Michael Catanzaro píše v Út 02. 05. 2017 v 19:32 -0500:
Hi,
Wow, nice list! Thanks for putting this together. A few comments/complaints from me:
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Jiri Eischmann eischmann@redhat.com wrote:
UPDATES Quite a few people complained about having to restart to install updates. I know objective reasons for this, but it's important to understand that it's perceived as annoying by users and we should strive for minimizing the number of packages that need to be updated offline.
First priority should be to fix our update frequency. Currently the policy is this:
* Daily notifications of available security updates * Daily notifications of all flatpak updates (no restart required, but still annoying) * Weekly notifications of other (normal) updates
I'd be interested in seeing statistics on how frequently we have security updates, but my guess is that there is a new security update every 2-3 days, so in practice we prompt users to reboot 2-3 times per week. Maybe even more? I have not been keeping track.
Problem is: most security updates are not high-priority. We do need daily notification for the most serious security updates, but the vast majority of security updates do not require expedited release. Our updates already have metadata to indicate the severity of the security issue (low/medium/high), so we should start notifying daily only for the high priority security updates and see how well that goes.
We also do not need weekly notifications of normal updates. Let's dial this back to monthly instead. With these changes, I expect we would have an order of magnitude fewer reboots.
Even the nightly flatpak apps need to not trigger daily notifications. These should either be updated monthly like everything else, or updated silently in the background (because why not?)
It'd be worth to analyze more. I'm not sure there is one size that fits all needs. There are certainly users (my mom for instance) who just use Fedora and don't care about updates at all, so for them the best are updates as least frequent as possible as long as we keep them safe. Then there is a group of people who welcome daily updates, but don't want to go through the hassle of restarting for them. And I also often hear that people miss automatic updates of Flatpaks because if you use a couple of nightly versions, manual updating every day is just tiresome.
UPGRADES One of the most frequent request was an LTS version. When I asked why, the answer was typically that upgrades still bring incompatibilities, regressions, lost settings. The most frequently mentioned offender was NM, other mentioned problems were mostly hardware related (regressions in graphics, dockin station support, sound).
Well the LTS is definitely CentOS. There seems to be little value in us trying to compete with ourselves by offering a second LTS. I don't know how to make this more clear to users.
Well, I think we have consensus here. The solution should not be Fedora LTS. There are deployments where Fedora is not simply suitable and we should just recommend RHEL/CentOS as the LTS version. Upgrades of Fedora have improved a lot in the recent years, but apparently they're not still on the level at which users feel comfortable just upgrading instead of using LTS. I'd like to look at the NM problems, I've never had a problem with it, but NM losing settings etc. after upgrading was really one of the most frequent complaints.
- Some extensions make the Shell crash.
Well that's the result of turning off the version checks. There's no way to avoid this without removing support for extensions entirely, or requiring extension authors to validate compatibility. We decided to get rid of that step, so more crashes are to be expected.
What we should probably do is have a mechanism for flagging extensions as broken, so that they can be removed from extensions.gnome.org until they are fixed.
- You have to restart to switch from GNOME Classic to GNOME
(perhaps a bug in F25?).
Definitely a bug of some sort.
WAYLAND Not really big surprises here:
- Missing remote desktop (one of the most frequent comments at
all).
- Missing color picker support.
There's no color picker...? Why not? That seems really weird. This is GtkColorChooser? I'm trying it right now, via GtkWidgetFactory, and it's working perfectly fine. Is this maybe some third-party application that's broken?
What they meant was the color picker which allows you to pick a color of a random pixel on the screen like in GIMP. That's not possible with Wayland AFAIK.
LOCALIZATION Users don't get a fully localized system after installing Fedora. Many languages don't have all l10n packages on the installation ISO and users have to run 'sudo dnf install langpacks-*' manually to install missing packages, but most users don't have a clue about this and just think that the missing localization is not in Fedora at all. Mainly LibreOffice suffers from this not being localized at all. This is a long known problem and we should really fix it and install the missing packages automatically either during installation or in the initial experience.
All supported languages need to be on the installation ISO, even if it makes the ISO twice as large. Non-English locales like Czech should not be second-class citizens in Fedora. We should fix this. A larger ISO would be unfortunate for users stuck on metered connections, but this is something you only have to download once.
I've been an ambassador for EMEA and I know how big problem this is for people in developing countries. They're often stuck with connections like <=1 Mbps. Having an ISO that is 3-4 GB in size could actually make them download another distro instead. Ubuntu also downloads the l10n packages post-install.
There have been a couple of other complaints about locatization, everything language specific. But localization seems to be very important to users and they're very sensitive to untranslated pieces of UI, especially if it's what's perceived as part of the system, it makes the system look amateurish.
On the other hand, it's not our job to provide a good translation into every language for every app. Hopefully the Czech-speaking community can step up to help the Fedora and GNOME translation project. I know that GNOME at least has a very active Czech translator, Marek; he would probably like to hear specific feedback.
PDF Many complaints about PDF support, mostly:
- Evince doesn't support non-ascii characters in PDF forms, this is
a major problem for many people.
- Some PDF forms refuse to work with anything but Acrobat Reader
although they may work just fine with Evince, faking a reader's identity might be a solution here.
- Incomplete support for PDF 1.7.
One problem here is that some PDFs use Adobe JavaScript. 99% of these PDFs are malicious and use it to install Windows viruses, but some of them are legit. Evince does not support JavaScript. (And frankly, that's probably for the better.) I don't know how many PDFs this affects.
- Firefox should have tabs integrated into the title bar just like
on Window.
We should ship with Epiphany preinstalled. Firefox on GNOME is such a joke. How many months was the GNOME integration theme broken last year? ;)
- Cannot connect to GOA accounts after log out and log in to the
account (it's a known systemd bug, but a pretty annoying one and we have had it for several releases already).
This is an accepted F26 blocker, so it's going to get fixed one way or another.
BUG HANDLING A couple of users complained that bug reports in RHBZ get ignored which discourages them to report problems.
We must close all GNOME packages to bug reports. GNOME problems just have to be reported upstream. We can't handle the volume on Red Hat Bugzilla, which half the relevant maintainers do not check.
We also need to do some major, major work on ABRT client-side, maybe even rewrite the client side app from scratch.
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