professional when stepping away from a problem we no longer wish to help with. 18:00:11 <bodhi_zazen> nirik: perfect 18:00:34 * Khaytsus nods 18:00:40 <ElderDryas> Can I put my 2 cents worth in here on this subject? 18:00:59 <nirik> dwebb: then you (and many others) overuse the term. :) 18:01:04 <nirik> ElderDryas: sure thing. 18:01:41 <nirik> dwebb: and exact commands can sometimes be very handy for teaching if you also get them to look at output and explain or point to docs/resources as you go. 18:01:49 <ElderDryas> I'm wondering why the "powers that be" (ops or not), don't just back channel to let the person getting wound up that it's time to back off? 18:01:55 <dwebb> people are coming into a help channel for a few reasons: 1. whatever they've tried isn't providing the results they desire 2. they are there to learn by watching 3. they are there to help others learn help themselves 18:02:03 <dwebb> to name a few 18:02:17 <nirik> ElderDryas: yes, thats great if someone is active and sees things as they happen... 18:02:21 <bodhi_zazen> If you feel you are spoonfeeding, perhaps you should take a break or pass the user off, explain you are out of time, read http://foo.doc.com for details ? 18:02:34 <bodhi_zazen> Just take care not to come across as insulting 18:02:37 <dwebb> it's very frustrating watching people be led along, not taught proper research or troubleshooting techniques 18:02:39 <Khaytsus> ElderDryas: I think that's what we're trying to say here, if you're getting mad, just drop out of the convo. :) 18:03:03 <bodhi_zazen> I know from personal experience in #apache , it is frustrating when your web server is not running and you are not grapsing the man page 18:03:11 <bodhi_zazen> sometimes you need help 18:03:59 <nirik> right, sometimes the answer is "here's how you fix it now, and here's all the docs you should read as to why and did you understand what that did and why it fixed it" 18:04:02 <Khaytsus> bodhi_zazen: apache never mysteriously fails ;) 18:04:06 <dwebb> because of my past frustrations and indiscretions even my clear and logical concerns (shared by others as well) are totally overlooked. this bullshit with khaystus is never dropped, despite private and public attempts to do so 18:04:12 * Sonar_Guy thinks the horse died from the beating here! 18:04:20 <Khaytsus> Ocean's completely boiled 18:04:25 <nirik> #info we all agree to try and be more professional when stepping away from a problem we no longer wish to help with. 18:04:31 <nirik> #topic Open Floor 18:04:38 <nirik> Anyone have anything for open floor? 18:04:44 <dwebb> haha 18:05:01 <Khaytsus> Would this be the venue to ask about respins? 18:05:10 <nirik> dwebb: file a ticket about your concerns? 18:05:19 <dwebb> yea, "sure" 18:05:28 <dwebb> let's not deal with it.. 18:05:45 <Khaytsus> The /var thing has bitten a few people, I haven't looked at BZ but if that's been fixed it might be a good thing to respin for, although...... it's probably only an upgrade problem, we don't respin the Install do we.. only live.. 18:05:54 <nirik> ok, I have no idea what you are talking about, but fine with me. 18:06:00 <dwebb> let's talk about ponies instead, even though all the parties are right here now in this very appropriate live forum 18:06:02 <nirik> Khaytsus: ask Southern_Gentlem 18:06:22 <nirik> dwebb: ok, bring up whatever now then, fine with me? 18:06:36 <Khaytsus> yeah, probably best.. I know in the past there's been methods to call a web-hosted anaconda or such, that might do it too.. not sure.. 18:07:03 <Khaytsus> I'll have to look in that BZ. I've seen at least 3 people with that issue in the last few weeks. 18:07:13 <dwebb> i've tried to be civil with Khaytsus in the past in private and semi-publicly in fedora-ops to drop whatever issue he has with me. it's been completely refused. 18:07:20 <Khaytsus> Of course 3 people with separate /var getting on irc.. Technical stuff.. might be the ONLY 3 with it.. but who knows 18:07:24 <dwebb> so we roil on.. 18:07:53 <nirik> perhaps you could just put each other on ignore if you can't work out your conflicts? 18:08:02 <Southern_Gentlem> Khaytsus, i am planning on releasing updated f16 livecds on 20111208 18:08:21 <dwebb> while i don't take his "go kill yourself with a 9mm" threat seriously from the other day, it's still a continuing issue 18:08:40 <blloyd> I am curious: I have seen multiple people mention it is open source, just open read the source as a way to get the information. While it's available, I doubt every user will ever be able to do that. Is that used as a shut up or do you actually expect all users to be programmers? 18:08:52 <Khaytsus> Southern_Gentlem: Yeah the more I thought about it, it's an upgrade problem I'm thinking of, Live's won't fix it. I'm sure they'll fix other things though. 18:09:17 <dwebb> is that the kind of thing that is tolerated by someone who is supposed to be a mediator? not dropping issues and making those types of comments? 18:09:20 <Southern_Gentlem> /var issue in in the commonbugs 18:09:31 <Khaytsus> nirik: Already done on my end. Someone else will have to police him in #fedora, it's the only reason I had not yet ignored his new nick. 18:09:35 <EvilBob> blloyd: The "Open Source Cop Out" 18:09:47 <Sonar_Guy> can we focus on one thing at a time, I think dwebb was up first! 