hi all First and foremost, this is going to be a long email, so if you don't have time, save it for another day. This is not going to be a rant, I've posted enough of those. I'm beginning to wonder whether I'm the cause of the negative perceptions blind people have about linux accessibility. I switched to linux 5 years ago in august of 2011, and ever since then I've been advocating for it's use. I seem to have gotten very little in the way of interest. I'm beginning to wonder if it's my attitude that's driving people away. I'm blind, and so I depend on assistive software to use my computer. Because of that, I take a harsh view of products or software that is not designed to be accessible, at least to some degree. You'll often find me on irc ranting about some manufacturer or other because they didn't design their ... oh, coffee maker, microwave, smart phone, etc to be usable by a blind person. I used to think I had good reason for this, because the blase answer I'd get from companies when I asked why they didn't design their products for use by the blind were usually something like "meh, most of our consumers (they love that word) can see, so it's just not worth the effort." Nothing gets me on my soap box faster. It's as if you're saying to me"there aren't enough of you, so deal. We're sorry you're blind, but go to your local government agency for a special device." It's what drew me to linux. An open source operating system that anyone could improve. Anyone meaning me. Wonderful idea. And yet the attitude is all over the place hear. Sighted developers who make applications tend to have similar responses, although instead of "we don't care" it's "we don't know how the accessibility stack works" This is sometimes followed by implications that windows or apple is so much easier, but I'll skip that whole rant. That also gets me on my soap box. The urge to improve the software to make it accessible conflicts with my very strong one to yell at them for not understanding the basic fact. To whit, I need accessibility. If I don't have it, I can't use their program, period. I've lost my temper a few times on this list and on others because I'll eventually get to a point where I just can't hold it back anymore. Usually this comes after a long stint of bug filing, or listening to the "accessibility developers are limited" reasons for why bugs linger. I'll touch on that later. That's not how I should be. I need help from people who, although you guys fight occasionally (I've seen some heated ones hear) you manage to get along. I have trouble with that. I became a member of fedora because you guys care about free as in freedom software, and you really care about accessibility, something not all linux communities do care about. I came because a lot of the gnome developers are hear, and I want to make gnome as accessible a desktop as I can. This is where the limited accessibility resources come in. I'm well aware of that. It's why I took on filing bugs for the gnome, mate and cinnamon desktops, to try and help. But to be blunt, I'm utterly sick of hearing the old "we don't understand the accessibility stack" reason to simply let bugs linger. I want to fix it. But the right way, instead of ranting which is my first urge, because that accomplishes nothing. What is hard about the atk/at-spi stack? Is it complex? Is it lack of documentation? My goals for linux are to make it better. I've heard things like "it will take a big influx of money from some company to make any real progress in linux a11y." I flat out do not believe it. It may help, but it's not critical. Plus, the idea of having to tell a company reasons why they should care about accessibility turns my stomach. They shouldn't need an incentive, they should simply do it because people need it. I need help. I need some ideas on how to make developers want to improve accessibility,rather than making them feel obligated to fix them, which I understand it usually disinclines them to do much of anything. I may have to get over my "you have to make your thing accessible" attitude, which is part of what I need help with. I do think products should be made accessible, but saber rattling (which is what most of the blind organizations like to do) has short term results but often makes developers not want to help. "They'll just sue me if I don't make it accessible, so why should I bother" is another response, although blind organizations focus nearly exclusively on windows and apple, so a linux developer has never said this. I seem to have the right ideas, making linux better, but I'm wondering if I'm going about it the wrong way. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in windows or apple, my focus is strictly on linux accessibility, although that doesn't mean I'm hostile to windows developers either. I try to be curteous, only slipping up if we get into a "my OS is better than yours" fight, which thankfully is rare. I seem to be fighting an unwinnable battle. I want more accessibility developers. I want community help. People who don't need orca or magnification using it every once in a while to navigate the apps they use, which might be different than the ones I use, to fix accessibility problems. I want more accessibility developers not because the ones we have aren't good (they're amazing) but because there's just too much that needs to be done for them to handle it all. And yet we go back to the incentive thing. "why should I care about linux when people use windows or mac. I'll focus on that" "no one cares about open source it's all about the money" "I'm not blind so I don't need it" Nothing pushes my buttons faster than those kinds of comments, although the I don't need it comment isn't too bad. I can't think like a business person. I think in terms of how usable a piece of software or hardware is. Not in profit margins, market share, public relations, etc so the very idea of trying to convince someone to care about something that is absolutely essential to me is ... I can't process it. Google is one example. I'll shorten the whole chrome rant, but it's a prime example. Here's a company that makes it's money off of linux and open source. This company is saying "yeah we really should make a native atk and at-spi interface in chrome so orca can navigate it, but that's just too much work, so hear. Install our chromevox addon which, by the way only works with our special text to speech voice to navigate the web." It goes back to the idea that blind people can't use the same software as everyone else. Back in the eighties and nineties this was the thing to do. You're blind, you need a several thousand dollar device to do basic things like use a calculator, make notes, keep a calendar, etc. Now for the most part we can use the same software other people use. Which is why