18:09:52 <Khaytsus> Southern_Gentlem: Yeah, the /var issue.. I think it only affecst upgrades, as it can't find the rpm db of an existing install 18:10:12 <dwebb> Sonar_Guy· don't worry, i'm sure it'll jsut be swept under the carpet again. 18:10:42 <EvilBob> blloyd: When a programmer or other developer as done a piss job at writing the app or taking criticism they respond with "Patches Welcome" 18:10:46 <dwebb> and no /ignore is not the solution.. only a bandaid.. the behavior will continue, it'll just have a new face next time because Khaytsus isn't being addressed 18:10:52 <nirik> dwebb: If they have an issue with you, they should at least ignore you/not mediate anything with you. If they agree to that, does that "solve" this issue? 18:11:31 <dwebb> nope, it allows someone with that type of attitude to continue in a position of power 18:11:34 <dwebb> inappropriate 18:11:45 <nirik> 'type of attitude' ? 18:11:56 <EvilBob> blloyd: We see this a lot. It is basically as you describe "I'm better than you because you don't program" 18:11:58 <dwebb> i don't know what his issue is with me, my only one with him is never seeming to just "let it go" 18:12:05 <blloyd> I've seen it a lot since I started lurking here again. I can read the source, but we are talking man months sometimes for some things. I can't do it for everything.... Nor could anyone. 18:12:26 <blloyd> EvilBob: Start looking, there are accepted commits from me used in Fedora. 18:12:28 <dwebb> nirik· yes, that type of attitude. 18:12:34 <Khaytsus> While I clearly have opsec on ignore, and will continue to do so, I'd like to just say that if he'd quit trolling 99% of the time none of this would have ever happened. 18:12:43 <EvilBob> blloyd: Great 18:13:00 <blloyd> Doesn't mean I want to read every line of source in this creation. :) 18:13:08 <nirik> blloyd: the other advantage is that other people can read the source and document and tell you what is means/how it works. ;) 18:13:17 <dwebb> nirik· i know you're intelligent and i also know you've probably lost all patience and any respect for anything positive i've done here. which is one reason my concerns are so easily dismissed. 18:13:41 <EvilBob> blloyd: I don't need to start looking because I don't care. I'm just explaining the phenomenon 18:13:42 <Khaytsus> It's not as if I have some inherent distaste for him or any other reason. It's persistent, insistent trolling that's been ongoing for years. Gets old. And had not yet ignored him because I wanted to be able to police him, like any othe user, in #fedora. Someone else can do that, he'll stay on ignore. 18:13:48 <Khaytsus> Until he changes nicks again I suppose. 18:14:09 <nirik> dwebb: I don't want to dismiss your concerns, but I think both you and Khaytsus are at fault, so I personally don't see any easy answer aside from both of you ignoring each other. 18:14:23 <Khaytsus> nirik: Yep, and done on my end :) 18:14:37 <dwebb> yes, "trolling" another over used term. and since day one when neither i nor Khaytsus was an op there was immediate tension. 18:14:40 <Khaytsus> I ignored him as opsec, I had not yet ignored this new nick. 18:14:44 <Khaytsus> (reasons above) 18:14:46 * Sonar_Gal misses the way the old #fedora chatroom was. This meeting has basically turned into a joke. I'm off 18:14:58 <EvilBob> ;) 18:15:16 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: they got what they wanted 18:15:21 <dwebb> nirik· it's childish that any op should "ignore" anyone 18:15:39 * nirik notes this meeting is whoever contibutes to it, sorry if the people you don't like are speaking the most. 18:15:47 <dwebb> it shows a real lack of personal responsibility and self control in my opinion 18:16:04 * nirik notes we are 15minutes over and not getting anywhere. unless someone has suggestions/actions. 18:16:07 <Khaytsus> There's cliques in every social grouping.. 18:16:08 <EvilBob> Pot! 18:16:12 <EvilBob> Kettle! 18:16:15 <EvilBob> Pot! 18:16:15 <dwebb> "i'm done" can't even talk about concerns as an adult, make peace and move on. 18:16:19 <nirik> dwebb: I mentally ignore some people. My actual ignore list is 0. 18:16:36 <dwebb> yes, that's the way an op should be. 18:17:00 <Khaytsus> nirik: Have those too ;) Mainly the ones that need policing but are annoying at the same time. Part of the "job" 18:17:20 * nirik will end the meeting in a minute unless concrete proposals for action or the like are proposed. 18:17:38 <dwebb> as expected. 18:17:53 <dwebb> Khaytsus· doesn't want to deal with it so "moving on" 18:18:10 <EvilBob> dwebb: It's not so simple 18:18:17 <dwebb> indeed it is. 18:18:44 <dwebb> he's not interested in just burying it and wiping the slate clean with a new agreement 18:19:01 <dwebb> more just "fuck you, i'm an op!" 18:19:01 <EvilBob> Its more a fact that most of us even your friends don't want to deal with you so we move on, smile and shake our heads as we walk away. 18:19:40 <dwebb> those aren't friends. 18:20:23 <nirik> #endmeeting