I have the firm belief that an application should be usable with whatever screen reader the user has set up, with their voice settings. The idea of having to install an addon just to be able to use an application just doesn't sit well with me. This would be midigated somewhat if those apps that did this would autodetect when accessibility is enabled on whatever platform you're on and autoinstall it, but they don't. My whole thing against chrome isn't because it's nonfree software (although I don't like that much) but because of the addon thing. For some reason, addons that improve accessibility are completely ok, but having to install one in order to use something isn't. Is that wrong? Am I the cause of all the "linux isn't accessible" stuff I hear parroted by the blind people who don't use it that I come into contact with? I had a very near miss with windows 10 this past december. I became so discouraged by the amount of work I have to do to keep linux accessibility working that I nearly switched. Fortunately linux is just ... it's the community, as well as the amount of stuff I can do with it for free and all of it open source that kept me hear. So I'm determined to make a new start. What can I do better? Is my passion for linux wrong? I seem to get into fights with windows or apple users a lot, and somehow they happen out of the blue. One minute I mention casually that I use linux, and the next i'm defending linux against attack. They usually end with me throwing down the gauntlet and thinking in my head at least "fine! I'll show you. I'll make linux more accessible than your apple and prove to you that open source is usable and viable." I'm so confused I don't know whether that's the right way to handle things or not. It's why I've been kind of silent in the fedora community lately. My passion hasn't dimmed, but I've been trying to avoid getting into situations where I'll yell at well meaning people. I'll close with this. I need as much help as you guys can give me to be a better community member. Am I asking too much when I ask gnome developers, or application developers for that matter to use a screen reader or magnifier with their application before release to catch accessibility bugs? It seems reasonable to me, but maybe I'm off? And to mathias as well. I sincerely apologize for my tone in that last email. I was at one of my discouragement points,where the amount of work seemed overwhelming. It's why I'm asking for help.
Thanks for reading Kendell Clark
Kendell, its past midnight by me, and I am exhausted, so I'm not gonna reply to everything you said.
That being said, I did want to answer the subject question: no, you're not a bad community member.
I didn't see this last email where you apparently blew up at someone, but I have seen other emails you've written. While those emails may have had a tone of annoyance to them, you usually made good points. You're right, the accessibility stack could probably use some work.
As far as why it doesn't get more attention.. This is just my opinion, but to be blunt? Probably because people don't think about it. Unless you have a developer who works with blind users regularly, or is blind themselves, I could very easily see them not thinking about testing the handicap accessibility of their application. They'll worry about the user experience, the interface, the performance, etc. Why? Because those are things that THEY experience and think about it. They don't use screen readers, therefore it's not something they'll think about.
Doesn't make it right, just makes it reality (again, my opinion).
Does pointing it out make you a bad community member? No. Accessibility is important, and it deserves more respect and thought. Maybe you did lash out in some email, alright, fine. Find me one person on this list that HASN'T lashed out at one point or another. It doesn't make you a bad member of the community.
-Eric G
P.S. tried to format this email in a way that your screen reader wouldn't trip up on-- avoiding acronyms, skipping apostrophes, slang, etc. Let me know how it turned out. On Feb 24, 2016 00:54, "kendell clark" coffeekingms@gmail.com wrote:
hi all First and foremost, this is going to be a long email, so if you don't have time, save it for another day. This is not going to be a rant, I've posted enough of those. I'm beginning to wonder whether I'm the cause of the negative perceptions blind people have about linux accessibility. I switched to linux 5 years ago in august of 2011, and ever since then I've been advocating for it's use. I seem to have gotten very little in the way of interest. I'm beginning to wonder if it's my attitude that's driving people away. I'm blind, and so I depend on assistive software to use my computer. Because of that, I take a harsh view of products or software that is not designed to be accessible, at least to some degree. You'll often find me on irc ranting about some manufacturer or other because they didn't design their ... oh, coffee maker, microwave, smart phone, etc to be usable by a blind person. I used to think I had good reason for this, because the blase answer I'd get from companies when I asked why they didn't design their products for use by the blind were usually something like "meh, most of our consumers (they love that word) can see, so it's just not worth the effort." Nothing gets me on my soap box faster. It's as if you're saying to me"there aren't enough of you, so deal. We're sorry you're blind, but go to your local government agency for a special device." It's what drew me to linux. An open source operating system that anyone could improve. Anyone meaning me. Wonderful idea. And yet the attitude is all over the place hear. Sighted developers who make applications tend to have similar responses, although instead of "we don't care" it's "we don't know how the accessibility stack works" This is sometimes followed by implications that windows or apple is so much easier, but I'll skip that whole rant. That also gets me on my soap box. The urge to improve the software to make it accessible conflicts with my very strong one to yell at them for not understanding the basic fact. To whit, I need accessibility. If I don't have it, I can't use their program, period. I've lost my temper a few times on this list and on others because I'll eventually get to a point where I just can't hold it back anymore. Usually this comes after a long stint of bug filing, or listening to the "accessibility developers are limited" reasons for why bugs linger. I'll touch on that later. That's not how I should be. I need help from people who, although you guys fight occasionally (I've seen some heated ones hear) you manage to get along. I have trouble with that. I became a member of fedora because you guys care about free as in freedom software, and you