1 0

[irc-support-sig] #84: Thanks to EvilBob for support and humor.
by fedora-badges 01 Dec '11

01 Dec '11

#84: Thanks to EvilBob for support and humor. --------------------------+------------------------------------------------- Reporter: ryanfourtysix | Owner: Type: feedback | Status: new Priority: major | Milestone: Fedora 16 Version: | Severity: Neutral Keywords: | --------------------------+------------------------------------------------- Thanks to EvilBob for support and humor. -- Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/84> irc-support-sig <irc://irc.freenode.net/#fedora> Feedback and tracking of issues for the folks who try and improve support in #fedora on irc.freenode.net

1 1

[irc-support-sig] #85: bodhi_zazen was very patient and helpful today.
by fedora-badges 01 Dec '11

01 Dec '11

#85: bodhi_zazen was very patient and helpful today. --------------------------+------------------------------------------------- Reporter: ryanfourtysix | Owner: Type: feedback | Status: new Priority: major | Milestone: Fedora 16 Version: | Severity: Neutral Keywords: Thanks | --------------------------+------------------------------------------------- Please fill in this template fully and provide all requested information. Incomplete tickets may be dropped. This feedback is: {{{ [x] Positive [ ] Negative [ ] Neutral }}} My IRC nick is: _ryan_46 _____ Please briefly describe the interaction that caused you to file this ticket: Basically had questions about the health of one Fc16 install. Please note other IRC nicks that are involved in this interaction: Please describe what action or positive change could be adopted based on this feedback: Conclusion that my concern was overheld and it did not need tinkering with. Any additional notes or logs: Thanks for your feedback! -- Ticket URL: <https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/85> irc-support-sig <irc://irc.freenode.net/#fedora> Feedback and tracking of issues for the folks who try and improve support in #fedora on irc.freenode.net

1 2

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

irc-support-sig December 2011