really care about accessibility, something not all linux communities do care about. I came because a lot of the gnome developers are hear, and I want to make gnome as accessible a desktop as I can. This is where the limited accessibility resources come in. I'm well aware of that. It's why I took on filing bugs for the gnome, mate and cinnamon desktops, to try and help. But to be blunt, I'm utterly sick of hearing the old "we don't understand the accessibility stack" reason to simply let bugs linger. I want to fix it. But the right way, instead of ranting which is my first urge, because that accomplishes nothing. What is hard about the atk/at-spi stack? Is it complex? Is it lack of documentation? My goals for linux are to make it better. I've heard things like "it will take a big influx of money from some company to make any real progress in linux a11y." I flat out do not believe it. It may help, but it's not critical. Plus, the idea of having to tell a company reasons why they should care about accessibility turns my stomach. They shouldn't need an incentive, they should simply do it because people need it. I need help. I need some ideas on how to make developers want to improve accessibility,rather than making them feel obligated to fix them, which I understand it usually disinclines them to do much of anything. I may have to get over my "you have to make your thing accessible" attitude, which is part of what I need help with. I do think products should be made accessible, but saber rattling (which is what most of the blind organizations like to do) has short term results but often makes developers not want to help. "They'll just sue me if I don't make it accessible, so why should I bother" is another response, although blind organizations focus nearly exclusively on windows and apple, so a linux developer has never said this. I seem to have the right ideas, making linux better, but I'm wondering if I'm going about it the wrong way. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in windows or apple, my focus is strictly on linux accessibility, although that doesn't mean I'm hostile to windows developers either. I try to be curteous, only slipping up if we get into a "my OS is better than yours" fight, which thankfully is rare. I seem to be fighting an unwinnable battle. I want more accessibility developers. I want community help. People who don't need orca or magnification using it every once in a while to navigate the apps they use, which might be different than the ones I use, to fix accessibility problems. I want more accessibility developers not because the ones we have aren't good (they're amazing) but because there's just too much that needs to be done for them to handle it all. And yet we go back to the incentive thing. "why should I care about linux when people use windows or mac. I'll focus on that" "no one cares about open source it's all about the money" "I'm not blind so I don't need it" Nothing pushes my buttons faster than those kinds of comments, although the I don't need it comment isn't too bad. I can't think like a business person. I think in terms of how usable a piece of software or hardware is. Not in profit margins, market share, public relations, etc so the very idea of trying to convince someone to care about something that is absolutely essential to me is ... I can't process it. Google is one example. I'll shorten the whole chrome rant, but it's a prime example. Here's a company that makes it's money off of linux and open source. This company is saying "yeah we really should make a native atk and at-spi interface in chrome so orca can navigate it, but that's just too much work, so hear. Install our chromevox addon which, by the way only works with our special text to speech voice to navigate the web." It goes back to the idea that blind people can't use the same software as everyone else. Back in the eighties and nineties this was the thing to do. You're blind, you need a several thousand dollar device to do basic things like use a calculator, make notes, keep a calendar, etc. Now for the most part we can use the same software other people use. Which is why I have the firm belief that an application should be usable with whatever screen reader the user has set up, with their voice settings. The idea of having to install an addon just to be able to use an application just doesn't sit well with me. This would be midigated somewhat if those apps that did this would autodetect when accessibility is enabled on whatever platform you're on and autoinstall it, but they don't. My whole thing against chrome isn't because it's nonfree software (although I don't like that much) but because of the addon thing. For some reason, addons that improve accessibility are completely ok, but having to install one in order to use something isn't. Is that wrong? Am I the cause of all the "linux isn't accessible" stuff I hear parroted by the blind people who don't use it that I come into contact with? I had a very near miss with windows 10 this past december. I became so discouraged by the amount of work I have to do to keep linux accessibility working that I nearly switched. Fortunately linux is just ... it's the community, as well as the amount of stuff I can do with it for free and all of it open source that kept me hear. So I'm determined to make a new start. What can I do better? Is my passion for linux wrong? I seem to get into fights with windows or apple users a lot, and somehow they happen out of the blue. One minute I mention casually that I use linux, and the next i'm defending linux against attack. They usually end with me throwing down the gauntlet and thinking in my head at least "fine! I'll show you. I'll make linux more accessible than your apple and prove to you that open source is usable and viable." I'm so confused I don't know whether that's the right way to handle things or not. It's why I've been kind of silent in the fedora community lately. My passion hasn't dimmed, but I've been trying to avoid getting into situations where I'll yell at well meaning people. I'll close with this. I need as much help as you guys can give me to be a better community member. Am I asking too much when I ask gnome developers, or application developers for that matter to use a screen reader or magnifier with their application before release to catch accessibility bugs? It seems reasonable to me, but maybe I'm off? And to mathias as well. I sincerely apologize for my tone in that last email. I was at one of my discouragement points,where the amount of work seemed overwhelming. It's why I'm asking for help.
Thanks for reading Kendell Clark -- desktop mailing list desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org http://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Eric Griffith -
kendell clark